Why are Republicans so afraid of Socialism?

THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Socialism is an economic system.


Democracy is a political system.


You can have both.




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woodnymph2_gw

A thousand likes.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Yeah, how about that? Apparently we were inoculated against common sense in infancy.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Repubs. are afraid of socialism because they needed a bogeyman to keep their voters in line and "loyal" --so they did that by "demonizing" socialism and repeating "it's coming to get you" dum-de-dum "it's coming to get you"! Boo!

As usual, Repubs. made up their own definition of what socialism is, but everyone else is using the accepted dictionary definition. As a result, when Repubs. and Dems. try to talk to each other about "socialism," they end up talking at cross-purposes--because they are using different definitions of the word.

Kate

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Free College education would strike fear in (what passes for) the hearts of Student Loan Lobbyists.

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Wants to Grow

Socialism AND Democratic Socialism takes away individual liberties in favor of the collective. You think there is income equality now? Just look at the income inequalities of income under those in power with Socialism.

Also, Socialism always ends up as Communism, where the government makes all your decisions, and everyone serves the government. BTW, more people have died under Communistic dictators than any other ideology.

Free market Capitalism has lifted more people from poverty than any other ideology.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Also, Socialism always ends up as Communism

Reference?


**************


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Carro

Perhaps Democrats are too uninformed to know that America has socialism policies. I mean, DUH. We think that government should not own and regulate everything.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Does the government own everything in Sweden?

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Carro

Tell us, Swede, how much doe you pay in taxes?

What's that you say? Over 60%???


Wow, thanks, but no thanks Swede Resistance Meme Lady.

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katrina_ellen

Those in favor of Big Government seem to falsely believe that a nanny government would always do what is best for the people. The shift of economic power in the hands of the government vs the people leaves us vulnerable to the whims of a powerful authority in which we have no recourse. My choice is liberty, not tyranny.

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Carro

Tell us, Swede Lady of Resistance, how many children with Down's Syndrome are being born in your country? No wonder you look so perfect and Arian!

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Swedish taxes cover health care, education, pensions, etc.

Add in US costs for those and the Swedes pay less.

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Carro

Tell us, Swedish Aryan Lady, how good of a job is your government doing raising your children, as you are expected to be a working mother and have the workers raise your kids for you? Gotta pay those taxes and yano, staying at home isn't going to feed the welfare state.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Swedish government says that parents of both sexes are entitled to 480 days (16 months) of paid parental leave at about 80% of their salary (with a cap), plus bonus days for twins.

“We don’t mind paying high taxes as we and our children benefit,” one Stockholm parent
told researchers a few years ago, expressing the prevailing sentiment.
“We would not want to live a country where taxes may be lower but the
benefits are less and you don’t get to spend time with your children
when they are young.”


What do parents get in the US?

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vedabeeps

Tell us, Swede, how much doe you pay in taxes?

What's that you say? Over 60%???



The range is 29-60%.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Carro: "Perhaps Democrats are too uninformed to know that America has socialism [SIC] policies."

Still waiting to hear about those 'socialism' policies.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Carro: "No wonder you look so perfect and Arian!"

Also, I'm not sure about what an 'Arian' looks like.



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Chi

It's a marginal tax rate - only 15% of Swedes pay the highest rate. The average Swede pays less than 27% in taxes, AND they get free healthcare and education.

There is also no property tax.

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vedabeeps

Also, some taxes are elective such as the church tax. Two of my good friends have married Swedish men and lived there (one still does, one returned due to aging parents.) None are members of a church so they do not pay a church tax since they do not attend and therefore did not get married in a church (but did marry in Sweden,) and do not plan to be buried by the church. If you are members of a church you check the box to pay it and indicate your religion so it is paid to the proper fund by the state.


I don’t remember which other taxes are elective, it’s been several years since they told me about it but I really liked the idea of having some taxes be optional.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

GOP & its flacks have been whipping up fear of boogeyman socialists and communism for generations now.

And it is interesting how the boogeyman threat of high taxes seems always to overlook the offset of savings in other areas.

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Chi

Because the rich Republicans love that they barely pay anything in taxes. They work hard to try to convince the rest of us that everyone paying their fair share is BAD and SOCIALIST even though there are many examples of happy, healthy people who actually pay less than we do in the US for many, many more benefits.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Thor, Consider the following to be examples of democratic societies becoming communist:

Cambodia

China

Cuba

Laos

North Korea

Venezuela

It is false to call any of the European countries socialists. They are capitalist countries with very expensive welfare programs that are destroying their economies.

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chase_gw

What utter nonsense.


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Chi

It is false to call any of the European countries socialists. They are capitalist countries with very expensive welfare programs that are destroying their economies.

That's funny, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, the UK and Denmark are ALL in the top 10 rankings of Global Competitiveness Index 2019, compiled by the World Economic Forum. So 60% of the top 10 competitive economies are European countries.

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlobalCompetitivenessReport2019.pdf

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chase_gw

Medicare for some is OK...Medicare for all is socialistic. Go figure.

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Joaniepoanie

Katrina


The shift of economic power in the hands of the government vs the people leaves us vulnerable to the whims of a powerful authority in which we have no recourse. My choice is liberty, not tyranny.

********

Thankfully we do have recourse against tyrants—-which is precisely why Trump is being impeached!

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chase_gw

They fear what they don't understand. I don't expect Republicans to embrace certain social safety net concepts, quite frankly I don't even care. I am just galled at the misconceptions, blatant untruths and plain BS so many use to explain their dislike. The ignorance, as in lacking information, is remarkable but they refuse to listen to facts.

Reject it of you want, who care, but reject it based on facts not lies and anecdotal information.....one's best friend' s brother in law's, second cousin, twice removed experience doesn't count.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Vedabeeps: Also, some taxes are elective such as the church tax.

I know a few Scandinavians who are not religious but who choose to pay a church tax (it was around 1%) because they thought it was important to support church buildings and grounds from a cultural standpoint.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Consider the following to be examples of democratic societies becoming communist:

Cuba and China were such thriving democracies before communism -- NOT!

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batyabeth

DS1 lives in Sweden and has stated he couldn't come back to the states because he wouldn't be able to afford all of the benefits he gets as a tax-paying Swedish citizen. He says the taxes are higher than in the States, but the free health care, family leave, great education etc for his kids is more than enough to offset any regret over paying his taxes.

Chase is right - the boogyman of socialism has worked for decades, but the reality (which many rabid antis would like to ignore) is what it is. Fact - these citizens of Sweden and other similar countries with similar policies are happier, healthier and their.i children get great education. They have time with their families, time with each other and a lack of pressure many USians would weep to have. No one is raising my grandson except his parents, but he has a fabulous, safe and cheerful FREE preschool staffed by well-paid, well-trained and generous men and women.

It's just not that hard, people. All this frothing at the mouth over "government control" and "tyranny" is like my neighbor who smugly told me,"Obama's gonna kill you mama" or posters screeching about "arians" ( oh my, really?). Ridiculous imaginings and hysteria aobut something that's just not that threatening, and might benefit a lot of people. Some people just can't imagine having equal access to health care, for instance, and it outrages them into a frenzy of ludicrous accusations and completely bogus scenarios.

I raised my sons to believe that people who share get more. Just ask the Swedes.

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Lars(Z11a, Sunset 24)

The U.S. government is not a democracy - it is a republic, in which elected representatives make the laws. There are very few instances in which the people get to vote directly on what becomes law (democracy). One case is the propositions on the ballots in California, and some of those (like Prop 13 and Prop 8) can have disastrous effects and demonstrate the problem of the tyranny of the majority.

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floodwaters

Which state in the US does the economy of Sweden compare to? Does anyone think the US would be be where its is today if it had been socialist for the past 200 years? Where would the worlds economy be if the US had been a socialist country?

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Chi

"Does anyone think the US would be be where its is today if it had been socialist for the past 200 years?"

What do you mean by "socialist" and how does it relate to Democratic candidate platforms? What would make the US "socialist"?

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Chi

Someone should go to a Trump rally and ask people what "socialism" means. I'd love to see the responses.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Which state in the US does the economy of Sweden compare to?

California has the sixth largest economy in the world, so we are ahead of Sweden.

To hear conservatives speak of California, we are a bunch of tree-hugging radical feminist metrosexual LGBTQ socialists (if not outright communists) -- who have fabulous winter weather.

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Chi

And the country would hurt badly without us. We subsidize a lot of states financially and provide a whole lot of food.

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margaritadina

''

THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Also, Socialism always ends up as Communism

Reference?

''

Karl Marx ''des Kapital''

You should know it by now since you advocate for socialism.

In case you wondered, yes, I read it back in a day. Scary stuff.

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Chi

Margarita, maybe you can answer since no one else will. Which Dems advocate for socialism and what specific policies on their platform are socialist?

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margaritadina

''

Chi

That's funny, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany, Sweden, the UK
and Denmark are ALL in the top 10 rankings of Global Competitiveness
Index 2019, compiled by the World Economic Forum. So 60% of the top 10
competitive economies are European countries.

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_TheGlobalCompetitivenessReport2019.pdf

''

That's not funny at all, Chi. Economies are strong but people have less cash after taxes. And make less $$$$ than we do.

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Chi

"That's not funny at all, Chi. Economies are strong but people have less cash after taxes. And make less $$$$ than we do."

And they are much happier than we are. I suppose it's a lot less stressful not having to worry about affording healthcare, college and childcare. And the average Swede pays 27% - that doesn't seem too bad to me for everything they get.

And it's funny when people make claims like their economies are being destroyed as an argument against "socialism" when it's actually not true.

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tryingtounderstand

I am pretty sure, many folk on this forum have travelled to Canada. I would be very surprised to hear them referring to canada as a socialist country, despite our many social programs. In fact, I often hear Americans stating that except for Metric System, they see strong similarities in culture, lifestyle, food preferences, sports, shopping etc.

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tryingtounderstand

Canadians pays slightly more income tax than do Americans. Canadians in BC pay 27% if they earn between 49-95k. Americans will pay 4,500 + 22% if they earn 39-85k.

Canadians do get more social programs, including 1 yr. parental leave. DD”s republican and trump supporting relatives were Beyond surprised to learn of this program. This especially became clear when both DD and her SIL gave birth within months of each other. The latter, wished she or her spouse could have taken a year off to bond with their newborn. They envied this program and wished it were available in the usa.

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Chi

It's funny - not many will call Canada socialist yet the "socialist" things they claim the Dems want are things that Canada already does. We wouldn't be any more "socialist" than Canada.

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ubro(2a)

Also, Socialism always ends up as Communism

No, not true.

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Money and Greed never sleep.
**************************************

Even Conservatives Support Sweden’s Welfare State. Here’s Why:


It’s practical and efficient, allowing for a very competitive economy while ensuring a high standard of living.

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queenmargo

Where is John Galt?????????????????????

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patriciae_gw(07)

I am continually confounded by these weird statements of putting "the government" in control or "the government" taking over or any other permutation of this idea that we give up control of our lives when we have government. Do you think government is something we found under a rock or did my friends the Space Aliens come down and take over imposing their Marxist will on us? No, we actually killed people to get rid of our old government and made up our own homemade government. Now maybe it is ugly in some ways but it is ours and we are it because that is how we made it. We have a Representative government so every time someone carps on about "The government" they are talking about themselves. I do wish people would absorb that little fact. YOU are "the government". So you don't trust yourselves to have your own best interests at heart? So maybe you are actually a fool who gives everything to seriously rich people? We can fix that.

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Wants to Grow

Hi patriciae, what old government are you referring? So far, since 1789, there has been only one Constitutional Republic government in the United States.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

The U.S. government is a representative democracy.

Or you can accurately call it a democratic republic.

Play all the word games you like--it all means the same thing--most people use the terms as synonyms.

Well, most people, that is-- except for Trumpsters/right-wingers who always have to put their own definitions on everything. But we already made that point in connection with the discussion of "socialism."

And when our lawmakers win office by a democratic vote or pass laws by a democratic vote, you are actually claiming that the democratic majority vote should NOT prevail? The side with the least number of votes should be the winner? Tell that to Senate leader McConnell the next time he tries to ram through a vote for an unqualified supreme court justice.

Don't think you will get many American voters to agree with minority vote wins.

Kate

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Wants to Grow

Hi Kate, You have the right in our Constitutional Republic to be wrong, but you are still wrong.

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JodiK

I don't know why some people are so against paying taxes for good causes... instead of paying them for the corruption and private settlements they're paying for right now.

By March of 2016, Chicagoans, alone paid out in excess of $650 million dollars just to satisfy lawsuits for police brutality, wrongful arrest, wrongful death or injury, etc.

And you're worried about paying taxes that would go for good causes that would help all citizens?

SMH...

I wonder how much Los Angeles citizens paid out in taxes to cover the misdeeds of their LE? What about other cities and burbs? Or don't you mind paying... as long as it's in the name of corruption?

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cait1

The U.S. government is a representative democracy.

Show me where it says that in any of our founding documents, please.

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cait1

Fear? Why fear?

Only leftists use emotions to make their arguments.

Right-minded people don't care one whit about emotions when it comes to government/governing and no one should. Government should not be an emotional mess but something based on reason.

Unfortunately, to be leftist one must abandon all reason and tug at heartstrings and scream and use crayons.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Representative democracy--or democratic republic--add "constitutional" to either term also. They mean roughly the same thing.

No one said those words were the exact ones used in "our founding documents." However, if you look up the definitions of those terms, you will realize that they accurately describe our form of government.

We've been over this same ground several times before. I'm still right--and I don't care to go over it one more time with you. Good night.

Kate


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“Only leftists use emotions to make their arguments.”

Only leftists...and Trump?

Because I see him whipping up a whole lot of fear, anger, and nostalgia, even some ecstasy. Those are all emotions, and none of them belong in good governance.

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Kathy

Trump uses emotions every time he threatens what will happen if you don’t vote for him, listen to him or bow to him. He uses fear!

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patriciae_gw(07)

Wanted, our "government" used to be a Parliamentary Monarchy-you know George lll? I would name the Prime Minister but they were going through them like TP at the time. We did in fact rebel against that government and created for ourselves a new one- a Representative Republic? probably the closest label for what we have now. I know that Parliamentary Monarchy is not the real label of the UK government-that is more of a description but is does the job.

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queenmargo

Kathy

Trump uses emotions every time he threatens what will happen if you don’t vote for him, listen to him or bow to him. He uses fear!

common Kathy, both sides use fear. Remember, how the stock market was going to crash if Trump was elected?

The church has used fire and brimstone.

Back in the day, kids feared their parents. Remember the old "wait til your father gets home"


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

cait1

2 hours ago

Fear? Why fear?

Only leftists use emotions to make their arguments.

Right-minded people don't care one whit about emotions...

———

Queen those of us who are mentioning the “emotional” side of Donald Trump are responding to this statement above, from cait.

I agree with you that both sides might use emotions to try to sway opinion and I don’t think that’s the most honourable method.

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queenmargo

Well,we know Trump has "emotion" . The left is trying to weaken him but it just makes him stronger. I understand his "emotions"

You may not think it is the most honorable, that's OK.

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Kathy

My response was because cait said only leftists use fear. That isn’t true.

cait1

Fear? Why fear?

Only leftists use emotions to make their arguments.

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JodiK

Kate, don't they have plenty of bogeymen, already? What with the growth of prejudices and bigotry, white supremacist ideas taking hold, an aversion to the homeless and poverty stricken, and a continuing list longer than both my arms... you'd think they'd be satisfied.

How true it is, though... we could have both Democracy and a bit of Socialism. The twain make a excellent mixture, and would help so many people who need that help. All we'd need to do is shuffle around the budget a bit, and voila'!

If other countries can do it with success, so could we.

Unless... some would rather their tax dollars went toward things like... oh, the death of our youth - soldiers for the American meat grinder are rather young. Or, maybe some would rather pay exorbitant salaries to politicians that can't even do their jobs. Or maybe they just like giving away their money in settlements against city employees. I don't know.

I know where I'd rather see such monies end up... where it should be... helping our citizens, realizing a cleaner environment and the saving of necessary resources, investing in our future and the generations therein, etc.

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JodiK

So... it doesn't appear to bother people that their tax dollars are used to charge, convict, plea bargain and imprison largely innocent people by the dozens... but if one suggests that those funds be used to help the public, well, we can't have that! Good grief, that might be a form of... GASP!... socialism!

SMH...

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elvis

The twain make a excellent mixture...

Been reading old poetry, I see. Okay.

So... it doesn't appear to bother people that their tax dollars are used to charge, convict, plea bargain and imprison largely innocent people by the dozens...

Please explain what "largely innocent people" are. Thanks.

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JodiK

No, I don't think you do see. Surely you're familiar with the English language beyond poetry. I've used that word probably a hundred times since opening a membership here.

But nice try at diversion of the topic at hand...

~~~

You don't know what constitutes an unlawful arrest or detainment? It might be to your benefit to brush up on your Constitutional rights, before someone you know becomes just one more statistic...

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mrskjun(9)

Hmmm could it be that Republicans read history?

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katrina_ellen

The entity that has the economic power has the power to control. And no, politicians do not always have the peoples best interests in mind - you only need to look at the totalitarian governments to know the truth about that. On a smaller level, the UAW reps have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar. That's the nature of unregenerate mankind - greed and lust, and you will never change that. The system has to be built more for protection against our representatives, other than giving them the control of the means of economic power that could destroy our freedom. Why do you think people come here in the first place?

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BetsyJ

Why are Republicans so afraid of democracy?

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Ziemia(6a)

One great way to protect us here in the USA from self-serving MoC is to limit campaign funding. (It makes some MoC the servants of the very wealthy - not of the voters).

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Ziemia(6a)

Easy to find examples with the reminder of LA county's history. Article gives plenty of search terms which some need surprisingly. Okay

"Thousands of legal battles involving the Los Angeles Police Department, including a rash of recent settlements over police shootings and wrongful imprisonment, have added up to more than 40% of the total — a higher sum than any other city department, the analysis showed. That includes more than $24 million paid to two men who were freed after decades in prison, along with lawsuits over arrests, injuries, car crashes and alleged retaliation and discrimination against its own employees."

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-city-payouts-20180627-story.html

From 2018.

"

#####

Every profession has bad actors. Some take issue with the way some incidents are hidden from view, particularly among law enforcement.

After all, many teach their children to trust emergency responders.

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/investigations/2019/04/24/usa-today-revealing-misconduct-records-police-cops/3223984002/

85,000 bad cops nationally over a long period of time is not a big number. However, there are a whole lot more cops and DAs and prosecutors hiding their records.

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haydayhayday

"BetsyJ:

Why are Republicans so afraid of democracy?"

Speaking as an independent...

Because I don't want to be ruled by idiots.

EDIT:

Most of my comments on this thread have disappeared. Things are not what they appear.

Hay

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haydayhayday

What kind of person would want to give the likes of this man more power over you and your health?


A) Smart people

B) Dumb people

C) Fools


EDIT: Most of my comments on this thread have disappeared. You're not allowed to see the entire conversation so a lot of things may not make sense.


Hay

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tryingtounderstand

“ What kind of person would want to give the likes of this man more power over you and your health?”

But what folk do not understand, is that: This guy, nor govt have power over one’s health. Never had and never will.

Big Insurance companies, however, do in fact have this power!

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haydayhayday

Wow.


EDIT: A lot of my comments are gone. This one remains. My "wow" is now totally out of context.


Hay

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JodiK

Thanks, Zemia...

There are both good and bad actors within just about all professions... but if we're teaching our children to trust what are first responders, including police, firemen, EMTs or other medical personnel, then we have to hope they are trustworthy!

What do we do when they're not? Well, one way to ensure they are is to keep them accountable for their actions, and even their words... they work for us, no?

Like some other governmental institutions, however, their own disciplinary entities come from within, like IA... and in the eyes of their union, they can do no wrong. They've effectively drawn a blue line, and they dare the average citizen to cross it. Even those good actors are often afraid to say anything against their coworkers, for fear of retribution.

So, it falls to us to keep an eye on them... to ensure that they are doing their job, without excess force, bullying, making up the law as they go along, taking out their bad days on the very people they swore an oath to serve and protect.

And you might say, "but they wear body cameras"... which somehow aren't on when they need to be, or aren't in working condition. What good are they, then?

Misconduct within our police forces, whether urban or not, is at an all time high, with unlawful arrests, unlawful use of force, unlawful searches and seizures, unlawful use of their weapons, etc... and it's the tax payer that foots the bill when such cases go to civil court.

Websites are overloaded with video and other accounts of officers engaged in what are unlawful practices. It doesn't take very long to find evidence of the worst of the worst. A quick search yields more than a person wants to see!

~~~

We are very fortunate to live in an area that has, so far, shown local officers to be aboveboard, friendly, helpful, and actually knowledgeable of our rights and their jobs. We've had no problems, and we know we can count on them to be there in a helpful capacity, should we ever need them. This is a very rural area, though, where people know one another, and everyone is friendly... for the most part.

Other citizens across our nation are not always so lucky. How many stories have we read where the police were clearly in the wrong, yet the court gave them a slap on the wrist, and what amounts to a paid vacation?

~~~

And yet, they get away with these travesties because people don't stand up for their rights! Many don't even know what their actual rights are! They effectively allow the police to step all over them... why? Just because police represent what they look at as authority, and we've been conditioned to bow to that authority?

This is not a dictatorship where one must show their papers upon demand! Looking or acting suspicious is not a crime! Passengers in a car do not have to show ID... they are not operating the vehicle in question. And there are so many more rights that police step on... because they know they can. Because they know most people will bend to their will.

Learn and know your rights! Keep our LE honest and doing what we pay them to do!

~~~

Back to the original subject... mixing a little socialism into our government to help the citizens!



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patriciae_gw(07)

It is a truth that the only thing worse than having a government is not having one.


Getting wound up in ancient definitions so you cant see the possibilities is maladaptive.

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haydayhayday

Another thread where a big portion of my comments are gone.

Just so you know.


Hay

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haydayhayday

And the "Say Something" thread has disappeared.

Just edit out the parts you don't like?

Funny forum we have here. Nothing is as it appears.


Hay


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haydayhayday

When you selectively cause some comments to disappear, but leave others to stay, you're left with a lie.

Hay

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haydayhayday

If I should disappear, you'll know why:

I spoke the truth.

Hay

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patriciae_gw(07)

Hay, we don't know why this sort of thing happens , it seems to happen for no reason or if you post pictures or memes it seems more likely to happen. I am fairly sure that it has nothing to do with what you are posting since you post the same stuff all the time.

And your view that socialism will lead to Totalitarianism is just plain wrong. You need to expand your universe. I realize this is for you equivalent to tossing yourself over the rail but sharing the rewards of productivity is not a road to perdition. It has been done safely and sanely which you would learn if you stop concentrating on places with problems instead of the ones that are working.

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mrskjun(9)

Read history!

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haydayhayday

Socialism:

I have my yearly exam with the dermatologist coming up in December. Three months ago, that was the earliest date I could set up. Medicare covers it.


Not Socialism:

Today, I'm having some pain in my tooth. I suspect it's going to be a case of a root canal. I just called my dentist. I'll see her in three hours. I pay cash.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Not Socialism:

While I'm over there, I'll do my grocery shopping. All things I desperately need to live. I expect that there could be...could be.... one or two people in the check out line ahead of me.

I'll pay cash.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Please don't bother asking any questions. You won't like the answers anyhow and will work to quell them.

Hay

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

You pay cash! Real money? Not using that little plastic thingo to save time? .

Actually, here in Socialist Australia, You have to mostly pay real money if you go to the Dentist because Dentistry is not widely covered by medicare. Ouch!

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Chi

"Socialism:

I have my yearly exam with the dermatologist coming up in December. Three months ago, that was the earliest date I could set up. Medicare covers it."

Or....since it's an expected yearly event, schedule next year's at your appointment.

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Ziemia(6a)

Most of my dental costs are covered by insurance. Alas, Medicare doesn't cover dental.

I get in to see my dentist with any emergency. Which are few thanks to routine upkeep.

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Ziemia(6a)

I miss the thread in Uncle Miltie. Nothing "illegal" showed up there from what I saw.

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bry911

Socialism:

I have my yearly exam with the dermatologist coming up in December. Three months ago, that was the earliest date I could set up. Medicare covers it.


Not Socialism:

Today, I'm having some pain in my tooth. I suspect it's going to be a case of a root canal. I just called my dentist. I'll see her in three hours. I pay cash.

----

First, neither one of these are socialism. Your dermatologist doesn't have to accept Medicare. He does so because he made a FREE MARKET business decision to do so. If your dermatologist is socialist because he increased profit by accepting a lower margin to access more patients, then Walmart is socialist too.

My doctor doesn't accept my insurance, or any insurance I am aware of and certainly doesn't accept Medicare. If I call her up now, I will probably get an appointment in an hour or two. When my son had appendicitis I called her a bit later in the evening and she swung by my house to look at him (my home was closer to her than the office). I do pay a fee for those services, and while she doesn't accept my insurance the lab she uses does, and I go back in network for more serious (expensive) treatments. She could choose to run her practice a different way and accept Medicare, but ultimately it is her choice to run her business any way she sees fit, as it is for your dermatologist. So you have to stretch the definition of socialism pretty thin to call that socialism.

Next, I chipped a tooth not long ago while chewing on one of those red and white after meal peppermint things. I was in my dentist's office that afternoon. Around that same time (that day or the next) my wife called to move her cleaning appointment, and was told the wait was several months (it always is). Just because you got in to see your dentist for dental pain fairly fast, doesn't mean his wait for a check-up isn't several months out. Nor does three months out to schedule a check-up with your dermatologist mean that he doesn't have immediate appointments available for the dermatological equivalent of tooth pain.

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Chi

Yep, if someone had suspected melanoma, they would get in really quickly. A yearly skin exam is not urgent.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, it has been well reported that there is a shortage of health care professionals in the USA. This is why so many places are booked weeks, sometimes months in advance and immediate appointments can sometimes be impossible.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/04/news/economy/health-care-workers-shortage/index.html

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/shortage-designation/hpsas

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haydayhayday

Funny. Try it yourself.

I just was looking at some sites to find out what some of my options are under Medicare.

It was confusing, but lucky for me, there's a number to call.

"Or call Medicare help line at 1 800 633-4227."

And so I did:

First I got some Spanish.

Then I got a message.

Paraphrasing:

Socialism:

"At this time we are currently experiencing high call volume and you might want to try calling later."

Not Socialism:

My dentist picked up on the first ring.

Hay



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Chi

Why don't you call your "socialist" dermatologist office, I bet they will pick up on the first ring too.

Comparing call times of a private dental office with an agency serving 44 million people is ridiculous.

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catspat(aka)

"At this time we are currently experiencing high call volume and you might want to try calling later."

Funny, that's the message I nearly always get when I call Comcast due to some internet issue and, if they aren't a great example of cutthroat capitalism, I don't know what is. :-)

ETA, even more hilariously (or worse, depending on your point of view), after announcing they are too busy to take your call, they will suggest you go online to troubleshoot your issue. If I could get online, I wouldn't be calling Comcast...

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bry911

What Hay apparently thinks socialism looks like:

I went to the store to buy some apples and I didn't know what kind to buy. There were Fuji apples, Red Delicious apples, Gala apples, Braeburn apples, Honeycrisp apples. I tried to find someone in the grocery store to help me, but they were all busy helping other people... Socialism.

What Hay apparently thinks doesn't look like socialism:

I went to the store to buy some Valencia oranges. I picked them up and walked to the checkout. There was someone readily available to take my money... So not socialism.

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Ziemia(6a)

Cuyahoga River fire.

Unbridled capitalism meets no advance government expenditures. (Outside of some fire fighting investment.)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

On a recent trip to a State Park in MN a person of my acquaintance became irate that when the bridge washed out in a flood, there were no stonemasons to be found to recreate the original pilings.

“THAT’S THE PRICE OF SOCIALISM; artists and craftsmen aren’t able to thrive!” she thundered (apropos of nothing, since the US does not have a socialist economic structure and those trades drifted to the wayside as a result of technical advances wrt the use of steel and cement).

The truly ironic part of the statement is that the entire park, buildings, bridges were created by the CCC, arguably the single most socialist program that the United States has ever run. And it continues to be maintained by the State which controls every single aspect of its utilization. The park would not be in existence were it not for “socialism.”

(The new bridge is timber frame and is simply gorgeous.)

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Kitchenwitch111


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patriciae_gw(07)

We could go on and on with this stuff, like when my land line phone was out for 17 days. Why do I have a land line? the Cell service is not reliable in my house because the phone companies don't make enough money to bother to include outlier communities like mine so when I used my cell phone from another company to call the land line company to let them know my phone had been out for days I had to wait outside in the cold rain for the 45 minutes to an hour that it always takes to get someone at my not socialist phone company using up my not socialist time on my not socialist cell phone. the only reason to do this is my very much for profit phone company has to rebate part of the phone bill as decided by my state government when they do not provide the paid for service and you have to tell the company they are not providing the service even though they have to know who doesn't have any. When I did not get my expected rebate I had to call again on my now working not socialist phone and I asked the person(after waiting for about 45 minutes) how I was supposed to let them know when the phone didn't work and she suggested using a cell phone. If I lived in a socialist leaning country like in Europe they are very forward in trying to make sure everyone has cell and internet service if It is possible.

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JodiK

Don't look at me, Hay... I have never, not even once, disappeared or asked for the disappearance of anyone's words, or even memes. Nor would I ever.

I think what we post should stand... if nothing else, as a collective context of who we are, and what we stand for.

I don't care to read disjointed threads, either... they make little sense.

~~~

I think that some people just don't understand what socialism is. And I think this is directly related to some of that conditioning sometimes spoken of... not to mention a media that often plays on public emotion and can make some people think about words or ideas in the worst way possible because of how they are presented.

We already employ several programs that work very well, and they are what one might call socialism. Egads, we have Social Security, an infrastructure that was created through a system like socialism, along with all those beautiful parks and preserves mentioned above in the bridge story, and so much more!

None of those things are tearing our nation apart, or turning it into something terribly evil.

~~~

How come, Hay, I can get the first available appointment with my doctor whether I pay cash or use Medicaid, or have another type of insurance? They're not interested in my mode of payment... they're interested in how bad my health issue is, and how quickly I need the intervention of the doctor.

Maybe the issue really is... your doctor is busy, and that's the first appointment they have available, given the nature of your issue.

You can't really compare, with any accuracy, tooth pain with a yearly exam with a dermatologist. Tooth pain is acute and requires attention fairly quickly. A yearly exam is... a yearly exam.

Do you, by chance, have a pile of apples and oranges you're trying to get rid of, or something? ;-)


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marquest(PA zone 6)

Why are Republicans so afraid of Socialism?

It is simple. Because they are told to be afraid.

When is the last time they were afraid of Debt. In History it has never been higher. SILENCE!!!!!

Republicans are afraid of what boogie man they are told to fear for the moment.


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haydayhayday

Not Socialism:

So, I have an appointment now with the Root Canal Doc. From calling this morning til I see the specialist: Nine Days.

Bry:

"...my wife called to move her cleaning appointment, and was told the wait was several months (it always is). Just because your got in to see your dentist for dental pain fairly fast, doesn't mean his wait for a check-up isn't several months out."

I asked my dentist, just for fun:

Me:

"Just curious, if I wanted a Cleaning Appointment, how soon could you schedule that?"


She:

"Tomorrow, but if you don't take that, you might have to wait two or three weeks. I can check."


Me:

"Thanks, no need. Just curious."

Hay


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haydayhayday


Chi:

"Comparing call times of a private dental office with an agency serving 44 million people is ridiculous."

Can't disagree with that.

You know how the government is always trying to break up the large companies simply because large is bad in so many ways? So they say.....

But, the Federal Government? Efficient no matter how big.

And forget about innovation. Why bother?

Socialism.


Hay


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haydayhayday


Not Socialism:

Then I go grocery shopping. No lines.

On Tuesdays the local, greedy, capitalist grocer gives a 10% discount to Senior Citizens.

Greedy pig. Not Socialism.

Hay

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Chi

"So, I have an appointment now with the Root Canal Doc. From calling this morning til I see the specialist: Nine Days."

That's a long time. I can get in same-day for a root canal. Cleanings are also quick to schedule at my office.

Each individual office is different in terms of waiting time and availability and it has nothing to do with socialism or not socialism.

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Chi

"Then I go grocery shopping. No lines."

So now grocery lines are socialist? People truly have lost any understanding of the meaning of socialism.

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haydayhayday

Not Socialism:

Then I go to the local greedy bank. No lines. Drive up and drive out the car lane. Just me and the newfangled machine that spits out money.

Socialism:

Then, I stop off at the Post Office to pick up mail and packages. They're closed from 1 to 2 and I got there a few minutes early.

Me and the other two guys waited..... and waited... and talked about the pitfalls of Socialism.

At 6 minutes after 2, we could hear the postal worker hang up the phone and the conversation she was enjoying and the window opened. 8 minutes after the hour when I drove away.

Hay




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haydayhayday

Socialism:

The Post Office can't even open the window on time when they have an hour to do it.

Not Socialism:

I ordered something a week or so ago from a capitalist pig and was told that they could not, (would not?), deliver by mail. Only FedEx.

I distrust that they'll find me out here in the middle of nowhere, but I needed the part.

OK, send it by FedEx.

They promised to deliver it by yesterday, Monday.

I'm out raking some of my fallen leaves this last Saturday, two days before their promised delivery, and up drives a Budget Rental truck with my package. Two days before promised.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Kitchenwitch:

Who can't be against raised wages, jobs, cheaper and better health care,(Social Security is iffy), and a more livable environment?

Wanting it and Delivering it are not the same thing.

If wanting is the measure of how good it is, then I want at least two servants for every man, woman and child.

Hay


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vedabeeps

“I distrust that they'll lme out here in the middle of nowhere, but I needed the part.“


“Out here in the middle of nowhere” most likely explains short waits at the Dr and a post office that closes for lunch.

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katrina_ellen

Oh wise ones, explain what socialism means to you. What is it about government ownership of the means and distribution of production excites you?

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Ziemia(6a)

What means of production is owned by the US federal government? And what is the related backstory?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I don’t consider public schools, public transportation, public housing, or public medical care to be “government ownership of the means and distribution of production.”

Those things are NOT SOCIALISM.

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haydayhayday

I'm a patient man.

This is me four hours ago:

"It was confusing, but lucky for me, there's a number to call.

"Or call Medicare help line at 1 800 633-4227."

And so I did:

First I got some Spanish.

Then I got a message.

Paraphrasing:

Socialism:

"At this time we are currently experiencing high call volume and you might want to try calling later."


So after four hours, I just now called that number again.

Guess what!

"First I got some Spanish.

Then I got a message.

Paraphrasing:

Socialism:

"At this time we are currently experiencing high call volume and you might want to try calling later.""

Hay



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Kitchenwitch111

Katrina, I don't want Socialism. I want affordable health care, a protected environment, quality education, sensible gun control and equal and compassionate rights for all humans. I want what Democrats want.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Hint: Monday, or the day after a holiday, is generally known to be the worst day to call public agencies. Fridays, on the other hand . . .

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haydayhayday

Kitchenwitch:


"Katrina, I don't want Socialism. I want affordable health care, a protected environment, quality education, sensible gun control and equal and compassionate rights for all humans. I want what Democrats want."


Dear Santa Claus....


Hay


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haydayhayday

Nancy:

"Hint: Monday, or the day after a holiday, is generally known to be the worst day to call public agencies. Fridays, on the other hand .'

My Dentist has office hours that are ridiculously early for those who need to work. She picked up the phone right away this morning, the day after a Federal holiday.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I love all your helpful hints about how to get around the system. It's what people living under Socialism need to do. A lot of time is devoted to it. It turns us all into criminals.

I used to go to a different dermatologist. Without fail, he always found ONE, always EXACTLY ONE, little blemish that needed to be cut off and sent to the lab.

My back is pockmarked now. And that Dermatologist has some more of your money.

I don't go to him anymore.

Hay




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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Pay more taxes so pubic agencies can be properly staffed to answer incoming phone calls!

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haydayhayday

Back in the good ole days when I paid cash and didn't have Medicare, I'd go the Doc, get what I needed, nothing more, nothing less, and pay him for it. That simple.

Today, with Medicare, the Docs spend a good portion of our time together trying to figure out how they can evade the system by finding the perfect "code" in their Medicare code book that will be the best deal for both of us.

Socialism at work.

Hay


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haydayhayday

Nancy:

"Pay more taxes so pubic agencies can be properly staffed to answer incoming phone calls!"

The Socialist solution to all the failed government programs:

Give them more money. Take away more of my freedom.

Socialism.

And the thing about Socialism? It always needs more fixing.

Hay

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Wants to Grow

In the spirit of Hay's examples, let me offer one that illustrates the difference.

Not Socialism:

I want to taste Wagyu beef for the first time. It's too expensive for me to order in a restaurant. Price at the gourmet grocery store for A5 ribeye is $300 per pound, which is way out of my price range for a taste. Thanks to free market capitalism, I can purchase 1/2 a pound for $150.


Socialism:

The ONLY beef for sale is ground chuck. But hey, it's cheap.

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Chi

"Back in the good ole days when I paid cash and didn't have Medicare, I'd go the Doc, get what I needed, nothing more, nothing less, and pay him for it. That simple."

No one is forcing you to use Medicare. Feel free to go back to cash if you disagree with "socialist" Medicare so much.

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numbersjunkie

Hay,

You seem to think that your individual life experiences are typical, and the conclusions you draw from those experiences should dictate the direction of our country and how the rest of us should live. Your comments above further suggest that anything that inconveniences you personally must somehow be the result of socialism.

You can throw out all the anecdotal evidence you want, but it doesn't change the reality.

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Chi

"The ONLY beef for sale is ground chuck. But hey, it's cheap."

So how do we get from providing healthcare access to everyone to only having ground beef available? What are the steps, and which Democrats are supporting the government taking over grocery stores?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Not socialism:

Farmers decide what to plant based on their local climate/growing conditions, market projections, and personal interest. Everyone who eats votes with their dollars on what they would like to have available.

Socialism:

The government subsidizes the crops it wants to see grown, artificially inflates or deflates the price of those crops, for political reasons imposes tariffs on foreign countries that want to buy those crops, then uses tax dollars to bail out the farm corporations who have bought up the smaller farms when they went broke.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Chi, Is Socialism so narrow minded, we can only have one example on the subject?

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Wants to Grow

Hi miss lindsey, YOU NAILED IT!!! Thank you for providing a great example of socialism.

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Chi

"Hi Chi, Is Socialism so narrow minded, we can only have one example on the subject?"

Nope, there can be several examples of socialism. What I am curious is how people make the leap between what Americans want, which is access to affordable healthcare for all, with grocery stores only selling one kind of meat.

And since it's proclaimed that the "socialist Democrats" want to turn our country socialist, I'm interested in which ones have suggested that everything, including grocery stores, go under government control.

So far no one has been able to give me an example of what they accuse the Democrats of doing, which is trying to turn the entire country socialist. And for the entire country to go socialist, it means there would be no more private ownership of anything. Can you tell me a single Dem candidate who has proposed that?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Socialist is what you want it to mean. It is a made up word coined by someone or other back in the mid 1800's and from the get go they all squabbled about who made it up and what it meant. It can mean control over production but what does that mean? When a government interferes in someone's factory by dictating that you cant make something with equipment likely to chew the hand off the person feeding the machine that is in actual fact a form of socialism. It is a form of control. Extrapolate that out.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Chi, Whether government is planning and controlling the economy for healthcare or food, the results are the same under socialism, shortages.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

My neighborhood grocery story sells several different grades of hamburger. I always get the most expensive: ground round. Considerably less fat. But I could just as easily buy a round or sirloin steak, if that is what I preferred.

I'm curious about where some of you live--where there are evidently frequent food shortages! Doesn't happen in my everyday neighborhood.

Now the "convenience store" not too far from here where I gas up my car also frequently is out of whole wheat bread, but I rarely grocery shop there--everything is slightly more expensive. The cost of "convenience," I presume.

So which of those is an example of capitalism, or of socialism? I assume that they are all examples of capitalism, but after the above definitions and examples, I'm totally confused.

Kate

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Chi

"Hi Chi, Whether government is planning and controlling the economy for healthcare or food, the results are the same under socialism, shortages."

So all the many countries who have universal healthcare, including Canada, Australia and most in Europe, have shortages?

Can any of our HT members from places with universal healthcare confirm that they can only buy one type of meat at their grocery store? Are there any other shortages of consumer goods that you haven't been able to get because you give your citizens healthcare?

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numbersjunkie

Medicare for All is a funding mechanism for healthcare. It is not planning and/or controlling healthcare. Now the VA system is a different matter.

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haydayhayday

"Kate;

"I'm curious about where some of you live--where there are evidently frequent food shortages! Doesn't happen in my everyday neighborhood."

As a very general statement, you get "shortages" with Socialism. The result of trying to avoid "gouging" for instance.

Under Capitalism, as a very general statement, taking care of the "shortage" problem is relatively easy: You just raise the prices.

In a hurricane aftermath would you rather have no plywood at a cheap price or as much as you want at the right price?

Generally speaking.

Hay


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haydayhayday

Interesting too, is that after the last big Hurricane in Houston, (I think that's the one)), when bottled water was in high demand, guess who ended up bringing it in quick and efficiently.

A)The Government

B) Walmart and the other Grocery chains.

You really shouldn't have to think about that too long.

Hay

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“ Are there any other shortages of consumer goods that you haven't been able to get because you give your citizens healthcare?”

I mean, I can’t get original flavour Trident gum here in Canada but I haven’t been able to conclusively link that to the fact that I pay for my healthcare through taxes.

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Chi

I am sure your fellow Canadians appreciate your sacrifice in the name of healthcare for all, miss lindsey.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Hay do you consider all types of controls on industry to be “socialism”? Laws against price gouging, environmental controls, consumer protections wrt unsafe or toxic products, those are “socialism” to you?

I’m trying to get a sense of what you think socialism is and is not and your above examples aren’t helping me much because I don’t consider any of those things you named to be socialism.

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ubro(2a)

In a hurricane aftermath would you rather have no plywood at a cheap price or as much as you want at the right price?

I would rather I lived in a society that saw price gouging in the face of tragedy as something everyone would be against.

As a very general statement, you get "shortages" with Socialism. The result of trying to avoid "gouging" for instance.

Good lord, again with the false ideas about Socialism, I too, like miss lindsey have no idea what you see as Socialism, because you are not talking about countries such as Canada.

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catspat(aka)

The government subsidizes the crops it wants to see grown, artificially inflates or deflates the price of those crops, for political reasons imposes tariffs on foreign countries that want to buy those crops, then uses tax dollars to bail out the farm corporations who have bought up the smaller farms when they went broke.

Pretty much what happened when Earl Butz, Secretary of Agriculture under Nixon and Ford (were they socialists?), decreed that commodity crops like corn should be planted "from fencerow to fencerow" and forced that to happen with government policies that subsidized commodity crop prices and nothing else. Butz pretty much destroyed family farms and, almost single-handedly, made corn the dominant crop in U.S. agriculture. I'm rather surprised that Wants to Grow considers that "socialist", because it was, in practical terms! But, it is also what Republican administrations did.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Chi, According to these reports, universal health care is struggling across the world.

According to a report from Agence France-Presse, however, one of the crown jewels of the welfare state, Sweden, spends extravagantly on healthcare yet finds its prized universal healthcare system succumbing to the same forces that have doomed all other such programs, with waiting lists growing ever longer and doctors, nurses, and hospitals becoming ever scarcer.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/europe/item/29955-sweden-s-universal-healthcare-system-goes-the-way-of-all-others

The francophone province's health care system was implemented in the 1960s at the behest of a commission led by Dr. Claude Castonguay, the so-called "father of Quebec Medicare."

Forty years later, in 2008, Castonguay was asked to review Quebec's health care system again. He concluded that Canadian health care was in crisis. "We thought we could resolve the system's problems by rationing services or injecting massive amounts of new money into it," he said.

His prescription for Canadian health care? "We are proposing to give a greater role to the private sector so that people can exercise freedom of choice."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2011/06/06/single-payer-health-care-systems-multiple-health-care-disasters/#36f599e32658

There, some hospitals are moving to ration care for those who are officially deemed obese — that is, anyone who has a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or more. Oh, and while they're at it, they will also ration care for smokers, too.

Why? "To plug a funding black hole," as the British Telegraph newspaper put it. Translation: Britain's National Health Service faces such a serious financial crisis that it now has to deny care to some people, despite its claims of "universal care." And who better to deny care for than two of the most despised groups in today's modern society — those who are obese and smokers?

https://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/u-s-shouldnt-copy-u-k-s-collapsing-single-payer-health-care-system/

The government of Finland collapsed Friday due to the rising cost of universal health care and the prime minister's failure to enact reforms to the system.

https://freebeacon.com/politics/finnish-government-collapses-due-to-rising-cost-of-universal-health-care/

Australia’s single-payer system is a mess, too. A recent report found that more than 14,000 Australian patients waited over a year for elective surgery between 2015 and 2016. More than 7,000 either died waiting for a procedure or were unable to be contacted.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jun/29/single-payer-health-care-system-is-a-failure/

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Chi

So how does universal healthcare change wait times? It's still the same amount of patients, doctors, staff and hospitals as there would be if everyone had private insurance, right?

Is it because without universal healthcare, lots of people who can't afford to see a doctor or pay for their prescriptions don't clog up waiting rooms but just die instead? Do we rely on those deaths to keep the rest of our waits shorter?

Or is it because many people do the minimum of doctor visits now because they can't afford the co-pays and deductibles, and with universal healthcare they would be able to do things like see a dermatologist for a skin scan? Will we have to wait longer because more people will have the audacity to seek better healthcare for themselves?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Wants, all surgeries are elective unless you are unconscious. I had "Elective" surgery for cancer. I had to "choose" not to die of the cancer that I had. But I don't think that is the sort of surgery in your sample above. These terms have no meaning across different systems. If you die while waiting for surgery on your big toe nail is that dying while waiting for elective surgery-and you got hit by a bus by the way. How about dying while not waiting for surgery? You cant have surgery because you have no insurance and cant afford to pay for it yourself? That is what happens in America the Beautiful.

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Kathy

We only have choices if we have enough money to do so. I see more of the privatize profits and socialize costs in the GOP. They are always trying to privatize more entities while using taxpayers money to absorb the cost. Private jails, the USPS, sport stadiums, big Banks, etc.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

I cannot believe the content of this thread and the word Socialism is rubbish when applied to first world countries.

There is nothing much left for the state and federal governments to sell off to private enterprise here. I've written before about the big big computer system that looks after medicare. Hay seems to think that there are an enormous number of people looking after the system when in fact the number of medicare offices keeps dwindling.

Food shortages? None that I know of and the real cost of food has gone down over the years.

Country going to turn Communist? Not likely when there is a 91% voter turnout

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BetsyJ

Why are Republicans so afraid of democracy?"

Hayday: Speaking as an independent... Because I don't want to be ruled by idiots.

I can't quite decide what hayday wants - a dictatorship or anarchy?

Yet, there are plenty of idiots in those forms of "government" too. Probably more idiots.

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katrina_ellen

In a purely socialist system, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government, and individuals rely on the state for everything from food to healthcare. The government determines the output and pricing levels of these goods and services.

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Ziemia(6a)

Socialism - government ownership of the means and distribution of production.

What means of production is owned by the US federal government? And what is the related backstory?

PS: 'socialism' doesn't seem to mean what many 'Trump for President' people want it to mean. 'Social' ≠ 'Socialism'

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Ziemia(6a)

Interesting word used here: *rationing care" (re NHS)

"There, some hospitals are moving to ration care for those who are officially deemed obese — that is, anyone who has a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or more. Oh, and while they're at it, they will also ration care for smokers, too."

Well, health problems are exacerbated by excess tissue in many cases. (There are obese folk with few health issues - there is a wide range in what "obese" means.)

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bry911

Single payer healthcare is not without some problems and those could be rather serious problems. So if you look at a single payer system in a vacuum you might get discouraged, however, the question isn't whether or not single payer is the perfect system, it is whether or not single payer is better than our current system.

On this front we should be honest, it will be hard to be worse than our current system. There are so many problems with the current U.S. system that discussions like these are often hilariously one sided.

First, let's be honest, we essentially have a socialist healthcare system now, all the crying about socializing medicine is a bit of a joke. In the U.S. you can't be refused medical treatment for serious conditions regardless of your ability to pay. There is nothing free market about that. In 2017, 67% of patients who received hospital bills didn't pay the entire amount. We are already subsidizing care for those who can't pay. Do you know why emergency rooms are so expensive in the U.S.? Because they are filled with people who should have seen their doctor days, weeks, or months earlier but couldn't afford it, so once their condition is serious enough they go to the ER where they are treated and they never pay.

Not to mention the inefficiency lost to employer funded healthcare. I know I sound like a broken record, but I will say it again. If you put 100 of the world's best economists in a room and asked them to design a healthcare system, they may never agree on the best system. However, it will take only a few minutes to arrive at the worst system, employer funded.

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As for articles that prove the point that single payer struggles... of course it struggles. However, some of the articles listed are a bit much.

For example, the truth being that Finland's right leaning government resigned when their plan to substantially cut services and privatize some portions of healthcare rather than raise taxes by $367 per person over the next several years was rejected. This is spun as, "The government of Finland collapsed Friday due to the rising cost of universal health care and the prime minister's failure to enact reforms to the system."

Also, Sally Pipes... P hacking isn't new, she isn't the first to do it, but you should seriously consider discounting all of her work. I will give her credit for her accomplishment, she had made a comfy life for herself by selling manufactured results to a group of people who are willing to pay for those manufactured results.

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tryingtounderstand

So, if the USA system was somehow made more financially accessible to the larger population, would there be wait lists?

if more Americans could access the current health system, would there be wait times?

Finances or lack thereof, IS a form of healthcare rationing!

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haydayhayday

Speaking as an independent... Because I don't want to be ruled by idiots.

When the evidence stares you in the face and you continue to ask the question, who is the idiot?



Hay

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Iris GW

If there are more patients then there should be a demand for more doctors, caregivers, medical facilities which typically encourages more people to enter the system as providers. The system could encourage more people to enter the field by giving medical scholarships, low cost (or free) loans, etc.

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haydayhayday

Government is a lot like fire in my mind.

I'm smart. I'm afraid of it.

If I use it, I use it judiciously. Generally I use as little as I can. I want to carefully keep an eye on it because I know how easily it can get away from me. I know that once it gets too big, I'll lose any semblance of control over it.

Why am I so afraid of fire?

Because I'm not an idiot.

Why do I still use fire?

Because I'm not an idiot.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Hay:

"Please don't bother asking any questions. You won't like the answers anyhow and will work to quell them."


Hay

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JodiK

Well, gosh, Hay... you clearly fell asleep on that job! Look at how out of control our government is! I thought you were watching it so it didn't get out of control!

You're fired! ;-)

~~~

I think Marquest nailed it... they're afraid of the word "socialism" because they were told to be afraid of it. They aren't sure, exactly, what it is or what it can do, but they're afraid of it.

It falls under the same category as all the other bogeymen they're told are bad. So, now... we are building an ineffective wall, refusing visitors from specific countries, rounding up specific ethnic groups and separating them from their own children - which we place in what amount to prison camps, and the list goes on.

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haydayhayday

Jodik:


"I think Marquest nailed it... they're afraid of the word "socialism" because they were told to be afraid of it. They aren't sure, exactly, what it is or what it can do, but they're afraid of it."

Someone like Milton Friedman?

He's not an idiot.

Any more ideas you want to throw out?

Hay

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haydayhayday

Hay:

"Please don't bother asking any questions. You won't like the answers anyhow and will work to quell them."


Hay

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sjerin

People with wealth are interested in keeping our capitalistic society going as-is. Some people without wealth and without education are more susceptible to being led to act (vote) against their own best interests.

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