What about the fact that the wall is probably load bearing?

@millworkman I have structural designs to implement these options as shown

@User Thanks! I hear you, but the current situation doesn't work for the way we live and host, and an island doesn't work well with the current floorplan, so we're committed to a more open plan.

Can you do a combination of both? Keep the entrance door height into the kitchen and dining room. Then have the dividing wall die into the top of the door opening. Does that make sense?

Then you can keep the ceiling detail of the dining room in tact but avoid the strange double door entry into the space. A loose interpretation of something similar to this ceiling-detail idea:

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Don’t tank the value of that home with a remuddle. It’s not a 90’s McMansion. Don’t try to make it one. It has a history that should be honored. The dining room needs to remain separate. And save 15-20K on resupporting the whole balloon framed house, and reweaving all those floors with antique sourced wood, and all of the electrical, etc..

You don’t need an island to have a functional kitchen with seating. You just need a better design than whatever thing that the local cabinet seller came up with. That’s a wide galley kitchen, all day long. It’s an incredibly efficient layout, if done correctly.

@User That's a terrific idea, and the pictures are helpful, thanks! As it turns out, we may need to conceal a beam so that would work well.

As you can see, there is this odd aspect to the entry in that one side is angled, but I've toyed with making it straight (See floorpan below), so maybe I can adapt that idea to this.

What do you think about the curved ceiling issue - putting in a coved ceiling into the kitchen?

I would definitely try to match the coved ceiling in the kitchen. Anything that makes the kitchen add-on feel more true to the period of the home should be a major goal. I would also try to match the window detailing as well. I would also look into recessed cabinets for the kitchen which are more period correct.

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Where is the home located? Have you gotten any quotes for all of this destruction and rebuilding of the structure yet? Separate from the actual kitchen redo portion? Does the home have a modern electrical panel with no knob and tube? Has all galvanized plumbing been eliminated? Does it have a modern HVAC system? What about insulation? Windows? Foundation? Roof?

There is no way that spending money on removing original details like that is as wise a choice as spending it on any of the above. It is 100% guaranteed to negatively impact people’s perception of the home though. People buy old houses precisely because they are old houses. Not in order to make them into not even new ones while there is still untended to actual modernization needed.

Don’t confuse the ridiculous real estate money losing term of “updating” with “modernizing”. The two are not the same.

What a LOVELY dining space! I used to own a home from 1905! She was a pretty little Victorian doll house (1.5 stories). How I LOVED my separated spaces. Sigh. I wish houses today would bring back the separated space. It is a quieter way to live (literally)...try watching TV in a great room while the water is boiling, the kettle is whistling, the kids are arguing over who's got the right to the built-in desk, and the overhead fan is on 'high' and the person in the kitchen is skyping with dad to get the glaze to work!

OK...my suggestion is this: be prepared to lose ALL of the dining room character and all the original accents. That includes the wall paper.

I don't want to be a Debby Downer, but that is the reality of demolition. With these old Gals the hidden gems are INSIDE the walls. And as soon as something is disturbed it must be brought up to code. And once you START finding things, you won't STOP finding things until you gut the space.

I understand you want more flow. I get that. I can see that is what you are after. Please be aware that you run a HUGE risk with the original finishings. Please take a breath and ask yourself, "How upset will I be WHEN things go wrong and I lose EVERYTHING I like about the dining room?"

That's your answer. And yes...you will need a big beam. Most of these Victorians require all their walls to keep the roof away from the basement.

What’s the blue painters tape for?

And such a shame to ruin a perfectly lovely old house in such a fashion :(

@Glo,

My MIL did exactly what you suggested to eliminate dualing entries into her kitchen from the dining room and living room and it works perfectly. There is still separation of the spaces but it flows MUCH better.

To the OP, I think opening the wall up would be a great idea and would not "ruin" anything. If a future owner wants separate spaces, they can put the wall back ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Ever read the Old House Journal (the Bible of old house owners)? They have a page each month where they highlight what they refer to as a "remuddled" house (these are exterior remuddles though). With what you are envisioning, you will be "remuddling" the interior of a lovely old house. Future buyers or owners will be scratching their heads thinking to themselves, "What in the world were those people thinking?"

I think you need to go back to square one and completely re-think this entire idea. Yes, maybe your house doesn't meet the standards of today's HGTV living with the constant harping about "open concept". But, you chose to invest in a lovely old house. Do what you can to retain the charm of that house. Rather than destroying the character-filled dining room, figure out how to add period character to the character-less kitchen. A more modest 4' opening that is framed with appropriate trim work between the two rooms could maybe work, but anything more than that is period-inappropriate and will come back to bite you eventually.

Those great windows demand a nice sink in front of them. The long wall is perfect for a nice sized range. This space has so much potential! And it really doesn’t need an island to create good work flow. Leaving the wall allows cabinets to be placed on it. You’d get more storage, and a better kitchen!

I have to agree with others who say don't take out the wall. The rooms are so nice and big already, you really don't need it to have two super functional spaces.

That said I *am* currently opening up the equivalent dining room/kitchen wall in my much smaller 1910 foursquare layout house. My kitchen and dining room are each only 9' wide, I was set on having a place that someone could perch and chat with me while I was cooking, and a peninsula overlooking the dining room was the only way to make it work. We're doing this sort of thing:

If you do go for it, I like the cased opening. Or what about just widening the doorway a little bit?

What about opening things up between them, but with a smaller opening with french doors (either traditional or pocket, if they can be retrofitted)? That way you would still preserve the feel of separate spaces, as well as the ability to close them off when you want to, while still getting a much more open flow between the rooms.

Ooh, I love the idea of pocket doors and that would definitely be in keeping with the era of the house!

Lovely home. I took out our wall between kitchen and dining room (1930s house) since the rooms were small and the kitchen dark, and one thing that I hadn't thought of up front was matching original millwork. It has to be all custom made to match. Pretty pricey.

If you want open concept you should move, not destroy a beautiful old lady.

And yes when you go to sell,you will lower the market because people who want old houses, want them preserved with the old details. I know. I had an 1898 victorian and it wasn’t open concept

I'm still trying to get my brain around the structural changes that are going to need to be made to open a big hole in what was originally an exterior wall.

Mongo beam - check

Tearing off the addition to put in the beam, then putting the addition back?

Beefier foundation?

The mind boggles.

I looks like there isn't a door directly from the kitchen to the dining room. That alone makes me wonder about the issues with punching a hole in that wall.

I agree with cpartist. You own the wrong home.

Post a floor plan how the house is now. There might be another solution.

The floor plan will show if there are other possibilities. But anything that includes an opening between the two rooms will be a huge budget project. And will remove some of the history and charm of the home.

I'm doing something similar to my 1920s house. Right now the kitchen is way too small and by opening up to the dining room we can add an island and entertain like we want to, plus I'm planning to keep the period details in tact like our stained glass window, part of the chair rail, our beautiful crown molding etc. I like the idea proposed of basically having a beam in between so that you can keep some of the detail but not having the 2 openings which I feel like would seem a bit strange. I'm planning to do something similar. Dont listen to everyone who says you own the wrong home, its going to be lovely and will function in a better way for your family.

But anything that includes an opening between the two rooms will be a huge budget project.

Not necessarily. It all depends on the existing structure and what size beam will be needed to support the upstairs, if any, and span, permit costs, etc. We have removed several walls between rooms over the years that were load bearing and none of them were particularly "huge budget." LVL's are not all that expensive. Obviously, steel would cost more, but still may not be "huge budget" in the grand scheme of things.

'm doing something similar to my 1920s house. Right now the kitchen is way too small and by opening up to the dining room we can add an island and entertain like we want to, plus I'm planning to keep the period details in tact like our stained glass window, part of the chair rail, our beautiful crown molding etc. I like the idea proposed of basically having a beam in between so that you can keep some of the detail but not having the 2 openings which I feel like would seem a bit strange. I'm planning to do something similar. Dont listen to everyone who says you own the wrong home, its going to be lovely and will function in a better way for your family.

I looked for over 2 years for a 1920's house in my area of FL. Every single home had been remuddled by people like yourself who thought they were making it better. Except what happens is those houses remuddled in the 1970's look like they were remuddled in the 70's and look nothing like the charming houses of the 1920's. Those remuddled in the 80's look like the 80's, those in the 90's look like the 90's...You get the picture.

Those of us who love old houses do not want a remuddled house. We want something where ALL the original character of the main rooms (excluding kitchens of course) are intact and rooms haven't been added onto or opened up in such a way that they change the character of the house.

It ranks up there with painting beautiful old fir, mahogany, oak woodwork to make it more updated and brighter and it devalues the house because the house no longer fits with what it is.

The problem is everyone now wants HGTV but the problem is HGTV is selling product and once the next product is hot, then today's product will look like yesterday's has been.

IMO you renovate a house to meet your needs and how you live this is not Victorian times thank god. I think if there is a beam dividing the two spaces it can look great and pay homage to the original. This was our 1905 house we actually put back the molding in the LR /DR to pay respect to the original but my kitchen was no where near the one that was there and we found most people liked how we handled the 2 different styles We also removed the wall between the DR and LR. BTW our house sold in 11 days because we had done the work. Do what you love and forget the imaginary buyer down the road.That wall we removed was the original exterior wall on the original 2 room house

@Patricia Colwell Consulting Thanks so much for the insight. Your remodel is beautiful and has given us some good inspiration.

I couldn’t agree more about remodeling for your needs rather than someone else’s. It’s great to hear from someone who is actually answering my specific question rather than trying to shame us on our choices or tell me to move out of my house.

I’ve never lived in a truly old home with any character to preserve but I feel like you can likely find a balance between some of what is suggested here. The home needs to work for your family. You also want to preserve parts of the character. I wonder if hiring someone to assist you in keeping this balance is the way to go?

@newkitchenny55 Thanks! I appreciate your feedback. Sounds like the beam plan worked well for you!

Not a pro, but I like your second layout (and the one Glo posted). It gives plenty of openness while keeping architectural details and a separation between the two rooms.

We did this when we redid our 1910 character home. We had a house fire and, even tho the house was gutted, I was determined to keep/return as much character as possible. However, I'm also not a 80 year old grandmother living in the early 20th century. We wanted to update the look, marry the character and make it work for the way we actually live today.

I had a very clear idea of the general tone I wanted to create, but didn't know how to achieve it. We hired a very talented designer who helped to develop a plan and implement the details.

We enlarged the doorway between kitchen and dining room to make it open, but not completely so. We had originally planned to case the opening, but once the drywall was up, we could see it should remain without the casing. We enlarged the other entrances on the main floor and also left them without casings for consistency.

I'm looking for a pic, but can't find one at the moment and really can't take one now as Christmas seems to have exploded and I am too bloated with indulgence to clean it up enough to take a decent pic.

Also, wanted to add that we had a big gathering mid-December and I was reminded, yet again, about how well our new layout functions, not just for everyday, but also for those rarer big gatherings. The only thing I do notice for the negative, is that it is louder when you have 30+ semi-inebriated guests talking loudly.

@daisychain Zn3b Happy new year! If you do have a pic to share, I'd love to see it!