Bolton: Trump Tied Ukraine Aid to Inquiries He Sought

dandyfopp

Trump Tied Ukraine Aid to Inquiries He Sought, Bolton Book Says

Drafts of the book outline the potential testimony of the former national security adviser if he were called as a witness in the president’s impeachment trial.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/26/us/politics/trump-bolton-book-ukraine.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

  • Jan. 26, 2020Updated 7:08 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON — President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

The president’s statement as described by Mr. Bolton could undercut a key element of his impeachment defense: that the holdup in aid was separate from Mr. Trump’s requests that Ukraine announce investigations into his perceived enemies, including former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son Hunter Biden, who had worked for a Ukrainian energy firm while his father was in office.

Mr. Bolton’s explosive account of the matter at the center of Mr. Trump’s impeachment trial, the third in American history, was included in drafts of a manuscript he has circulated in recent weeks to close associates. He also sent a draft to the White House for a standard review process for some current and former administration officials who write books.

Multiple people described Mr. Bolton’s account of the Ukraine affair.

The book presents an outline of what Mr. Bolton might testify to if he is called as a witness in the Senate impeachment trial, the people said. The White House could use the pre-publication review process, which has no set time frame, to delay or even kill the book’s publication or omit key passages.

Over dozens of pages, Mr. Bolton described how the Ukraine affair unfolded over several months until he departed the White House in September. He described not only the president’s private disparagement of Ukraine but also new details about senior cabinet officials who have publicly tried to sidestep involvement.

For example, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo acknowledged privately that there was no basis to claims by the president’s lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani that the ambassador to Ukraine was corrupt and believed Mr. Giuliani may have been acting on behalf of other clients, Mr. Bolton wrote.


Mr. Bolton also said that after the president’s July phone call with the president of Ukraine, he raised with Attorney General William P. Barr his concerns about Mr. Giuliani, who was pursuing a shadow Ukraine policy encouraged by the president, and told Mr. Barr that the president had mentioned him on the call. A spokeswoman for Mr. Barr denied that he learned of the call from Mr. Bolton; the Justice Department has said he learned about itonly in mid-August.

And the acting White House chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, was present for at least one phone call where the president and Mr. Giuliani discussed the ambassador, Mr. Bolton wrote. Mr. Mulvaney has told associates he would always step away when the president spoke with his lawyer to protect their attorney-client privilege.


During a previously reported May 23 meeting where top advisers and Senator Ron Johnson, Republican of Wisconsin, briefed him about their trip to Kyiv for the inauguration of President Volodymyr Zelensky, Mr. Trump railed about Ukraine trying to damage him and mentioned a conspiracy theory about a hacked Democratic server, according to Mr. Bolton.

Charles J. Cooper, a lawyer for Mr. Bolton, declined to comment. The White House did not provide responses to questions about Mr. Bolton’s assertions, and representatives for Mr. Johnson, Mr. Pompeo and Mr. Mulvaney did not respond to emails and calls seeking comment on Sunday afternoon.

Mr. Bolton’s submission of the book to the White House may have given the White House lawyers direct insight into what Mr. Bolton would say if he were called to testify at Mr. Trump’s impeachment trial. It also intensified concerns among some of his advisers that they needed to block Mr. Bolton from testifying, according to two people familiar with their concerns.

The White House has ordered Mr. Bolton and other key officials with firsthand knowledge of Mr. Trump’s dealings not to cooperatewith the impeachment inquiry. Mr. Bolton said in a statement this month that he would testify if subpoenaed.


In recent days, some White House officials have described Mr. Bolton as a disgruntled former employee, and have said he took notes that he should have left behind when he departed the administration.

Mr. Trump told reporters last week that he did not want Mr. Bolton to testify and said that even if he simply spoke out publicly, he could damage national security.

“The problem with John is it’s a national security problem,” Mr. Trump said at a news conference in Davos, Switzerland. “He knows some of my thoughts. He knows what I think about leaders. What happens if he reveals what I think about a certain leader and it’s not very positive?”

“It’s going to make the job very hard,” he added.

The Senate impeachment trial could end as early as Friday without witness testimony. Democrats in both the House and Senate have pressed for weeks to include any new witnesses and documents that did not surface during the House impeachment hearings to be fair, focusing on persuading the handful of Republican senators they would need to join them to succeed.


But a week into the trial, most lawmakers say the chances of 51 senators agreeing to call witnesses are dwindling, not growing.

Mr. Bolton would like to testify for several reasons, according to associates. He believes he has relevant information, and he has also expressed concern that if his account of the Ukraine affair emerges only after the trial, he will be accused of holding back to increase his book sales.

Mr. Bolton, 71, a fixture in conservative national security circles since his days in the Reagan administration, joined the White House in 2018 after several people recommended him to the president, including the Republican megadonor Sheldon Adelson.

But Mr. Bolton and Mr. Trump soured on each other over several global crises, including Iranian aggression, Mr. Trump’s posture toward Russia and, ultimately, the Ukraine matter. Mr. Bolton was also often at odds with Mr. Pompeo and Mr. Mulvaney throughout his time in the administration.


Key to Mr. Bolton’s account about Ukraine is an exchange during a meeting in August with the president after Mr. Trump returned from vacation at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J. Mr. Bolton raised the $391 million in congressionally appropriated assistance to Ukraine for its war in the country’s east against Russian-backed separatists. Officials had frozen the aid, and a deadline was looming to begin sending it to Kyiv, Mr. Bolton noted.

He, Mr. Pompeo and Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper had collectively pressed the president about releasing the aid nearly a dozen times in the preceding weeks after lower-level officials who worked on Ukraine issues began complaining about the holdup, Mr. Bolton wrote. Mr. Trump had effectively rebuffed them, airing his longstanding grievances about Ukraine, which mixed legitimate efforts by some Ukrainians to back his Democratic 2016 opponent, Hillary Clinton, with unsupported accusations and outright conspiracy theories about the country, a key American ally.

Mr. Giuliani had also spent months stoking the president’s paranoia about the American ambassador to Ukraine at the time, Marie L. Yovanovitch, claiming that she was openly anti-Trumpand needed to be dismissed. Mr. Trump had ordered her removed as early as April 2018 during a private dinner with two Giuliani associates and others, a recording of the conversation made public on Saturday showed.

In his August 2019 discussion with Mr. Bolton, the president appeared focused on the theories Mr. Giuliani had shared with him, replying to Mr. Bolton’s question that he preferred sending no assistance to Ukraine until officials had turned over all materials they had about the Russia investigation that related to Mr. Biden and supporters of Mrs. Clinton in Ukraine.

The president often hits at multiple opponents in his harangues, and he frequently lumps together the law enforcement officials who conducted the Russia inquiry with Democrats and other perceived enemies, as he appeared to do in speaking to Mr. Bolton.

Mr. Bolton also described other key moments in the pressure campaign, including Mr. Pompeo’s private acknowledgment to him last spring that Mr. Giuliani’s claims about Ms. Yovanovitch had no basis and that Mr. Giuliani may have wanted her removed because she might have been targeting his clients who had dealings in Ukraine as she sought to fight corruption.

Ms. Yovanovitch, a Canadian immigrant whose parents fled the Soviet Union and Nazis, was a well-regarded career diplomat who was known as a vigorous fighter against corruption in Ukraine. She was abruptly removed last year and told the president had lost trust in her, even though a boss assured her she had “done nothing wrong.”


Mr. Bolton also said he warned White House lawyers that Mr. Giuliani might have been leveraging his work with the president to help his private clients.

At the impeachment trial, Mr. Trump himself had hoped to have his defense call a range of people to testify who had nothing to do with his efforts related to Ukraine, including Hunter Biden, to frame the case around Democrats. But the Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, repeatedly told the president that witnesses could backfire, and the White House has followed his lead.

Mr. McConnell and other Republicans in the Senate, working in tandem with Mr. Trump’s lawyers, have spent weeks waging their own rhetorical battle to keep their colleagues within the party tent on the question of witnesses, with apparent success. Two of the four Republican senators publicly open to witness votes have sounded notes of skepticism in recent days about the wisdom of having the Senate compel testimony that the House did not get.

Since Mr. Bolton’s statement, White House advisers have floated the possibility that they could go to court to try to obtain a restraining order to stop him from speaking. Such an order would be unprecedented, but any attempt to secure it could succeed in tying up his testimony in legal limbo and scaring off Republican moderates wary of letting the trial drag on when its outcome appears clear.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Mitch McConnell has destroyed the Senate, it appears.

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paprikash

That is sooooo explosive :>\

Senate is fine — Nancy destroyed the House

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Kathy

The Senate knows there is more evidence that incriminates Trump but they might vote for no witnesses? That isn’t a trial. That is a coverup.

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chipotle

Of course it's a coverup. Each day a new revelation.

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chipotle

The timing on this release is delicious. Some 15 hours before the Republicans are about to bellow their irrelevant, false, misleading, and extrapolated counter-narratives. Speeches will be reworked through the night.

🤣🤣🤣

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Nana H

The truth will out.....Maybe sooner rather than later

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Izzy Mn(4)

I think we all knew Bolton held the secrets only to sell more books. While glad the information will be out there now Bolton kind of disgusts me. Unless there is a plausible reason for withholding information until now.

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Nana H

He disgusts me too...always has....but it's time. I think when he dumps it all others may fallow suit. Pompeo must be a tad distraught.

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Nana H

Has Trump gone on a twitter rampage yet? Has FOX started the character assassination rampage yet?

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bfox254

I read that Bolton wanted the information out now so he wouldn't be accused of withholding it to sell books. Also read that the White House received an advance copy of the book draft to review so they already know what he will say. No wonder they want the trial over quickly. They weren't quick enough. Hope this makes it harder for certain senators to vote for no witnesses.

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bfox254

I imagine the defense will now shift to some version of "ok, he did it, but it's not impeachable"

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Iris GW

The tweets will be furious.

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Nana H

Trump supporters have been clamoring for first hand accounts .....be careful what you ask for .


" Former national security adviser John Bolton reportedly claims in his as yet unpublished memoir that President Trump sought to tie hundreds of millions of dollars in aid to Ukraine to his requests for the country's leaders to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden.

Multiple sources familiar with Bolton's book told The New York Times that he writes that President Trump personally told him that $391 million in aid to Ukraine should be frozen until Ukrainian officials announced the investigations, including one into the Democratic National Committee."

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/480014-bolton-book-alleges-trump-tied-ukraine-aid-freeze-to-biden


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chipotle



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Iris GW

I think Bolton released this just so the senators know a taste of what they are missing by not calling for him to testify.

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petalique

Bolton is free to testify anytime.

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Nana H

Guess FOX hasn't provided talking points on this one yet. Then again it's Sunday maybe the bobble heads are off for the night.

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chipotle

It's certainly gotten quiet around here.

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cattyles

The plot thickens. The WH attorney would have known this.

So now we have Nunes faked, lying outrage in the House and (at least) Cipollone’s lying remarks in the Senate.

Everything trump touches dies.

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Nana H

The transcript has been in their hands since December.

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Izzy Mn(4)

I wonder what kind of implications there are for Barr. He has really been playing dirty with Trump acting as his personal attorney rather than White House attorney.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

So now we Nunes faked, lying outrage in the House and (at least) Cipollone’s lying remarks in the Senate.

Everything trump touches dies.

Trump doesn't seem to have a problem finding persons willing to boogie their scruples away -- if they had any scruples to start.

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Couldnt the HOuse continue to take more sworn testimony. Yeah these guys can write books and go on talk shows, but imho there is some value in having sworn statements as part of the public record.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Agree with the need for sworn testimony.

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foodonastump

Of course but the hope would be that the more that gets to the public, the more the Senate feels pressure to allow testimony. After the fact won’t have the same impact. Bolton disgusts me, too; he’s got something to say and has been dragging his heels far too long.

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maddie260

Truth will out.

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maddie260

Just adding: Barr is Attorney General and Cippollone is attorney for THE office of the President. Barr and Cippollone are now acting as personal attorneys for dt.

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Kathy

This is what happens when a person with no experience in government runs a country like a business. He relies on friends and business associates instead of dedicated career officials who are versed in the details and intricacies of foreign policy within a historical context.


Hannity, Giuliani and others at Mar-A-Lago are not reliable advisors on foreign policy unless what Trump seeks is business advice, not what is good for America. I suspect that is part of the quid-pro-quo. They work in tandem to benefit each other. America is not the priority.

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cattyles

He thought nothing of swearing an oath he had no interest in upholding. He thinks we are just peasants and don’t matter.

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Stan Areted

Curious how so many declare exactly what another person thinks.

And have no idea at all.

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lurker111

It's a symptom. Best to ignore it.

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olliesmom

Anyone who writes a book to try to out the President at this time, the content has to be questionable, just like Comey. How can the President trust anyone nowadays?? Can you blame him for trying to keep his circle close?

All future Presidents will have this happen to them. It's really scary times now in our American culture that people can turn on you to make a buck, especially in politics. How are we ever to know what is true and what is not?

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Stan Areted

Olliesmom:

All future Presidents will have this happen to them. It's really scary times now in our American culture that people can turn on you to make a buck, especially in politics. How are we ever to know what is true and what is not?


Or they turn because they think they're superior to you and assume they can get in the inner circle and run things like they want, and then they find out they weren't elected President, after all.

Like Comey and Bolton, who now have learned that lesson and appear to be out for revenge, covering their own tracks, and making money while doing it, the Swamp System at work.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

"Curious how so many declare exactly what another person thinks.

And have no idea at all."

Trumpsters think like Trump and Trump thinks like them, they have said so themselves quite often. It's not a declaration, it's an admission.

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queenmargo

Trumpsters think like Trump and Trump thinks like them, they have said so themselves quite often. It's not a declaration, it's an admission.

vgkg- Trumpsters support Trump and understand Trump. No one thinks exactly like Trump but himself.


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foodonastump

Everybody’s saying it in testimony but the defense is there are no first hand witnesses. Firsthand witness says he’d testify if subpoenaed, defense is to fight subpoena. First hand witness, not some joe blow but a long-serving high level individual makes accusations in a book, defense is he’s just trying to sell books. Oh and the oft-projected mental illness. Pathetic.

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Ziemia(6a)

Didn't Bolton ask to be subpoenaed?

And Pelosi decided to skip it as it would have been appealed - ending in the Supreme Court - and that means a lot of time and would give Trump even more ways to make noise.

Yup - here

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/480040-trump-falsely-claims-house-democrats-never-asked-bolton-to-testify

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Nana H

Bolton is a rock solid Republican and conservative. I don't like him one bit. He is way to hawkish for me. However, I don't believe he is lying.

Let the character assassination begin starting with him being a deep stare, anti Trumper.

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queenmargo

Believe me Ziemia- the insanity that the Libs are showing makes that statement rather believable.

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foodonastump

Oh look another joins in on the insanity defense. Pffft.

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lurker111

Denial...

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lurker111

It's all disregarded as propaganda. Nothing the left says even resembles reality.

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Ziemia(6a)

And they'll claim Bolton is a "lib".

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Ziemia(6a)

See? Lurker is lumping Bolton with 'the left' already.

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lurker111

See? Lurker is lumping Bolton with 'the left' already.

I never saw a difference between the two, GOP-DNC. Same people, as I have always said. I see right through them.

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chipotle

Has Trump gone on a twitter rampage yet?


Yes, ma'am. His feathers appear ruffled.

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mudhouse

How can the President trust anyone nowadays?? Can you blame him for trying to keep his circle close?

Losing the ability to have a confidential conversation is a huge problem. From the moment Trump was elected, people were ready to take out of context comments and run them straight from a meeting to the press. The NYTimes, WaPo, Buzzfeed, CNN, and MSNBC are a ready market for anything that can be twisted or embellished for the purpose of damaging Trump. I've never seen the media be so lacking in professional ethics as they are right now.

Couple this worsening situation with this truth: part of any major decision making process is to consider every possible angle. In any legitimate brainstorming conversation, ideas are exposed and explored, for the express purpose of eliminating them. Being free to have honest conversations about actions and consequences is absolutely necessary, in any relationship or business, and it's even more critical in the Oval Office.

It's not a luxury for a president to be able to have conversations in confidence with his staff; it's a necessity. If people know that anything they say can be twisted and used against them, the process of intelligent decision making has been suffocated.

I know there's always been a market for publishing confidential information for profit and political gain. There always will be. But it feels like we've gone too far down this road. It's absolutely damaging to the country, no matter who is in the White House.

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lurker111

Harry Reid instructed the IC to give false info to Trump. We can't trust any of them, and never did. Democrats used to be much smarter than they are today. At least they appeared to be.

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mudhouse

I've been way too naive, lurker. I used to think that both parties (as a whole, in general) cared more about the well being of their country than they did about furthering their ideology. I used to think they would stop short of doing permanent damage to the country's institutions, as they pushed for their ideas. I was wrong.

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Ziemia(6a)

Did the IC do what Reid said?

(Harry Reid retired way too late in life.)

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chipotle

I used to think that both parties (as a whole, in general) cared more about the well being of their country than they did about furthering their ideology. I used to think they would stop short of doing permanent damage to the country's institutions, as they pushed for their ideas. I was wrong.


Yes, Mudhouse. You were wrong. The Republican party has played their hand with Trump and it's not a pretty sight.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump has not lost the right or ability to have a confidential convo. He still has them. He has his golf courses. He has his southern WH.

His convos with witnesses are subject to analysis. That is why there is usually a team listening in.

It is important that any illegal behavior be called out, IMO. No president gets 100% guarantee of 100% being held in confidence. This would make him above the law and the Constitution doesn't do that.

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Ziemia(6a)

Now, more folks are lumping Bolton in with Democratic ideology.

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Toby

Bolton can give his testimony under oath. Solves everything. How freeing it will feel when you know the truth and don't have to defend Trump anymore.

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Nana H

Bolton a liberal...now that is funny.

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Joaniepoanie

“The problem with John is it’s a national security problem,”


....said the president who invited Russians into the Oval Office and gave them classified information.

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mudhouse

The Republican party has played their hand with Trump and it's not a pretty sight.

Then you and I are equal in the strength of our beliefs, chipotle. I think the Democrats have revealed themselves to be a party that will happily trample due process, fairness, and the importance of the constitutional process of impeachment in their pursuit for power.

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Ziemia(6a)

And McConnell's failure to set up the process as he promised - one used previously - is not a failure of due process?

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justerrilynn(10)

I just heard an interesting take on FN, Bolton should come forth on his own accord on a TV interview. He could then shed some light on the leaked draft of the manuscript. The justice department is denying the sequence of events. Bolton could, in one interview claim or disclaim the leak as fact or fiction.

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sheesh(5b)

But he wouldn't be under oath, and he would be called a liar, right?

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lurker111

President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he
wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to
Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats
including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the
former adviser, John R. Bolton.

We already know that isn't true. Schiff testified to it.

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Nana H

Romney says, as result of the Bolton information, there are enough Republican Senators to call witnesses.

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dandyfopp

Bolton a liberal...now that is funny.


Just another deep state coffee boy RINO plotting against the second coming.

Cult is gonna cult.


⬇⬇⬇⬇



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queenmargo

Well, if Romney says so..........

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justerrilynn(10)

Sheesh, I don’t know if he would be called a liar. We don’t know if the leaked draft was tampered with. As it is It goes against the entire Justice Departments sequence of events.

As it is It goes against the entire Justice Departments sequence of events.

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foodonastump

Oh of course he would be called a liar. And we’d be mentally ill for believing him. Blah blah blah.

Just checked his Twitter to see if he’s saying anything about it. Of course not. But there’s this:


And the obvious response came quickly:


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barncatz

Well Trump flat out denies having a conversation with Bolton tying the aid to Biden, Crowdstrike conspiracy investigations. So, no point in mourning loss of poor Trump's ability to brainstorm courses of action with his advisors.

Oh, and let's remember the Ukraine investigation brainstorming sessions we've heard about from Sondland and Mulvaney. So, all is not lost for poor, pitiful Donald.



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Joaniepoanie

Trump was not denied due process. He refused the House invitation to participate in the hearing either himself or through counsel. Republican congressman were not shut out of the SCIF. These are lies and propaganda. Google both and many articles pop up from reputable sources all over supporting the opposite of what Trump, Fox keep saying and what WH lawyers brazenly stated in their impeachment opening.

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dandyfopp
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Kathy

The pursuit of power. Trump abused his power by withholding Federal military aid to Ukraine to discredit his opponent.


Now the Senate is continuing that abuse of power by insisting they call Biden as a witness.


Remember, Trump never wanted an actual investigation. He only wanted the appearance of one.

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maddie260

I read that the WH had until 2/14 to clear Bolton's book; it is no wonder McConnell and dt wanted a fast trial. My question: who was this 'whistleblower'?

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catkinZ8a

Chuck Cooper, an attorney for former National Security Adviser John Bolton, said that Bolton’s book manuscript was submitted to the National Security Council for a standard review for classified information, but its contents appear to have been leaked to the New York Times.

Cooper was reacting to a story in the Times that alleges President Donald Trump told Bolton that he wanted to withhold aid to Ukraine until it completed investigations Trump had requested.

Cooper said in a statement:

On December 30, 2019, I submitted, on behalf of Ambassador Bolton, a book manuscript to the National Security Council’s Records Management Division for standard prepublication security review for classified information. As explained in my cover letter to Ellen J. Knight, Senior Director of the Records Management Division, we submitted the manuscript notwithstanding our firm belief that the manuscript contained no information that could reasonably be considered classified and on the assurance that the ‘process of reviewing submitted materials is restricted to those career government officials and employees regularly charged with responsibility for such reviews’ and the ‘contents of Ambassador Bolton’s manuscript will not be reviewed or otherwise disclosed to any personals not regularly involved in that process. A copy of my December 30 letter is attached. It is clear, regrettably, from The New York Times article published today that the prepublication review process has been corrupted and that information has been disclosed by persons other than those properly involved in reviewing the manuscript.

The statement came after the Times report alleged — according to “multiple people” — that Trump told Bolton in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until they helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens.

The Times also story alleged that Bolton had circulated the draft manuscript to “close associates,” but a spokesperson for Bolton told the outlet, “The ambassador has not passed the draft manuscript to anyone else. Period.”

The leak of Bolton’s manuscript — while not known if accurately depicted — has fueled Democrats’ calls for Bolton to testify during the Senate impeachment trial against Trump.

House impeachment managers argued that despite having “overwhelming” evidence, they needed Bolton’s testimony. House Democrats dropped a subpoena of Bolton in order to avoid a lengthy court battle, but Bolton later said if subpoenaed by the Senate, he would testify.

The White House and Republicans argue that Bolton’s discussions with the president are protected under executive privilege, which allows for the president to keep discussions with his advisers private.

Democrats argued that the Times’ story was evidence that Bolton needed to testify.

“The Senate trial must seek the full truth and Mr. Bolton has vital information to provide,” according to a statement published by the Washington Post.

“There is no defensible reason to wait until his book is published, when the information he has to offer is critical to the most important decision senators must now make — whether to convict the president of impeachable offenses,” Democrats argued.

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/01/26/boltons-lawyer-draft-book-was-leaked-to-new-york-times/

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Toby

Bolton wanted it leaked before the trial.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Does someone think Mr. Bolton just wrote his book?

And House Democrats have been absolutely following constitutional guidelines and procedures meticulously, so I do not know how anyone can believe they haven't been, unless their info is either coming from a corrupt source, or they are clinging to a false belief for some other reason.

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dandyfopp

Nothing to hide, but working so hard to hide it.


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Toby

Well Trump flat out denies having a conversation with Bolton tying the aid to Biden, Crowdstrike conspiracy investigations.

Let's get Trump under oath. But who doesn't think that Trump would lie under oath just as easily as he does every day on every matter big and small?

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chipotle

Bolton is peddling books to the simple-minded.

Is that how you refer to his long-time Fox audience?

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Toby

Dandyfopp, it is the drawn-out legal fight that is behind some Senators not willing to vote for witnesses. This article came out before the news of Bolton's manuscript.

"Former Attorney General MichaelMukasey gave a presentation to Senate Republicans on Wednesday about how cumbersome it would be to subpoena someone like former national security adviser John Bolton. Mukasey told the senators that it could take weeks or months to work out how to question Bolton and overcome the barriers of executive privilege, according to an attendee.

That made GOP leaders feel even better about defeating the witness vote next week. And Democrats are feeling worse.

“I was much more optimistic last week than I am this week about winning the vote on witnesses. Because I think that pressure [from McConnell] is happening,” said Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.). “I thought by this week there would be a critical mass of Republicans.”
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/23/lamar-alexandar-trump-impeachment-trial-103034

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catkinZ8a

Bolton's mandated to report criminal activity.

He said NOTHING.

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numbersjunkie

"Bolton's mandated to report criminal activity."

Is there a criminal law that states it's "illegal" for a President to use the power of his office to pressure foreign power to help him dig up dirt on his political opponents?

LOL. Nice try though.

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leona_2008

Speaking of insanity, what do you call taking the word of someone known to have uttered over 16,000 lies in a little over 3 years?

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queenmargo

Speaking of insanity, what do you call taking the word of someone known to have uttered over 16,000 lies in a little over 3 years?

A Schiff cultist?

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Trumpster Cult seems to cover it.

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lurker111

"Bolton's book" goes against sworn testimony provided by witnesses called by the crats..

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Iris GW

Would Bolton be considered a firsthand witness?

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Kathy

Trump’s lawyers are on the stand lying about there being no firsthand witnesses. How can they be allowed to tell such blatant lies? Do the pubs actually believe them? Talk about a sham.

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numbersjunkie

"Speaking of insanity, what do you call taking the word of someone known to have uttered over 16,000 lies in a little over 3 years?

A Schiff cultist?"

Another perfect example of projection!

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chipotle

That's not even projection; it's just pure nonsense.

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justerrilynn(10)

I have a suspicion that by the time Trump’s defense team is done a majority will not find witnesses necessary.

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Nana H

They must think the American people are really stupid. There are first hand witnesses but Trump would not allow them to testify. Yes , they could have gone to court but that would mean this would drag on past the election.

Democrats have know since day one , even with first hand witness testimony, it was unlikely the Senate would ever convict. So they did the next best thing, give it to the Senate and bring public pressure to bear on witnesses. The strategy has worked brilliantly. The numbers are clear.

The vulnerable Repubican Senators now have to make a choice. Bring first hand witnesses and let the truth come out OR deny witnesses and alienate a large percentage of Americans who want witnesses OR let it go to the courts and let this hang in the air untill the election knowing Bolton' s book is coming out no matter what they do.

Rock and a hard place. Good job Madame Speaker.

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paprikash

It’s amazing how much more professional the President’s lawyers are than the House’s lawyers.

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Nana H

Matter of perspective.

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Kathy

I am of the opinion the Dems need to take it to court now too. I don’t care if it drags on until the election. Trump will just keep adding to his guilt between now and then.

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Kathy

Ken Starr is a good orator. The facts were misleading and thin but they might sound good to the uninformed.

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lurker111

The crats are trying to destroy their own witnesses. Too funny! You can't make this stuff up.

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paprikash

LOL. Bolton’s book is selling like hot cakes to the naive liberals who will buy anything anti Trump.

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lurker111

I am of the opinion the Dems need to take it to court now too.

The crats are afraid of the courts. Any judge would laugh in their faces.

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numbersjunkie

"The crats are afraid of the courts. Any judge would laugh in their faces."

Really? Not sure where you get your news, but Federal Judges have laughed at the crazy arguments Trump's attorneys have made in several recent cases! But nice try.

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chipotle

paprikash

LOL. Bolton’s book is selling like hot cakes to the naive liberals who will buy anything anti Trump.


Who told you that? The book doesn't go on sale until March. And most liberals aren't fans of Bolton.

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justerrilynn(10)

My favorite lawyer is up now, Patrick Philbin. He is just so good! I also find him deliciously nerdy.

Comparing the Trump defense team to the mean girl team is...well, you can’t even compare. The Trump team is professional and deals with facts and law. The mean girl team deals in gossip.

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chipotle

I am of the opinion the Dems need to take it to court now too. I don’t care if it drags on until the election


It would drag on way past the election. Look how long they've been trying to force McGahn to testify. They originally filed last August.


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lurker111

Federal Judges are also being investigated. Pay attention to Barr.

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Nana H

Must say of the bunch I like him (Philbin) the best . However, still waiting for a dispute of the actual facts and evidence rather than generalization about the law , the testimony and the process. He can argue executive privilege all he wants.....too late.

He was good yesterday but he is a tad boring today. Actually more than tad. Trump may have even fallen asleep.

Starr is a good speaker but I found his arguments very, very thin and more importantly not very heart felt.

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chipotle

My favorite lawyer is up now, Patrick Philbin. He is just so good! I also find him deliciously nerdy.




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barncatz

The mean girl team deals in gossip.

RIP, irony.

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justerrilynn(10)

Chipotle, don’t diss my Patrick lol.

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chipotle



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justerrilynn(10)

Haha, ok, at least you have a sense of humor.

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HU-885118952

Chris Wallace has lost his mind. I saw that segment and he was irritable and rude to Katie Pavlich. She's a smart, capable lady who's incredibly well spoken and he was interrupting her and getting angry at her expressing her POV. He sneered and snapped at her, "You better get your facts straight!".

Bye, Chris.

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chipotle

Fox can't allow facts, can they?

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leona_2008

I don't think Fox is too comfortable with ethical people. Or you could just say they don't like people who don't support trump.

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chipotle

Trump sure knows how to pick 'em.




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Nana H

Let's watch her " play " to the " man" . She is a real piece of work.

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justerrilynn(10)

Pam is slamming it. Biden’s going down.

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chipotle



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catkinZ8a

LOL! Bondi played the video showing QUID PRO JOE Biden bragging about HOLDING MONEY BACK FROM UKRAINE!




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Nana H

" Pam is slamming it. Biden’s going down"

HOOT !!!!


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chipotle

The only valuable thing Pam Bondi has shared is that we used to have an administration that gave daily press briefings. Good times!

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chipotle



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Del Phinium

^ Yawn. Just more Dem spin.


Bondi just TORCHED the Bidens. Absolutely torched them

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Del Phinium

Philbin was great too. Cool as a cucumber, and made the House Managers look like the spiteful, hypocritical, partisan, power starved, TDS infected hacks that they are

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HU-885118952

Nana H

Let's watch her " play " to the " man" . She is a real piece of work.

Interesting.

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HU-885118952

Bondi was fierce. Really impressed. I always enjoy her appearances on FOX and think she's so amazing for Florida. It's from nasty comments like we can see, that she's taken abuse from the Trump haters, including men who have spat in her face.

But she refuses to be intimidated or frightened away from speaking up.

Funny how some strong women provoke such attacks from the Left.

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HU-885118952

Del, I agree Philbin has given great presentations. Trump's team has such focus and discipline.

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Nana H

Actually I don't see her that way. I see her as an opportunistic person who knows how the game with Trump is played. Her sex is irrelevant , at least to me.

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HU-885118952

Bondi just TORCHED the Bidens. Absolutely torched them

Bondi torched any reason to doubt that Obama and his administration were aware of the Biden conflict, as well as the MSM, who did report on the conflict and look of corruption.

I really appreciate that Bondi elucidated the Bidens' enrichment from China, too.

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justerrilynn(10)

Rhymes with glut-shaming. Interesting.



HU- 885118952, apparently it’s ok when they do it. I’d go to their women’s march but I sold my 1970 clothes.

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chipotle


Bondi torched any reason to doubt that Obama and his administration were aware of the Biden conflict, as well as the MSM, who did report on the conflict and look of corruption.


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chipotle

justerrilynn(10)

Rhymes with glut-shaming. Interesting.


HU- 885118952, apparently it’s ok when they do it. I’d go to their women’s march but I sold my 1970 clothes.



Is something missing? And what's with the faux outrage? No one has dissed Bondi as a woman.

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mudhouse

Wow. Two hard hitting sections of today's testimony about the Bidens. This is brutal for Hunter and Joe.

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HU-885118952

mudhouse, if they vote to call witnesses, Trump's team just laid out the case that it can't exclude the Bidens.

So, be careful what you wish for, Dems!

There's no protecting the Bidens if they vote to call witnesses.

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chipotle



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Kathy

“Ivanka Trump's company won valuable China trademarks the day she dined with Chinese President Xi Jinping

'Ivanka has so many China ties and conflicts, yet she and Jared appear deeply involved in China contacts and policy. I would never have allowed it,' said Norman Eisen, chief White House ethics lawyer under Barack Obama”

Yet they make a big deal about Hunter Biden.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Would Bolton be considered a firsthand witness?

First hand, first arm, first torso, first legs, all the way down to his tiny toes.

Yes, Starr does a good job of arguing against his 1990's self, Dershowitz will also be outstanding conflicting with his former self. Team Schizo.

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mudhouse

So, be careful what you wish for, Dems!

Lol HU88, Herschmann just repeated what you said: Be careful what you wish for.

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Nana H

Why would Trump ask a government he believed to be corrupt to investigate an Americzn citizen ? Especially when he has the power to bring the entire American justice system to bear .

Easy question......hard answer.

I think Joe Biden would make a terrific witness. Not that I think that will ever happen.


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Kathy

The whole notion of Biden testifying is just another opportunity for Trump team to trash his opponent. The same thing Trump was trying to get Zelensky to do for him.

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HU-885118952

ABC: Did Joe Biden's son profit off Father's position as Vice President.

Ukraine AND China. But what with orange man bad, the MSM dropped their investigations and have remained silent throughout the attacks on Trump for following up on the obvious conflict and corruption.



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dandyfopp

Bondi does Burisma has destroyed Hunters chances in Iowa, tragic.

You get what you pay for Donnie.






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HU-885118952

Hunter remained on the board of Burisma getting paid $85K a month, until his father announced his 2020 run for President.

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HU-885118952

LOVE that Herschmann is drawing attention to Obama's hot mic moment where he signalled fealty to Russia before his 2012 election.

Obama should have been impeached over his qpq with Putin, not to mention, Benghazi.

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catkinZ8a

QUID PRO O.

IMPEACH OBAMA!

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catkinZ8a

The Full Bondi:



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mudhouse

That was an absolutely phenomenal session by Hirschmann! Hard hitting, clearly stated, and one strong point after another. Must have been very hard for the Dem case managers to sit through that (especially because he directed so many comments to them throughout his presentation.) That was a beating.

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catkinZ8a

Watch Leftist Loser and Trump-hater Chris Wallace lose control and attack his colleague Katie Pavlich:

https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/status/1221857700574789632/video/1

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catkinZ8a

Biden and Dems got SHREDDED.

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HU-885118952

catkin, Wallace is a disgrace. He must be a real gem to work with.


Especially if you're a woman.

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HU-885118952

mudhouse, I love every part that starts with, 'What the Democrats didn't tell you..."

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catkinZ8a

952--his Dad Mike must be rolling...

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catkinZ8a

LOL, regrouping?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Wallace is a disgrace. He must be a real gem to work with. Especially if you're a woman.

Wallace hasn't been accused of being a Mr. Grabby Hands or a let-me-advance-your-career lecher -- unlike other men at Fox.

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ubro(2a)

So, put Hunter on trial for his alleged crimes, none of that will exonerate Trump.

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justerrilynn(10)

I don’t mind Wallace and try to watch his Sunday show. In the past he was fair with both sides of the isle. I’m not sure what’s going on with him lately , he’s been getting crankier and crankier. Chris is in his 70’s so perhaps he is having health issues.

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catkinZ8a

True Dem colors.

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catkinZ8a

FNN spin registering on doppler radar.

Dana Bash stammering into space trying to convince the few in her audience that Rs are very concerned about Bolton.

Hilarious!

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cattyles

Why didn’t anyone ever tell me there was after-five disco court attire? I must clear a space in my closet. Is that by petites or lingerie?

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Iris GW

Ok, this is happening a lot here so I have to say something.

The word is AISLE, both sides of the aisle. "Isle" is an island or peninsula.

Thank you. /grammar rant

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HU-885118952

justerrilynn(10)

I
don’t mind Wallace and try to watch his Sunday show. In the past he was
fair with both sides of the isle. I’m not sure what’s going on with him
lately , he’s been getting crankier and crankier. Chris is in his 70’s
so perhaps he is having health issues.

Wallace treated Pavlich-his colleague at FOX- will utter contempt. Brett Baier's face said it all!

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HU-885118952

Why didn’t anyone ever tell me there was after-five disco court attire?
I must clear a space in my closet. Is that by petites or lingerie?

It's by where nasty Maxie gets her road-kill wigs.

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cattyles

Wallace just said people should get their facts straight. Are facts actually not allowed on FOX?

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HU-885118952

Chris Wallace is turning into his father and that could explain a lot.

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cattyles

Did his father also prefer facts on a “news” broadcast?

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maddie260

Oh, good lord, the last potus spinner: 'everyone, both Ds and Rs agreed about Nixon; we don't have that now'. What a rewrite of history-he speaks as though everyone agreed from Day 1! No one agreed until the tapes came out, and the Rs told him he had to go! We now have the tapes in the form of Bolton's book!

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HU-885118952

We now have the tapes in the form of Bolton's book!

Wow. A kiss and tell book is in no way, shape or form a tape of a crime.


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barncatz

Hey, did anybody hear that Bolton confirmed Sondland and Parnas statements that Trump told him he was using our tax dollars needed by Ukraine to fight Russia, in order to put pressure on the new President to announce that Joe Biden was under investigation?

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barncatz


Now Bolton is also a liar?

Dayum. That is some conspiracy.

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Nana H

....and Trump is the truth teller. Got it!

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Ann

I've not been on this thread, but I just scanned it. I'm glad I did because I had stuff I had to go do this afternoon and was recording Fox News. Based on some comments on this thread, I found the Bondi part in my recordings. I WANT witnesses now! I knew about 10% or less of all the Biden things she covered and the specific timeline. I'd love to give the Dems Bolton and 3 others of their choice for Hunter, Joe, the WB, and Schiff (or whoever on his staff met with the WB). If we don't get witnesses in this process, I think it would be TERRIBLE if there was not a complete and full investigation of the Bidens! Yes, yes, yes to witnesses!

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chipotle

Ann, that's hilarious. Were you also voicing an opinion about a Biden investigation back in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 when the Republicans were in control?

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Ann

I didn't know a 10th of this information in those years!

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Iris GW

But the Republicans did.

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chipotle

Why do you think the Republicans, who fought Obama at every turn, didn't see any reason to investigate Biden?

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Izzy Mn(4)

From the OP:

Mr. Giuliani had also spent months stoking the president’s paranoia about the American ambassador to Ukraine at the time, Marie L. Yovanovitch, claiming that she was openly anti-Trumpand needed to be dismissed. Mr. Trump had ordered her removed as early as April 2018 during a private dinner with two Giuliani associates and others, a recording of the conversation made public on Saturday showed.

And this:

Mr. Bolton also said he warned White House lawyers that Mr. Giuliani might have been leveraging his work with the president to help his private clients.

-------------

This ties in with the recording supplied by Lev Parna. During the recording Parna brought up Yovanivitch saying she thought Trump would or should be impeached. Trump didn't seem to know anything about her but said he would get rid of her.

Were Parna and Guilliani planting the seed to get Trump to get rid of her. Also to subvert the new president of Ukraine with Trump /Putin agenda to blame Ukraine for the 2016 elections and to "get dirt" on Biden. There seems to be a whole crowd trying to use the Ukraine from every which way.

Someone refered to the White House administration at a pit if vipers. Very fitting description.


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chipotle

Were Parna and Guilliani planting the seed to get Trump to get rid of her.


Sure looks that way.

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cattyles

Call your senators, Ann.

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maddie260

I don’t think anyone cared until Biden was a formidable POTUS candidate. That’s why Ann didn’t know.

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Ann

As Bondi said today, one or some of the most damning Biden stories were never published by media! And it's true, I did not pay much attention to Biden as VP. I never pay much attention to VPs. I likely never would have paid much attention to this at all had it not been for this impeachment trial and all that I learned today. Trump had more than every reason to question the happenings at Burisma!!!! They should have already been thoroughly investigated, at least by early 2016, but look who was in office then! It would have been nearly impossible to do with VP Biden being the Ukraine guy, protecting Hunter, pre-Zelensky and with the Shokin "removal". I was blown away by the detailed laying out and timeline of the whole story today! I don't care how many witnesses get called and how long this takes, massive kudos to Trump for wanting to get to the bottom of this. I don't care whether it happens in this trial or with a special investigation, but this needs to be looked at very thoroughly!

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queenmargo

I don't care how many witnesses get called and how long this takes, massive kudos to Trump for wanting to get to the bottom of this.

I agree Ann.

Can you imagine Trump sitting there having to listen to all this bogus Russia Russia Russia by the Dems trying to crucify him, and here are the Biden's knee deep in corruption.

By all means they should be investigated, and if Trump said looking into it would be a great favor, well, he would be remiss not to.

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maddie260

Republicans had the presidency, house, and senate for two years; nothing about Biden? They had time to do multiple investigations about Benghazi- hmmmm- why?- HRC was the candidate. (that was easy!) Now, Biden has steam and he needs investigation? Give me a break. Republican defense today: investigate any/everyone except dt!

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Ann

"dt" has been constantly investigated for every second of his time in office, to the tune of millions and millions of dollars. What are you talking about?

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Joaniepoanie

Not one shred of evidence against the Bidens, but we clearly see Trump’s MO—-repeat something over and over and hope it sticks. Bribe a foreign leader to just say there’s an investigation for the smear.

Repubs are ravenous to get the Bidens, to smear Joe enough he doesn’t get the nomination. If there was any truth to their claims or evidence, Biden would already be indicted and in jail awaiting trial. Isn’t it something though that he’s on the campaign trail? Hillary’s busy enjoying life and her grandkids. Meanwhile, 34 people surrounding Trump indicted, in jail, or awaiting sentencing. And Trump impeached. Imagine that.

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Ann

Good thing Hillary is enjoying life and grandkids because she sure as heck isn't enjoying a 2016 election win and "her turn" in the White House:)

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mudhouse

Why do you think the Republicans, who fought Obama at every turn, didn't see any reason to investigate Biden?

Well, that's easy. Trump wasn't in the White House, and he is now. He's been running nonstop since January of 2017, undoing bad trade deals, getting tax reform passed, strengthening the economy, creating jobs, strengthening national security, getting judicial appointments, taking out global terrorists, and dealing with the Mueller witch hunt and the impeachment hoax.

So these things take time, but don't worry; he'll get there. Complicated business.

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mudhouse

Good thing Hillary is enjoying life and grandkids because she sure as heck isn't enjoying a 2016 election win and "her turn" in the White House:)

Hallelujah, and amen!

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lurker111

Insanity...

In the nuthouse - The crats impeached Trump for trying to get dirt on biden.

In the senate - The crats claimed that Trump didn't want an investigation to get dirt on biden, he just wanted an investigation to be announced.

In reality - The crats impeachment is an unconstitutional attack on America.

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queenmargo

Funny, but really it is sad.

Here we had old gaffy loveable Joe Biden as VP, (which mostly everyone overlooked), busy as can be with his sons knee-deep in Ukraine corruption.

No wonder Obama said "Joe, you don't have to do this" when Biden was encouraged to run. Joe's ego got the best of him and decided to run. Dem's always over play their dirty hands. No wonder Obama is not endorsing Biden. Obama is waiting to see if Joe can get past all what is coming out. He knows.

Obama is a coward. a liar, a sell out, and most of all anti- American.



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vgkg (Va Z-7)

I don’t mind Wallace and try to watch his Sunday show. In the past he was fair with both sides of the isle. I’m not sure what’s going on with him lately

He's getting forgetful and skips his glass of morning kool-aid on some days.

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Nana H

Maybe the facts got to him.

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lurker111

Joe is only running to try to stop an investigation against his family. It won't work. He isn't even a contender. I would love to see his real poll numbers. I'm sure it reflects the size of his crowds.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Joe is only running to try to stop an investigation against his family.

It would have been a lot easier to just not run in the first place, but then again trump would have not been impeached for extorting Ukraine.

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lurker111

Does that make sense to you?

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Not many of your comments do.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

It'll be entertaining to see fox turn Bolton into a lefty shill in the coming days. Look out John, the fox bus is coming for ya.....plenty of room under there for both you and Wallace.

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Nana H

It is being reported that Bolton was also alarmed about personal favors Trump was granting to his strong man buddies, Xi and Erdogan. Apparently he expressed these concerns to Barr who also also expressed concern.

I didn't hear whether Barr went along with the President but no doubt it will come out, the truth always does.

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Ann

"No wonder Obama said "Joe, you don't have to do this" when Biden was encouraged to run. Joe's ego got the best of him and decided to run. Dem's always over play their dirty hands. No wonder Obama is not endorsing Biden. Obama is waiting to see if Joe can get past all what is coming out. He knows."

Agreed!!! I could hardly sleep last night thinking about all that Biden stuff that was sequentially and carefully spelled out yesterday. I had these precise thoughts in my almost sleepless night. The more I think about it, while I think it's fine if both Biden men testify in this trial, a full investigation is most definitely needed too.

Slimy Hunter has agreed to pay child support to avoid his upcoming court appearance.

Talk about draining the swamp. We heard of some very seriously needed swamp draining yesterday.

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Ann

Yesterday, I talked about 4 much needed witnesses the GOP needs to hear from (Joe, Hunter, WB, and Schiff (or his appropriate staff member - whoever had the most coordination with Mr. WB). We need Atkinson too!

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lurker111

no doubt it will come out, the truth always does.

Yep. Never a good thing for the crats.

"It's Mueller time"...LOL!!! :^)

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lurker111

Slimy Hunter has agreed to pay child support to avoid his upcoming court appearance.

He's a crat. He expects the republicans to care for his kids after they are born.

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barncatz

As Bondi said today, one or some of the most damning Biden stories were never published by media!

And those stories of damning misbehavior that she exposed are......?

I understand the hate for Obama, that's understandable given our history. But to see the Republicans go full Joe McCarthy on Joe Biden because of his son, when their Leader vaulted his daughter and son-in-law into the highest levels of power, influence and money, is gag making.

And to be calling for the WB, as if all of these Trump actions will turn out to be fabrications of a Trump hater, none of them happened, they were all cooked up by Schiff and the whistle blower!

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dandyfopp


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lurker111

What are they covering up? The trial has just started. They are exposing the crats actions as unconstitutional. How are you seeing a coverup? The case is over, the house voted on "a mountain of evidence" and took their case to the senate. They will be judged on the case they presented and voted on.

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Kathy

Bolton is the biggest elephant in the room at this sham of a trial.

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lurker111

I don't give any credence to something that was leaked from a book and most likely used out of context.

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mudhouse

Obama is waiting to see if Joe can get past all what is coming out.

He's awfully quiet.

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Ann

Lurker, I agree about Bolton.

I don't care if he testifies as long as reciprocity is applied - which still seems unfair because it really should be reciprocity plus an additional number of GOP picks to match the non-reciprocal aspect of the House proceedings - truly evening things out. Anyway, he can discuss their policy differences, his feud with Trump and others in the administration, and what he "projects" was in Trump's mind with each decision Trump ultimately made. All of that is fine.

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queenmargo

Obama is a coward.

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Ann

Obama sure is quiet, and I definitely don't think we'll here a peep from him about Biden this week.

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queenmargo

Since when does a leak to the NYT get to dictate anything?

I like Lindsey Grahams idea. Release the manuscript. Let it be read and decided by the senate.

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mudhouse

From the OP: President Trump told his national security adviser in August that he wanted to continue freezing $391 million in security assistance to Ukraine until officials there helped with investigations into Democrats including the Bidens, according to an unpublished manuscript by the former adviser, John R. Bolton.

I don't understand what all the uproar is about.

I agree with lurker, I think it's most likely the statements have been exaggerated to sell books, and taken out of context. BUT even if the manuscript is accurate, and Trump did tell Bolton he wanted to hold the assistance until investigations were agreed to, that's not impeachable.

Quid pro quo arrangements are a standard part of agreements between world leaders all the time. That's what Mulvaney was saying. Trump told Mexico he would withhold aid if they didn't stem the flow of immigrants streaming through their southern border. They did. They got the aid.

The only problematic area would be if Trump said he wanted to hold the assistance until Ukraine produced dirt on Biden, his political opponent, because that would be for his own personal benefit.

If Trump wanted the investigations because of suspected corruption that included Biden, as the OP says, that's actually his job. To be problematic, Bolton would have to testify that Trump told him his motivation was not the pursuit of corruption in general; only dirt on Biden to help in the 2020 campaign. And even then, if Bolton said that, it would be his word against Trump's. And Bolton is selling books, and didn't leave on the best of terms, so arguments could be made about his credibility. He has motives, if he wanted, to stretch the truth.

How many times have we been told that the latest tell-all book is THE one that will "finish off drumpf"?

Meh.

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Kitchenwitch111

What exactly are the crimes that Hunter Binden committed?

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Ann

Yeah, these planned and timed leaks are getting too funny:) I was watching the Five yesterday and they were funny about Juan Williams seemingly not recognizing the planned/timed aspect of it. A couple of them began laughing at the same time about the same thing, before they explained their joint laughter to him. It was a funny, unplanned moment.

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queenmargo

Shades of the Kavanaugh witch hunt

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Ann

Heck yeah, it's the now very well known playbook.

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Kathy

Quid pro quo arrangements are a standard part of agreements between world leaders all the time.


Quid pro quo for personal gain are illegal. That’s the difference. It cannot be ignored or poo-pooed away.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Schumer just had a presser and stated GOP can call whichever witnesses they wish. House team has 4 they want to call.

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dandyfopp

GOP transparency and a new level of dumb.


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Iris GW

Schumer just had a presser and stated GOP can call whichever witnesses they wish. House team has 4 they want to call.

Called their bluff, huh?

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mudhouse

Quid pro quo for personal gain are illegal. That’s the difference. It cannot be ignored or poo-pooed away.

To date, the Dems aren't able to prove that the investigations were for personal gain. But I agree with you, the difference between personal gain and benefit for the country is the central question.

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Toby

And even then, if Bolton said that, it would be his word against Trump's.

It's sounding like some Trump followers are now willing to support having Bolton testify under oath so we can determine who is telling the truth.

If Bolton says it was quid pro quo, would you then accuse Bolton of lying under oath?

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Toby

mudhouse

Quid pro quo for personal gain are illegal. That’s the difference. It cannot be ignored or poo-pooed away.

To date, the Dems aren't able to prove that the investigations were
for personal gain. But I agree with you, the difference between personal
gain and benefit for the country is the central question.


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ubro(2a)

To date, the Dems aren't able to prove that the investigations were
for personal gain.

The inability for those on the right to understand that Trump and the WH have blocked key witnesses and documents is astounding.

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mudhouse

If Bolton says it was quid pro quo, would you then accuse Bolton of lying under oath?

No, I don't think Bolton would lie under oath. I disagree with his war hawk policies, but I don't think he'd commit perjury. I also don't think he would testify that a quid pro quo existed for personal benefit only, because I don't think that's what happened.

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mudhouse

Toby, regarding the letter: Giuliani investigating on behalf of Trump, as his personal attorney, is not proof that Trump wanted the investigation for personal reasons. That's an attempt to conflate two issues simply because of the common word "personal."

Giuliani is investigating to gather evidence about the existence of corruption in Ukraine that may involve US officials. It's Giuliani's job to provide evidence for demonstrating that Trump's interest in the investigation was not based on personal gain in the 2020 election, but on the need to expose corruption including the possible misuse of US funds, influence peddling, and election interference in the 2016 election. It's Trump's job, as president, to be concerned about the latter. It's Giuliani's job as his personal attorney to defend Trump from the accusation that his interest was only motivated by personal gain.

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Nana H

Not sure what Bolton will have to say but my belief is he will say that Trump never mentioned corruption only that he wanted investigations into the Democrats....not that we are likely to hear what he has to say until his book comes out. Speaking of which , I wonder if Trump will try and get an injunction against it.

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Nana H

"It's Giuliani's job as his personal attorney to defend Trump from the
accusation that his interest was only motivated by personal gain."

Except RG was up to this long before the phone call. He just wasn't getting what he wanted so the big gun went after it.


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Kathy

Trump is considering a restraining order against Bolton.

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Toby

You're kidding!

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Toby

mudhouse

Toby,
regarding the letter: Giuliani investigating on behalf of Trump, as his
personal attorney, is not proof that Trump wanted the investigation for
personal reasons. That's an attempt to conflate two issues simply
because of the common word "personal."

I'm not conflating anything. It's the "specific request" that he wanted to make of Zelensky as Trump's personal attorney that interests me. Also, what is the "matter" that Victoria Toensing is very familiar with? Is it Shokin's and Ukraine's corruption or is it about the Bidens? Big difference.

Nana H

"It's Giuliani's job as his personal attorney to defend Trump from the
accusation that his interest was only motivated by personal gain."

Except RG was up to this long before the phone call. He just wasn't getting what he wanted so the big gun went after it.

Rudy started his investigation in December 2018!

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Obama sure is quiet, and I definitely don't think we'll here a peep from him about Biden this week.

For good reason Ann, decent former presidents have the dignity to remain quiet during the next presidents term. We won't see an ounce of dignity when trump is no longer prez one year from now. Besides, if Obama spoke up about anything you trumpsters would jump all over him for it.....unless of course it was to praise trump.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

It doesn’t matter if quid pro quo existed for personal benefit only.

It only matters if there was any consideration of the personal benefit at all.

If I do something for three reasons, and one of those reasons is unethical, the action is wrong. It doesn’t matter how noble the other two reasons are, the unethical reason negates the noble ones.

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Kathy

Bolton traveled to Qatar last week. Is he solidifying his testimony if called?

https://bigleaguepolitics.com/video-former-national-security-adviser-john-bolton-caught-in-qatar/

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Ziemia(6a)

"Toby, regarding the letter: Giuliani investigating on behalf of Trump, as his personal attorney, is not proof that Trump wanted the investigation for personal reasons..."

Trump allowed & ordered the use of federal resources for this personal investigation.

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Ann

Vgkg, Obama isn't being quiet about Bernie. Just Biden.

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

Yeah Ann, I just now googled up that fox news report saying "Anonymous sources" saying "Obama said in private". Trumpsters always complain about that type of "journalism" when it's about trump. Btw, I was referring to public statements by former presidents about the present president.

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Kathy

To date, the Dems aren't able to prove that the investigations were for personal gain. But I agree with you, the difference between personal gain and benefit for the country is the central question.


Trump wasn’t asking for an investigation. He was asking for Zelensky to publicly announce on CNN an investigation into the Bidens. He didn’t care if it was actually investigated. How does that fit with he was looking at corruption? It means he was only interested in slandering Biden for his political advantage in 2020.

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mudhouse

The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you’re surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.

Kathy, this is from Trump's July 25 phone call. Read the words; Trump clearly asks Zelensky to "find out what happened" and "get to the bottom of it." He's not asking for an announcement in this phone call; not once.

Later testimony by others that Trump wanted an announcement does not make the above blink out of existence. And if that happened (I'll take your word for it, instead of taking the time to run it down myself) asking about an announcement would have been an intelligent way to make sure that Zelensky followed through. People are always more likely to complete an action after they've made a public statement saying they'll do so.

When people insist that Trump "didn't care if it was actually investigated" they're 1) ignoring the above memcon, and 2) engaging in mind reading.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Rudy started his investigation in December 2018!"

And when President Trump's "political rival," Joe Biden announce his run for the Presidency?


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Iris GW

But Trump applied his extortion in July 2019. That is the relevant date.

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lurker111

Bolton has been meeting with Schiff.

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Kathy

Sondlands testimony about investigation

Sondland is clear: “He didn’t actually have to do them, as I understood it.” There was never an ask for an actual investigation, just an announcement:

SCHIFF: And in order to perform that official act [a meeting in the Oval Office], Donald Trump wanted these two investigations that would help his reelection campaign, correct?

SONDLAND: I can’t characterize why he wanted them. All I can tell you is this is what we heard from Mr. Giuliani.

SCHIFF: But he had to get those two investigations if that official act was going to take place, correct?

SONDLAND: He had to announce the investigations. He didn’t actually have to do them, as I understood it.

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lurker111

Sondland just destroyed schiff's imagination. ^^^

"No, he didn't ask for an investigation. Period."

"As I understood it"

"I presumed everything"

"No one on this planet told me anything. I dreamed it all up."

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Kathy

“New poll says 82% of Americans want Bolton to testify for Trump's removal trial, including 70% of GOP. So GOP Senators have a choice to make. They can side w/American people or they can be traitors for life & side w/ Trump." Scott Dworkin

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Nana H

Looks like there won't be witnesses, as least at this moment. If that is what happens then the GOP are gong to have lots of 'splainin to do especially when Bolton's book comes out and the interviews start.

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queenmargo

Nana- do you know what Bolton's book revealed? Have you read it or the manuscript? Might just not be what you want it to be.

Might it be like the dossier?

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Kathy

Parnas has now implicated Lindsay Graham. If he has documents and tapes, it will all come out sooner or later.

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ubro(2a)

Bolton's lawyers have denied the WH claim that there is classified info in the book, and I am sure they can prove that.

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dandyfopp

It will all come out and the GOP response will be SO?

The rule of law was so very overrated.

Other countries get along just fine without it!

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Nana H

Bolton is smart enough and experienced enough to know what is classified. I wouldn't put it past Trump to classify things retroactively. Bolton doesn't strike me as the "stand by and take it" kinda guy. I suspect we will hear what he has to say one way or another.

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queenmargo

I guess that means you have not read the manuscript or read the book yet Nana?

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lurker111

Rumors, gossip, dreams, and lies. Daily supplements for the crats.

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adoptedbyhounds

"But Trump applied his extortion in July 2019. That is the relevant date."

I disagree. Articles of impeachment make no such allegation.


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Kitchenwitch111

Bolton's book is all lies, or is it classified information? Which is it?

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adoptedbyhounds

"Bolton's book is all lies, or is it classified information? Which is it?"

Could be a bit of both. No way of knowing. Has the NYT seen it? Seems ripe for an investigation to learn how the NYT got its hands on information in a book not yet cleared for publication.

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elvis

...or if they even did.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Please explain why the aid money for Ukraine was suddenly being held back, after years of approval? What changed?

Yesterday, Sekulow basically complained at length that the House's investigation was too rushed and somehow that means the Senate trial is taking too too much time.

And Sekulow 'threatening' to call Schiff & the Bidens as witnesses? How is that a threat? Does he think they are afraid of that? Does anybody? He's threatening to make the trial into a circus.

And the pretzel logic coming from Dershowitz about the president's thinking is plain koo-koo. Didn't someone here just argue that it's folly to try to determine what is in the president's mind?

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Nana H

The outcome of the trial is predetermined so the Republicans would rather get on with the " acquittal " than let Bolton testify ....and with good reason. However, Bolton' s story will come out and the American people who wanted the Senate to listen to him before reaching their verdict will be upset on both counts.

The GOP may win the battle but it may very well cost them the war.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Durbin making a statement to media right now saying McConnell saying the Senate needs to get back to 'business' is a joke, that last year, they debated 22 amendments and 6 were from Rand Paul and D.O.A., but he insisted on a vote before they could recess. So 1 more week is impeding?

Hirono just now: 'King Trump' is going after seniors and Social Security next & he's already let everyone know that.

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lurker111

Please explain why the aid money for Ukraine was suddenly being held back, after years of approval? What changed?

Their president.

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Ann

I'm enjoying how much Bolton is now being counted on to save the day for the Dems and nobody here has even seen the book. Heck, Mueller couldn't do it but, certainly, Bolton may win the "war" for them with a little help from Parnas tapes, lol:) Until it doesn't, but there will be 10 more supposed war winners by then. You know, all those many things/moves/tactics some people will discuss as to how they will "play" with the American people and toward the "big win".

I can't wait to see, if Trump wins the election, how the spin goes then. I imagine the narrative could shift to how Nancy will single handedly save the world (that smart cookie) until the Dems take over the Senate, House, and Presidency in 2024 - at which time the world will be able to be saved:)

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adoptedbyhounds

Please explain why the aid money for Ukraine was suddenly being held back, after years of approval? What changed?

Think it through.

What had just happened in Ukraine?

How were we to assess the new leadership?

What were the loan guarantees to be used for?

In what previous "years of approval" did the US provide access to the lethal weaponry Ukraine was about to receive?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Funny, WH counsel didn't really talk about that yesterday, or did they?

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ubro(2a)

And remember Trump did not actually want the investigation, he just wanted them to announce it. That fact alone should tell a person that he was doing it for personal gain.

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Iris GW

I'll believe that approach, adopted, when I see Trump hold up aid to Israel now that Netanyahu has been indicted for corruption.

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elvis

lurker111

Please explain why the aid money for Ukraine was suddenly being held back, after years of approval? What changed?

Their president.

She probably wasn't aware of that, lurker.

_____________

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Please explain why the aid money for Ukraine was suddenly being held back, after years of approval? What changed?

Think it through.

What had just happened in Ukraine?

How were we to assess the new leadership?

What were the loan guarantees to be used for?

In what previous "years of approval" did the US provide access to the lethal weaponry Ukraine was about to receive?

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Funny, WH counsel didn't really talk about that yesterday, or did they?

Yes, they did. You should either watch and listen to the proceedings, or, well.

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Kathy

Why didn’t Trump ask for any other corps to be investigated? There are numerous corrupt in Ukraine. He wanted Burisma and Bidens specifically. He wasnt interested in corruption. He was interested in Bidens.

Excuses excuses from Trump.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Funny, WH counsel didn't really talk about that yesterday, or did they?"

Carolb, You asked what changed. Have you figured it out yet?

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adoptedbyhounds

"Why didn’t Trump ask for any other corps to be investigated?"

How do you know he didn't?

Has Joe Biden bragged about getting other prosecutors fired for looking into other power companies?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

New poll says 82% of Americans want Bolton to testify for Trump's removal trial, including 70% of GOP.

GOP senators appear to be terrified of opposing Trump. Why?

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Kathy

We need to hear from Bolton his knowledge about how Trump was negotiating his “deals”

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Nana H

Because they know it will cost them their job , their political future and any chance of landing any lucrative lobbying jobs. Maybe even their safety.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Has Joe Biden bragged about getting other prosecutors fired for looking into other power companies?”

Fake News.

That prosecutor got fired for NOT looking into corruption.

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Nana H

Miss Lindsey absolutely true and verifiable. Biden , and American allies , wanted the prosecutor fired because he WASN'T investigating corruption but rather enabling it.

One of those annoying facts that some refuse to listen to because it doesn't fit their preferred narrative .

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

it will cost them their job

GOP senators risk the same with supporting Trump. They are playing with their political future as well as more information from Bolton and Parnas is revealed. The senators are cockeyed optimists if they believe no more revelations will be coming.

Does the GOP not remember the backlash against Republicans after Watergate? They have already had a taste of public dissatisfaction in the 2018 elections.

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Kathy

There are more tapes linking Parnas and Fruman to Trump at Maralago. The two men Trump claims he didn’t know.

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Ann

"GOP senators appear to be terrified of opposing Trump. Why?"

What specifically has made you think these senators "appear" to be terrified of opposing Trump. Is there something in their words or body language that has led you to this conclusion about their appearance of being terrified of opposing Trump?

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lurker111

A little rachael mixed with a case of schiffophrenia...never a good thing.

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Ann

"Because they know it will cost them their job , their political future and any chance of landing any lucrative lobbying jobs. Maybe even their safety. "

Oh wow! I hadn't read this far when I posed the previous question. Now, all of here "know" the answer:)

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lurker111

The aid for Ukraine is for the next 5 years. The aid was released in September for the last 2 years. There was no delay. Case closed.

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lurker111

These crats are the dirtiest people on Earth. Slimeballs.

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Ann

"GOP senators risk the same with supporting Trump. They are playing with their political future as well as more information from Bolton and Parnas is revealed. The senators are cockeyed optimists if they believe no more revelations will be coming."

Thanks for this Nancy. I was just about to pose this question to those stating that opposing Trump would result in all sorts of ramifications including "Maybe even their safety.". If Bolton info will supposedly out some important truth, wouldn't supporting Trump be precisely the wrong move for their political future?

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lurker111

It's a joke to listen to schiff complain about witnesses. That was his job. He's a failure and looking for someone to blame. Pathetic.

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lurker111

They need to get that clown away from the mic. He's making the left look totally insane.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

What specifically has made you think these senators "appear" to be terrified of opposing Trump.

High poll numbers supporting witnesses in the Senate, and still clutching to the no-witnesses mantra which benefits Trump -- and not their own reelection.

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adoptedbyhounds

"That prosecutor got fired for NOT looking into corruption."

Where's the evidence for that claim?

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Nana H

The GOP Senators in vulnerable seats are bewteen a rock and a hard place. Call Bolton and half the voters will turn on them. Don' t call Bolton and the other half will.

The thumb on the scale is Trump . He will decimate any Senator that supports calling Bolton. They won't stand a chance in Republican primaries.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

He will decimate any Senator that supports calling Bolton. They won't stand a chance in Republican primaries.

That is still assuming that the flow of revelations of manipulation and extortion will not continue. What good is winning a primary if the mood of the voters is anti-GOP.

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barncatz

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/03/politics/gop-senators-echoed-biden-on-ukraine-reforms-kfile/index.html

That prosecutor got fired for NOT looking into corruption."

Where's the evidence for that claim?

It's everywhere, abh, but the link I posted above went back to see what Republicans were saying AT THE TIME it happened. He


"...CNN's KFile found a February 2016 bipartisan letter signed by several Republican senators that urged then-Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to "press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary."...

In a June 2016 hearing before the Subcommittee on Europe, Eurasia, and Emerging Threats of the Committee, Alina Romanowski, then the State Department's coordinator of US Assistance to Europe and Eurasia, Bureau of European and Eurasian Affairs, testified that, "in Ukraine, President Poroshenko and the Rada replaced a Prosecutor-General widely seen as corrupt."

Romanski, who now serves as the Principal Deputy Coordinator for Counterterrorism at the Department of State, was nominated by the White House in July to be the Trump administration's ambassador to Kuwait...."

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elvis

nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

What specifically has made you think these senators "appear" to be terrified of opposing Trump.

High poll numbers supporting witnesses in the Senate, and still clutching to the no-witnesses mantra which benefits Trump -- and not their own reelection.

...or perhaps these senators are viewing the facts dispassionately, rather than with single-minded, strong dislike for Trump the person.

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lurker111

Too bad pelosi couldn't follow the law and hold a vote. It would have been a cakewalk for her. Too bad schiff didn't do his job and fight for witnesses in the house.

They really let their supporters down. The cookie is clueless.

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zmith

The House voted fcol! It passed Resolution 660 on 10/29/19.

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lurker111

lol

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zmith

Typical response, and exactly what I expected, lurker111. LOL

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ubro(2a)


lurker111

It's a joke to listen to schiff complain about witnesses. That was his job. He's a failure and looking for someone to blame. Pathetic.

It was the WH's job to comply with handing over the documents and letting the witnesses testify.

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lurker111

They weren't valid requests. Pay attention. :^)

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vgkg (Va Z-7)

New poll says 82% of Americans want Bolton to testify for Trump's removal trial, including 70% of GOP.

"GOP senators appear to be terrified of opposing Trump. Why?"

GOP senators don't want to be known as Pike Heads, they are scared to death of trump yet they pretended to be offended at the notion of him piking their collective heads, there's not a shred of profile in courage among them. If they bow to trump and refuse to call for witnesses then that 82% will put their heads on higher pikes than trump ever could, and trump's head too..

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Ann

"and not their own reelection"

I'd argue voting for witnesses in a sham impeachment could very well potentially harm their own reelection.

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Ann

"The GOP Senators in vulnerable seats are bewteen a rock and a hard place. Call Bolton and half the voters will turn on them. Don' t call Bolton and the other half will."

Or this entire witness conversation will be all but forgotten long before November and will have nothing to do with hardly any votes for senators.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

witnesses in a sham impeachment

The public doesn't seem to regard the impeachment as a sham. The percentage in favor of removing Trump from office is steadily increasing. The percentage favoring witnesses in the Senate is hard to dismiss.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

or perhaps these senators are viewing the facts dispassionately

A large segment of the public is not viewing the facts in the same way as the GOP senators.

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Ann

I think Dems tend to get extremely caught up in the moment. They always seem to be certain today's events are incredibly important to months from now. They react to Trump's every word and action instead of ever thinking ahead IMO. Trump, on the other hand, just keeps moving forward and leaving the Dems behind - while they stay stuck in the last thing.

Watch it happen yet again. If the impeachment ends Saturday, the Dems won't move on but will stay stuck on it and all the witness stuff, then Bolton's book, etc. They just won't be able to proceed away from it.

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queenmargo

Schiff has plans lined up looll lol

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Trump, on the other hand, just keeps moving forward and leaving the Dems behind

More than Democrats are being left behind:

Manafort

Cohen

Flynn

Fruman

Gates

Papadopoulos

Stone

Giuliani is under investigation, and Parnas is fighting back.



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chipotle

Ann, you bet your bottom dollar this isn't going to end. A coverup by the party of Trump will never sit well with an educated public.

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Nana H

Majority opinion matters not. It's as if it doesn't even exist. Only he who must be believed can be trusted to save the nation. We must put ourselves in his hands and follow him unquestioningly. Only he can fix it.

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Kathy

Ann, why is it Trump can’t move ahead from Obama? He is working like crazy to obliterate everything about Obama and even Michelle. It’s obvious he can’t get over Obama being President.

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Kitchenwitch111

Trump supporters, like Trump, are a little full of their own importance. There is a majority of the American public (as well as the rest of the world) that believe that Trump is guilty as charged and can’t wait to get rid of him.

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ubro(2a)

The public doesn't seem to regard the impeachment as a sham. The percentage in favor of removing Trump from office is steadily increasing. The percentage favoring witnesses in the Senate is hard to dismiss.

So, because the GOP and the POTUS think the impeachment is a sham they get to ignore it? Gee that is a great defence if you are caught doing a crime, "your honour, I will not participate because I think this trial is a sham"

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queenmargo

He is working like crazy to obliterate everything about Obama and even Michelle. It’s obvious he can’t get over Obama being President.

Yay!

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paprikash


Trump supporters, like Trump, are a little full of their own importance. There is a majority of the American public (as well as the rest of the world) that believe that Trump is guilty as charged and can’t wait to get rid of him.

————

well, if American voters can’t wait to get rid of him, he’ll lose the election in November. Problem solved.

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Ann

"well, if American voters can’t wait to get rid of him, he’ll lose the election in November. Problem solved."

Exactly! The voters should and get to decide.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If the final arbiter of presidential wrong doing is elections -- bad guy voted out -- the framers of the US Constitution would not have included impeachment as a means of removing a sitting president.

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elvis

Nana H

Majority opinion matters not. It's as if it doesn't even exist. Only he who must be believed can be trusted to save the nation. We must put ourselves in his hands and follow him unquestioningly. Only he can fix it.

What do you mean, "we must put ourselves in his hands and follow him"? You're a Canadian citizen. You do realize you can't vote here?

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HU-885118952

elvis, we should put ourselves in the hands of this man instead.


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Stan Areted

First time reading this thread

Creeped out by TDS. It is more concerning than corona virus!

Just relax and enjoy America Being Great Again is my advice!


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Stan Areted

Oh now I am even MORE creeped out by that fake little angelic face.

If only he were half the leader we now have, his country, too, could gain importance and therefore advice from all sorts of citizens of the world!

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Just relax and enjoy America Being Great Again is my advice!”

That’s a really frightening sentiment. Can a nation’s integrity really be purchased for so little?

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queenmargo

That’s a really frightening sentiment. Can a nation’s integrity really be purchased for so little?

No purchase was necessary, we just voted at the ballot box;)

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HU-885118952

margo- apparently purchasing is necessary for Democrat votes. They are trying to buy votes with their promises of free everything.

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Kathy

Let’s talk about Trump calling in the Senators and his support of their campaigns. He even had a rah rah today before the impeachment trial. How’s that for unbiased?Even his lawyers were contributors to republican Senators.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

I think you missed my point queenmargo.

I’m frightened by the idea of complacency to bad behaviour or outright criminality for the sake of a few points on the Dow and a tax break.

Institutional or personal relaxation about a President’s misdeeds just because he improved the economy means he has purchased the nation’s or individual’s integrity.

I think we have enough evidence now—with the way he defrauded investors and stole from his charities and duped students of his “university” and stiffed contractors—to know that he isn’t a very nice guy. That is apart from the Impeachment case which of course is still undecided.

I don’t intend to “relax” because I can’t enjoy the economic benefits, knowing what the cost was.

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Kathy

It’s only free if you are in the top 1% The rest of us have to pay our way.

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queenmargo

I think you missed my point queenmargo.

I’m frightened by the idea of complacency to bad behaviour or outright criminality for the sake of a few points on the Dow and a tax break.

Oh no miss lindsey, there is much more on the line with keeping Trump as President than a few points on the Dow and a tax break. We are fighting to keep our country. Trump supporters realize we are at the brink of distinction if we let a socialist/globalist get in the White House. I can hear the rally crowds chanting USA USA USA....We want to hold on to the title " Land of the Free and Home of the Brave" ;)

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So everybody should just wait until the presidential election? The one Mr. Trump has been trying to rig?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

If Trump is the only person who can keep America free and brave, what happens in 2024?

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Ann

Great comment Margo and exactly right!

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Stan Areted

Thank you, Queen Margo for MAGA 'splainin for the umpteenth time

Some aren't using their listening ears!

FIRST OFF SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.


Many more-- too many triumphs and corrections to bad past presidential decisions to name!



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Ann

"If Trump is the only person who can keep America free and brave, what happens in 2024?"

Margo said nothing about the "only person" and you'll clearly see that if you reread. But, I'll answer your question about 2024. We'll hope like crazy that we have some great candidates who can also keep America free and brave.

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queenmargo

If Trump is the only person who can keep America free and brave, what happens in 2024?

I did not say Trump was the only person to keep America free and brave, hopefully after 8 years many Republicans will have got the message.

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queenmargo

LOL- Ann, we crossed with almost the same thoughts;)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Oh no miss lindsey, there is much more on the line with keeping Trump as President than a few points on the Dow and a tax break. We are fighting to keep our country.”

My mistake. I thought this meant that keeping the country requires Trump to be President.

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queenmargo

Yes, Trump to be President until his term runs out. Two terms, 8 years.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

And I say that four more years of over looking criminality and corruption is not worth whatever perceived benefit is gained.

I thought there must be other conservative minded politicians who value America’s place as a unique entity in the world AND do not rip people off at every turn.

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Ann

"My mistake. I thought this meant that keeping the country requires Trump to be President."

Definitely doesn't mean only Trump, but with that said and considering one of our previous discussions, Trump and Pence are not the same man and are not interchangeable. In 2024, the voters in the primary process will choose the GOP nominee - and that person won't just be any person who is a Republican:) It will be the person the primary voters choose, exactly like it was in 2016.

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Ann

Lol, Lindsey, we overlapped and both of us were remembering a previous debate about interchangeability:)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Is there any reason the GOP couldn’t have cut Trump loose in 2020 and nominated a different candidate?

No? Because they like Trump?

THAT is what frightens me.

(edit: we did overlap and I do remember our previous convo wrt Pence but in fact I wasn’t even thinking of impeachment at all in this case. I just can’t wrap my head around the continued support of Trump as a man given what we know about his business dealings and how he conducts his business and private affairs.)

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queenmargo

Why would the GOP cut Trump loose?

Face your fears, many who do find they had nothing to fear but fear itself;)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

And some who fear have turned out to be sadly justified in doing so.

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queenmargo

Fair enough. I will let you live in fear if you let me live not in fear of Trump. We have made our choices. I have much bigger fears than any one who is President. I feared Obama and survived.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

You’re confused.

I do not fear Trump.

I fear the ideology that says “just relax and enjoy it” as though there is any perceived benefit that makes corruption worth it.

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Stan Areted

What corruption?

Where is the conviction for corruption?

Same place as "collusion" and "quid pro quo?"

Same place as Fast and Furious?

Libya?

Drones?

Lyndon Johnson Deals?

FDR?

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queenmargo

I just can’t wrap my head around the continued support of Trump as a man given what we know about his business dealings and how he conducts his business and private affairs.)

Yes, I use to think this about Bill Clinton. I never could understand how he had continued support after all the women he sexually abused and the whole Monica Lewinsky scandal. Despite all his scandals, lying under oath, etc... he still has continued support?

Trump was a shrewd businessman. He admits he used the loopholes the government provided.

His private affairs mean nothing to me. I have not heard of anything while he has been President. What he did before is of no concern to me.

Sorry, if this disappoints or is "telling".

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Stan honestly can you look at his business and personal dealings and say “yep, this is an honest man. I would be proud for my son to be like him”?

I look at his past business dealings, the times when courts have forced him to pay restitution to the people he’s harmed personally and in business, the fines he’s accrued for the times he’s defrauded people who put their trust in him, and I think I would be horrified if my child turned out like that.

I just can’t relax into complacency where Donald Trump is concerned.

We all know that a lack of criminal conviction does NOT mean that no crime has been committed.

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elvis

This impeachment is about far more than the dems' dislike of this particular president. What is of paramount importance is preserving the balance of power between our (we US citizens) three separate and equal branches of government.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

can you look at his business and personal dealings and say “yep, this is an honest man. I would be proud for my son to be like him”

Trump University

Trump Foundation

Taj Mahal multiple bankruptcies

Just for three quick examples . . .

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Ann

"cut Trump loose in 2020"

Why would anyone want to cut the elected president loose? He was elected by the people.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

There is no guarantee that the incumbent will get the nomination for re-election. It’s a nicety, not a requirement.

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Ann

Lindsey, maybe you would have a better understanding of this situation if you read some history of this. I don't believe what you are suggesting has ever occurred in our history - with a president who was elected (not including those who took over a presidency due to the death of a president). Conversations with you about this seem to indicate it would almost be no big deal in your opinion. It may not be a requirement, but it would be a very odd first - and a really big deal.

ETA: An especially big deal (actually, a ridiculous deal) with a president who has huge support (somewhere around 90%) of his party.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

So? If it’s not constitutionally forbidden, it can be done.

Yes, he has support in his party. That’s telling.

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Ann

You bet it's telling. I think it blows your theory out of the water. Why would any party who strongly supports the president of their party want to "cut" them "loose"? I think you might be somehow thinking other people agree with your opinion of President Trump, when in fact, many don't at all. Many of us (including me) think he's doing a fantastic job as president. His many accomplishments are quite impressive and by many, quite noticed and quite appreciated.

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Kathy

What is of paramount importance is preserving the balance of power between our (we US citizens) three separate and equal branches of government.</