HI Moses

I grow or have grown all of these in my zone 5 yard, and in my experience the following haven't been hardy for me in a typical zone 5 spot: South Africa, Summer Sun, and Wedding Bells. The latter is gorgeous enough I'm trying it in a protected zone 6 spot, but it's not among the hardier Kordes roses. Eliza, Fiji and Ruby Ice have all survived at least one winter in a typical zone 5 spot but they don't recover well from being pruned to the ground and at least some of them don't look like they've come back fully a second or third year. Sunny Sky is plenty hardy but rarely blooms. Larissa isn't in a great spot so I can't say it's not robust, but mine rarely gets above about a foot (to be fair it's shaded by some other perennials, but still - a foot?)

On the flip side, I love love love Garden Delight - a top 20 and perhaps top 10 of the roses I grow. Tip hardy, blooms all summer, at least 4' tall, covered in blooms of every "hot" color in the rainbow, and striking. Poseidon is another definite keeper and among the best of the lavender roses. Also mostly tip hardy at 4-5' even in a lousy spot and the blooms stay lavender without pinking out at all. Caramella I quite like and it's similarly cane hardy though much floppier canes than the other two, also 4-5' if it would stand upright. I have to support its canes with fencing around the bush. It can have lovely apricot-buff color in cooler weather but can be a basic cream color in truly hot weather. Not as robust a rebloomer but a keeper for me.

Bliss is surprisingly also a tall rose for me even though it says only 3' or so in my records. Mine is a blush pink and around 4' tall, and it blooms off and on in the summer in part sun. I think it'll bloom more with another year of age behind it and it's totally clean as Kordes roses tend to be. Roxy has been more of a 2.5-3' rose but quite impressive a rebloom though the individual flowers are much smaller and less of a statement individually. Orchid Romance has only been in a year or two so I can't really tell about rebloom yet, but the winter survival was pretty good and color nice though more pink than Poseidon. Cinderella is fine but not all that impressive, and at 7 or so years old I think it's as good as it gets. Reasonable sun and conditions, and it has surviving cane most years and regrows quickly from the base, but the rebloom isn't great. The blush pink is so pale it doesn't stand out for me much in the garden and the blooms don't have enough form to be notable otherwise. It's probably the tallest of these you list for me however and the only one likely to climb.

All of these are BS resistant for me though in PA you may get different strains than I do around here. My summary of recommendations would be Garden Delight, Poseidon, Caramella, and Bliss for taller roses, and Roxy for smaller ones. I was very impressed with Ruby Ice for several years before it started to grow backward for me, so it'd be another to include for your consideration, as would Fiji and probably Orchid Romance.

Cynthia

Cynthia,

What can I say? You have gone 110% above my highest expectation of me receiving advice....and straight from a veteran expert! Thank you for the detailed and lengthy rundowns you provided.

You can imagine my current apprehension at the consequences of the winter management changes I have made.....visions of death and destruction everywhere come to mind! I expect the Drift Roses, Earth Angel, Quietnesses, Milwaukee's Calatravas, Lady Ashe, Quicksilver, and Pink Climbing Don Juan to come through intact; maybe the Chantal Merieuxs, Moonlight Romantica, Boleros, and Princess Charlene de Monaco, but the 20 or so other varieties....I wince at expecting them to be either dead or on their way there, in due time.

Your advice as well as that of the other 'Pillars of the Roses Forum,' members who gave their valuable input, has caused me to think more positively.

Since you mentioned that Garden Delight is one of your top 10-20 roses, which ones are your top 20 roses?

Moses

Sorry for being slow on the draw, Cynthia. Please give me a couple more days to study your above post, and make my questionables list for you to comment upon. Can you possibly really known how grateful I am for your help! The knowledge you possess is priceless!

Moses

Info from my PNW garden

Bliss...must grow in some shade or will bleach right out, short and fat

Caramella...gets bad BS even on the canes, but beautiful colours

Cinderella...ok if you don't get any rain but if you do, check out carefully, big and tall

Eliza...worth growing

Fiji...unusual colour no problems

Garden Delight...another for the shade or bleaches

Larissa... a favourite with no problems, short and wide

Roxy...if you have seen one then you have seen a 100. nothing unusual, short

South Africa...rich amber, worth growing, tall

Summer Sun...another one that has a more beautiful colour in some shade, medium wide

Sunny Sky...soft yellow no problems, tall and lean

Cinderella

Cinderella after a couple of rainy days

Oldrosarian,

Thanks for your valuable input. Cinderella goes to the bottom of the list. My annual rainfall is essentially the same, month after month, with plenty of heavy downpours all summer long.

Knowing now that South Africa and Sunny Sky are tall and thin is good news. My one and only rose bed is 18' long and 8' wide, 3-4 bushes deep, with a front. It's not an island bed. The classic ugly hybrid tea bush, bedding rose bush form, tall and top flowering, is ideal for my situation.

I therefore stagger my heights, tall in the back, short at the front.

Bliss may be a poor choices for me going by its washing out in the sun. I shovel pruned Pink Enchantment for its blooms turning ugly, dirty cream upon being open a couple days, instead of staying a soothing light pink.

Thanks again. I feel better about my no-winterization agenda, thanks to you. You may remember my stand on winterization in the past. Now I am with you on this point. Makes sense now.

Moses

Hello Cynthia,

You gave me a big chunk of homework! And very grateful I am for it. (to be continued, ASAP)

Moses, Western PA., zone 5/6, USA

Oldrosarian,

I feel better about my no-winterization agenda, thanks to you. You may remember my stand on winterization in the past. Now I am with you on this point. Makes sense now.

What is oldrosarian’s view on winterization?

Moses: are you not winterizing this year because you are unable to (physical/financial/time)? Or have you decided outcomes will be better without winterization? Or are you experimenting, solely out of curiosity?

Rifis,

Not exactly physically unable to winterize anymore, I have a slowly progressing form of muscular dystrophy, which slows me down considerably though.

I also no longer can drive, so getting in garden supplies is not as easy as it was.

Not winterizing is more of an attempt to take advantage of the recent proliferation of winter hardy roses with more formal, exhibition type flowers. Knock Outs can now take a back seat to roses like: Dee-Lish, Wedding Bells, Karl Ploberger, Earth Angel, and my favorite rose, Quietness. Even Elina is proving to be tip hardy.

It also seems that many of the ADR winners do extremely well for me, even concerning black spot resistance and even still practically black spot proofness.

The only enemy left that is still a major issue for me is the dreaded Midge Fly maggot. I still have to regularly tip spray the vulnerable new growths until the green forming flower buds are chick pea size.

Why not make rose growing easier if possible?

I am being realistic in expecting some, hopefully not too many dead or declining bushes, so I am preparing for the worst, but hoping for unexpected survivors that also thrive.

Moses

Hello Cynthia,

I've studied all of your top 20, and really like Cherry Parfait, and Dames de Chenonceau. They're now on my replacement list. You have quite an impressive assemblage of roses, from a wide variety of sources. Shows a lot of ingenuity and deep research. They must be magnificent in spring.

These older bushes are the ones I have always protected that I believe will be trouble. They are:

Julia Child (3 bushes)

Pretty Lady Rose (2)

Purple Prince

Sweet Fragrance (2)

Pope John Paul II (2)

Bolero (3)

Miranda Lambert

Apricot Candy

Dame de Coeur

Sister Emmanuelle

Chantal Merieux (3)

I also have very young bushes of Moonlight Romantica and Princess Charlene of Monaco that are questionable.

What do you think about all the above roses' survival prospects?

Thanks for your great, knowledgeable help.

Moses

Thank you for explaining, Moses. I had been wondering since you first posted about no winterizing this year.

I mentioned recently on another discussion that I always pay close attention to seil’s advice. I do the same with what you have to say.

In fact, just last week I bought a bag of larger pine bark “nuggets” for winterizing 2 Barkarole HTs that I have been babying (with borderline success) the past 2 winters with pine straw. Hoping to avoid “canker”, I decided to try your method this winter.

I had wondered if you had a change of heart. I do know that mad gallica is not a fan of ancillary winter measures.

I make the effort with Barkarole, even though it’s pretty tender here, because it was my father’s favorite rose.

Rifis,

I can certainly understand you babying Barcarole, a very special rose to you. I found large chunks of pine bark least likely to develop wetness which decreases canker risk. I don't know how Palatine roses in their instructional video on winter protection successfully saves canes from cankering with just regular soil piled up over the bush. Under that protection my rose canes would all be black by March.

Moses

Hi Moses

Excellent reasons for minimizing winter protection, since the point of having a hobby we enjoy is to, well, enjoy it. I still do some protection of laying filled leaf bags around the edge borders of my beds, as much as anything to keep the couple of inches of leaf mulch from blowing away over the winter. Like rifls, only the special roses get any special treatment of leaf bags stacked among them with some extra oak leaves dumped among them. For me oak leaves work well not to hold in moisture, but I'm in a dry climate so don't listen to me for the east coast. At least my winter protection methods are money free, if not exactly labor free. They do simplify my mulch all summer long, using free leftover bags of leaves.

Now for my two cents on the roses you're no longer protecting:

Will laugh off the cold, can't believe you ever protected it:

Sweet Fragrance. Mine is mostly cane hardy in my zone 4 pocket, will have no trouble with zone 6

Hardy with at least some surviving cane for me in zone 5:

Pretty Lady Rose,

Bolero - loses most of its cane and not the fastest to grow back, but has survived several years

Sister Emmanuelle - this one is probably also zone 4 hardy, since it gets big and has mostly surviving cane in a non-optimal spot.

Has survived at least one winter in my zone 6 pocket:

Chantal Merieux - I don't think this one would have a problem with zone 6 winters, and it'll probably have some surviving cane for you

Miranda Lambert - probably a zone 6-7 rose but has survived OK for me, but is cut to the ground after winter

Iffy at best in my virtual zone 6 but should be root hardy in a sunny south side of zone 6:

Julia Child - I had a plant limp through a few winters in zone 5 spot but never more than a foot tall at the end of the season. I've replaced it in my zone 6 pocket with higher hopes

Pope John Paul II - ditto to everything for Julia Child, except he limped through at a foot tall in my virtual zone 6

(probably) Dame de Coeur - didn't overwinter in a typical zone 5 spot but it was robust enough to be optimistic for root survival in zone 6. I haven't liked it enough to want to try it again. Kentucky Derby is a much better HT in that color range, and even Black Magic survives better with much nicer dark red color

I have never been able to overwinter even in virtual zone 6 and maximal protection:
Purple Prince

Apricot Candy

Princess Charlene of Monaco (but mine might have been a poor plant to start with)

Not sure yet (mine is just facing its first winter):

Moonlight Romantica. In general I find the Romanticas to be relatively tender and need my virtual zone 6, with some of them like Liv Tyler absolutely refusing to overwinter, and most of them regrowing slowly if they survive. If yours isn't a strong plant going into winter, put it on the hospice watch too.

So my entirely biased opinion is that all the roses you list have a good to excellent prognosis without protection in zone 6 except for Purple Prince, Apricot Candy, PCoM and maybe Moonlight Romantica. For the 20 or so roses you list, that isn't many to have on hospice watch. I replace a good third of my roses every year, including some that have survived several winters, so you're beating my odds. I wouldn't consider any of your roses doomed, and don't give up on them until June rolls around as the ones that are marginal survivors can take until June to come back from being pruned to the ground.

I find that repeated winter kills have worn down many of my grafted roses in particular over about 8-10 years, so even some that have survived fine in other years might inexplicably not come back the next year. In my estimation, protection doesn't save them when they've lost access to any more growing points to resprout basal canes after losing them in the winter. Some grafted roses will be here forever though - my Quadra is grafted and nothing short of nuclear holocaust is liable to stop him from coming back after winter.

So it is what it is, but I wouldn't be gloomy over the winter. I predict you'll lose just enough roses to give you an opportunity to plant the new ones you want to try. Gotta see things in a positive light...

Cynthia