Josh,
One thing to know is your ceiling closed up or is it unfinished? If it is unfinished; open to see floor joist and ducts, I might consider using a special noice reducing insulation and then close up the ceiling with drywall. If it is already sealed you can add a 2nd layer of drywall but use 1x2 furring strips in between the too layers which just ads a space for a bit more sound absorption. I am not sure but maybe there is a sound absorption foam insulation board that could be put in between the layers of drywall. I would also make sure you have plenty of soft elements in your space; meaning area rugs, soft window shades or draperies, or even stretched canvas artwork. Soft elements absorb sound and hard elements just cause the sounds to bounce around more. It makes me wonder if your neighbors have any area rugs ;). Good luck.

Noise transmission is to be expected in "up-down" living situations. A "noise complaint" normally comes from blaring music at 3am. That's what would drive a noise complaint. Or people screaming at the top of their lungs at any time during the day or night. The 'normal' noises associated with condo/apartment living (such as most of what you describe) would not bring about a complaint.

Ideally you stop the noise at the source. Because you can hear footsteps, I'm going to guess these units have 'hard' surfaces. Carpet would eat most of the bothersome noises.

The thing that is missing from your concerns is vocal noise. It sounds like you cannot hear full conversations (unless they are screaming at each other). This is what drives most vocal noise complaints.

So it sounds like there is the basic acoustic insulation for a multifamily unit building. The price of the condo usually indicates the level of the build. A $100K condo will not have the same insulation as $1M condo.

What can be done on your end: Ceiling insulation. That's about it. And that has to be approved by the condo association if it alters the envelope of your unit. As for a price tag, a retrofit (adding stuff after all the finishings are in place) is always a bit more expensive than a build that already takes this into consideration.

For a basic ceiling insulation = $5/sf. For a complicated ceiling = $10/sf. If you have your heart set on this, please bring in a company that ONLY does acoustic insulation. They will be well worth the money.

Or you could offer to pay for your upstairs neighbors to get new flooring (she says with tongue firmly in cheek).

Is there any regulation with your condo association regarding the % of floor that must have carpet for this reason?

@Interior Re-styling: Ceiling is finished. My flooring currently is all carpet. I am thinking of offering my neighbor to pay for the area rugs with an acoustic nonslip padding.

@SJ McCarthy: It is a Toll brothers construction from early 2000’s (2003-2004), and were sold for $270 per sft. Currently these condos go for upwards of 700K ($460 per sft)in the Bay Area. Upstairs neighbor seems to be cooperative, he is receiving my concerns with no hard feelings.

@Tracy Woods: Only kitchen and bathrooms are allowed to have tile or vinyl flooring. But from the neighbor’s condo’s Zillow photos, they have extended area of tile flooring, in their dining area etc.

@SJ McCarthy can probably answer this question better than I can. What is that sound proof barrier under tile called? Is it a cork layer? Sound deadening vinyl? I don't remember at the moment. Pretty sure there is something that regulates the sound that is laid under tile before the tile is installed.

OP check your condo docs. Usually there is a requirement to put a soundproof barrier of some sort under the tile when you are in the upper floors to prevent exactly what you describe. I wouldn't be surprised if there is nothing under the tile - since he was so bold as to extend the boundaries of the tile or vinyl. Some condo owners try to get away with not installing the sound deadening part in order to save on the installation and material costs. He would have had to get approval from the COA if the work was done after the unit was built. Check with your COA to see if the approval was granted before you make any offer to your neighbor.

You said the upstairs neighbor is cooperative. See if he will take you up on your offer (if he had condo approval) to contribute $X toward area rugs or a complete installation of wall to wall.

Have you physically been in his place. It could be different from the Zillow pics now.

@Denita I didn’t physically go see his condo. I will talk to him and see what he thinks about my idea, if the HOA doesn’t want to do anything about it.
Currently I am talking to the HOA, they asked me for some audio recordings. I recorded some using my MacBook and my iPhone. I hope that gives them a better idea and will look into it.

The sound deadening membranes underneath tile would be A) mass-loaded vinyl, or B) 12mm cork underlayment.

The HOA HAS to look into the TILE install of the owner. HAS TO! You can make a formal request stating that you believe an owner has gone against HOA mandates and has extended the tile.

They MUST investigate this. Must. It is their job description. Don't tell them about 'noise'. Tell them about the TILE EXTENSION. Get hold of the HOA doc that states tile is only allowed in kitchens, baths and entrance ways. It will have a 'section' and a 'number' to it. In your letter/email to them (do both because you an ensure they received the email and opened it) you will QUOTE the section the neighbor has transgressed.

I would cc a copy to the HOA's boss (these HOAs are normally large corporations who deal with these types of things). Here's a true story that brings us to the whole point of complaining about the EXTENDED TILE:

I had a client who installed laminate throughout their $900K condo (that's a 2 bed 700sf unit in Vancouver BC). They did NOT ask to permission from the Condo Board (that's the Canadian variant of HOA). They removed the wall-to-wall and installed their laminate with just a thin $0.20/sf foam underlay from HD.

They got caught because neighbors below heard the construction noise and asked if the unit was ALLOWED to have construction going on...no one received a notice about construction.

The condo board investigated and found a newly installed laminate floor. They demanded to see the purchase order and PROOF of noise abatement underlayment. The homeowner did NOT have proof therefore he was in violation of the board. He had 30 days to remove/replace laminate with carpet OR remove the underlay and install a DOCUMENTED noise reducing underlayment.

The homeowner turned to my cork underlay. Homeowner was HOPING for 3mm (1/8") cork...'cause it was the cheapest. I looked at the STC/IIC ratings for rigid flooring and he needed 12mm (1/4") cork underlayment.

He had to spend another $1.50/sf on the cork underlay, remove the laminate (purchase more because he lost 20% due do damage caused by removal), install the cork and then reinstall his laminate.

But wait! The DOORS DON'T CLOSE! The cork (1/2") + laminate (1/2") was TOO HIGH for all doors in the home...including the entrance door (which is metal). His hell just got hotter! He then spent another $5,000 on a new front door (metal fire door) and another $3,000 having his interior doors cut down and rehung.

Long story short...the homeowner who does things WITHOUT permission will find themselves in legal/financial hot water with an HOA or Condo Board.

All you have to do is ask to see the minutes of a meeting allowing an extension to the tile in that unit (which is your LEGAL RIGHT to see...it's YOUR HOA! It belongs to YOU!). And you have the right to view the CONSTRUCTION notice put out for that unit. And you have the RIGHT to view the DOCUMENTS indicating the tiled area has the appropriate noise abatement underlay for the tile.

This is your right. My suspicion is this: the HOA dropped the ball and did NOT do their due diligence on the tile extension. And now they want YOU to prove that YOU have issues with THEIR MISHANDLING of a flooring extension (which is not allowed without EXTENSIVE costs to the unit owner).

@SJ McCarthy Perfect illustration of what I was trying to convey.

Now, this is a little pet peeve of mine, there is a difference between a COA (Condo Owners Assn) and an HOA (Homeowners Assn). They are two different types of ownership and two sections of the law in most US states (possibly all states, but I haven't personally checked). The condo associations have much greater power than even an HOA. HOA's and COA's have a tendency to be used interchangeably when they are not the same. One of the big differences is typically the land on which the property sits. IOW's condo's don't have any land associated with an individual unit and in an HOA the owner of he property owns the land too as described in the individual deed. There are more differences but that's an easy way to think of it. Off soap box now.

OP is in a COA if they own a condo. It would not be governed by an HOA. But the process SJ McCarthy describes is right for COA's too.

@SJ McCarthy and @Denita: I think the upstairs neighbor bought the condo that way. Not sure how HOA can force him to remove the floor he hasn't put.

I remembered from the disclosure from the seller, they had to repair part of our ceiling due to a plumbing leak that happened last year above our kitchen/living room. HOA got the repair done. Do you think those guys did not repair it well enough that might be causing the issue? How do we know if they did the job right?

That repaired ceiling is only under part of their tiled floor. However, noise problem seem to be on all the area that is right below their tiled floor. Me and my wife are starting to think this is a not a good investment anymore. We bought this condo thinking this would be our investment property few years down the line which we can rent it out and move to a bigger house . But these noise issues make me feel if anyone will ever rent it :(

If you review your condo documents again, there will be a section that defines the condo envelope and who is responsible for what maintenance. Owner or COA. Based on what you posted, the ceiling is a COA responsibility. It doesn't sound like the noise is connected to the repair but connected to the tile floor installation. Naturally you would have to have the COA investigate. It's easy from this side of the keyboard to make assumptions but someone has to actually go to the unit and check it out.

I don't think the condo assn would have a problem forcing him to correct it as he is the current owner and the installation would have to have been approved by the COA. That's the whole point of having rules. If someone decided to skip over the approval part or change the installation and not get penalized for it what would be the purpose of having the rules in the first place? In my area, the COA's and HOA's also have the ability to fine the owner for non-compliance. If the correction isn't made and the fine paid, they can lien the unit. If still not paid, the COA or HOA can foreclose, even if there is a mortgage on the unit. It's very serious business.

Even if the upstairs owner purchased it with this defect, your path to remedy is through the COA like your condo docs and SJ McCarthy states. Your neighbor may or may not have a remedy against his seller. I have no idea because I'm not an attorney.

Having noise issues might affect the rental. Depends on the rental market in your area. Most people would choose not to live under a lot of noise. Others may not notice due to their own lifestyle eg hearing loss, loud TV's, other occupants, etc.

This is what I am dealing with. Please listen to the whole video, it starts mild and gets worse. Use earphones/headphones to listen to it as most footfalls are low frequency noises.

@SJ McCarthy:

The video I sent is only footfall noises.

Sorry if I misunderstood, AP meaning an App on phone? or is it a specific audio device?

The App is for a phone. You can down load one without issue. The better one's cost a little bit of money...but certainly worth it.

I downloaded DB Meter app and Decibel X app on my iPhone. Do you know which one of these is better or if there is some other app you prefer do let me know? Thank you.

Use both and compare the results. With hand held items like this the effect is only as good as the recording device and the microphone (ahem...the phone itself).

Start recording on each one and keep a tally. You want as many data points as possible using each app. Then you can compare the readings.

Again, I'm not convinced the foot steps are going to register a level that is big enough to order a full investigation.

Up-down living situations include footsteps. Unless you have some massive intrusion (you have to star yelling to one another to hear each other in the same room) you will most likely pick up average noise ratings.

So, I worked with my neighbor to figure what actual noises transfer downstairs and these are the results.
First two images are sound in DB calculated when neighbor moved a dining chair (y-axis is db)

1. 2inches from chair moving.
2. Downstairs in our unit.

Next two images are db heard on counter top impacts in increasing low to high impact order. Neighbor putting a plastic bottle on their counter top.

1. 2 inches from impact
2. Downstairs

Disclaimer: the x axis might not match, because downstairs decibelX app was on longer than upstairs.

If some graphs are difficult to read, here are sound levels:
2 inches from chair, sound is 60 dB, Downstairs it is heard over 45dB.

2inches from counter top impact is heard lowest at 50DB lowest to over 70dB highest. While it is heard downstairs between 38dB to 48dB.

Update: I also gave neighbor $500 check to buy runners with pads, cabinet door dampers and anything that can help improve situation etc.

I think that “Toll Brothers” who claim to be “America’s luxury home builder”, is bs. They are just luxury to look at, but build quality seems subpar 😞. Our life’s biggest investment seems like we flushed it down the drain 😞.

@ Jash - Wow! Good work my fellow scientist.

You have just PROVEN the floor-ceiling assembly is offering 15 - 20 dB worth of sound insulation. In my books, that is SUBPAR for a HOUSE construction (up-down living in a house with your family members).

In a condo/apartment setting this is well below the norm ever for low-income or government assisted housing requirements. In Canada we have sound rating requirements that MUST be met for floor-ceiling assemblies.

Even in a government run housing unit the floor-ceiling assembly has to reduce impact noise by 30dB or more. The link will show you what I'm talking about...view page 62 of the document or 65 in the browser (which ever one is easier to get to).

https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/noise-control-manual.pdf

Point 11 in the chart shows a poured concrete suspended slab (concrete high rise more than 5 stories high) is the important one (although you have not told us if this is a concrete or wood framed building):

In essence it says a noise recorded at the source between 52-55 dB is reduced to 27-35 dB in the unit below is TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE party floor (shared floor-ceiling assembly).

To be clear, the recording device in the LOWER unit will be sitting on the FLOOR and not in someone's hand or on a counter top...but that's probably not an issue.

What is interesting: the document speaks about CARPET adding 25 - 50 dB worth of impact noise reduction in such a situation. That means the EXTENDED TILE is doing everything we thought it was doing....making your life miserable.

Don't offer to pay for area rugs for the neighbor upstairs...ask the building managers to make the owners remove the extended tile.

You could also insulate electrical outlets to cut down noise.

@SJ McCarthy: I have some updates and questions.
Updates:

1. I wrote an email to the HOA with all the above information and asking to address the issue, also cc’d my neighbor. Also met HOA in person and asked them to address it. They said all they can do is ask my neighbor to remove their extended tile flooring.
2. I already gave a check to my neighbor to buy runners, soft close dampers etc. I just want to make sure I be nice to the neighbor and make him be cooperative.
   Questions:
3. Let’s say the neighbor puts rugs all over the extended tile area, how will the counter top impact noises go away?
4. Tiles in the kitchen also seem to create the same level of noise. So, how will we know those tiles are built according to code?

@SJ McCarthy: I have some updates and questions.
Updates:

1. I wrote an email to the HOA with all the above information and asking to address the issue, also cc’d my neighbor. Also met HOA in person and asked them to address it. They said all they can do is ask my neighbor to remove their extended tile flooring.
2. I already gave a check to my neighbor to buy runners, soft close dampers etc. I just want to make sure I be nice to the neighbor and make him be cooperative.
   Questions:
3. Let’s say the neighbor puts rugs all over the extended tile area, how will the counter top impact noises go away?
4. Tiles in the kitchen also seem to create the same level of noise. So, how will we know those tiles are built according to code?

You will need to find the noise abatement requirements for YOUR city (the one's I listed are for Vancouver BC, Canada). You will need this document to use as a starting point.

If you really want to go this route, you will be putting money up front which might come back to you at a later time...it might not.

Once you have CONFIRMATION that your city ordinances SPECIFICALLY require a noise abatement assessment/building construction that REQUIRES all buildings of YOUR construction (we still don't know what type of building, how many stories, etc) you can move ahead to the next step.

With this type of document (city building ordinances for your type of building) you can then REQUIRE the condo board to investigate your recordings. They may not. If they do not, let them know that you will arrange for an in-unit acoustic recording (called a Field Test or F-STC/F-IIC recording). This requires access to your upstairs neighbor's space for the professional recording.

An acoustic company will come in and use a tapping machine in the neighbor's unit (on different surfaces but generally on the floor). Directly below the tapping machine, they will place their microphone on the floor of your unit.

Measurements (much like yours) will be made and a document including full scientific documentation (thickness of subfloors, flooring material, underlayment, ceiling construction, pot lights - if any - etc).

You will pay for their services (as much as a couple thousand dollars) and you will then be free to pursue the matter as you see fit.

Personally I would get a QUOTE from an acoustic company and use that to persuade the condo board to pay for it out of their budget. If they won't pay for it, you want it in writing that they will COMPENSATE YOU should the recordings indicate the building (your unit) FAILS the city ordinance requirements.

Be VERY aware this could end up costing every single person in the building a 'special budget' project. Imagine what would happen if you are correct...and the units do NOT meet the ordinance requirements. It isn't just your unit that will be affected. Every single unit in the building *might require investigation (imagine a few thousand dollars per unit to investigate the entire building).

At the end of it, the association decides to pay for noise mitigation in all the units...one at a time. As they become available on the market.

It is possible a retrofit could cost $10 - $15/sf for CEILING work. It gets more expensive if they also require under-flooring work as well.

Please be VERY aware of the consequences. This is a can of worms that could get bigger, and slimier and nastier and bring about the intense dislike of people you need to live with and around for many years to come.

This is Pandora's Box. And I don't mean the cutesy mall outlets that sell cheap bling.

I think it’s easier to move to a house. You’d always hear something in a condo.

Hearing something sometimes is different from hearing every time my neighbor walks/closes-cabinet/door/puts something on counter top is a different thing.
Also, it is not that easy to move out of a condo that is bought. Means a loss of close to $50k if sold at same price.

Can you rent it out to pay for the mortgage, and rent or buy a house for quiet and peaceful living? That’s too much stress living with all the noises you hardly can bare. Life is short, live as peaceful as you can.

Jash, when did you buy it?

Have the prices changed since your purchase? Check with your Realtor to see what the recent sales have been in the building and surrounding areas.

Sell it for long term happiness. Get something that doesn't have a neighbor above you if possible - townhome, villa, single family.

@ Jash...you will need to ask yourself if you are willing to pay for:

1. The Acoustic Field Testing for your unit ($2K - $5K for the test + report)

2. The Ceiling Retrofit for your unit ($10 - $15/sf depending on ceiling construction)

If you do not wish to pay for these two items, you may not wish to continue with the action. If you are determined to figure out how to deal with the noise, I highly recommend you invest in an Acoustic Field Test for your unit. With a price of a few thousand dollars you will have an answer (as to how loud things really are) that could stand up in court.

The question becomes, what will YOU do with the document? Are you WILLING to push this to the limit and force the HOA to make a ruling stating that the neighbor's flooring must return to the original footprint at the time of the build?

If you do NOT want to push that hard, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to pay for the ceiling work in your own unit? Because that is the only other option you have - save selling the unit and moving out.

Please ask yourself how FAR you will push the issue, how much you are WILLING to pay to get some answers and then how far are you willing to push (legally) to have someone else retrofit their space so that you can live comfortably.

I want to live peacefully. A thump here and there is ok. But hearing even stuff they put on counter top or they pulling fridge drawer is insane.
Flooring is only one aspect. Unless it’s a construction issue, how come we hear even if they put a can of coke on their counter top. So, my main aim is for HoA to fix such things. I understand extended flooring can be solved by runners and rugs to the most extent, and I gave the neighbor a check to address that.

If you wish for the HOA to pay for it, you will need to pay for the Acoustic Field Test to show that you are not making it up.

Of course, once the HOA has to pay for something they require each and every unit to pay a fee to differ costs. Your issue becomes everyone else's issues whether that is your intention or not. That's how condo living works. When one person has a 'building issue' (like leaky windows or a faulty roof) everyone pays for the work - the unit's homeowner included.

Sounds like it would be easier if your neighbors WANTED to soundproof. I once had neighbors who were loud, in a poorly built apartment complex. I solved the problem asking them about their friend (whom they often discussed) commenting on the TV programs they watched, even using an awful nickname that the husband called his wife. (He didn't like her pajamas and said she looked like Nanuck of the North when she came to bed.) It was when I casually called her Nanuck when we passed in the hallway that did it. They must have lived whispering and using headphones, because we never heard anything after that.

Maybe you can casually comment to your neighbors that they sure do drink a lot of soda, that you heard them walking a lot to and from the bathroom and hope their stomach problems aren't serious, that you noticed they got new shoes, etc.

Hi @Jash Nate

I just bought a condo from Toll Brothers (brand new) and I am having the same issue with the noise from my neighbors upstairs. I can hear all the footsteps and water pipes (when flushing the toilet). They do have hardwood floors. I cannot hear voices though.

Did you solved your issue? What recommendation could you provide me?

Thank you!

Carla