Why Do Millenials Like Socialism?

elvis

Edited to save you all from one of those agonizingly long posts, complete article at the link


...Why do polls show that a majority of American millennials have a favorable view of socialism? There are lots of catalysts for the new socialism...


...immigrants flee from poor areas of Latin America, Mexico, Africa and Asia that were wrecked by statism and socialism. Often, they arrive in the U.S. unaware of economic and political alternatives to state socialism. When they reach the U.S. -- often without marketable skills and unable to speak English -- many assume that America will simply offer a far better version of the statism from which they fled...


Another culprit for the new socialist craze is the strange leftward drift of the very wealthy in Silicon Valley, in corporate America and on Wall Street. Some of the new progressive rich feel guilty about their unprecedented wealth. So they champion redistribution as the sort of medieval penance that alleviates guilt. Yet the influential and monied classes usually are so well off that higher taxes hardly affect them. Instead, redistributionist taxation hurts the struggling middle classes...


...Universities bear much of the blame. Their manipulation of the federal government to guarantee student loans empowered them to jack up college costs without any accountability... More than 45 million borrowers now struggle with nearly $1.6 trillion in collective student debt, with climbing interest. That indebtedness has delayed -- or ended -- the traditional forces that encourage conservatism and traditionalism, such as getting married, having children and buying a home. Instead, a generation of single, childless and mostly urban youth feels cheated that their high-priced degrees did not earn them competitive salaries...


...Finally, doctrinaire Republicans for decades mouthed orthodoxies of free rather than fair trade. They embraced the idea of creative destruction of industries, but without worrying about the real-life consequences for the unemployed in the hollowed out red-state interior.


Add up a lost generation of woke and broke college graduates, waves of impoverished immigrants without much knowledge of American economic traditions, wealthy advocates of boutique socialism and asleep-at-the-wheel Republicans, and it becomes clear why historically destructive socialism is suddenly seen as cool. Regrettably, sometimes the naive and disaffected must relearn that their pie-in-the sky socialist medicine is far worse than the perceived malady of inequality. And unfortunately, when socialists gain power, they don't destroy just themselves. They usually take everyone else down with them as well.

https://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/history-is-clear-socialism-isnt-the-cure-so-why-do-millennials-like-it/

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rob333 (zone 7a)

By socialism, do you mean they don't identify as Republican? Or do you mean they want healthcare? I don't know anyone who wants socialism. It's more of that radical-left terminology the alt-right uses. Knee jerk, spread false information using the same phrasing so the sheeple believe.

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queenmargo

UGH! I wish I really knew Elvis. I have a millennial and I think it is that we allowed them to stay socialized too long on social media in the basement.

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katrina_ellen

Free college I'm guessing, I blame brainwashing in public school as well.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Chi, that's what I think it is too. And if that's their definition of socialism, I take it back. I want socialism. I'm far from a millennial, but I'll have some of that. I'm tired of footing the bill, not only without help from others with more money, but adding salt to the wound, alt-right wants to give them more money.

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Ann

Uggggh, the universities! Don't even get me started on my opinion of the damage they are doing.

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Chi

Not everyone is for free college, but I do think everyone agrees that the current system is not sustainable. 18 year olds shouldn't have to sign on to massive debt to educate themselves. Even state schools (which used to be the affordable option) are often tens of thousands of dollars a year.

I'm a millennial and my peers are frustrated that they did everything right to get an education yet they are saddled down with massive debt that keeps them from buying homes. Meanwhile boomers who paid for college with summer jobs and could buy a home with a couple year's salary are mocking them for buying too much avocado toast.

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Ann

Katrina, absolutely in public schools. In all of the education system, starting at Kindergarten.

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Ann

Rob, I think millenials have a lot more than healthcare on their minds. The idea (misconception IMO) of free "stuff" is very appealing to them.

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Chi

We could stop with the condescending assumptions about millennials. We are not stupid, and we know it's not really "free." But we also don't think it's right that people are literally dying because they can't afford their medications and don't qualify for help. Healthcare should not be for-profit.

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chisue

Ooo! Let's not have public education. It's...it's...*socialism*! We don't want educated citizens -- certainly not *voters*. They'll figure out how the wealthy stay on top in this 'land of opportunity' while spouting nonsense about 'bootstraps' that they never needed.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

...immigrants flee from poor areas of Latin America, Mexico, Africa and Asia that were wrecked by statism and socialism

Drug cartels and their supply chains are independent of any political system.

Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras are *not* socialist countries.

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katrina_ellen

Ann, yes, I'm familiar with the indoctrination from the very young and on thru college, The "progressives" have taken the socialist agenda all thru the education system. This is not right, its brain washing. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the colleges like they talk about insurance - the main University near me owns half the city.

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patriciae_gw(07)

First of all there is nothing wrong with Socialism. someone should give it an actual try. The so called failed socialist countries are typically failed totalitarian regimes that are labeled socialist. Is totalitarianism the inevitable result of trying pure (as in Marxist) socialism? If so it hardly matters since that is not the form of Socialism that our young are talking about. It might be news that there is more than one form. Here is some astonishing news for Hay for instance, there is more than one form of communism! How about that? In any case the concept at hand here is Democratic socialism which does not require government control of resources or industries, just some controls and bizarrely enough we already have that to a degree. We have all sorts of laws on how you must treat your employees and you have to have a safe work place and all sorts of other insane controls on industry. In Democratic Socialism government (that is you by the way through your elected representatives) delivers a lot of the things people need in order to prosper in their society. We have Medicare for instance that delivers access to health care to old people. It works. We have socialized publicly owned bridges and roads and that works pretty well too. and so on.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Show me where they want free stuff? You're totally making that up.

ETA: and I'll go farther and say they're more generous than boomers. I've seen articles like this more than once https://www.thestreet.com/story/14445741/1/why-millennials-are-more-charitable.html

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cattyles

My millennial son at Texas Tech has a political science professor that is into neoconservative indoctrination. She uses a cattle prod on them if they question it.


And he’s had to work for what he wants since he was old enough to do chores.


And even though I might be exaggerating about the cattle prod, they are not to question her opinions.

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

In re indoctrination: I find that absurd. Teachers have no time for brainwashing even if they were so inclined, which they are not (at least none I have known in 30 years of teaching in two different states and several different districts). An uneducated or under-educated population opens the door for the failure of our republic.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

They like "socialism" because this is probably one of *the most* spoiled generations to walk the earth, but wait, you haven't even seen generation Z. As for why they have an interest in "socialism", I don't know, might want to ask a millennial?

At least boomers can say they changed the world, and generation X is too busy taking care of both their aging parents and their own children to worry half as much about millenials. GenX is also one of the smaller generations, in comparison to the boomers and millenials.

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Carro

Why? Because they are a generation of protected snowflakes who got everything they've wanted, spoiled by their parents who God forbid, allowed them to miss or go without. They are the YOLO!!! generation it's all about getting it today.

They also have no clue how much everything costs, how much opportunity will be lost and how much their kids will suffer if they choose socialism.


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rob333 (zone 7a)

Jenn, you too need to read the article on the most charitable generation alive in the US.

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Carro

patriciae_gw(07)

First of all there is nothing wrong with Socialism...


Oh


Dear


God


That's why people from socialist countries are invading OUR borders.

It's like there are not history books or internet!

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Kitchenwitch111

I think that our younger generations care more about the "we" of our country than the "me". Some people think that is Socialism, but it's not.

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Chi

"They also have no clue how much everything costs, how much opportunity will be lost and how much their kids will suffer if they choose socialism."

Yep, imagine a world where you don't have to worry about losing your house if you get sick, and where you can get an affordable college education. The horror!

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

"That's why people from socialist countries are invading OUR borders.

It's like there are not history books or internet!"

Ummm, no. Also, no one is "invading our borders." Facts matter.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Millenials and Gen X are dealing with a changed economic landscape -- it's tough for all.

Low unemployment doesn't mean that all have a living wage, or are in the conventional workforce.

Crikey, I would hate to be starting my adult life in these times -- unless I were from a wealthy family (which I am not).

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haydayhayday

Chi:

"We could stop with the condescending assumptions about millennials. We are not stupid, and we know it's not really "free." But we also don't think it's right that people are literally dying because they can't afford their medications and don't qualify for help. Healthcare should not be for-profit."


Hay

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elvis

Kitchenwitch111

I think that our younger generations care more about the "we" of our country than the "me".

The sweetness and generosity of your comment makes my heart glad, but I disagree with you. You're conferring your best qualities upon them. Like I wrote, "sweet".

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

@rob333

I forgot to put an /s after the 'selfish' bit, I figured it would come across because of what I was saying with "socialism". As I'm either the last of GenX or an 'old' millenial (depending on whose parameters for birth years mark the end and beginning of the two generations you're looking at), I identify most of my life experiences with the Generation Xers, not so much the millenials. :P Still, one can be charitable while still being selfish. (Some might even say "it's easy to be charitable with someone else's money"...)

Boomers were still bloody selfish too, and everybody moved on to everything being about the millenials...No one bothered to notice GenX right there in the middle - most of us got college educations, tried to do the standard "work for the same company 40 years and your loyalty will be repaid" thing, and we're constantly being ignored. :P

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Chi

"The sweetness and generosity of your comment makes my heart glad, but I disagree with you. You're conferring your best qualities upon them. Like I wrote, "sweet".

And I disagree. As a millennial with a decent income and an excellent healthcare plan, I would GLADLY give it up and pay more in taxes to see everyone get healthcare. I think it's barbaric that healthcare is not seen as a basic human right in our country, and we are willing to let people die if they can't afford care.

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katrina_ellen

I know a young lady in college who is being indoctrinated not to eat meat, and that the gas the cows eliminate is so very harmful to the environment. She had to write a paper on it in her English class. I know a 10 year old that told me she hopes she can live 10 more years because of global warming. This is from what she is hearing in school.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Science is scary!

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

She should change schools if that is what her college-level English class assignment is.

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katrina_ellen

Nothing like scaring children is there.

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haydayhayday

Patriciae:

"Is totalitarianism the inevitable result of trying pure (as in Marxist) socialism? If so it hardly matters since that is not the form of Socialism that our young are talking about. It might be news that there is more than one form. Here is some astonishing newsor Hay for instance, there is more than one form of communism! How about that?"

There's hundreds of varieties of doughnuts.

They're all bad for you.

Once you start down that path, you don't control the outcome.

They all tend to lead to the same place.

It's the nature of the beast: When you start using force to impose your will on me, expect it to not end well.


Hay



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rob333 (zone 7a)

actually Jenn, I too am Gen X. I am put to shame by their generosity.


;)

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Ann

I have several grandchildren from high school on down. For years, I've been amazed at their answers when I ask what they are learning or discussing in school. To sit and listen to their answers is simply remarkable.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

The real baddies are those Scientists. They should not be allowed to invent new procedures to keep people alive and improve quality of life. Those goodies cost MONEY!

Wacky and wonderful, more like wacky, stingy and wonderful.

Another day dawns here in the Socialist land in the South Pacific.



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catkinZ8a


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Chi

Once again proving that the right just throws around this new "socialist" buzzword without understanding what it means.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

@rob333

The mister and I provide charitable donations in the form of goods and/or money to the local battered women's shelters in our area (we did this back in SoCal too). My parents have always sponsored several children through UNICEF (I think that's the program?) which they do to this day. I think the only part of my immediate family that doesn't give to charity is my brother, but he's always been like that so I've learned to love/take him as he is just like I want him to do with me.

And now we're adoptive parents as well as foster parents, which has filled our home with joy and lots of laundry. ;)

All and all, it really doesn't matter what generation you're from, charity is a way of life not limited to what year you were born in.

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Ann

That's a great meme, catkin.

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haydayhayday

Ask anyone born after the Cold War what they learned from the Russian Revolution and it's aftermath.


Hay

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elvis

I agree with this definition of "socialism":

"Socialism" is a political term applied to an economic system in which property is held in common and not individually, and relationships are governed by a political hierarchy. Common ownership doesn't mean decisions are made collectively, however. Instead, individuals in positions of authority make decisions in the name of the collective group. Regardless of the picture painted of socialism by its proponents, it ultimately removes group decision making in favor of the choices of one all-important individual.

https://www.thoughtco.com/a-definition-of-socialism-3303637

Thoughtco.com is not politically biased, for those of you ready to attack messengers bringing definitions that don't fulfill your agenda:

Overall, we rate ThoughtCo Least Biased based on minimal use of loaded language and simply answering questions with evidence. We also rate them Very High for factual reporting due to excellent sourcing of information and being used to assist in fact checks

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/thoughtco/

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patriciae_gw(07)

Socialism means sharing. Socialism means caring. Socialism means looking at the way people have been organizing themselves and judging how that has been working for EVERYONE and tweaking the system to make it work better for all the people. socialism is not about being lazy. Socialism is not about being entitled. Humans are social being and just like cows or chickens, given the opportunity we will herd or flock up for efficiency and protection. Cows and chickens have rules. We have rules. It is our nature. Not being cows or chickens our rules are more elastic. We can think out solutions to things cows and chickens never even dreamed of (so far as we know) and at the moment we need some new solutions for the enormous herds of people we now have. That is not donuts.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, that is only ONE form of socialism. You need a more complete entry in your dictionery.

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B DC

It would serve everyone well to do a crash course on what age group millennials actually are. A quick google search should help you steer your insults correctly. Considering baby boomers reared a significant percentage of this population, I guess your parenting is a shining factor and reflection of your generation’s values.


What is that quote Boomers love? Something something point a finger something something more are pointing back.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

So if there is universal healthcare in the US, Microsoft, Apple, Wal-Mart, Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon would be operating in an economy that is socialist?

Is a vegan diet also part of socialism?

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Iris GW

Uggggh, the universities! Don't even get me started on my opinion of the damage they are doing.

They're turning our children into LIBERALS!!

LOL.

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Ziemia(6a)

LOL

The definition provided by elvis for Socialism reflects the way most state governments work

It doesn't say "all property is held" or "all relationships" etc.

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catkinZ8a

Rich.

__________________________


patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, that is only ONE form of socialism. You need a more complete entry in your dictionery.

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haydayhayday

patriciae:

"Socialism means sharing. Socialism means caring. Socialism means looking at the way people have been organizing themselves and judging how that has been working for EVERYONE and tweaking the system to make it work better for all the people. socialism is not about being lazy. Socialism is not about being entitled. Humans are social being and just like cows or chickens, given the opportunity we will herd or flock up for efficiency and protection. Cows and chickens have rules. We have rules. It is our nature. Not being cows or chickens our rules are more elastic. We can think out solutions to things cows and chickens never even dreamed of (so far as we know) and at the moment we need some new solutions for the enormous herds of people we now have. That is not donuts."

Indeed, you do have lots of versions of "socialism".

This appears to be the Pollyanna Fairy Tale Version.

Hay

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ubro(2a)

Another day dawns here in the Socialist land in the South Pacific.

... and here in the Great White North.

I read and laugh at all the fearful bunk thrown out here about socialism and the scare tactics used to inflate socialist govt. programs into some barbaric totalitarian plot.

Geee how scary is it that our universities are turning out moral, kind, ethically minded youth, Boo!

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haydayhayday

This is closer to the reality.

Starvation in Ukraine under the USSR.

People will Die.

Hay

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

I think the endless confusion over what is socialism versus what advanced economies are like is unhelpful. I find socialism repugnant. I am very happy to live in an advanced economy with some social supports. For a taste of a country without supports, like social security, Medicaid, snap and such, see Somalia.

The question is how much social support are we willing to provide. What needs are best met through us all working together, like public schooling, versus us working on our own?

What alarms me in younger generations (I am an Xer) is their distrust of free speech and their interest in wealth redistribution.

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catspat(aka)

Victor Davis Hanson is, at best, a sloppy thinker and an even worse raisin farmer (listening to him constantly whine about not having pre-1914 water rights during the recent drought here in CA was nearly unbearable). How one can have 48+ comments about millenials "liking" socialism in this thread when it's not even clear, from Hanson's opinion piece, what sort of "socialism" they are liking -- is it just the pseudo-socialism of democratically-socialist Nordic countries or do they want to go full-Soviet? -- is beyond me. The only thing clear in Hanson's article is that he doesn't like millenials, for some reason.

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haydayhayday

It's a lot like Cheeserolling. It looks like fun. It starts out as a lot of fun.

Once you commit, there's no turning back and you have no idea where you'll end up.

Only thing guaranteed is that somebody's going to get hurt.



Hay


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katrina_ellen

Socialism is based on an inaccurate understanding of the nature of man. Lets all share and care - nobody takes more than the other, all contribute equally - lol. Dreams of a corruption free big daddy government are not based in reality.

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sheesh(5b)

You're right, Katrina ellen. Man's inhumanity to man sums it up perfectly. Twas ever thus.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

Not the only thing guaranteed... a lot of people have a great time, lots of money is raised for charity and someone gets a fantastic cheese to take home. And if anyone does get hurt the NHS sorts them out.

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elvis

Socialism means sharing. Socialism means caring.

^^^No, that's just good manners and getting along in society.

We're not donuts, true. We're not chickens or cows either. If you want animal analogies, read Watership Down.

We're talking about socialism as a form of government, not how to get along in the sandbox.

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patriciae_gw(07)

When the educated young men sitting around tables in cafe's sat arguing how to fix the world they decided that workers ought to be getting a much bigger share of the wealth that they created vs the Kleptocrats (aka aristocracy and owners) who owned the means of production. It is a very old and complicated relationship. Once they settled that,the problem of how to go about organizing such a thing came up and the early people working this out fell out in a big way over whether or not those same workers ought to have any say about how they were organized. Typical. Of course in those days the average worker wasn't even literate. Our founders argued some of the same points because of the same reasons. In some peoples minds the answer was totalitarianism-one big kahuna elected once and set for life who as big daddy made all the decisions with the help of little kahunas in all the factories and farms. Because we are humans we are not stuck with this sort of thinking. We get to look at the original problem, too much of the results of the work of workers goes to the owners and decide that instead of taking ownership we put rules on how much they can take. We can decide how much everyone has to pay into the social system we live in. It is not set in antique cement. There is not just one decision and obviously totalitarianism isn't very workable. It is not in and of itself evil. It just doesn't take average human nature into account.

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katrina_ellen

Meanwhile the UAW Union is being fleeced by union officials. I thought they were looking out for the little guy?

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blfenton

We could stop with the condescending assumptions about millennials. - chi

My kids hate been targeted with the term millenial because of the condescending assumptions. They don't have a lot of extra cash lying around, at the ages of 30 and 32 they both have mortgages to pay down, but they have both spear-headed charitable and community-involvement programs within the companies that they work for and many of their friends do the same.

And what I find laughable is Canada been called a socialist country simply because we have a medical system that provides care to all paid for by our taxes. By that definition, the vast majority of first-world countries (and many that aren't) would be classed as socialist countries. But if getting hung up on labels makes you feel better about your choices and attitudes then go for it.

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bob_cville

> Nothing like scaring children is there.

Amusing coming from a person on the right, where they are all about fear and scaring people. In the minds of the right:

  • Believing that access to healthcare is a basic human right is exactly the same as believing that all corporations should be seized and placed under government control.
  • Believing that people shouldn't be able to buy a veritable arsenal of military grade weapons is simply the first step towards kicking down doors and seizing all weapons everywhere, and then marching people to concentration camps.
  • Believing that people crossing the southern border are not the cause of all ills facing our country and that not all of them are murdering, drug-dealing, rapist, child-traffickers is exactly the same as demanding open borders, forcibly busing them into our country, and letting them vote on day one.

Whereas regarding the gas the cows eliminate (aka methane), it is scientific fact that the total bulk amount from all cows everywhere is detrimental to the environment. It is a greenhouse gas many times more potent than carbon dioxide.

And as far as the little girl, while the view she expressed is extreme and unlikely it is a more reasonable and rational view then the head-in-the-sand, blithe, complacent, refusal to acknowledge facts that defines many on the right.

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elvis

Fenton, I don't think of Canada as a socialist country. Leaning somewhat, yes. However, with the example of the shiny capitalist country of USA right next door, so far they've managed to keep it sane. USA goes socialist, and the world goes straight to hell.

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Chi

Wait so Canada is only sane because of the US being next door? That's a new one.

Canada probably gets good lessons in what not to do from watching us!

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patriciae_gw(07)

You don't have to think of any country as socialist. You do need to adjust your idea of what socialism is and that socialism is inherently evil. Capitalism doesn't have to be evil. We make it evil by how we allow capitalists to control too many parts of our collective culture. Now see how I used the word collective? It means all the parts when I use it that way. Socialism is an equally elastic term. Use the parts of the original ideas that work and leave off the totalitarian Leader. You can be like Scandinavian countries-places with many socialist programs.

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jerzeegirl(9b)

There are different kinds of socialism just as their are different kinds of capitalism. I think the millennials are upset about how the older generations are basically screwing them in myriad different ways (environment, jobs, healthcare, education, etc) and they want to step in to save their own world. They see socialism as a means to an end.

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chase_gw

" However, with the example of the shiny capitalist country of USA right next door, so far they've managed to keep it sane."

That is just about the most ridiculous statement I've heard on HT and there have been many !!!!

Mind you happy to see you think our social programmes like universal healthcare, maternity and paternity leave , reasonably priced post secondary education etc sane.

Also happy to see the US starting to follow in our footsteps.

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ubro(2a)

Canada probably gets good lessons in what not to do from watching us!

Hence the outcome of our recent election. We do have a fear of Trumpism, in fact, being labeled 'just like Trump' is one of the worst insults a politician can receive.

USA goes socialist, and the world goes straight to hell.

Hahahahahah, USA goes socialist, and the world will start to breath a sigh of relief. My use of the term of socialist is in the context of countries like Canada, Australia, and some of the European ones, not the 'dirty socialist' meaning of the word that the right loves to fear monger with.

Gee how do those countries that look after their own people with medicare survive? goodness how oppressed and unhappy they must all be. LOLOLOLOL.

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barncatz

I also have one millenial - flying home this weekend for a quick visit - yay! She started college at 27 and almost seven years of higher education later, she'll earn her Masters this spring. Even with our support for her education, she'll have a debt burden. She's grown so much, especially since the University where she's working on her Masters has introduced her to incredible people in her area.

I'm surprised at the criticism. I find her and her friends to be funny, tolerant, physically at ease and comfortable with themselves, and thoughtful in the best sense of that word.

They grew up in a far broader world than boomers did. They did reap the rewards of some of the first wave fights, including exposure to sports for the girls, that taught them values of cooperation and connection and strength. And boys benefited from being able to form friendships with girls. That mitigated the macho values that have led to the cutthroat capitalism millenials are smart enough to see profit only a tiny sliver.



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Kathy


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foodonastump

'm a millennial and my peers are frustrated that they did everything right to get an education yet they are saddled down with massive debt that keeps them from buying homes.

Does “everything right” include relatively affordable schools and studies that could lead to a reasonable income? I know it’s hard and I do think we need more affordable education options, but I hope you’re not advocating for large scale debt forgiveness.

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jerzeegirl(9b)

barncatz: I love what you just said.

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chase_gw

My daughter is Millennial and she and her friends are not at all as some describe. They are bright, hard working, fun loving, responsible adults.

Perhaps it is because they have grown up with the security of universal healthcare and are not unencumbered with huge student loans so they are able to pursue careers, home ownership and families in a secure social environment.

I love their energy and positive attitudes.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Universities have become more and more expensive and that means people have to take out student loans to pay for what any financial aid they qualify for doesn't cover. The boomers were able to work part time and go to college without it ultimately carrying along a debt (for most of them at least) that gets so large they couldn't afford a house or to have a family.

I went to community college and then transferred when I had completed all the lower division general education and major-specific courses I needed - to a private college in the heart of Orange County California. I was lucky enough to qualify for a Pell grant and have all of it available to use because I hadn't used it up on the lower level stuff, the rest I worked to pay for and had some significant parental help on (education was important to have, after all) so I was able to avoid the student loan trap. I used inherited money long set aside to gather interest to buy my first house (the down payment was sizeable and that made it so I only required a short term mortgage that I paid off well before the full 15 years had passed) and then when we sold that place the money made from the sale went into moving/updates/etc sorts of expenses and the new house we live in out here with plenty to spare - I'd been driving a 12 year old with 50Kmileage car and sold that to a struggling college student the day before we got on the plane to Omaha. The house is 3x the size of the one we sold in SoCal. For every decision there were foreseeable and unforeseen consequences. The mister had been leasing a place before he moved in with me, and the money he saved on that was enough to dedicate strictly to paying off his remaining school debt before we decided to get married. I figured that it would be silly for him to keep paying for a place he rarely slept at anymore, and since I owned mine it would be a good arrangement as long as he used the money to get himself debt free - yeah he was putting aside some for retirement but not nearly as much as he could and paying off his student loans was important for both of our futures. :)

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Ann

"Socialism means sharing. Socialism means caring. Socialism means looking at the way people have been organizing themselves and judging how that has been working for EVERYONE and tweaking the system to make it work better for all the people. socialism is not about being lazy. "

Whoa!

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elvis

Average student debt in 2019 is around $30K. I daresay many of you spend more than that on one vehicle.

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Linda

Maybe because it's better than Trump-ism?

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blfenton

But I wouldn't qualify for a car loan at the dealership or the bank unless I had a job to support it. We bought a Subaru last year and the interest rate on the loan was .005% (half a percent). Did we take a loan out? He!! yes. Left our own money in the bank.

The interest rate on federal student loans is (quick google search) 4.5%

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patriciae_gw(07)

Glad it was illuminating for you Ann. That is what socialism is about. All of us supporting all of us. Instead of the maladaptive rugged individualism, it is a recognition that we are stronger together. I am my brother's keeper. We all are in this together. I always vote to educate my neighbor's children. Always. And I don't just mean Americans because we are not on the planet by our selves.

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Chi

"Average student debt in 2019 is around $30K. I daresay many of you spend more than that on one vehicle."

It's all relative. $30k isn't that much to me now but it sure was at 22 when my first job was barely making more than that. And with the interest rates, add another $10k+ before it's paid off.

It's still way too high considering student loans kick in after grants, scholarships and parental contributions.

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Joaniepoanie

Katrina


I know a young lady in college who is being indoctrinated not to eat meat, and that the gas the cows eliminate is so very harmful to the environment.


*********

This is correct.....try doing some research on factory farms. And with Trump’s deregulation and nearly eliminating USDA inspections, expect more cases of tainted meat and food-borne illnesses.


I have three millennials——all college grads, all working and hard-working, all paid off student loans, all married, all bought homes—-two in high-priced metro areas. Yes, we did help them some, but they saved the majority of what they needed. And for the most part, all of their friends have done the same.



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elvis

It's still way too high considering student loans kick in after grants, scholarships and parental contributions.

I agree. I wonder if sending their kids straight to university is partly a prestige thing for parents. A couple of years at a community college would make more sense in that it is so much less expensive. A lot of required courses can be taken care of at that level. They can finish up at a 4 year university. About half of college graduates say that their education wasn't worth the $$$, and that's certainly understandable.

Nearly half of indebted millennials think college wasn't worth taking out student loans, according to an INSIDER and Morning Consult survey. The survey polled 4,400 Americans — 1,207 of them identified as millennials, defined by the survey as people ages 22 to 37 (237 respondents did not select a generation).

When asked whether their student loans were worth attending college based on their financial situation, about 21% of respondents said "definitely no" and about 23% said "probably no." Nearly 27% said "definitely yes," while 26% said "probably yes."

Their answers all boil down to student-loan debt.

For millennials who said college was definitely or probably worth it, there were more respondents who had previously paid off their student loans entirely (64%) than those who are still paying off student loans (48%). The opposite holds true for the millennials who said college was definitely or probably not worth it — there were more respondents who are still paying off their student loans (49%) than those who previously paid them off (33%).

In short, those who are paying off their debt seem to feel worse about their decision to go to college, while those who have already paid off their debt feel better about having gone to college.

https://www.businessinsider.com/millennials-college-not-worth-student-loan-debt-2019-4

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

A couple of years at a community college would make more sense in that it is so much less expensive.

A few years ago I remember hearing that transfers from community colleges had a hard time being accepted at University of California campuses. I don't know if the situation has changed, but the advice then was there was a better chance of acceptance applying as a freshman.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Why do millennials favour “socialism”?

Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers

Most of us were raised on a fairly steady diet of empathy, compassion, kindness, and respectful curiosity about people who were different from us.

Is it any surprise that we view “strangers” as people not to be feared and value cooperation and generosity?

(btw the people my age of my acquaintance who do fear “others” and don’t value cooperation weren’t allowed to watch tv as kids. That’s my own anecdotal experience of course.)

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elvis

@ Nancy: Why wouldn't anyone be accepted? Poor grades?

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elvis

Lindsey, "socialism" doesn't mean "sociable". Socialism isn't about being nice.

sociable

[ˈsōSHəb(ə)l]

ADJECTIVE

  1. willing to talk and engage in activities with other people; friendly.

    "being a sociable person, Eva loved entertaining"

    synonyms:

    friendly · affable · amicable · cordial · neighborly · hospitable ·

    [more]

    companionable · gregarious · convivial · clubbable · warm · warmhearted · good-natured · genial · easy to get on/along with · lively · communicative · responsive · forthcoming · open · outgoing · extrovert · easygoing · easy · hail-fellow-well-met · approachable · accessible · chummy · clubby · matey · regular · conversable

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Why wouldn't anyone be accepted?

Too many applying for spaces available. (Don't you remember the college admissions scandal -- at least one was for admission to UCLA.)

Perhaps there's a preference for those transferring from a four-year college?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“Socialism” is in quotes in my comment because what Millenials embrace, that the right wing seems so terrified of, is not Socialism a la Venezuela or Stalin. It is not fascism.

It is empathetically cooperating to boost everyone along so that we can all rise together without clambering over each other’s corpses.

The illustration Kathy posted is perfect.

The OP asks why Millenials embrace socialism. It isn’t because of immigrants or wealth guilt or universities.

It is because we heard a message of empathy and cooperation in our youth, and we believe it.

(and again, what we embrace is NOT fascism which could exist under any economic structure.)

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bry911

It's all relative. $30k isn't that much to me now but it sure was at 22 when my first job was barely making more than that. And with the interest rates, add another $10k+ before it's paid off.

To be fair, the average payment on new student loan debt is between $310 and $330 per month. It really isn't a giant amount of debt and the interest is a deduction for AGI, so the net payment for the first year is something around $285 to $305 per month. Certainly, that is not a lot of money and well within the marginal income provided by a college education.

We hear a lot about massive student loan debt, but the reality is that people who borrow responsibly usually walk out with a very reasonable amount of debt. Much of the problem comes from those who max out their loan amount when they really didn't need to. Go to any Community College the day after the student aid disbursements and watch the seats open up.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)


https://youtu.be/17gKw_j6Qq0

A little levity from Mr. Arlo Guthrie. Song starts at 5:47 if you don’t want to listen to the poetic ramblings of Mr. Guthrie. skip to 6:50 for the kicker if you’re short on time or patience.

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catkinZ8a

Welcome, 'B DC'!

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Linda

Many students lose course credits when transferring from community colleges to 4-year colleges. You'd have to be very, very careful to check all your courses out before taking them. And even then, you never know for sure...colleges can change what courses they'll accept at any time...and what courses will count toward a certain degree can change also from year to year. Who would want to have to much later add a second level of a foreign language course because of changing college requirements, for instance?

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hollybar

Somethings never change....until they do.


Truman was right then, the sentiment is right now.

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Lidia

Anyone here grow up in a socialist or communist government? Would love to hear from them.

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elvis

They'd probably be afraid.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

There is a participant on the decorating side who grew up in the USSR. She has nothing nice to say about it.

Of course socialists say true socialism has never been tried.

And capitalists scream that every social support is socialism.

Socialism is not a useful word. It's far too ambiguous in meaning.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Growing up I always thought Republicans were crazily overstating the dangers of communism. Then the wall fell and I met a lot of people from former communist countries and I realized the Republicans were right. Communism is terrifying.

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Lidia

I’m thinking those who embrace socialistic ideals have never lived in a socialist government or really understand history.

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catkinZ8a


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Lidia do you consider Canada to be socialist?

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Lidia

@ miss Lindsey
I’ve never lived in Canada nor have I lived in a socialist government. Both my parents have. I’ve visited Canada, loved it, but I wouldn’t want to live there under their healthcare system, from what I’ve read and from anecdotal stories I’ve personally heard.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

But Lidia what I’m wondering is how you use the word “socialist.” Does that word apply to Canada as far as you are concerned?

The reason I ask is because I am an American living in Canada. I have several close friends including my best friend who are immigrants from former soviet bloc nations. We discuss their home countries and life under communism fairly regularly. They all love Canada and have become citizens, some even work happily within the “socialist” health system. People who lived under communist dictators and got out don’t seem to have a problem with Canadian socialized community supports in my experience.

(I could never go back to the anxiety I see my American family experiencing as they try to afford medical care but that is another topic!)

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Lidia

@ miss Lindsey, compared to communism, socialism is certainly preferred. From what I’ve read about socialism in Canada, y’all have your own issues. I think preference in government is based upon personal experience and personal needs. I’m sorry I didn’t realize by the OP’s question when they referenced millennials I assumed those from the US. Socialism is a government system, it strips individuality, equalizes wealth and stagnates the economy. I’m happy you are loving being a Canadian citizen, it’s your choice to be there. It’s nice Canada accepted you as a citizen. Both my parents fought and sacrificed to be American citizens, and as a first generation, I will do my best to work hard, succeed and honor their sacrifices. I’ve known amazing millennials and horrible ones...I’m guessing there’s great and gross apples in each generation.

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Chi

"Socialism is a government system, it strips individuality, equalizes wealth and stagnates the economy."

Which Democratic policies do you think will lead to this scenario? Everyone having healthcare coverage?

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haydayhayday


Clearly not Socialism. No one seems to be using any force.



Hay

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haydayhayday

Yep, he said it.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/truman-socialism-scare-word/

The context was that he, himself, wasn't running for office. He was stumping AGAINST Dwight Eisenhower.

One Socialist trying to outdo another Socialist?

"Much of Truman’s speech was a caustic rebuke of Republicans (and their presidential nominee, General Dwight D. Eisenhower), whom Truman characterized as having “opposed almost all our programs to help the economic life of the country” and “having blindly turned [their] back on the tradition of public action for the public good”:

Eisenhower? Really?

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2015/1115/Was-Eisenhower-more-of-a-socialist-than-Bernie-Sanders

"Saturday night, during the second Democratic presidential debate, when candidate Bernie Sanders was asked how high he intends to raise taxes, the Independent Senator from Vermont said his campaign “hasn’t come up with an exact number yet.”


“But it will not be as high,” Sen. Sanders added, “as the number under Dwight D. Eisenhower, which was 90 percent,” prompting a chuckle from moderators."


90% NINETY PERCENT!

That's not Socialist enough for you?

Hay




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haydayhayday

More of the speech:

"[Republican Senator Robert] Taft explained that the great issue in this campaign is “creeping socialism.” Now that is the patented trademark of the special interest lobbies. Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.

Socialism is what they called public power.

Socialism is what they called social security.

Socialism is what they called farm price supports.

Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.

Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.

Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people."

Somebody got it right:

CREEPING SOCIALISM:

The speech is from 1952.

Hay



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haydayhayday

1952:

"Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations."

1975:

Jimmy Hoffa disappears.

Hay

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elvis

Re the cookie-cutter meme that Kathy has posted a couple of times and Hay re-posted. This one:


I have to chuckle when I envision those that think this is a good idea^^^. So all of you want to be faceless, identity-free, clones? Really? Cuz that's what's going on up there^^^. Get your Chairman Mao jackets ready.


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Kitchenwitch111

I'm not sure about the chart that Hay posted above. Could some of the increased spending be due to inflation? Rate of inflation from 1950 to now is almost 1000%. None of our dollars are buying what they used to.

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haydayhayday

Kitchenwitch:

"I'm not sure about the chart that Hay posted above. Could some of the increased spending be due to inflation? Rate of inflation from 1950 to now is almost 1000%. None of our dollars are buying what they used to."

Just incredible.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Socialist at work.

They could have just taken a giant step and not have to always march around in unison.

Or just leave the pole across the gap for anyone to follow and not have to be carrying it around forever.


Hay

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Ann

"Growing up I always thought Republicans were crazily overstating the dangers of communism. Then the wall fell and I met a lot of people from former communist countries and I realized the Republicans were right. Communism is terrifying."

I once shared a two person office with a person who grew up in the USSR (a Jewish person). I was astounded at what I heard from him over the many months we were office mates and became friends. Communism is terrifying!

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Chi

Can anyone answer what is so "socialist" that all the Dems are promoting? Specific examples?

I just hear a lot of hysteria about this path of doom with no actual examples.

Is it healthcare for all? Is it the rich paying their fair share of taxes like the middle class does? Is it affordable college? I've heard all of these things.

I have never heard a candidate propose taking everyone's money and distributing it. I have never heard a candidate propose that there should no longer be private property or ownership.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“I’m happy you are loving being a Canadian citizen, it’s your choice to be there. It’s nice Canada accepted you as a citizen. Both my parents fought and sacrificed to be American citizens, and as a first generation, I will do my best to work hard, succeed and honor their sacrifices.”

Lidia, I am not a Canadian citizen. For similar reasons that you describe, I have never (yet) sought to obtain citizenship.

I can only infer that you do believe Canada to be socialist, since you didn’t choose to answer my question outright.

You asked for the experiences of people who grew up in communism. I don’t have that first hand experience, but I do have the benefit of close communication with people who did and who have chosen “socialist” Canada as the best country in which to start a new, free life. They simply do not see Canada as repressive socialism or infringing in their liberties despite our single-payer health care system.

(rather than relying on anecdotal accounts when deciding on whether or not Canada’s health care system is adequate, look at numbers and data. But if you are interested in the anecdotes, there are lots of threads here on HT wherein Canadian citizens and residents outline their experiences.)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

To build on Chi’s comment, which candidates are suggesting that the US nationalizes the means of production?

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ubro(2a)


Socialist at work.

They could have just taken a giant step and not have to always march around in unison.

Or just leave the pole across the gap for anyone to follow and not have to be carrying it around forever.

Ahhhh nothing warms the heart more than RW scorn for their fellow man. A capitalist would be standing there charging a fee for others to cross or picking up the stick and going home allowing those people in need to fall, some would probably be helping others into the abyss. Is that a better way to live in this world? Watching others suffer because of personal greed? You can have both you know, some socialism along with some capitalism, it is not an either or situation.


Communism is terrifying!

Absolutely, that is why we are not a Communist country, and that is why we chose a socialist leaning govt..

Fear of the unknown is real, and most of the posters that disagree with socialism are fearful of a system they don't understand. They are so busy trying to make it out as an all or nothing scenario because they don't understand how other countries manage to balance both freedom and socialist programs. They spend way too much time posting info on socialist extremes they miss the most important factor, that many countries are not fully socialist, but having to admit that fact doesn't fit their panicked agenda, it isn't fearful enough.

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Chi

It's just fear mongering. I can only assume they don't post specific "socialist" examples that the candidates have proposed because most people would think "hey, that sounds good!"

It's better for them to whip people into a fear-based frenzy on nothing but projections and pictures of Mao, lol.

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bry911

I’m thinking those who embrace socialistic ideals have never lived in a socialist government or really understand history.

[and later]

From what I’ve read about socialism in Canada, y’all have your own issues.

The problem being none of what is being talked about is really a socialist system...

Socialism is an economic system where production is owned by the government. No one really knows where the line is between an economy being socialist and capitalist is, and frankly we now doubt that the system is truly binary. For example, healthcare in Canada or Australia (which are similar to what is being proposed in the U.S.) doesn't fit into either category. The invisible hand, which is the driving force of free market efficiency, still fits in those models. You still have consumers driving consumption and production so choice exists, which by definition distinguishes these systems from socialism.

We have many sectors of our economy that are socialist now, the U.S. military is an example of a socialist sector in a free market economy, as well as fire, police, and roadways. None of these things made us socialist any more than the things being discussed today will. In fact, the things being discussed in the U.S. today keep the invisible hand intact, you still get to decide what to produce, you still get to decide what to purchase and there is still the fundamental reaction between those two things. As purchasing in one area slows and increases in another area, so too will production.

In the end, if you want to know how socialist a country is look at is public sector employment. In the U.S. somewhere between 15% and 17% of jobs are public sector. In Canada somewhere between 22% and 24% of jobs are public sector. In those Communist countries that we are so being warned about that number was 90% to 100%. To put that into perspective, In Wyoming about 25% of jobs are public sector... That is right folks, Wyoming is apparently a Socialist state. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?

Some countries who have the same institutions that people are wanting here have lower percentages of public sector jobs. Germany, for instance, has a lower percentage of workers employed by the government but according to the label as we seem to want to use it would be more socialistic. In reality, the label is just wrong.

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elvis

Socialist at work.

They could have just taken a giant step and not have to always march around in unison.

Or just leave the pole across the gap for anyone to follow and not have to be carrying it around forever.


Hay

That could involve proscribed thinking, that is, thinking outside the parameters set forth by their Dear Leader. There is always a Dear Leader, you know. This would not be permitted. Someone would have to turn them in, er..."out" them. You know, for the good of all.


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“That could involve proscribed thinking, that is, thinking outside the parameters set forth by their Dear Leader. There is always a Dear Leader, you know. This would not be permitted. Someone would have to turn them in, er..."out" them. You know, for the good of all.”

OH! I get it!

Like “RINOs”, right?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“Socialist at work.

They could have just taken a giant step and not have to always march around in unison.”

Yeah! And the ones who can’t make the leap will just fall into the abyss.

No worries though, as the bodies pile up it will be easier for everyone else—they can just walk across on the corpses of their kin.

Of course no one knows how many corpses it will take to eventually bridge that gap but no worries—the good jumpers will survive and that’s really all that matters, right?

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chase_gw

Apparently Medicare for some is OK , even good, but Medicare for all is socialistic........

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haydayhayday

Well, well, well, looks like we have a quorum of the NItpickers on board now.

We can all set back and let them answer all your questions about just EXACTLY what the word, "Socialism", really means. I'm looking forward to what a bunch of True Socialists will arrive at.

Please, show us all.

(I'm fond of the Pollyanna Fairy Tale Version myself. Just missing the handsome Prince. )


I'm also fond of this version:


Bry:

"In the end, if you want to know how socialist a country is look at is public sector employment.

Funny. I'll let you own everything.....Except I'll be the single government employee with the only gun and will take 99.9% of your "profit".

We won't call it Socialism, though.

Funny.

Keep talking. Please.


Hay


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bry911

Oh, paint me surprised...

Another non-sequitur appeal to the extremes from Hay.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Oh good grief. Even the people who invented socialism couldn't agree on what they thought it meant. We get to decide what we mean by it. Words mean what you want them to mean. If you cant wrap your mind around this use of socialism make up a new word and we will use it. Social Democracy has been proposed. If people can suddenly start talking about being gifted something I think we can make the big leap here. It is incredulous that people wont get with the picture-to use another word that has been in recent flux.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Apparently Medicare for some is OK , even good, but Medicare for all is socialistic

At the time, President Kennedy was attacked for bringing socialized medicine to the US. Now that there is strong public approval of Medicare, the description of "socialized medicine" has largely been dropped, except by conservative true believers.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Well if you want nit picking hay, Pollyanna is not a fairy tale and there is no handsome prince.

There is however a community who rallies around a hurt little girl who, it turns out, has in turn helped many others in the community. It is almost verbatim the “pull yourself up by your bootstraps we should help one another without government intervention just donate your own time and talent to your neighbour” story that some right leaning posters here love to preach.

Goodness, know your film history man!

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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Funny.



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Chi

We can all set back and let them answer all your questions about just EXACTLY what the word, "Socialism", really means. I'm looking forward to what a bunch of True Socialists will arrive at.

We're just tired of the Republicans accusing Democrats of being socialists yet can't name a single policy that is "socialist." You've also accused Obama of "socialist tendencies" yet couldn't specify what those were.


Funny. I'll let you own everything.....Except I'll be the single government employee with the only gun and will take 99.9% of your "profit".

Which Dem candidate proposed taking all guns and 99.9% of profits?


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Ann

Medicare (and how it is paid for) is nothing like M4A would be. We've discussed the mix so many times. Docs get lower rates from Medicare patients, but good volume. They get higher rates from those pre-Medicare but lower volume. The balance works for docs and keeps them well paid (which keeps enough of them practicing). Workers pay for it throughout their working years, but don't get the benefit until age 65 and above (or because they have certain disabilities/illnesses) - when most are most likely to need more health care. About 60 million people receive it.

This is a very different discussion than M4A, its price tag, who and how many would use it, how it would be paid for, and the ramifications to doc pay and hospital/facility funding. Apples and oranges!

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Ann

We can look north to get a feel for how it would work! Paying for it is an entirely different topic for us than for our northern neighbors. We have nearly twice as many people on Medicare alone as Canada has in total population and our population is 10 times that of Canada.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

The USA is paying twice as much in US dollars compared to other first world countries. The key word is per Capita. There should be economies of scale to save money. My take is that the USA has the extra load of expense in business paying health fund premiums.

The Health fund provider that only provides Private Hospital cover to myself and wife is mutual.

Complexity is expensive!

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bry911

We can look north to get a feel for how it would work! Paying for it is an entirely different topic for us than for our northern neighbors. We have nearly twice as many people on Medicare alone as Canada has in total population and our population is 10 times that of Canada.

Why does the number of people? This is like saying 5% of 100 is a bigger percentage that 5% of 1,000... It might be a bigger number but it is still 5%.

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Chi

"My take is that the USA has the extra load of expense in business paying health fund premiums."

Yep, all that extra money goes to maximizing insurance company profits. If we removed that from the equation, we would be spending way less.

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bry911

My take is that the USA has the extra load of expense in business paying health fund premiums.

To be fair, the U.S. is footing the bill for the world and the world is taking advantage of marginal profit to get healthcare cheap. There are several reasons that Australia doesn't pay as much for healthcare, but we can't ignore the impact of healthcare advances that were developed for profit in the U.S. market making their way to other countries for a lower cost.

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catkinZ8a

Welcome, 'Chase'!

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catkinZ8a

Welcome, 'QueenMargo LOL'!

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Ann

I agree about healthcare advances and the U.S.. The U.S. foots the bill (for other countries) for a lot more than healthcare advances. For example, Canada does not have anything in the way of a missile defense system. Hmmm, I wonder who they would depend on? Anyone want to take a guess?

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Carro

I'm guessing Canada and other countries have been living under our auspices, Ann.

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Ann

Back to M4A for a moment. After hearing how very many Americans want something like M4A, Warren will not win the nomination based on her support of M4A. She may win the nomination, but definitely not because of M4A. But, she sure might lose the nomination based on her support of M4A. Then, let's assume she does win the nomination. Dems are terrified she'll lose the general election because of ------ M4A.

Too many Americans do not want M4A!!!!!!

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Wants to Grow

We also have a population of 95,473,765 who are not in the labor force. How do we get them to pay their share?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

For example, Canada does not have anything in the way of a missile defense system.

Canada is smarter, with a better foreign policy, plus doesn't have a military-industrial-intelligence complex to support.

I bet Canada would not have no-bid contracts for defense systems.

Whistleblower exposes $7 billion no-bid Defense Department contract

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/halliburton-whistleblower-on-exposing-7-billion-no-bid-defense-contract-2019-06-30/

KBR - who would have suspected anything wrong ?

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vedabeeps

The right needs to get over the “their share” nonsense and look at the benefits of a healthy population.

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Chi

"We also have a population of 95,473,765 who are not in the labor force. How do we get them to pay their share?"

A large chunk of that number is retired people who have already paid their share most of their lives.

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margaritadina

''

Ann

Rob,
I think millenials have a lot more than healthcare on their minds. The
idea (misconception IMO) of free "stuff" is very appealing to them.

''

They were not told that they will have very little cash left in their pockets because they will be paying for the stuff they don't need and will never use. - taxes will have to up to at least 50%. And there still be the elite and peasants - there is not such a thing as equality. It doesn't exist.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“A large chunk of that number is retired people who have already paid their share most of their lives.”

And children who are not yet in the labour force and need to be healthy, confident, and well educated to ensure the future stability of the nation.

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Chi

"They were not told that they will have very little cash left in their pockets because they will be paying for the stuff they don't need and will never use."

Like what? Everyone needs healthcare at some point.

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vedabeeps

"They were not told that they will have very little cash left in their pockets because they will be paying for the stuff they don't need and will never use."


Like those of us who will never have children paying for schools with our property taxes? We already do that- gladly- because we understand that we all benefit from an educated society.

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Chi

I also gladly pay for fire and police services even though I've never needed them, luckily.

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Wants to Grow

Hi Chi, Okay, then lets reduce the number of the labor participation by 54,066,545 retirees. This leaves 41,407,206. This amount of non participants in the US labor force exceeds the entire population of Canada.

How do we get them to pay their share?

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Wants to Grow

Please note, infrastructure services, such as schools, fire and police are paid through local government, not federal government.

It appears many of you wish these services were nationalized.

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Chi

"How do we get them to pay their share?"

Well, a big chunk of those people are disabled. Should we go back to the days when disabled people who couldn't support themselves are just left to die?

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vedabeeps


"How do we get them to pay their share?"


We educate and train them so they can get jobs. We make sure they have healthcare so they are healthy enough to work. We pay living wages and give them options for child care so they can afford to join the workforce. We invest in the future of America by investing in Americans.

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Wants to Grow

Hi vedabeeps, It appears we are already spending $300 billion per year in jobs training programs. How much more should we spend?

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-apprenticeships-job-training_b_594ad64ce4b0312cfb613523

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bry911

"Please note, infrastructure services, such as schools, fire and police are paid through local government, not federal government."

LOL...

So it's not public ownership of production if it is not the federal government?

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Wants to Grow

Hi bry, I don't consider local social services to be socialism. Socialism takes place on a national level. Paying for local infrastructure is still voluntary. If you don't like the amount you are required to pay, you still have the liberty to relocate to a less expensive area. That choice is not available with national socialism.

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Chi

What do you consider socialism then? Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“If you don't like the amount you are required to pay, you still have the liberty to relocate to a less expensive area. That choice is not available with national socialism.

Why not? Is the wall holding you in?

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Wants to Grow

Hi Chi, Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security are absolutely socialist programs. Please note how they are unsustainable and about to go bankrupt.

That's what always happens with socialism, eventually you run out of other people's money.

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elvis

Chi

"We also have a population of 95,473,765 who are not in the labor force. How do we get them to pay their share?"

A large chunk of that number is retired people who have already paid their share most of their lives.

Right, chi. So they are not among the number that chase posted ^^^:

Chase

Which simply means you have that many more people to spread the cost over.

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Chi

So you're saying the US is a socialist country already, then? Or does adding healthcare for everyone make us socialist? What about requiring people to pay their fair share of taxes? Is that socialist?

If you're really so against "socialism" you could refuse Medicare and Social Security for yourself.

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Chi

"Right, chi. So they are not among the number that chase posted ^^^:"

Pretty sure Canada also has retired and disabled people so it's still a relative comparison.

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catspat(aka)

This leaves 41,407,206. This amount of non participants in the US labor force exceeds the entire population of Canada.

How do we get them to pay their share?


Tell those stay-at-home moms, "early retirees", and people taking care of disabled family members to stop slacking and get a job!




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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Please note, infrastructure services, such as schools, fire and police are paid through local government, not federal government.

Then why was Trump trying -- unsuccessfully, thanks to a court ruling -- to withhold federal monies from law enforcement in California because of sanctuary laws?

Also the threat of withholding federal aid from California disaster areas.

Federal monies also flow to the states for education.


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Lidia

Catspat... you’re being facetious right?

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catspat(aka)

Yes, Lidia, of course! It truly galls me the extent to which unpaid labor of extreme importance, which would not get done otherwise, is totally discounted by self-appointed conservative scolds, who seem to think that people who don't work for wages must be parasites on society. Just last evening I watched a story on the local news about a small crew of 60 to 80 year olds who have been running a critical food bank in the SF area East Bay, entirely on donations, each of them working 6 full days a week without pay. Gee, why aren't they in the workforce? From where I stand, it is hedge fund managers and some of Wall Street's other minions who are the parasites on society, given that their mode of making money basically requires fleecing hard-earned money from those who actually work.

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cait1

I think it's barbaric that healthcare is not seen as a basic human right in our country.

The United States of America's founding principles do not support made-up/man-made concepts.

Our founding principles are based upon natural rights, those that you are born with that exist because you are. They are independent rights pertaining to a person that cannot be usurped. If you are born with the ability to speak, then no one can remove your ability to say what you want. Yes, you can yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater, but if people get injured in the stampede, 'you' are responsible for paying for the damage 'you' caused.

'Natural rights' is freedom because 'you' choose.

The magnanimous, high-minded, rational love freedom.

'Human rights' is a man-made concept that is 'dependent'. The concept of 'human rights' was initiated to force everyone to rely on 'authority' for all their needs/wants and that authority regulates everything a person can and cannot say or do. Others depend on 'you' to give them what they want and the authority makes sure 'you' do so under the promise of penalties and incarceration.

'Human rights' is slavery because 'you' are forced.

Authoritarians, tyrants, despots and the small-minded love force.

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catkinZ8a

Try not to laugh.

___________________________

Socialism has always been a dirty word in the United States. With some notable exceptions from the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the socialist movement in the US has always been relatively weak — that is until now.

Ironically, the election of Donald Trump may have made the US Left stronger than it has been in decades. After the election, membership in the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)tripled, making it one of the largest socialist organizations in modern US political history. The same has been true for other socialist groups as well. It seems as if, for the first time in a century, socialism is having a moment in the US.

And behind this socialist wave are overwhelmingly millennials, who have been behind much of the massive increase in membership in socialist groups. Studies have shown that the majority of millennials reject capitalism and identify more with the working-class than any other generation.

Right-wingers and liberals use this as evidence that socialism is only for naive young people. It ties into the common neoliberal attitude that neoliberalism itself is inevitable. But this is a vast oversimplification.

The reason us millennials are drawn to socialism is not merely because we are idealistic. It's because our generation has grown up in a world which made us realize the central lie at the heart of capitalism. We were told that if we worked hard and went to school, we would be successful. Many of us did that, only to be saddled with debt and only able to work low-wage jobs. A study last year found that millennials were by far the job market's biggestlosers.

And while we continued to work just to survive, wealth became increasingly concentrated on the top. The US is now one of the most unequal countries in the world, with the top one person taking in about 20 percent of the wealth. Despite the "American Dream," class mobility in the US is almost non-existent. And if you aren't rich, data has shown that politiciansdo not care at all what you think.

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Newsletter

The US has also been at war for most of our lives. Despite the fact that you are much more likely to die from your furniture than from terrorists, millennials have seen the dog whistle of "terrorism" justify the shredding of civil liberties that we were told apparently made America great.

Ultimately, millennials have realized that this is nothing new. This country, built on stolen indigenous land on the backs of African slaves, has only ever truly worked for the white elite. We realize that America was never great.

The Democrats will not save us either. They discuss wanting to change the oppressive structures in this country, while being invested in their success. They talk about representing the common people as they take money from corporate lobbyists who profit off the suffering of workers both here and overseas.

Socialism, despite its association with Soviet gulags and firing squads, is ultimately about giving power back to the people. Instead of having a system where we work tirelessly just to survive as the rich rake in billions, socialism a system that works for everyone.

That is what we millennials are trying to achieve.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/why-millennials-are-socialists

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Chi

"Our founding principles are based upon natural rights, those that you are born with that exist because you are. They are independent rights pertaining to a person that cannot be usurped...Natural rights' is freedom because 'you' choose."

Hmm, wonder how the slaves of some of our founding fathers felt about that. What were their natural rights that couldn't be usurped?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Lidia, please refer to the terms of service. Your entire last post directed at me violates them.

ETA: this comment is made in response to a comment that is no longer visible.

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catkinZ8a

Yeah! And the ones who can’t make the leap will just fall into the abyss.

No worries though, as the bodies pile up it will be easier for everyone else—they can just walk across on the corpses of their kin.

Of course no one knows how many corpses it will take to eventually bridge that gap but no worries—the good jumpers will survive and that’s really all that matters, right?


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Lidia, I truly do strive to be respectful in all my interactions here.

If I directed something to you that you consider “calling out” please do point it out—I looked back through our interactions and I can’t see anything other than conversational questions and answers.

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Lidia

Catspat,,,I understand! Please know that those who aren’t liberals are among the employed who take care of others. For example,i stayed in a horrific work environment, as a state employee, so I could pay for my moms retirement home (she’s legally Blind and very ill. There’s no way she’d receive the care and live as long as she has if she was in state housing. I recent,y lost my job because some millennial loving man wanted me out and some useless self promoting 30 something firstly woman wanted my pathetic salary. Little did she know that her 2 years of experience and bitching got her a salary over my 20+years of loyalty. She assumed I made what I should’ve been getting but didn’t. She did everything to out me and put my boss against me. When she found out what my salary was , she quit. That’s your future America, these people. You want them, take them...this city loving former democrat girl is going to hide into the mountains and embrace her republican spouse until the craziness disappears.

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queenmargo

Has the fake QueenMargo left the building?

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Lidia

Well ms Lindsey, you have a great evening. My bad or whatever the kids say these days.

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Lidia

Hey chi. Didn’t say I was personally attacked. This is a social forum with I believe fall under the rights and freedoms amendments of the USA. Don’t like my speech, ignore it and move on. Welcome to America.

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Chi

"Hey chi. Didn’t say I was personally attacked. This is a social forum with I believe fall under the rights and freedoms amendments of the USA. Don’t like my speech, ignore it and move on. Welcome to America."

Well, Lidia, while you do have freedom of speech in America, you still agree to Houzz's rules when you post on this forum. And one of their rules is no personal attacks. Many people have been banned for doing so.

It's funny that you are celebrating freedom of speech for your opinions yet told Lindsey to be silent.

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catspat(aka)

Yes, you can yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater, but if people get injured in the stampede, 'you' are responsible for paying for the damage 'you' caused.

Some damage cannot be "fixed", no matter how much money is paid: loss of life, constant pain that cannot be alleviated....what is money, or any other penalty, in that case?

Also, does this mean if you have a bunch of money, you can do anything you want? Because it is your "natural" right and you can pay for the damage? But, if you don't have money to pay for the damage, well, tough, you have to keep your mouth shut?

I, like chi, want to know, too, what the natural right of the slaves were -- and where they went?

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Lidia

Catkinz8a...you’re not the only generation that has faced that struggle. If you look at the graduates of university over the last 40 years, yours is the least impacted by the current economic situation. Yeh, it totally sucks, it’s super tough...millions of us before you have experienced it as well. We wished we could’ve made it easier for you but at the time we were struggling ourselves to survive. We’d love nothing more than to see you succeed beyond us as you’re our little brothers or sisters or nieces or nephews. We’ve been forced to choose a path that not only allows us to support out aging parents but also our children and if that route is right or left, we are doing it.

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blfenton

I actually want to clarify what Lidia said in this statement "So you left the US and didn’t commit to your beliefs to become a committed citizen in the country you live. Wow. Time for you to be silent unless you have a compelling reason any of us should consider your comments valuable." Lidia

So for all those who have immigrated to the US and are not yet, or perhaps never will become, citizens of the US, are they to keep their mouths shut permanently and never speak out or have an opinion? Because that's what is sounds like you're saying and unless I'm mistaken, the US constitution applies to immigrants and that includes Freedom of Speech.

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elvis

Slavery is terrible, anywhere. No excuse exists, none offered.

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Lidia

Elvis. So true!

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Chi

"Woah...chill. Chi, want me banned, then request me banned"

What? I do not want you banned. I was sharing that information because it looks like you are an active member with an established account and I wouldn't want to see you lose it. I mean that sincerely. It has happened here, many times. You'll notice people here are very careful how they phrase things, even when disagreeing with someone.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I, like chi, want to know, too, what the natural right of the slaves were -- and where they went?


The same question from me, plus a question about the equal rights of women as well.

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HamiltonGardener

So, has anyone figured out why millennials like socialism?

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queenmargo

They THINK it is *free stuff*.

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Lidia

Blfenton. Yeah, that’s what I personally believe. If you don’t commit to be a citizen of the country you live in, it’s constitution and its beliefs, then your comments are worth your level of commitment. My parents and their siblings left their homeland to support the USA not only with their words but their lives. They immigrated here, became citizens and fought for the freedom of all US citizens regardless of color, gender, wealth, hierarchy...which was all counter to their multi-generational experience. So when I’m adamant about freedom and rights it’s because of their sacrifices to offer a better world for their kids...the dreamers that were just gen x’rs without social media.

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Kathy

No one believes things are free. That is total bunk. Money can be redirected and reapportioned according to different priorities.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

queenmargo

just now

They THINK it is *free stuff*.

———

No, queenmargo, we don’t.

We know precisely how it is paid for, we know its benefit and we know the cost of the lack of it.

(this is not a slam on boomers but the people I know who love free stuff the most are 55+. “Just sayin...” as the kids these day say.)

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Lidia

Btw...ageism directed to those 40 and over is illegal.

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queenmargo

My millennial tried to explain it to me one day while I felt hostage in the car, lol. I was mortified what was coming out of his mouth. He was basically telling me that since people like us buy all the products from the rich guys like Amazon, etc. that we should share in their wealth and get paid. That they got rich off us. So, somehow people will be compensated by the rich and then there is more free time to enjoy arts and crafts. I may have some of this skewed because I was zoning out and felt a bit of nausea coming on with each word. To think we PAID for his education, SMH... what goes on in those universities??????

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queenmargo

No, queenmargo, we don’t.

Miss lindsey- are you a millennial?

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queenmargo


Kathy

No one believes things are free. That is total bunk. Money can be redirected and reapportioned according to different priorities.

Kathy- redirected and reapportioned by who? Who decides what is a priority?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I sure am a millennial queenmargo. I’ll turn 39 in February—almost safe from ageism!

SMH I’ll only be 38. You know you’re old when you have to do the math :-D

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HamiltonGardener

No worries. The only millennials who are after free stuff are the ones still tied to moms apron strings. Once the bank of mom and dad dries up, they will learn to be independent adults.

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patriciae_gw(07)

I was thinking about this very point this morning in reference. Self evident rights? To whom. Apparently not the founders since they forgot to include a big chunk of the population-women, slaves, children and poor people since a sizable chunk of the founders did not think you got to have rights if you weren't a property owner. So how "natural" are these rights? So natural that in big chunks of the world most people don't have any rights? Does this sound like some sort of fantasy? We have the rights our culture supports. We need a good culture,

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Chi

Millenials are in their mid to late 30's now. There are probably several here, myself included.

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Lidia

The worst of millennials are those over 30. So not a fan.

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queenmargo

Chi- my son is 29. He was born in 1990. Is he not a millennial?

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Chi

I meant at the higher end. The birth year range is 1981-1996. I think a lot of people believe millenials are younger than they are.

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bry911

This is a social forum with I believe fall under the rights and freedoms amendments of the USA. Don’t like my speech, ignore it and move on. Welcome to America.

/sigh...

The Constitution of the United States of America is largely just like any other Constitution, it sets out the form of government, the powers of government, and the limits of government. Neither this forum nor its representatives signed the Constitution. If you mistakenly believed that Houzz was owned by the government, it isn't. The "rights and freedoms amendments of the USA" simply don't exist here, there are certain protections for suspect classes but otherwise, it is their business, so Houzz can limit speech in any way they see fit.

-------

If you don’t commit to be a citizen of the country you live in, it’s constitution and its beliefs, then your comments are worth your level of commitment.

I have left the U.S. many times and I retained my citizenship, I retained my rights as a citizen under that Constitution that you purport to value. If you don't like my being a citizen while spending years out of this country then I suggest you recommit to that Constitution you want others to commit to.

When I lived in the Middle East, as a U.S. citizen, was I supposed to abandon the U.S. and commit myself to being a fine upstanding citizen of the country I lived in? I really don't want to be a citizen of that country, especially since the U.S. didn't seem to mind my tax dollars.


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I’ve also seen ’82-’92 given as the age range.

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HamiltonGardener

Miss Lindsay,


You’re all rotten little whippersnappers.

And spoiled.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Lol

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queenmargo

OH bry- big deal- how about all of us Trump supporters who get called RACIST, uneducated, classless, etc. all day long by the left?

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

This thread has gone off the Track. Sticking labels on people. The dragon woman and I have produced two citizens aged 40 and 43. They have been to University and are fine! Better educated than their Mom and Dad who left school aged 15.


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queenmargo

Lidia is entitled to her opinion of a millennial.

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queenmargo

I have my opinions of millennials. I have one, I love him, but I do shake my head at times lol llol.

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Chi

Hey QM, at least your son is safe for another year before he becomes "the worst!" It's not so bad on this side though.

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Lidia

Oh...it’s clear that the USA is one of the last fabulous and awe inspiring places in which fe]Redon of speech is embraced. Embrace it while you can before the socialists take over.

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queenmargo

Chi- how is he safe for another year?

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Chi

Freedom of speech has never meant freedom from consequences of speech.

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Chi

Sorry queenmargo, I was just joking about the statement that millenials over 30 are the worst kind.

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Lidia

Queen Margo...I have embraced and supported those of the millennial age to the point of deity. But when a nasty millennial interferes...I feel it’s my duty to call them out. They can’t tarnish lol those awesome millennials who are amazing.

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HamiltonGardener

But seriously... there is a bit of truth to that. At risk of sounding like my grandmother, we have a lot higher number of young employees coming in who expect big salaries right out of school and perks that people used to have to work for.


Not to mention they treat work like s social club and get mad at the employer and clients when they are expected to hit deadlines. We had some say their professors used to let them push out deadlines, they can’t figure out why clients won’t let them.


I’ve had one tell me on several occasions that their mom said they should be allowed to do various things.


These are people in their twenties and early thirties


We give them a small window of opportunity to correct their behaviour and attitude but eventually just turf them. It’s not up to the employers to teach them to be adults.

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queenmargo

Chi- are you now saying that millennials under the age of 30 are the worst kind?

LOL- I am getting confused;))

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HamiltonGardener

Lidia,

You wear your flag a bit like a blanket in a Snuggie commercial.


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Chi

Lol sorry, no I was saying that since millenials over 30 are "the worst" according to a post on here, since he's 29 he's safe for another year. Just a dumb joke making fun of myself, don't worry about it.

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queenmargo

Lidia- not sure who you mean by this:

But when a nasty millennial interferes...I feel it’s my duty to call them out.

I know you had some interaction with misslindsey, so, I would like to say that she really has shown herself to be very respectful in her comments. I hope you give her a second chance for some communication.

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Lidia

Hamilton gardener, is that a personal attack?! LOL?! The flag is sacred. Would you wear it as a snuggle blanket?

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HamiltonGardener

My sister-in-law had an older husky and one day brought home a Shih Tsu puppy. The husky was old, but patient with the over energetic little newcomer. There were times, however...one day the puppy was just way too wired, annoying the husky until the husky finally brought her paw up, and WHAM, right down on the puppy. Pinned the puppy to the floor for a good 30 seconds. When she lifted her paw, the puppy went across the kitchen, much calmer, and stayed to her side of the room.


Years later, the old husky had passed on and the Shih Tsu was now the old dog. Aaaand my sister-in-law brings home a Yorkie puppy. Same scenario. Little Yorkie puppy too energetic for the old dog and annoying the carp out of her. Older Shih Tsu looks up at us like, “Was I really this annoying?”


I’m just waiting until the millennials start having to put up with Gen Z.

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Chi

I think it's a time-honored tradition that each generation thinks the next ones are way more spoiled and entitled than they ever were. :)

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HamiltonGardener

Chi,

Eh, yes, except each successive generation really IS more spoiled than the last.

But that’s why parents work so hard, so their kids don’t have to work as hard.


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patriciae_gw(07)

People have been writing that for well over a millennium. Young people today are...…..

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Chi

Eh, yes, except each successive generation really IS more spoiled than the last.

In some ways, definitely. But I also think other things are getting more difficult, like starting out financially as a young adult. Many areas with the good jobs are very expensive.

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HamiltonGardener

One millennial observation of Gen Z I overheard...


How hypocritical that they order Ubereats to deliver every meal, but blame us (meaning the millennials at the lunch table) for single use plastics and climate change.


That was an actual conversation at my office amongst the millennials.

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HamiltonGardener

Lidia,

Your mistake might be in the assumption (or at least the implication) that your family is the ONLY one in that position.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I honestly have no idea what I wrote that was so disrespectful.

I’m open to being told how I hurt you Lidia.

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Lidia

Thankfully each generation is more spoiled than the last... it’s been the effin goal for generations! But the prior generation may at times feel a little hurt when the next generation feels the prior generations are lame.

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queenmargo

Lidia- LOL- not many here would call me an ambassador, but thanks, I just like to call things as I see them. I get lambasted daily for being a Trump supporter. I let it roll off my back. Well, I just laugh and that gets on the nerves of many lol lol

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queenmargo

But the prior generation may at times feel a little hurt when the next generation feels the prior generations are lame.

Well, there is a good thought.

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HamiltonGardener

Lidia,

They think the prior generation is lame (ok, boomer).

But they still can’t figure out how to get to an address across town without GPS directing them turn-by-turn (ok, millennial)


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Chi

I'm also mystified what on earth Lindsey said that was so nasty or disrespectful. I've never heard her say anything mean about anyone.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Gosh, this “OK boomer” thing...now that is lame.

But I’ve only really heard it the past two days, in the media. I’ve never seen it online until today or heard anyone say it in real life except tonight, and my kid said it as a tongue in cheek joke about her friend.

Where in the world did it come from?

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Lidia

Hamilton gardener. Nope. I don’t feel that way at all. My sadness reflects that I feel the unappreciation of those who have chosen to love and support America has become ubiquitous. I humbly understanf my situation and that of my parents is greatly misunderstood and unappreciated. I dont want any acknowledgement, I’ve done nothing but our immigrants who suffered greatly to support the US and to be dismissed IMHO, not acceptable.

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queenmargo

But Hamilton, in all fairness, the millennials were brought up with all this technology.

Put a rotary phone in front of a millennial and ask them to call someone. I am not sure they would get how to use it right away.

I now use turn by turn over a map.

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cattyles

Miss Lindsey has never been disrespectful. Lydia, we’ve been advised to discuss the topic, not other posters.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

The last dozen or so posts support my idea the USA Citizens are more Class Driven than the British.

Where did you go to school?

What do you do for a living?

How much money do you have?

Where do you live?

And now which age group do you belong to?


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blfenton

Lidia - Judging by your response to my question you only support free speech under your own very narrow terms. Fortunately the Constitution defines it and applies it more broadly.

And here, just as you have, all who post are free to discuss and to have an opinion on all topics posted without being shut down by another poster. Free speech and all, you know.

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HamiltonGardener

QM,

The millennials might.

Gen Z definitely can’t. Without a working cell phone, Gen Z can’t even exist as a functional human being.

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blfenton

"ok, boomer"????????????? Have I missed something. I'm a boomer, I need to be enlightened, although, being a boomer, I don't really care what you all think. ;)

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queenmargo

I really need to be enlightened on this "OK, boomer" thing too,

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HamiltonGardener

Arthur, it’s everywhere, not just USA.


Closer to you, even a NZ politician replied “ok boomer” in parliament.

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HamiltonGardener

Guys,


Ok, boomer is a sarcastic dismissive retort to someone in the boomer or older age.


Although some Gen Z can’t tell the difference between a 30-something and a 50-something so “ok boomer” can be successfully used against millennials too.

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queenmargo

OK- well, I will ready if I get that retort, LOL. Thanks for the heads up Hamilton;)

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HamiltonGardener

QM,

You are most likely to get it if lecturing them on being more responsible or on how things used to be when you were their age.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I was driving my daughter around about half an hour ago and there was a radio program discussing this very issue (inter generational conflict, not the original topic of the thread). I’ll try to find a link, it was interesting. (Or maybe I just thought so because this thread was so fresh in my mind?)

found it: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/debate-do-baby-boomers-owe-millennials-an-apology-1.5351727 (I really enjoy the Ideas program)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

I think OK Boomer is probably the verbal equivalent of an eyeroll.

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queenmargo

When my son was young and he was out with his friends trying to earn money by sweeping up the leaves in driveways, he wanted to make a flyer to put in mailboxes. I told him he should name his business "The Baby Broomers".

This conversation just brought this good memory;)


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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

“I’m just waiting until the millennials start having to put up with Gen Z.”

lol wait no longer HamiltonGardener; they are our kids!!

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Lidia

You assume all gen z’s has kids....

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Lidia

But mostly...I so thankful groveraxle comments thoughtfully on thinks that matter on houz

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queenmargo

I haven't been on the Design Dilemmas for almost 3 years now. I have had some fun with Groveraxle;)) She posts great art along with some great advice. She used to give me a hard time over me posting my Leg Lamp;)

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Groveraxle is truly the best of the best, seemingly in every way.

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blfenton

My kids are millenials and they call me out on what they call the 'rolly-eye thing' but I haven't done it in years.

I'll have to have it ready in case they ever say Ok boomer.

ETA- I went off and did a quick research of the term and it seems to be a "real" thing with articles and memes. For some reason, the dog of choice for some of the memes is a shiba inu.

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Chi

I would never say "ok boomer" myself but it doesn't surprise me that it developed. People have been mocking and making negative assumptions about millenials for years now and it gets annoying.

My uncle is a boomer who received free college, free Tricare for life from age 18 on and bought his house for less than $50k. He loves complaining about millennials and their laziness and entitlement. Oh and their "socialism" despite him personally benefitting tremendously from our tax dollars. I guess it's ok for him but not anyone else!

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"But seriously... there is a bit of truth to that. At risk of sounding like my grandmother, we have a lot higher number of young employees coming in who expect big salaries right out of school and perks that people used to have to work for."

Lol, I suspect it has been that way in the past too. In many ways, we were just as vacuous when we were young, but we just didn't notice or don't remember it in ourselves.

There is a different phenomenon occurring that might explain some of this, and that is that people are delaying families until later in life and, of course, having fewer kids.

That's smart in some ways for obvious reasons, but there are some not-so-obvious disadvantages to that. With fewer children, parents are much more likely to overprotect their children and over-orchestrate the children's lives.

With young parents, children are exposed to some benign neglect because their parents are still more like children themselves. With less obsessive supervision, children of young parents have to learn how to negotiate some of the rough terrain on their own, and will acquire negotiation skills because their parents aren't hovering over them and supervising every interaction. They are more likely to get honest, useful feedback.

It's good for kids to get some negative feedback, especially from peers, but also from adults. You can't learn where the limits are and how to adapt to differing situations if everyone is telling you that you're special and perfect all of the time.

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HamiltonGardener

Lion heart,

Another possible repercussion of delaying having a family may be the increase in both autism and infertility in our society.


Its a more difficult in your thirties to get pregnant than your twenties, and fertility treatments are becoming necessary as the average age of mothers has risen.


I know a paediatrician who said the rise in autism is also related to the higher average age of mothers. We talked about how they used to advise women to finish having their families by age 35 because of the rise in risk of Downs Syndrome. But she said that’s not the only increase in children’s problems they see as you get older mothers, and autism is definitely one of them.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

I had some suspicions about the age-autism thing. It's an interesting hypothesis.

For women, those eggs are precious and there's a clock attached to them. Eggs don't age well. :-)

You start hearing tick-tocks in your thirties. It's now or never. Something like 90% of a woman's ovarian eggs are gone at age 30, and older eggs are more likely to have chromosomal abnormalities.

I had my first at age 22 and the 2nd at age 25. A bit later, I had 2 kids in my early 30s. I was definitely a different parent in my 20s than I was in my 30s. Also, the 2 "waves" are definitely different from each other.

Probably a lot of that has to do with the personality traits they happened to inherit, a very different parenting style, and I wouldn't discount the difference between younger and older eggs either. Those 30+-year-old eggs might start showing their age as their viability declines.

It's tough because women really need to groom themselves for the future at the exact time when they are at peak physiological fitness for having children (and also have prime eggs, lol).

If you survey them, most young women report that they want to have children, but most know that they have to delay that to get their lives in order for the future. It's a trade-off. The risks are higher on several fronts when you're an older mom.

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jama7(6)

I think the reason might be the simplest; I'm going with Occams Razor again.

Doctors are pushing the diagnosis too early...at 2 yrs now. Of course serious autism would be apparent at that age but now they've been including late talkers of which 1 in 10 children are! That 10% give or take is about the average rate of autism now in many areas. I'm going to chalk a fair bit of this up to maybe the very common, incredibly overly protective, helicopter parenting style nowadays and the medical profession which is enabling it. I am not insenstive to kids with issues but shyness, late talking, lack of eye contact etc exist in very normal children but with time can and usually do diminish. Many kids are shy, introverted, prefer their own company...is this being diagnosed now as being on the spectrum? I know an awful lot of kids who were like that. I was like that! Many grew out of it, some still are introverts but it is not a disorder. Autism diagnosis takes place usually at 8 yrs old. Most kids don't grow out of these traits until older than that...I was mid teens. It seems perhaps the med profession might be defining and narrowing what they consider "normal" and anyone who falls outside of this little bitty circle is "on the spectrum" or possibly has some other sort of disorder.

I have a friend who's worked in the special needs dept in large school systems for 30 yrs at all levels from k-grade 12; she's been in a HS for some time now. She told us that FIFTY % of those HS kids are now disagnosed with some level of "special need" which allows the child some advantages in school over other children. Parents are literally PUSHING for their kids to be disagnosed with some such problem because of the decreased pressure on them, more assistance, lower standards, longer test times etc. She said the notes/reports from MD's are laughable. She knows a lot of these kids, if not all and her guess is closer to 10-20% have issues worth reporting. She's seen this literally triple in about 10=15 yrs and it's not just with autism but with all sorts of disorders..her fav being the "stress disorders" that seem to be getting popular. You mean like when we got nervous before a test??? Yeah.

We can't ignore the problem of over protective parenting which we have seen increasing with each generation... those parents are pushing for an early diagnosis since many seem to worry themselves to death over little Johnny being less than a gifted, perfect child. NO, not ALL but many. Add to that a medical profession that seems to accomodate them and we have an outbreak of all disorders.

I also find it hard to believe we don't seem to consider what goes into our bodies every day and environment we're exposed to. We literally poison ourselves with the toxins, pesticides, chemicals we eat and live with. Very few people cook healthy, balanced meals nowadays...take out, fast food, processed home foods etc have become the norm in many homes. We know they cause cancer and a host of diseases....why wouldn't they impact a child in the womb? Toxins are found in breast milk....this isn't considered?? Diet and lifestyle have changed dramatically over the last 3 decades right along with the sharp rise in diagnosis. Coincidence? I don't think so.

the-ongoing-rise-in-autism-what-in-the-world-is-going

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catkinZ8a

Leave the young Trump supporters out!


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haydayhayday

30 years ago the Berlin Wall came down. The Millennials were running around in diapers. They have no idea what's going on.

The only thing separating the two sides is a Wall. On one side, prosperity and freedom. On the other side misery and oppression.

Celebrations today at the Wall:



"If you seek peace. If you seek prosperity...."


Hay



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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie)doineedtoaddanamehere(8a)

Yep, but we learned the history hay. That’s why we don’t want any more walls.

oh by the way, the Ukraine famine was entirely human caused. It was not a result of socialism. It was created by psychopathic totalitarianism as a means of war. Some argue that totalitarianism is the only conclusion to socialism but I see no evidence that that must be true.

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blfenton

I don't know if there is enough data to support this but the older you are when having children the more financial resources you tend to have to spend on the little tykes. We had our kids at 34 and 36 and ( fortunately, my eggs were still pretty darn healthy) certainly had more money and, more to the point, more disposable income at that age than in our 20's. Were they spoiled, no, I don't think so, but did they have advantages, certainly. Do they expect the same type of lifestyle at some point, yes they do but they are also working pretty darn hard to attain it.

Jama - you raise some good points regarding parents looking for diagnosis for their children to give them a leg up, the broadening definition of Autism along with Aspergers, the poisons in our environment, and the overprotective parenting.

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blfenton

Just to say. I don't know how many conversations are now going on here, but they have all been really interesting. Thanks

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Ukrainians were resisting communism so they were genocided and replaced.

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elvis

Another possible repercussion of delaying having a family may be the increase in both autism

Agree. One SIL had her children when she was 35, 38, and 41. The last is autistic, big time. The other two have had serious attention disorders since early on.

In addition, studies show a correlation (not necessarily a causation) between exposure to DDT by mothers many years previous. Apparently, residuals chemicals remain in the mothers' bodies. SIL was definitely exposed to DDT before it was banned.

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elvis

But they still can’t figure out how to get to an address across town without GPS directing them turn-by-turn (ok, millennial)

ROFL. I had a young woman come into the office looking for another (related) office. It was across town, which in my case was a couple of miles away. I explained it while she stared at her phone, making little finger movements and muttering to herself. I asked her if she was clear and she said "so it's 28 miles away". No, I patiently explained, drawing a little map on paper for her. She pointed to her phone map, which showed another office with a similar name to that of her goal, and she said the name of the town, which was indeed about 28 miles away. I assured her that my map was the way to go, and she left. I'm not sure which choice she made, but that was a big head shaker for me.

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HamiltonGardener

Yeah, like I said, millennials generally know this stuff but Gen Z is a different animal.


In spite of what the perception is, older millennials have started purchasing their houses and started their lives and families, and it’s their turn to get criticized by the generation below them. Gen Z will be their annoying little puppy.

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blfenton

And when their traffic app says that where they're going is 22 minutes away, that's how much time they give themselves. Someone forgot to teach them that going someplace also requires the time to put on your shoes and coat and lock up, walk to and start your car, leave your garage, drive to where ever, find and pay for parking, and then walk to the actual address, take the elevator if necessary. And hope that your traffic app is correct.

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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

"I have a friend who's worked in the special needs dept in large school systems for 30 yrs at all levels from k-grade 12; she's been in a HS for some time now. She told us that FIFTY % of those HS kids are now disagnosed with some level of "special need" which allows the child some advantages in school over other children. "

There are financial advantages that are provided to a school district for special needs students, but it also helps to mitigate the stringent requirements that school districts are required to meet. If they have a good number of special needs students, both the student and the school get some breathing room on the performance metrics.

It gives the schools wiggle room and some extra funds.

There is a built in incentive for schools to get borderline students into a special needs category. It's a temptation that's hard to turn down.

The increase in autism/spectrum diagnoses is probably due to greater awareness, but, as HG indicated, it's also true that older women are at an increased risk to have children who are diagnosed with autism. Both of those things can be true simultaneously.

Maybe older parents are more pushy about finding out if something is wrong with a child, but the rates are higher in the over-30 group. And 40 - forget about it - the rates go up significantly compared to the under-30 group. It's not just a blip.

While the correlation to the mother's age is pretty strong, making it a factor, it's still not enough to explain all of the increases in spectrum diagnoses.

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jama7(6)

While the correlation to the mother's age is pretty strong, making it a factor, it's still not enough to explain all of the increases in spectrum diagnoses."

As I mentioned in my earlier post, diet, lifestyle, environment, pesticides .....why wouldn't everything impact autism and disorders in general? I believe they do in the same way so many factors cause cancer. Honestly...how can poisons, chemicals NOT do something to our systems? There probably isn't a single, dominating cause. It's everything we're exposed to that creates the perfect storm. As for age, a 40 yr old woman has had double the exposure to all the bad crap vs a 20 yr old woman's....maybe that doesn't help.

Of course in order to start attacking these disorders and diseases requires a complete overhaul of our food, our lifestyles, our medical care, our ag practices.....nothing overwhelming about that! Step 1 could be govt stepping in to stop corporations from poisoning us.


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elvis

It looks like we've pretty much exhausted this topic, so I'll just end with the summary paragraph from the OP:

Add up a lost generation of woke and broke college graduates, waves of impoverished immigrants without much knowledge of American economic traditions, wealthy advocates of boutique socialism and asleep-at-the-wheel Republicans, and it becomes clear why historically destructive socialism is suddenly seen as cool. Regrettably, sometimes the naive and disaffected must relearn that their pie-in-the sky socialist medicine is far worse than the perceived malady of inequality. And unfortunately, when socialists gain power, they don't destroy just themselves. They usually take everyone else down with them as well.

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A tired Auckland, New Zealand, townhouse becomes a beautiful and functional home for an interior stylist and her global guests
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Bold Color Room of the Day: Connecting With Style in a Former Social-Club Lodge
Bold red walls and elegant touches create a distinctive living room that packs a visual punch
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