Bill proposed by NY state senator would ban medically unnecessary surg

arcy_gw

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/08/health/ny-bill-bans-intersex-surgery-children/index.html

To do "MEDICALLY UNNECESSARY" surgery on a child, to mess with hormones, permanently impact their NATURAL development is to do HARM. How is this not in direct juxtaposition to the insane mom who is transitioning her young child? I had three children. On any given day I had a cat or a horse or a unicorn running around my yard. NEVER did I consider a horn, whisker or hoof implants. Children are GROWING they are CHANGING. NO ONE knows what the child will FEEEEELLLL like tomorrow. This young boy dressed in pig tails and a skirt going to school, the school FORCING the rest of the children to play nice and pretend it's just an ordinary day is asking an entire population to enter into this mom's delusion. THAT'S INSANE. If the teacher in that classroom reads to the children the age old story "The Emperor's New Clothes" the gig will be up. Society should be ashamed of itself that we have gotten this far into this insanity. The poor child will be irreparably harmed while a group of mentally unstable people feel vindicated. That is not ok on any level.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

I'm not clear what point you are making, arcy. The bill is concerned with stopping surgery on intersex children at a young age. A practice which is very detrimental to the child. It isn't related to gender reassignment surgery on minors in cases of gender dysphoria, an entirely different issue. So I don't see that it is relevant to the case of the woman transitioning her child.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Wow, I support this legislation. This is good news that is in keeping with the latest scientific knowledge.

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bob_cville

Floral there you go again bringing facts into the argument to derail someone's ranting tirade.

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blfenton

You're mixing two quite different situations. However, if one of your kids wanted to go to school one day dressed as a cat, what would you have said?

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margaux

It sounds like she supports the legislation but who can be sure?

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JodiK

I sense a grand misunderstanding of what the information in the OP actually says, by the very poster who posted it.

I think this is the part they didn't get to in their reading:

""Intersex" is a term used for a variety of conditions in which a person
is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy and/or chromosome pattern
that does not seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male.
Many babies born intersex undergo surgery within the first few months of
life to bring their bodies in line with a commonly accepted female or
male appearance...
"

And if they did, perhaps they don't understand what it means...

~~~

Prior to any highlighting of this as an actual issue, an infant born intersex was quite often physically mutilated to appease the parents, and sometimes even the doctors. Imagine the sort of life they might lead, then. Again, suicide and thoughts thereof are high within this sector of our population. Why did it never occur to anyone to wait, and ask the person in question how they would like to proceed? After all, it is their body... their life.

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Olychick

I guess the same could be said of circumcision? (I support the idea behind the legislation, for sure).

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“Why did it never occur to anyone to wait, and ask the person in question how they would like to proceed?”

Because the goal was conformity. Everyone was expected to fit into a certain mould and in large part was ostracized if they didn’t.

Now we see a lessening of the drive for conformity, I think. We better understand that our kids are smart enough to be taught that not everyone looks like them.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Olychick my first thought was of circumcision too.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Actually, here is a first hand account of an intersexed person who was assigned a gender at a very young age by their parents and what their life was like:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dana

In Dana's case, and as is often the case with babies that are born this way, parents don't really know what to do and the doctor will basically say, "Well, you got to pick one." And they picked male.

DANA ZZYYM: I don't know exactly who made that decision. I think it was my father who said, "You're not gonna cut that off....

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bleusblue2

Jodik

Why did it never occur to anyone to wait, and ask the person in question how they would like to proceed? After all, it is their body... their life.

~~~~

Yes, the goal was conformity but really, there was no awareness whatsoever about the condition. There was no belief that anyone could be other than male or female in our culture or in most cultures. We know that some native peoples did have recognition of variations, they had a place in society for people who were gay, for instance. Still, as far as I understand, they were "other." We are advancing when we understand how fluid the definitions should be.

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elvis

However, if one of your kids wanted to go to school one day dressed as a cat, what would you have said?

No.

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BetsyJ

The measure, which would require that a patient issue informed consent prior to any procedure, will "protect intersex children from medical intervention and allow them to make these decisions for themselves when they are prepared to do so"

This is in response to the theories of Dr. John Money, when intersex infants were "assigned" a sex, and in many cases inappropriate sex reassignment surgeries were performed.

An infant cannot give consent.

Money was a professor of pediatrics and medical psychology at Johns Hopkins University from 1951 until his death. He also established the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic in 1965 along with Claude Migeon who was the head of pediatric endocrinology at Johns Hopkins. The hospital began performing sexual reassignment surgery in 1966. At Johns Hopkins, Money was also involved with the Sexual Behaviors Unit, which ran studies on sex-reassignment surgery

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foodonastump

As much as it kills me, I’m gong to have to partly come to arcy’s defense here. She did not misinterpret the bill as many of you seem to think, she noted the “juxtaposition.” But that’s where the defense ends because she juxtaposed it with a Texas mom “transitioning her child.” And that’s not what the mom was trying to do, in a physical sense.

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JodiK

Bleusblue2, my question was more rhetorical than anything... conformity has always been a thorn in the side of our society. Don't step out of line... don't rock the boat... don't say anything or make any waves... do as they say... even if it violates your Constitutional rights.

By who's decree, I ask rhetorically, are we not allowed to color outside of the lines? We are afforded certain rights and freedoms within this nation, and yet... we've been conditioned, even educated, to ignore that and simply follow the edicts of so-called authority.

Where would we be today without persons who did jump that proverbial fence and strike out on their own, introducing ideas that, while truth, turned much of society upside down until those ideas were finally accepted, with proof... Galileo, Darwin, etc... thought of as heretics during their time.

Even now, there are still those who refuse to believe what science has proven to be true. Is it fear of the new and/or different that paralyzes them? Is it blind belief in something other? What keeps people locked inside a box, where new ideas are prohibited, thought of as sacrilege... ideas that can't possibly exist or be true?

Gender has always been a spectrum... it's not a new idea by any stretch of the imagination.

I simply think that the poster of the OP has not studied the subject matter to any great extent... and therefore, may not grasp the many variables and nuances therein. It's not an either/or issue. There's a lot more to it all than one might at first think...

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ubro(2a)

On any given day I had a cat or a horse or a unicorn running around my yard. NEVER did I consider a horn, whisker or hoof implants.

It is comments like this that show a severe lack of understanding on what these children and their parents are going thru. To draw the comparison of gender identity and animals is both insensitive and at the same time a simplification of the problems.

This young boy dressed in pig tails and a skirt going to school, the school FORCING the rest of the children to play nice and pretend it's just an ordinary day is asking an entire population to enter into this mom's delusion. THAT'S INSANE.

Gee, how will our children survive forced to be kind and learning to play nice with other's who are different than they are? Goodness what would you rather have them do, shun the child, or is that not enough punishment for a child who is different?

I for one, will always teach my children and grandchildren to be inclusive and to be kind. Voicing their displeasure at another persons gender life choices for no other purpose than to speak their mind but hurting another is, IMO, incredibly selfish.

Children are GROWING they are CHANGING. NO ONE knows what the child will FEEEEELLLL like tomorrow.

No we don't, and we have no idea what types of conversations a mother or father has with a child like this, at home when they are alone. We have no idea if they have a close bond where the child can say what they wish, we have no idea how caring the parents are or what the child feels, so posting outrage at a parent without knowing what goes on behind closed doors is offering an opinion without all the facts.

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BetsyJ

FORCING the rest of the children to play nice and pretend it's just an ordinary day is asking an entire population to enter into this mom's delusion.

But this is what WEPs do all the time, try to force the entire US to enter into their delusions.

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jama7(6)

When you don't teach or can't teach your children to play nicely? You get a little Donnie Trump.


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BetsyJ

Donald Trump’s mother once reportedly asked his first wife “what sort of son have I created”.

Ms Trump despaired of her son’s antics during the late 1980s when the ups and downs of his divorce from his first wife, Ivana Trump, meant her family were thrown into the spotlight when she was in her eighties.

Mr Trump is known for his frequent references to his father and the role he played in his life but is more reluctant to talk about his mother.

... a solid relationship with an attentive mother builds up “the capacity to trust, a sense of security versus insecurity [and] knowing what’s real and what’s not real”.

“Your mother helps you identify your feelings and develop a cognitive structure so you don’t have to act on them immediately. And I think it’s fair to say that the capacity for empathy develops through your maternal relationship.”

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

BetsyJ can you explain what WEP means?

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patriciae_gw(07)

I am really of two minds about this, on one hand it is good that infants and small children do not have some societal notion of gender forced on them, on the other hand doctors and patients don't want to have their options decided for them by laws that will quickly outdate and while treatment for many of these situations evolve and expand. Waiting is not always the best choice especially when you consider hormones and what they can permanently do to the body as is the case with Transsexuals. I can see both sides but all in all we need to stop being so uptight about gender. That would take the pressure off everyone.

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ubro(2a)

Waiting is hard, but what happens if you do a gender assignment on the baby and then their hormones identify them later as the opposite sex? Do we as parents have that right, I am not so sure. I am of the opinion we do not own our children.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

I cannot (I think) post more excerpts from the transcript of the Radiolab episode I linked because there are explicitly sexual words involved, but I do urge folks to listen to or read this one story that illustrates the pain - both emotional and physical - that was endured by one intersexed person subjected to surgical 'correction'.

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BetsyJ

WEP = White Evangelical Protestant

80% of WEPs voted for Trump in 2016

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

When gender assignment surgery at birth was the SOP for intersex babies, the prevailing school of thought was that sex is completely dependent on exterior anatomy and nurture/upbringing. So give a baby male genitalia, raise him to be a boy, and no one will be any the wiser.

Now we know that sex is influenced by several systems working together. Changing one (external anatomy) does not remove the influence of the others. And upbringing can never overcome the influence of hormones that washed the brain in utero or that continue to be produced by internal systems.

We often hear “first do no harm” in reference to abortion. This is a clear-cut case of the need to “first do no harm” on a living being. In my opinion.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I know a little about this. My mother's god child had a baby in this situation. The law as it is described here as "no medical unnecessary surgery. I agree" The infant can be born with both organs but they are not both functional. Even not being a doctor I think we all know what how those organs function. My mother's god child decision was done through medical determination. It was not as simple of if you want a boy close this hole or if you want a girl we cut this piece of flesh off.

In her case there was no wait until the child grows up and make the decision. Make the child wait when the basic function of urinating is confused would be death.

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patriciae_gw(07)

That is where medical necessity comes into play. If there is no way to eliminate waste surgery is necessary.

To clarify my thinking I would want people to wait (unless surgery is unavoidable) for a time. Typically you will get feed back from the child before you have to do something, before hormones come into play, but each case is different and that is where laws can be problematic especially in view of the evolving understanding of what creates gender in the first place and our abilities medically.

I have notices our more opinionated members who claim there is only male and female are missing on this post. I always bring up these children when they say that.

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