Wisc Judge Orders Voter Reg Rolls Purge

elvis

Democrat heads are exploding. This is a cut and paste to avoid an overly long post filled with politically-slanted descriptors. Just the facts, ma'am. Full text at the link.


PORT WASHINGTON - An Ozaukee County judge on Friday ordered the state to remove hundreds of thousands of people from Wisconsin's voter rolls because they may have moved. At issue is a letter the state Elections Commission sent in October to about 234,000 voters who it believes may have moved. The letter asked the voters to update their voter registrations if they had moved or alert election officials if they were still at their same address...


In granting a writ of mandamus — essentially a court order that a government official or agency do its job — he said he was convinced the commission had a clear, positive, plain legal duty to purge the voter rolls within 30 days. "I don't want to see someone deactivated, but I don't write the law," said Malloy, who was appointed to the bench in 2002...and has been re-elected by voters.


He said the commission didn't like the policy so it set a new one without following a formal rule-making procedure that would have included notice to the public and a chance for input. "There's no basis for saying 12 to 24 months is a good time frame. It's not that difficult to do it sooner," he said near the end of a two-hour hearing. "If you don't like (it), you have to go back to the Legislature."


...Elections officials sent the letters based on information compiled by the Electronic Registration Information Center, or ERIC, a coalition of 28 states and Washington, D.C. that tries to keep voter rolls as accurate as possible. ERIC flags voters who file address changes with the post office or register vehicles at new addresses...Voters who are removed from the voter rolls, whether correctly or mistakenly, can regain the ability to cast ballots by re-registering online, at their clerk's office or at the polls on election day.


Of the 234,000 letters that were sent, about 60,000 were returned as undeliverable as of Dec. 5, according to the Elections Commission. As of then, about 2,300 recipients of the letters said they continued to live at their address and about 16,500 had registered to vote at new addresses.


https://www.bing.com/search?q=Wisconsin+voter+rolls+purge&filters=tnTID%3a%224AFF71F6-01EA-45e6-B9E4-D81DA057D3E9%22+tnVersion%3a%223305281%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%222%22+tnOrder%3a%221d694475-7521-44cd-898b-6cb61bd91a76%22&FORM=HPNN01


In other words, so far the responses (and lack thereof) indicate that the ERIC information has merit. Most of these voters are not validly registered to vote, and need to do so. There is plenty of time.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Most of these voters are not validly registered to vote, and need to do so. There is plenty of time."

Yep.

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Stan Areted

This is good news, Elvis.

Thank for the posting the article.

Voting is a sacred privilege as far as I am concerned and should be regarded as such, including required voter identification.


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Carro

It’s astonishing how abused our vote is. Keep cleaning the rolls!.

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patriciae_gw(07)

234,000 people to be removed and 60,000 notifications bounced and 18,800 heard from. Out of 243,000? Are you going to applaud when you are the person purged from the voter roles?

This sort of thing takes time and for some reason no time is being given. Why? there has to be more to this story.

I do not agree about sacred. the word adds that bit of religiosity that has no place in government

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"not validly registered"? I didn't see anything in the OP stating that their registrations were invalid--just that they will become (future tense) invalid if they don't contact election officials before a certain date.

The voting rolls may be cluttered with old, out-dated registrations, but there is nothing "abusive" going on. Any county clerk can tell you, for instance, that when someone dies, usually the last thing on the family's mind is "Mabel, make sure you notify the county clerk to purge Dad's name from the voting rolls."

Kate

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margaux

A few weeks ago I found information on the actual number and nature of voter fraud cases in the past twenty years and posted it here. It was from the right-wing Heritage Foundation, who also did the research. There were very few cases--a few thousand IIRC. What's astonishing is the partisan statements that GOPers will make that have no basis in fact.

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lurker111

Good news, for a change. There is no valid argument against it.

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elvis

President Donald J. Trump’s supporters might be intrigued to learn that Hillary Clinton’s margins of victory in Colorado (136,386) and New Hampshire (2,736) were lower than the numbers of ghost voters in those states. Clinton’s fans should know that Trump won Michigan (10,704) and North Carolina (173,315) by fewer ballots than ghost voters in those states.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/08/election-fraud-registered-voters-outnumber-eligible-voters-462-counties/

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Carro


lurker111

Good news, for a change. There is no valid argument against it.

You might want to consider how TDS has advanced over the past 3 years ;-)



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jerzeegirl (FL zone 9B)(9b)

The guy who allowing the purge is a County Judge. I am sure this will be kicked up to a higher level.

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elvis

Holder tweeted that voter purge in WI targets dems, people of color, and HC supporters. So he is insinuating that these ^^^ groups are more likely to commit voter registration fraud.

Yikes, good thing he's not running for office.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

So he is insinuating that these ^^^ groups are more likely to commit voter registration fraud.

Holder is insinuating nothing of the sort.

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patriciae_gw(07)

he is saying plain English that these people are being targeted. Other states have done the same thing. Since people of color typically live in certain areas it is easy to target them.

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elvis

Now you're talking about gerrymandering, aren't you? How is verifying voter registration disenfranchising dems, people of color, and HC supporters?

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elvis

Still waiting^^^. Bueller? Bueller?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Great...let's start with trump's circle:

Trump's nominee to be the secretary of the Treasury, former Goldman Sachs partner Steven Mnuchin, is registered to vote in both New York and California, according to a review of documents by CNN.

Steve Bannon, a senior adviser to the president and the former executive director of Breitbart News, a media outlet the Southern Poverty Law Centerhas described as "embracing ideas on the extremist fringe of the conservative right," registered to vote in New York before the election last year at the same time as he was registered to vote in Florida. Bannon is still registered to vote in Florida.

And Tiffany Trump, the president's younger daughter with his second wife, Marla Maples, is registered to vote in both Pennsylvania and New York.

Let's kick them off the voter roles and force them to re-register...at least they have the financial resources to do it, right?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Failing to update your voter registration after moving is NOT voter fraud.

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Linda

A lot of times a person moves, then registers at the new location, assuming the old registration will be deleted. I did that, and then found out it wasn't. I would hope that by now, a form would be available which explains that you must give both addresses when registering after a move...maybe send something to the voting offices in both? That just wasn't done back then, but surely it is now? Also, some people have two valid addresses and have to deal with finding out which one they should use for voting purposes. Some areas used to accept a P.O. Box for voting purposes...I'm pretty sure they wouldn't do that now.

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Ann

"Of the 234,000 letters that were sent, about 60,000 were returned as undeliverable as of Dec. 5, according to the Elections Commission. As of then, about 2,300 recipients of the letters said they continued to live at their address and about 16,500 had registered to vote at new addresses."

IMO, this information tells us how much this really is needed. I wish it would happen in every state. I'd be more than happy to reregister if I somehow got removed in error during an effort to make this kind of a clean up. This is important!

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mudhouse

Kate: The voting rolls may be cluttered with old, out-dated registrations, but there is nothing "abusive" going on.

Kate, it's completely impossible for you to know there's nothing abusive going on. People have been prosecuted for the crime of voting by using a dead person's name. It's a known type of voter fraud. What we don't know is how pervasive the problem is; any kind of ongoing fraud is hard to quantify.

Kate: Any county clerk can tell you, for instance, that when someone dies, usually the last thing on the family's mind is "Mabel, make sure you notify the county clerk to purge Dad's name from the voting rolls."

I was the executor for the estate of a family member this year, and it was on my list of responsibilities.

The city website only offered a printable PDF to remove my own name from the voter roles. It had a stern legal warning about misusing the form for any other person, and a signature line wearing that I was the person on the form whose name was being removed, under penalty of perjury. Obviously not the form I needed.

I emailed the county clerk and got a reply a week later, extending condolences for our loss, and giving me a link to the same PDF form.

I replied to the email and explained the problem (perjury; not removing my own name) and never got a reply. (I live in the second largest city in my state, by the way.)

What's the objection to taking periodic steps to fix the problems we all know exist? People do forget, and some county clerks are frankly incompetent when it comes to voter role maintenance.

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margaux

What we don't know is how pervasive the problem is; any kind of ongoing fraud is hard to quantify.

Sigh. You ignored what I told you about the Heritage Foundation's analysis. I didn't want to go through counting the cases again so I found my post from October.

margaux

But millions vote illegally! Three million in California alone in 2016!!!

Actually, here are the numbers, provided by the conservative think tank the Heritage Foundation. I picked them to eliminate "bias". ;)

These numbers go back to around 2000--there may be a few older cases but I didn't check every date.

Duplicate votes--103

Ineligible voters--255

Impersonation fraud at the polls--13

https://www.heritage.org/voterfraud

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margaux

In addition:

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/debunking-voter-fraud-myth

With the facts easy to discover, at this point I'm going to conclude that GOPers support purging voter rolls because they know there is a high likelihood of purging legitimate voters who would vote Democrat.

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queenmargo

You can conclude what ever you want margaux. I will conclude that purging voter fraud is sensible.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I don't know about the "duplicate votes" category, but the "Ineligible voters" category includes a number of people who believed they were eligible and therefore registered to vote. In other words, no deliberate "fraud"--just a mistaken understanding of the voting regs.

Kate

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margaux

Well, now they have thirty days to respond or they'll lose their right to vote. I hope none of those voters is ill or out of the country when the letter arrives.

Why can't they update their voter registrations when they arrive at the polls? Instead they'll be told sorry, you can't vote. We purged you.

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queenmargo

30 days is more than sufficient. All voters who care about a proper voting process should not find this so difficult.

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Stan Areted

queenmargo

30 days is more than sufficient. All voters who care about a proper voting process should not find this so difficult.


Especially if they're not a "Pennsyltucky" deplorable type, right? :)

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queenmargo

LOL Stan, true-true


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elvis

Let's kick them off the voter roles and force them to re-register...

Absolutely.

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elvis

gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Failing to update your voter registration after moving is NOT voter fraud.

Yes, we know. As I posted^^^ 19 hours ago:

elvis

Holder tweeted that voter purge in WI targets dems, people of color, and HC supporters. So he is insinuating that these ^^^ groups are more likely to commit voter registration fraud.

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elvis

margaux

Well, now they have thirty days to respond or they'll lose their right to vote.

No they don't. They simply need to re-register. This can be done at the polls.

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mudhouse

margaux, the top heading on the Heritage Foundation website says this:

The Heritage Foundation’s Election Fraud Database presents a sampling of proven instances of election fraud from across the country. This database is not an exhaustive or comprehensive list, but is intended to demonstrate the many ways in which fraud is committed.

My point (which you missed) is that fraud of any type is almost impossible to accurately quantify, because some of it goes undetected, always.

We agree that voter fraud is a bad thing, right?

My question was, what's wrong with occasionally cleaning up the errors in the voter roles, created by human error, and in some cases, human incompetence?

If people don't care enough to correct their voter registration, how much do they care about voting? There are countries where people risk their lives in order to vote. Being asked to make sure your registration info is accurate should not be characterized as an insurmountable hurdle. And they can even correct the information at the polls, as stated in the OP. They can do it on election day.

Good grief.

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queenmargo

Good grief.

No kidding.

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margaux

Voters who are removed from the voter rolls, whether correctly or mistakenly, can regain the ability to cast ballots by re-registering online, at their clerk's office or at the polls on election day.

I did miss this. Thanks! Do you know if other states have allowed purged voters to re-register at the polls?

If people don't care enough to correct their voter registration, how much do they care about voting?

You are assuming they don't care. The other explanation is they don't know. They may have never received the letter telling them to update their registration.

Yes, I know what the heading says but did you go through their database? It sure looks comprehensive to me. Couple that with the Brennan Center's statistics and we can see that fraud is a very small problem.

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mudhouse

Do you know if other states have allowed purged voters to re-register at the polls?

I wasn't sure about that either, but here's what I found. The Help America Vote Act was passed in 2002 under Bush. It's a federal law and it seems to require that all states give people the option of casting a provisional vote, if they show up to vote and find they're not on the list of registered voters.

It's on page 42 of this PDF of the Help America Vote Act: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ252/pdf/PLAW-107publ252.pdf

It looks to me like the person wanting to vote has to sign a form saying that they are a registered voter, and then they can vote. Their provisional vote gets counted after officials determine that they are in fact qualified to vote.

But, I think allowing people to actually register in place at the poll in election day may vary from state to state, just as voter ID laws vary from state to state.

I found one article saying that people in Idaho can register to vote at the polling place, but I didn't find a comprehensive list.

I think my state does a voter purge every two years or so. (Edited:) (Found out my state now allows registration the same day as an election, new law passed this year. Previous deadline was 28 days.)

***************

Any list of convictions for specific crime reflects exactly that...convictions only. It does not reflect crimes that weren't caught and prosecuted. Same with voter fraud. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't have endless articles on the web arguing about the scope of the problem.

And voter fraud can be a lot more easily missed than some crimes.

I'm sure you know the Brennan Center for Justice has a strong left bias, so that hardly settles the issue as you imply (we can agree to disagree.)

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margaux

Any list of convictions for specific crime reflects exactly that...convictions only. It does not reflect crimes that weren't caught and prosecuted. Same with voter fraud. If that wasn't true, we wouldn't have endless articles on the web arguing about the scope of the problem.

And voter fraud can be a lot more easily missed than some crimes.

I'm sure you know the Brennan Center for Justice has a strong left bias, so that hardly settles the issue as you imply (we can agree to disagree.)

Mudhouse, the unknown cases could amount to five or it could be fifty. It could never be enough to sway an election. Based on what has been caught, I doubt it's thousands of cases, and it's certainly not 3 million like Trump claimed.

I know the Brennan Center is considered left-leaning but I don't know if they've done anything to be untrustworthy except publish things conservatives don't like. It doesn't mean they falsify their research. But that's why I posted about the Heritage Foundations findings originally.

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mudhouse

Very helpful site elvis, I bookmarked it. Thank you!

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Delilah66

"Mabel"

Kate, that name always makes me laugh. No reason. It just does.

"It was from the right-wing Heritage Foundation, who also did the research."

Ah, margaux, it's now known as the wrong-wing Heritage Foundation. You are welcome.

"President Donald J. Trump’s supporters might be intrigued to learn that Hillary Clinton’s margins of victory in Colorado (136,386) and New Hampshire (2,736) were lower than the numbers of ghost voters in those states. Clinton’s fans should know that Trump won Michigan (10,704) and North Carolina (173,315) by fewer ballots than ghost voters in those states."

Why? Which Clinton is running for President?

"They simply need to re-register. This can be done at the polls."

True for fewer than half the states. Only WI, 20 other states and DC allow same day registration.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/same-day-registration.aspx

In 17 states, you can register to vote when you obtain your driver's license at the state DMV.

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elvis

Only WI, 20 other states and DC allow same day registration.

We are forward-thinking here in Wisconsin. In fact, our state motto is "Forward".


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Delilah66

"We are forward-thinking here in Wisconsin"

Interesting. So proud of Badgers!

"In 2018, Wisconsin voters turned out in droves to vote out Republican politicians who have been making Wisconsin less democratic. Over the last decade, Republican Gov. Scott Walker systematically made voting more difficult in Wisconsin by passing a strict voter ID law, restricting early voting hours, making it more difficult to vote with absentee ballots, changes to polling place regulations that inject partisanship into the polling place, and implementing extreme partisan gerrymandering. Wisconsinites had enough and kicked Walker out of the governorship. Nevertheless, the Wisconsin GOP’s gerrymandering was so successful that, even though Democrats won 54% of the vote statewide, they only captured 36 of the 99 seats in the Wisconsin state Assembly.

Because Republican state legislatures remained in power, Wisconsin Democrats were unable to pass strong measures to make voting more free and fair. Democrats introduced a sweeping voting rights bill (SB 159) that included measures to establish automatic voter registration, prevent deceptive election practices, prevent voter suppression and intimidation, and establishes a voter bill of rights. The pro-democracy bill has not advanced due to GOP opposition. Democrats also introduced bills to extend voting to 17 year olds (AB 320, SB 307), but the legislation did not progress.

A bipartisan bill (AB 168) that would improve access for voters with disabilities by creating an exception to requirement that voters state their name and address before receiving a ballot passed through the state Assembly, but did not advance through the state Senate.

With Wisconsin redistricting occurring in 2021 after the 2020 census, we can be sure that the Wisconsin GOP will do everything in their power to gerrymander maps in their favor. Scott Walker, who joined the National Republican Redistricting Trust as finance chair, has made it his mission to keep Wisconsin gerrymandered. This session, Wisconsin Democrats introduced legislation to create independent redistricting commissions (AB 303, SB 288). Independent redistricting commissions should have wide, bipartisan support as they simply promote the drawing of fair maps, but that is not the case. There have been whispers that some Wisconsin Republicans may be open to establishing independent redistricting commissions, but we won’t hold our breath. Wisconsin voters need to do all they can to elect politicians who will put an end to extreme partisan gerrymandering by establishing independent redistricting commissions."

https://www.letamericavote.org/2019-voting-legislation/

ETA: Is the citizenship question in or out of the 2020 census? Asking for a Badger.

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Carro

Because Republican state legislatures remained in power, Wisconsin Democrats were unable to pass strong measures to make voting more free and fair.

What does that even mean? Newspeak, misdirection and plain old bullhockey to elicit emotion and grievances.

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Delilah66

Loved this:

"And voter fraud can be a lot more easily missed than some crimes."

Like the crimes trumpf or Gallagher has committed?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Yes, we know. As I posted^^^ 19 hours ago:

Apparently, my subsequent post and reference to queenmargo's comment about the purging of fraud had to be moved into some top secret server for national security reasons.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Well, for example, free and fair voting would yield a legislature that better represents the voters choices, no?


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elvis

@gf: I feel so special when that happens to me, don't you?

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elvis

ad, what is your chart supposed to demonstrate?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Gerrymandering Elvis. Your guess on what I meant a couple of days ago. I was talking red lining but this is a problem as well. You can construct districts that disperse the power of voters. So you can have more voters vote Democratic but Republicans can win anyway.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

No. I cannot imagine why you would think it should, elvis. It does form some of my opinions of the pettiness of people that cannot cope with being wrong, even in extremely inconsequential matters. But then, it appears we ceased to share many like thoughts or opinions quite a while back.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Sorry I should've labeled the chart....it's the votes and the results of the Wisc 2018 election with all 99 seats up for grabs. The makeup of the legislature does not reflect the popular vote.

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elvis

"Popular vote"? Electoral College only applies to presidential elections.

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elvis

Resurrecting this thread for further discussion. Kate started a duplicate thread, and it would be a shame to waste this good information.

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Stan Areted

Looks like nothing has changed, hot topics must be hard to come by!

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elvis

Yes, I wonder how many more have been answered or undeliverable by now. As of 5 December:

Of the 234,000 letters that were sent, about 60,000 were returned as undeliverable

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Stan Areted

That's proof that clean up of voter rolls is imperative.


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catkinZ8a


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mudhouse

Wow, what a legal battle. Since the conservative group (Wisconsin Institute for Law and Liberty) asked the Wisconsin Supreme Court to take the appeal of the ruling, back on December 20, I wonder how long it will take the state Supreme Court to respond?

Also interesting that one of the state supreme court justices (Daniel Kelly) announced last week he'll recuse himself from the case, if it does go to the high court.

This article says he didn't explain why, but goes on to imply it's because Kelly will face his first election in the spring, and Kelly might otherwise end up helping to decide if the voters in question stayed on the roles for his own election.

https://kvia.com/news/us-world/2019/12/23/wisconsin-justice-drops-out-of-voter-purge-case/

The Wisconsin supreme court will still have a conservative majority (4-2) even with Kelly recusing.

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elvis

If people don't care enough to correct their voter registration, how much do they care about voting? There are countries where people risk their lives in order to vote. Being asked to make sure your registration info is accurate should not be characterized as an insurmountable hurdle.

^^^This sums it up. Thanks again, Mud.

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haydayhayday

Margaux:

"A few weeks ago I found information on the actual number and nature of voter fraud cases in the past twenty years and posted it here. It was from the right-wing Heritage Foundation, who also did the research. There were very few cases--a few thousand IIRC. What's astonishing is the partisan statements that GOPers will make that have no basis in fact."

I'm always a little perplexed by those kinds of "studies".

How can they possibly know? They can only know about the ones that they catch, right?

Case in point:

From a well trusted eyewitness. You can take it as fact.

Years ago....

On voting day, somehow the uncle gets a blank voting form. Buys a lot of pint bottles of liquor and drives around. Picks up voter number one. Gives him the filled in blank voting form, (Democratic all down the line in this particular case.), and sends him in to "vote".

The first voter then comes back with a fresh new blank voting form, collects his pint and the uncle heads down the road to pick up the next "voter".

Never went to jail. Never got caught.

Who's going to arrest him, anyhow? The newly elected sheriff? Funny.

Hay



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elvis

How many drunk drivers tonight won't get caught?

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mudhouse

How can they possibly know? They can only know about the ones that they catch, right?

Exactly, Hay.

The fact is voter fraud does exist; the only unknown is how many fraudulent votes are cast.

Since that's pretty much always going to be an unknown, there's no reason not to develop a routine method of purging voter roles in a consistent periodic manner. The more consistent it is, the less voters will be caught off guard, and the more they'll learn to check that their registration information is current and correct. (In my state, it only takes a minute to check online.)

And in states that even allow registration at the voting place, like Wisconsin, there's no risk that a voter would be blocked from voting.

Starting in 2021, my state will allow that too; voters can provide ID at the poll, and they'll be given a provisional ballot, to be verified before that vote is added to the final count.

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mudhouse

(Bumping your thread with an update, Elvis; please correct anything that isn't right...)

Update on the Wisconsin battle over purging voters. Recap: In October, the election commission sent a letter to voters they believed might have moved, so voters could update or confirm. The 3 Democrats on the elections commission want to wait until after the 2020 election to purge the inactive names, and 3 Republicans on the commission want to purge the inactive names now. In Wisconsin, voters can correct registrations or register to vote at the polling place.

A lawsuit was filed against the commission, with the intent of forcing the commission to remove outdated addresses from the polls. A judge ruled the commission had to remove the names believed to no longer be current, but the election commission refused.

https://wkow.com/2020/01/13/state-elections-commission-held-in-contempt-of-court-for-not-purging-voter-roles/

The Wisconsin supreme court has now voted not to take the case, so the legal battle will shift to a lower state court.

And today, the Ozaukee County judge held the Wisconsin Elections Commission in
contempt of court, for not immediately removing the names in question from
the state's voter rolls.

"I can not be any clearer on this," the judge said. "They need to follow my order."

The Wisconsin state justice dept asked the judge to put his order of contempt on hold, pending an appeal of his ruling, but the judge refused. He's holding the elections commission itself in contempt, and the three Dem members who've voted against moving ahead with the purge. They'll each face a $250 fine for every day they don't comply with the purge, and the commission will be fined $50 per day.

Trump is scheduled to hold a rally in Milwaukee, Wisconsin tomorrow, hours after the commission is scheduled to meet to discuss the matter.

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elvis

Gosh, thanks for the update, Mud. I had not seen this yet, was too busy making sure I hadn't missed the primary for the special election to replace Sean Duffy. I did not miss it! Whew.

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catkinZ8a

POTUS and FLOTUS entering the CFP title game as they're greeted with cheers and chants of USA! USA!

https://streamable.com/itcgp

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