OT - intentional power outage
jacqueline9CA
4 years ago
Featured Answer
Comments (15)
roseseek
4 years agoRelated Discussions
Power surge
Comments (42)The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at: http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the major organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US). And also: http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/practiceguides/surgesfnl.pdf - "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001 Responding to a post from Westom: > The protector was so grossly undersized as to disconnect from a surge ASAP. Westom believes all plug-in protectors are "grossly undersized". Francois Martzloff was the US-NIST surge guru with many published papers. One paper looked at the energy absorbed in a MOV on branch circuits of 10m and longer and surges on power service wires up to the maximum that has any reasonable probability of occurring. The maximum was a surprisingly small 35 joules. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. This is well within the ratings of plug-in protectors. With high ratings and connected correctly it is unlikely a plug-in protector will fail. There are a couple reasons the energy is so low. One is that (for US panels) there is arc-over from hot busbars to the enclosure at about 6,000V. After the arc is established it is hundreds of volts. Since the enclosure is connected to the earthing electrodes, that dumps most of the surge energy to earth (even with no service panel protector). The second reason is that a surge is a very short event. Thus the currents are relatively high frequencies. The inductance of the wire is much more important than the resistance. The impedance of the branch circuit wires greatly limit the current (and thus energy) that can reach a plug-in protector. (Neither service panel or plug-in protectors protect by absorbing energy.) >View manufacturer spec numbers on any plug-in protector. Everyone here is challenged to post >those spec numbers. Nobody does. Nonsense. Many people have provided specs for Westom. He always ignores them and repeats the lie that "nobody does". Apparently Westom knows that plug-in protectors can not possibly work, so specs can not possibly exist. > A properly sized protector does wear out ... long after you are gone. Another reason > why 'whole house' protectors start at 50,000 amps. Service panel protectors are a good idea. But from the NIST guide: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless." The NIST surge guide suggests that most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and phone or cable wires. Service panel protectors do not prevent that high voltage from developing. If using plug-in protectors all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport suppressors are described in both guides. >If a 'whole house' protector is properly earthed, then any rumored surge leaking into a > building is made more than irrelevant by protection already inside every appliance. > Quoting many of the industry�s gurus. One says an adjacent protector can even > make appliance damage easier. From Dr Martzloff's 1994 IEEE paper. His first >conclusion about plug-in (point of connection) protectors: At the time of the paper (1994) multiport surge suppressors were just a concept or very new. (Multiport protectors have additional ports where phone or cable wires run through them.) The *point* of the paper was that multiport protectors were effective: "Mitigation of the threat can take many forms. One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge protector]." Martzloff also wrote the NIST surge guide which also says plug-in suppressors are effective: They are "the easiest solution". And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor. Westom lies about what Martzloff says about plug-in protectors. Martzloff has also written: "Whole house protection consists of a protective device at the service entrance complemented by [plug-in surge suppressors] for sensitive [electronic equipment] within the house." (It is the same as what others have said in this thread.) Martzloff also talks about "induced transients" in the NIST surge guide (which Westom says are not a problem). >A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Not explained - how do you protect flying airplanes. Do they drag an earthing chain? Is it '"less than 10 feet" long? This is a completely relevant question. Protection of airplanes is somewhat like protection with plug-in protectors. Westom appears to have a religious belief that earthing must be directly involved in protection. Thus a plug-in protector that is not well earthed can not possibly work. Unfortunately for Westom, the IEEE surge guide explains (starting pdf page 40) that plug-in protectors work primarily by limiting the voltage from all wires (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. They don't work by earthing surges. For real science read the NIST and IEEE surge guides. Both are excellent sources of information. Both say plug-in protectors are effective. Westom has no sources that agree with him that plug-in protectors do NOT work. ============================================== It is likely that whatever happened to the OP, was not a surge. It is unlikely that either a service panel or plug-in protector would provide protection. A MOV that can handle a very large surge from lightning with a duration of around 200 microseconds will be rapidly destroyed by temporary overvoltage long enough to trip a breaker. There are 2 possible exceptions. A UPS may transfer to battery backup and disconnect from the line. And in the US, since 1998, UL has required disconnects for failing MOVs. The IEEE guide explains that the protected equipment can be connected across the incoming power, or it can be connected across the MOVs. In the latter case, the protected equipment may be protected as the MOVs are disconnected (it may not be effective with sustained overvoltage). Except for Westom, good information in this thread....See More500,000 CA customers losing power today
Comments (50)Only a completely "off the grid" setup, as some kooks like to do but which is impractical because of nighttime darkness, would be unaffected by changes in the distribution system. Why do you refer to people who live off the grid "kooks" ? Besides name calling, that sounds really close minded to me especially coming from the guy who has told KT forums members to "open their minds" in past threads. I have a neighbor who has been off the grid for the 25 years that I have known him through a combination of solar and water power. He's far from a kook and lives very comfortably while generating all his own power. Unlike all the people who are upset about their power being turned off during this red flag fire warning, he won't be affected at all. Be advised that I'm not going to get into it with you; I just was curious why you felt the need to call people who choose to live off the grid "kooks". And, calling "crickets" on Lukki Irish is uncalled for. She may very well be busy with other things and hasn't yet seen your posts. Not everyone spends all day on the internet. I haven't been on since this morning because I've been busy with other things....See MoreOT: In Italy sometimes it snows
Comments (26)So pleasant to see this conversation continuing. I second Rosefolly's wishes for adequate water for us all. German author Heinrich Boell wrote a story titled 'Christmas Every Day'. It's been some decades since I read it, but as I recall, the idea didn't work out well; still, our Christmas lights will be up through this Sunday! It has been so gray! The sun is then forecast to come out, thank goodness, and I HOPE it melts most of the snow, which is still present in abundance. Good luck getting out to your land, bart. I'm hopeful, with the current precipitation, that water supplies won't be a problem this summer. Sheila, hello! Paula, our chief problem is getting the car out of our parking space and onto the pavement a few yards away, as the pavement is plowed but the gravel-and-dirt (mud) parking area isn't. We had a major digging out session several days ago, since when we've been able to exit and re-enter. Paved roads are no problem: they're promptly plowed after snow and are salted. (My brother was surprised about the salting, as it damages vehicles, but, in fact, I've never seen salt damage on cars here, and there are decades-old vehicles in circulation. A mystery.) P.S. Italy is still in strict quarantine until January 15. This means we're not supposed to leave our property except for necessary errands like grocery shopping. So that's another reason to want the snow gone from the garden, so I can fool around there instead. However, like many Italians we're suffering from quarantine fatigue. On Epiphany DD and I went for a walk, clean forgetting that we were supposed to stay home (I remembered when we were a couple of miles from the car). There were a good many other people out walking or cycling too. It was breaking the rules, not a good thing, but at least the chance of catching the infection in the open air was very low. Everybody kept a good distance away from anyone who wasn't in their group....See MoreRAIN (OT, sort of) - they claim the storms have paused
Comments (3)I'm glad you were able to stay high and dry Jackie. What a piece of luck that your home is part of the old grid, and how interesting that you know the history of it all. The scenes from many places are pretty horrible, and even parts of San Diego flooded (briefly I imagine). The rain in your area has been pretty unrelenting and that's been too much of a good thing for many. Even here it came down pretty steadily for a while, but when you're not personally adversely affected the overriding thought is always about how beneficial the rain is overall for the greater good of people and animals. Before the rains came we were told there would be water restrictions for everyone but perhaps now that won't happen. It really depends on how the remainder of the winter/spring season pans out. Fingers crossed!...See Morejerijen
4 years agojacqueline9CA
4 years agojacqueline9CA
4 years agostillanntn6b
4 years agoac91z6
4 years agosultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish)
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agomjkjrobinson
4 years agojerijen
4 years agoRosefolly
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agomad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
4 years agojacqueline9CA
4 years agoac91z6
4 years agoStephanie, 9b inland SoCal
4 years ago
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jacqueline9CAOriginal Author