Barr-Durham Investigation Is Now Officially A Criminal Investigation

Carro

The DOJ has enough evidence to start criminally investigating people,


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/24/us/politics/john-durham-criminal-investigation.html


WASHINGTON — For more than two years, President Trump has repeatedly attacked the Russia investigation, portraying it as a hoax and illegal even months after the special counsel closed it. Now, Mr. Trump’s own Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into how it all began.

Justice Department officials have shifted an administrative review of the Russia investigation closely overseen by Attorney General William P. Barr to a criminal inquiry, according to two people familiar with the matter. The move gives the prosecutor running it, John H. Durham, the power to subpoena for witness testimony and documents, to impanel a grand jury and to file criminal charges.


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chase_gw

Pant, pant, pant........

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Iris GW

Spoiler alert: it's someone on TRUMP's team!

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Iris GW

P.S. did you realize that was a NYT article? Trump says you're not supposed to read that anymore.

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elvis

Whatever it is, let it see the light of day.

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Delilah66

“criminally investigating people”

They’re investigating criminally? Sounds about right for the right wing.

Chase, you dog, you!

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catkinZ8a

Hey Johnny Brennan--you awake?

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Carro


catkinZ8a

Hey Johnny Brennan--you awake?

The real question-- does someone at CNN have a "gut feeling" that he should take a film crew to Brennan's home at 5am and hide in the bushes?

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chase_gw

I wouldn't be jumping to any conclusions as to who they may be looking at criminally.....if indeed they are.

Not that it will stop those given to conspiracy theories, fed by their "info" from FOX......who I guess has a direct line to Barr.....oh yes but those Dems and their leaks....

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maddie260

The fact is Russia did interfere in 2016 to help dt. This has been confirmed by Mueller and a republican Senate. Why is this a criminal act?

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mrskjun(9)

I love listening to the left after hearing Russia, Russia, Russia for three years. Now there's nothing to see here lol.

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catkinZ8a

They never thought she would lose.

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catkinZ8a

And yet so many are utterly out of the loop.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

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Stan Areted

mrskjun:

I love listening to the left after hearing Russia, Russia, Russia for three years. Now there's nothing to see here lol.



I love listening to the left accuse the right of "conspiracy theories."

That's ROTF ridiculous.

Just like "Trump will never see the inside of the Oval Office."

"Mark my words...." yadayadayadayadayada.

We're SO over it the lies and hysteria and declarations.

Nothingburgers as Hillary would say, but they're still being served.

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Joaniepoanie

Trumpers: The NYT is a rag.....I love the NYT....The NYT is fake news.....I love the NYT....

Hoot of the century: Trump’s Justice Dept, headed by a Trump loyalist, investigates Dems maintaining Russia probe was a hoax, while people are in jail as a result of the probe.

Saw Brennan interviewed last night.....he was as cool as a cucumber, not shaking in his boots as Trumpers claim.

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queenmargo

Just like "Trump will never see the inside of the Oval Office."

LOL- my personal favorite')

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Kathy

Why is Barr so bent on letting Putin off the hook? They all will make billions if they get those sanctions lifted. Trump is speeding up the mission in case he is impeached.

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Carro

Saw Brennan interviewed last night.....he was as cool as a cucumber, not shaking in his boots as Trumpers claim.

Hmm...Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Trump and Barr appear to be high on their own supply of conspiracy hooey.

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soupgirl53

Good. Bring it on. This is the only way to end the Deep State nonsense.

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Carro

NBC is reporting "The prosecutor conducting the review, Connecticut U.S. Attorney John Durham, has expressed his intent to interview a number of current and former intelligence officials involved in examining Russia's effort to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, including former CIA Director John Brennan and former director of national intelligence James Clapper, Brennan told NBC News.

Durham has also requested to talk to CIA analysts involved in the intelligence assessment of Russia's activities, prompting some of them to hire lawyers, according to three former CIA officials familiar with the matter. And there is tension between the CIA and the Justice Department over what classified documents Durham can examine, two people familiar with the matter said."

and in the same article:

"Barr also said in the interview that the purpose of the Durham review is to make sure there was not inappropriate surveillance of the Trump campaign.

"I had a lot of questions about what was going on," he said. "Some of the facts that I've learned don't hang together with the official explanations of what happened."

AG Barr expands mysterious review into origin of Russia investigation

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Delilah66

Will Durham have a better finish than he did in 2010?

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catkinZ8a

Brennan lied on national TV about when he first saw the Steele dossier, what a dolt.

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Joaniepoanie

carro


Hmm...Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit.

*****

Resort to inane name calling when ya got nothin else.

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Carro

Joaniepoanie

carro


Hmm...Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit.

*****

Resort to inane name calling when ya got nothin else.

What name would that be? Oh, and Joanie, I think this thread is the most substantive of the week. But you go ahead and curse the darkness!

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)


maddie260

42 minutes ago

The fact is Russia did interfere in 2016 to help dt. This has been confirmed by Mueller and a republican Senate. Why is this a criminal act?

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mrskjun(9)

40 minutes ago


I love listening to the left after hearing Russia, Russia, Russia for three years. Now there's nothing to see here lol.

———

Another delightful juxtaposition.

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cait1

@ maddie

The fact is Russia did interfere in 2016 to help dt.

No, what Russia and most likely other countries did was try to sow discord.

Exactly the same as what Hillary is doing by calling Tulsi and Jill Russian assets.


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queenmargo

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Continue to be super impressed by the intellectually rich arguments offered by our ultra right pals. So persuasive!

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Trump and Barr appear to be high on their own supply of conspiracy hooey.


Carol what is intellectually rich in your comments?


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soupgirl53

Politically motivated investigation. If done according to DOJ rules, there will be no leaks and since it is hard to prove a negative, there will be lots of interviews with lots of people who are experts when it comes to investigations. These people will have files and records documenting what leads they had and how they followed up on those leads. Good luck!

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Kathy

Russia hacked almost every states voter data. It wasn’t only sowing discord. It had people set up protests. It provided illegal money through NRA. There is a lot more outlined by Mueller. That is what Trump wants discredited so he can lift the sanctions. That’s why he wants to blame Ukraine.

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catkinZ8a

They never verified the dossier before they went to the FISA Court, folks.

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catkinZ8a

Joaniepoanie

Resort to inane name calling when ya got nothin else.

________________

Hoot!

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Joaniepoanie




carro


Hmm...Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit.

*****

Resort to inane name calling when ya got nothin else.

What name would that be? Oh, and Joanie, I think this thread is the most substantive of the week. But you go ahead and curse the darkness!

********

So saying “Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit“ is not name calling? Alrighty then. I’ll save this for when the right gets in a twist whe we say something negative about Trump.

Substantive thread? Are you kidding? Barr in charge of any investigation in this administration is a total joke.

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elvis

Joaniepoanie

carro


Hmm...Brennan always looks like a dog passing a peach pit.

*****

Resort to inane name calling when ya got nothin else.

Silly Carro. The man is a flaming hunk.


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elvis

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Continue to be super impressed by the intellectually rich arguments offered by our ultra right pals. So persuasive!

Oh, my sides!

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Annie Deighnaugh

Would someone on the right please explain to me how this conspiracy theory that barr is pushing even makes sense?

Somehow hillary and obama were working with russia to get them to hack the dnc to release dnc emails and turn the dnc strategic campaign plan over to trump just so they could make up a trump/russia connection and blame it all on trump? Is that how it's supposed to go?


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maddie260

Here is just one report that backs up the Republican Senate report that found what Mueller did; there was Russian interference to help dt:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/10/08/bipartisan-senate-report-calls-sweeping-effort-prevent-russian-interference-election/

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Watch this barr/durham expansion be about uncovering more team trump felons of which Mueller accidently over looked, now that would be a hoot.

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Kathy

It won’t stop Trump’s impeachment. Trump has committed crimes in plain sight on the WH lawn.

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catkinZ8a

LOL Annie. What's the conspiracy theory that Barr's pushing?

__________________________

Annie Deighnaugh

Would someone on the right please explain to me how this conspiracy theory that barr is pushing even makes sense?

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Annie Deighnaugh

OK, so apparently the trumplicans don't understand the theory either...as long as you put hillary and/or obama in a story line and paint trump as a victim, they go for it.

Amazing how the 'deep state' got trump to say, "russia if you're listening...", and how they managed to work with russia to get them to use social media with all this pro-trump anti-hillary messaging, and how they got trump & co to meet with russians over 100 times, and how they got the russians to donate millions to the nra, and how they got lev and igor to funnel millions from that russian mobster firtash into the rnc and the trump campaign. I gotta hand it to the 'deep state'. And then how they managed to keep the whole russian investigation into trump's campaign under wraps until after the election, while comey was broadcasting more false info about hillary's emails just before election day.

They really know how to support hillary and the dems!! This 'deep state' is beyond brilliant!

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chase_gw

It is being reported that the investigation has transitioned into a criminal investigation so it has the right to issue subpoenas etc.

Up until now it hasn't had that power. Durham was relying on voluntary testimony and documents but it receiving push back on some peoples part who are refusing to testify.

Sounds like a process step.

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Annie Deighnaugh

A very dangerous process step where the power of the DoJ is being used to pursue political ends and a completely unfounded conspiracy theory to benefit the president (and russia) instead of being used to uphold the Constitution, the rule of law and the best interests of the American people.

Now people on the left have claimed the durham is a straight arrow, but we've seen straight arrows get bent before, so I'll wait and see if there is any credible evidence beyond a 'hunch' or a political coercion to even open this as a criminal investigation.

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Kathy

Since it is a criminal investigation now the witnesses will lawyer up and also will not be as forthright to testify. Maybe that was the whole purpose?

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Stan Areted

A very dangerous process step where the power of the DoJ is being used to pursue political ends

Hardly.

A very necessary process to expose the power of the DOJ to unlawfully attack a President with fake dossiers, the FBI being the worst of part of the DOJ that did that. CIA, DOJ main office, all involved.

Adulterous lovers and players, Page and Peter. Only the beginning of the nefarious plan to take down a president.

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catkinZ8a

Dems are so desperate they literally want to investigate the investigator investigating the origins of their investigation.

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Stan Areted

The dems are drowning in a quagmire of their own making.


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catkinZ8a

One of the 4 AM talking points:

"A very dangerous process step where the power of the DoJ is being used to pursue political ends"

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soupgirl53

You can bet on that. If this investigation yields no criminal indictments, that will be a pretty good indication there was no criminal conduct on the part of the investigators and that will blow up the Deep State conspiracy theories. A criminal investigation that is publically announced by the FBI will have a hard time quietly shutting down. Barr is going to wish he had the luxury of quiet shut down when he finally realizes he cannot prove a negative.












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Joaniepoanie

stan

Adulterous lovers and players, Page and Peter. Only the beginning of the nefarious plan to take down a president.

******

Hoot! Yeah——-because these two wielded the power to take Trump down...get real.


Has it ever occurred to Trumpers that if there really was a Deep State, Trump would have been gone a long time ago.

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Carro

If Trump weren't Trump, he'd have been gone a long time ago.

But...he's Trump.

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catkinZ8a

FOX news source: Bolton has retained counsel, lol.

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queenmargo

If Trump weren't Trump, he'd have been gone a long time ago.

But...he's Trump.

Exactly Carro, and that is what infuriates them.

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Kathy


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catkinZ8a

What did Obama know and when did he know it?

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jama7(6)

It's too much....the "deep state"..... 2 lovers texting that they didn't like the Potus. Oh MY!!

Let's confiscate EVERYBODY'S phones and see what their biases are! Then we can hire and fire according to the private comments they make. Scary stuff this is.

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queenmargo

Pleeeze jama- you know it was much more than that.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

catkinZ8a

17 minutes ago

What did Obama know and when did he know it?

———

He knew Russia was interfering in American elections by the fall of 2016.

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queenmargo

He knew Russia was interfering in American elections by the fall of 2016.

and what did Obama do about it?

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cattyles

It has been posted in detail many times what Obama did about it. Your denial of it and repeating this falsehood is one of a long list of false statements that are posted over and over. It’s an indication of trumpers not acknowledging facts. It goes hand in hand with believing and repeating conspiracy theories and RW propaganda.

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jama7(6)

Has it ever occurred to Trumpers that if there really was a Deep State, Trump would have been gone a long time ago.

Ah...but if there were NOT a Deep State how would they explain all these "things"? Deep State must be everywhere, all the time from basement pizza parlors to the inner sanctum of the FBI. It really is the most all encompassing, paranoia driven, explain-it-away tool they've got. Handy little thing; works in any situation!

But yes...if there WERE one, Trump would be gone....long gone. Damn. We need a Deep State.


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mrskjun(9)

What did Obama do about it? He informed Hillary. Ain't that rich.

Amazing that Wm. Barr who was considered to be a man with impeccable credentials, a patriot, an upstanding guy, becomes Trumps AG and suddenly he has no credibility whatsoever. Accused of being Trumps "wingman" as Eric Holder claimed to be for Obama.

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Iris GW

Amazing that Wm. Barr who was considered to be a man with impeccable credentials, a patriot, an upstanding guy, becomes Trumps AG and suddenly he has no credibility whatsoever.

Thanks to his own behavior.

Why do conservatives seem to forget about personal responsibility when it's their own guy? Barr has only himself to blame for how he is being perceived.

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cattyles

Barr pilfered his honor and credibility by his actions.

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queenmargo

LOL- yeah, how dare he look into the left corruption... the nerve!

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Iris GW

No, margo, that wasn't it.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

queenmargo

20 minutes ago

He knew Russia was interfering in American elections by the fall of 2016.

and what did Obama do about it?

———

He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents.

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queenmargo

He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents.

Did Obama bring it to the American people? Were the media reporting this before the election?

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cattyles

He did a lot more than that and would have done even more if not for Moscow Mitch.

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cattyles

Look it up, Margo. People have typed it out here numerous times. It’s wasted effort.

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queenmargo

Funny- I don't recall Obama giving a PSA about Russians invading our elections??

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queenmargo

Obama was too busy with his own meddling perhaps.

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Carro

margo, Obama assured us Russia wasn't a factor.

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cattyles

False.

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Kathy

Trump cozied up to Russia after he was warned. He will pay the price and so will America. Putin is a master manipulator and Trump was an easy target.

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Carro

A "flexible" target?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

queenmargo

28 minutes ago

He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents.

Did Obama bring it to the American people? Were the media reporting this before the election?

———

Any movement in that direction was blocked by Mitch McConnell.

It was unchartered territory, Obama sought advice from a political leader from the opposing party presumably to mitigate any accusations of bias in the decision, and together they decided on a course of action.

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queenmargo

Well, that territory sure got uncharted after the election lol lol....

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queenmargo

Any movement in that direction was blocked by Mitch McConnell.

and together they decided on a course of action

Sounds like Obama played possum by choice. IF I would even buy that.

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Delilah66

“people on the left have claimed the durham is a straight arrow,”

Do you think his failure to get convictions on CIA torture tactics was because there was insufficient evidence or...? Just asking not accusing.

“ But...he's Trump.”


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HU9999

Amazing that Wm. Barr who was considered to be a man with impeccable credentials, a patriot, an upstanding guy, becomes Trumps AG and suddenly he has no credibility whatsoever.

Wrong. It wasn't sudden. I'm not sure how you missed everything that happened inbetween. Or did you not miss it, and just leave it out so that your story supports your beliefs?

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Kathy

Why is Barr interested in exonerating Russia?

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Ann

"The dems are drowning in a quagmire of their own making."

I completely agree!!!!!

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Ann

"If this investigation yields no criminal indictments, that will be a pretty good indication there was no criminal conduct on the part of the investigators and that will blow up the Deep State conspiracy theories."

Sounds reasonable.

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Ann

"He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents."

Oh wow! That's impressive! Way to lead with strength, Barack!

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

queenmargo

1 hour ago

Any movement in that direction was blocked by Mitch McConnell.

and together they decided on a course of action

Sounds like Obama played possum by choice. IF I would even buy that.

———

Sounds like the facts got through and the only recourse left is to attack Obama.

hint: I am not an Obama devotee. Criticism of him doesn’t bother me. And it doesn’t distract me from Trump.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

Ann

1 minute ago

"He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents."

Oh wow! That's impressive! Way to lead with strength, Barack!

———

Don't forget the retaliatory sanctions against Russia and the expelling of the Russian delegates Ann.

What is the state of those sanctions now?

What further measures have been employed to thwart further interference?

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Ann

"I am not an Obama devotee. Criticism of him doesn’t bother me. And it doesn’t distract me from Trump."

Good to know, good to know:)))))

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Andie

Bill Barr's just itching to go to prison.

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cattyles

I hope his itch gets scratched. After trump, he’s the worst.

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jama7(6)


Ann

"He caused all the candidates and their election committees to be warned about the interference and asked them to alert the authorities if they were contacted by Russian agents."

Oh wow! That's impressive! Way to lead with strength, Barack!

What would you have had him do Ann...assassinate Putin? That would be STRONG MAN stuff right? He DID phone Putin who obviously denied it. At least he called him on it and did impose the sanctions, etc. McConnell and he made the best decision they could. There was NO good solution here.

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Ann

"Bill Barr's just itching to go to prison."

Give it your best shot, Dems.

Or, as Chris Wallace has been saying in every interview in the last 24 hours - how about we get all the truth on both sides of the political divide and see what we learn. Sounds reasonable to me. While we're at it, let's let as much sunshine as possible on every investigation so Americans can see for themselves. Lets have public hearings and unredacted reports whenever possible! Let's get to the bottom of all of it, hold everyone, who should be, accountable, and then let's move on with the business of the country and let government do what they are elected to do.

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jama7(6)

What he didn't do was embarrass our country by kissing Putins butt, and take Putin's word over 37 of own agencies. Talk about LEADING WITH STRENGTH! We are so screwed since he has done NOTHING to prevent it again. Quite the opposite in fact as we all very well know.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“Lets have public hearings and unredacted reports whenever possible! Let's get to the bottom of all of it, hold everyone, who should be, accountable, and then let's move on with the business of the country and let government do what they are elected to do.”

Amen. Common ground!

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Kathy

What has Trump done to stop Putin? He wants all sanctions lifted. That’s why he has ordered Barr to clear Russia.

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jama7(6)

Speaking of Russia, the Twitter bots are incredible...many more it appears than 2016. I looked at Trump's newest followers the other day. Out of 30, 26 appeared to be bots. They cover all the right subjects...religion, guns, abortion etc...whatever gets people worked up. They love to retweet Trump memes as the savior...you know THE MIRACLE stuff. I noticed quite an increased # of bots with Hispanic names....getting more advanced and specific this time trying to pull Latinos over.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

What did Obama do about it? He informed Hillary.

. . . and also informed Trump, the official GOP candidate.

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Andie

Ann

"Bill Barr's just itching to go to prison."

Give it your best shot, Dems.


Interesting that you didn't question why I said that.

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Ann

Lol, why would I question what you said? I don't care why you reached your opinion or your reasoning behind your comment.

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Andie

Like I said, interesting.

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cattyles

Be careful. “Give it your best shot” is what you all said about trump.

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Ann

"Be careful. “Give it your best shot” is what you said about trump."

I did? It's certainly possible but where is the quote?

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cattyles

I edited it to “you all”. You’re right, I don’t know exactly who said it.

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Ann

Andie, if you think your opinions or why you formed them are particularly interesting, you are certainly welcome to share! I'm not aware of any rules prohibiting you from describing the formation of your opinions about Barr. But, I've no idea which posters will or won't be interested in reading them or discussing them. Maybe you should try it and find out.

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Andie

Games.

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adoptedbyhounds

Obama’s “retaliatory actions” against Russia took place on December 29, 2016, after Trump had trounced Hillary.

I do hope the American people will stay tuned. We all deserve to know why Obama and the FBI only thought of kicking those Russians out after Trump had been elected.


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Delilah66

Impeach Obama!

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queenmargo

Why did you flag my response? Because I pointed out you did not understand my comment? Why didn’t either one of you just ask what I meant?

I did NOT flag your response joaniepoanie. I DID ask you what you meant. I have NO idea where that conversation/comments went or by who. I didn't accuse you, so don't accuse me.

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queenmargo

Impeach Obama!

Impeach everyone!

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elvis

jama7(6)

What he didn't do was embarrass our country by kissing Putins butt, and take Putin's word over 37 of own agencies

"37". Which ones are you counting? Local police departments, school boards?

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

I must say that I've hoped the actionable tactics used by the left to smear and hobble Donald Trump would one day be brought into the open; so, I'm very glad to see the Justice Department FINALLY taking an interest in examining what went on. The bulk of what the left did before the '16 election has yet to be determined, as has what they've done since. With a wink and a nod to Machiavelli, the artifice and devilry employed before and after the election by the left to delegitimatize Donald Trump was a seed laid in rather fertile soil. It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see.

Al

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elvis

It's nice to see you, Al ;D

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Kathy

Weaponizing the DOJ to win an election and let Russia off the hook won’t save Trump.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,others)(8a)

“...artifice and devilry employed before and after the election by the left to delegitimatize Donald Trump...”

Starting in about 1958. Playing the really, really long game are they?

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elvis

Kathy

Weaponizing the DOJ to win an election and let Russia off the hook won’t save Trump.

Won't "save" him?


Like this? "I'll get you my pretty!"

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catkinZ8a

tapla(Mid-MI z-5b-6a)

I must say that I've hoped the actionable tactics used by the left to smear and hobble Donald Trump would one day be brought into the open; so, I'm very glad to see the Justice Department FINALLY taking an interest in examining what went on. The bulk of what the left did before the '16 election has yet to be determined, as has what they've done since. With a wink and a nod to Machiavelli, the artifice and devilry employed before and after the election by the left to delegitimatize Donald Trump was a seed laid in rather fertile soil. It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see.

Al

______________________

My Brutha.

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catkinZ8a

Last 24 hours:
- Durham’s probe goes criminal
- Brennan goes silent
- Clapper melts down on CNN
- We discover Lisa Page edited Gen. Flynn’s 302s
- McCabe drops his wrongful termination suit against DOJ


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catkinZ8a

LOL. Barack Obama is going to love this interview his former DIA James Clapper just gave to CNN about the Durham probe: It’s frankly disconcerting to be investigated for having done.... what we were told to do by president Obama.


https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/10/07/james-clapper-intelligence-community-russia-nr-vpx.cnn

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Ziemia(6a)

McCabe is apparently NOT dropping his wrongful termination suit. It is apparently his FOIA suit for documentation.

And that editing of Flynn testimony documents is a claim. Yet to be proven. Could have happened - don't yet know.

ETA


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catkinZ8a

Clapper's shaking in his boots.

Clapper is so confused because he's lost track of all him and his ilk's crimes.

It’s all going to see the light of day!

Steele was a Western Friendly not a Russian spy.

You know it.

We know it.

https://twitter.com/DGPurser/status/1187726918352809986/video/1

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Ziemia(6a)

Looking forward to the upcoming reports and testimony transcripts.

Usually Durham's work takes years. Maybe he will fast track this time.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yet again, I don't get how trumplicans live with the cognitive dissonance.

You can't have it both ways. You can't both blame obama for doing nothing about russian interference in the election *and* support barr's efforts to prove that russia did *not* interfere in the US elections.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how this whole story goes... that it was the dnc who worked with russia to set themselves up to tank hillary's election by releasing their own emails through wikileaks at times that are most beneficial to trump, like right after the access hollywood tape is released or right after trump says, "russia, if you're listening." Forget evidence of anything...even as a theory, it simply doesn't hang together.

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jama7(6)


elvis

jama7(6)

What he didn't do was embarrass our country by kissing Putins butt, and take Putin's word over 37 of own agencies

"37". Which ones are you counting? Local police departments, school boards

_____________________

Ooops... my finger's fault. 17 separate agencies, not 37.


92514592

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Stan Areted

tapla(Mid-MI z-5b-6a)

I must say that I've hoped the actionable tactics used by the left to smear and hobble Donald Trump would one day be brought into the open; so, I'm very glad to see the Justice Department FINALLY taking an interest in examining what went on. The bulk of what the left did before the '16 election has yet to be determined, as has what they've done since. With a wink and a nod to Machiavelli, the artifice and devilry employed before and after the election by the left to delegitimatize Donald Trump was a seed laid in rather fertile soil. It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see.

Al


I've missed your cogent, concise and eloquent articulation of a situation.

You nailed this one perfectly.

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Iris GW

If Obama did 'nothing' about Russian interference is it now acceptable that Trump do nothing? Just wondering how Trump's lack of effort is justified for 2020 election so that I have my talking points clear.

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Annie Deighnaugh

the artifice and devilry employed before and after the election by the left to delegitimatize Donald Trump was a seed laid in rather fertile soil.

All of this is very nice except it is based on the premise that trump is completely innocent and has done nothing to deserve the critiques, challenges, and investigations he's receiving. That is completely false. trump is up to his eyeballs in corruption and illegal activities and always has been. The difference is, now that he's president, his ability to spread corruption is bigger than ever before as he now has access to the entire public realm as well as private business interests; and as president, with barr's assistance, he may get away with it.

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jama7(6)

Yes, it's Barr that's making ALL the difference right now. Without that partnership, Trump would now be on the ropes....but then again, there's the corrupt, do nothing GOP congress. We saw what Barr was the moment he deliberately lied and misled in his summary of Mueller's report. VERY happy to see the unredacted report heading over to the Dems.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

VERY happy to see the unredacted report heading over to the Dems. ...... not surprising. I can see how critically important it's been that all reports and documents are appropriately Schiffted before being selectively leaked at the first opportunity.

Al

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queenmargo

Yes, it's Barr that's making ALL the difference right now.

Praise the lord;)

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Ann

"It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see."

I simply love this and oh how I agree!

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Iris GW

"It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see."

How funny that you quote this. Perfectly describes Trump.

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queenmargo


Iris GW

"It's beginning to look like what grows from the seed will be karma. I hope it carries with it a healthy dose of justice. We'll have to be patient and see."

How funny that you quote this. Perfectly describes Trump.

Yes Iris, I sure hope Trump gets a healthy dose of justice after what the left has put him through.

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Ann

Margo, my thought too. Praise the lord for Barr and his willingness to actually get to the bottom of the entire situation.

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Delilah66

“Yes Iris, I sure hope Trump gets a healthy dose of justice after what the left has put him through.”

Yes Iris, I sure hope Trump gets a healthy dose of justice after what the left is going to put him through.

Fixed it.

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Ann

"Yes Iris, I sure hope Trump gets a healthy dose of justice after what the left has put him through."

YES!!!!!! Me too.

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cattyles

I have a question for the trump supporter with no ulterior motives or gotcha. I’m honestly curious.

Do you think trump has done nothing wrong or do you think he did shady things but it doesn’t matter?

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Delilah66

Oooohhh! (hand raised) Pick me! Pick me!

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cattyles

Delilah, I pick you for the happy hour and fun conversation group. ;-)

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jama7(6)

tapla(Mid-MI z-5b-6a)

VERY happy to see the unredacted report heading over to the Dems. ...... not surprising. I can see how critically important it's been that all reports and documents are appropriately Schiffted before being selectively leaked at the first opportunity.

Al

So, it's cool with you that Barr, a man who should be above reproach, deliberately lied and misled in his summary of the Mueller report giving the appearance that Trump had NOT committed obstruction.

Do I have that right that you think that's OK?

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jama7(6)

And I suppose I"ll ask the question I asked right above of Ann and Margo too. Care to comment on what you think of Barr deliberately changing the meaning of Mueller's report to "clear" Trump? As you know, Mueller sent a letter to Barr regarding THAT move.

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queenmargo

Got leaves?

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adoptedbyhounds

Annie,

Barr’s effort is to understand how the FBIs counter intelligence operation against Donald Trump began.

Your claim that Barr is trying to prove Russia did not interfere in our election shows you have no idea what Barr is focused on. It is not in dispute that Russia is constantly looking for ways to spread influence and disinformation. Barr and Durham not wasting time trying to disprove what everyone already understands.

Prepare yourself to learn about Team Trump “contacts with Russians” that were prevarranged and coordinated by US government assets. Barr and Durham have the resources to track down how these arrangements were planned and what they were designed to do. We already know that these “meetings” were extremely helpful to a familiar Democrat talking point. The one about all those “suspicious contacts with Russians.” Turns out the “help” provided by US government assets in putting Trump volunteers/advisors/former campaign workers in contact with Russians had a purpose: To paint Trump and those around him as Russian assets.

Prepare yourself for revelations about how officials in other countries were used, willingly or unwittingly, to further the Trump Russia hoax.

This hoax has tentacles reaching around the globe.



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Iris GW

Barr’s effort is to understand how the FBIs counter intelligence operation against Donald Trump began.

Was there a counter intelligence operation against Donald Trump? Has that been proven?

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Ann

I'll answer that. I'm not aware of anything Trump has done that is even on the same planet as impeachable. I think what he has done is just about on par with every other president in terms of sometimes choosing the perfect action or words, or could have chosen better, or not his best speech or sentence (why did he say that). For example, I'm sure Obama would have preferred America not hear him say he'd have more flexibility after the election - but should he have been impeached for it - I don't think so (but I suppose if we heard all the private conversations with Russia that followed, we may feel like he should have been). Bush and Clinton were the same. But, with Trump, it's been a hunt for a crumb to try to destroy him since before he was sworn in. It's crazy IMO. One investigation after another is started with no valid basis, and then a basis is searched for or a concerted effort to plant a trap to then obtain a basis is undertaken.

I think we're just about to learn of our very own agencies and previous administration doing unheard of things to sabotage/set up/target (I could list possibilities for a whole page) a candidate and sitting president. I think what we'll learn will show us a level not even close to the "why did he say that" moments all presidents have. I think we're about to learn of blatant, criminal, amazing information. But, we'll have to wait and see.

Back to the question. I think Trump, all his predecessors, and all people sometimes do things that are "wrong". I certainly don't think Trump is the least bit exceptional in wrongdoing and underhanded and secret certainly isn't his "way". With Trump, you get what you see. His forthright honesty puts him in awkward situations daily, but finding nefarious, secret, underhanded, enormous plots with multiple threads regarding Trump, is proving to be a big challenge for the Dems. He doesn't operate like that, so they come up empty handed with big stuff and just a list of slap on the hand stuff they then try to dramatize. He's simply too forthcoming for those deep state plot executions.

But again, I think we just might learn of a huge deep state plot attempt/execution that will be an amazing revelation. We'll have to wait and see. Right at this minute, there are so many threatened lawsuits and so many fingers pointing so many directions, it's simply stunning. But, just as Mueller did, Barr and Durham will keep doing their jobs and they'll inform us of their findings when they are done.

ETA: This was to cattyles' question. It just took me forever to type it.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

I won't make a prediction re which side gets the worst savaging by their karma, but I will take the opportunity to observe the left's very flexible moral code will continue to be a crippling issue for the party and the country. A society cannot long endure when large fractions of its members can rationalize any act they might choose to commit. Embracing moral relativism allows escape from responsibility, at least in the minds of those who individually or collectively refuse to practice any form of self-denial. Nothing good can grow from such a state of affairs.

Al

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cait1

@ Annie

Would someone on the right please explain to me how this conspiracy theory that barr is pushing even makes sense?

ROFL First explain how all the conspiracy theories you've pushed made any sense.

That you write this:

You can't both blame obama for doing nothing about russian interference
in the election *and* support barr's efforts to prove that russia did
*not* interfere in the US elections.

tells everyone you have no idea what really went on and what is now being done.

The Russian "interference" didn't change any votes, neither did the Chinese, Iranian, Israeli or Ukrainian interference, which I'm sure happened because every election they and others are on social media in disguise trying to persuade in some direction. They only picked on Russia because Russia was helping Assad stop the BO-et-al created ISIS. If you would step out of Shareblue controlled media for just a minute you might learn something new.

Barr is looking into the the BO admin's interference in the 2016 campaign and that is freaking the dems and Shareblue media out. Yup, Shareblue media was complicit in this attempted coup and they need to be held accountable.



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Annie Deighnaugh

cait, a) you still haven't expressed your theory of the case. You just pick pieces and parts. Please, you or someone else, put together an entire narrative that explains the situation, from start to finish. I'd like to see a story that at least includes the major players and actors and holds together in a logical fashion, without contradiction. So far I've not seen it.

b) The Russian "interference" didn't change any votes... you and so many others keep saying this, so let me ask you a question. Do you think advertising matters in an election? Do you think that the richer the war chest for a candidate, the better their odds of winning? Or do you think money plays no role in an election?

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Eat Well

I've said this before but excusing the sheer magnitude of Trump's lies and bullying and corruption and verbal blunders because previous presidents also made mistakes is like equating DUI manslaughter with rolling through a stop sign.

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cattyles

Tapla, I’m truly without words to convey my astonishment at the lack of recognition that your comment exactly describes trump and his supporters.

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jama7(6)

Still waiting for someone to answer my question about Barr misleading the public about Trump's obstruction in his summary letter.

Ann, I absolutely agree with you about Trump not being able to handle high level plots which is why I knew he was NOT guilty personally of the charge of collusion with Russia. But I agree for different reasons. It's not because of his "forthcoming honesty" (13, 500 lies and counting!) but because he can't keep his mouth shut when he should, has no ability to read people or situations, and has little to no understanding of the world, politics and their complexities. His narcissim would make it impossible for him to put the goals of a group ahead of saving his own skin. And he's stupid. About everything. So, no he is NOT capable of complex, nefarious plots...I absolutely agree with you. But he IS capable of bullying, threatening advisors, cabinet heads and world leaders with the power of the US behind him. That was his MO throughout his career. And that is what he did with Ukraine. Because he is ignorant of the limits of a POTUS's power, nor does he seem to care, he proves himself unfit time and time again. He is simply incapable of learning this job. IGNORANCE is never an excuse and that you know.

Proof of that couldn't have been more evident than with his comment about the constitution and its' "phony" clause. He's angry because the constitution prevents him from wielding unlimited power. He is unfit for a multitide of reasons but also because he is totally unable to make the leap from CEO to POTUS and doesn't understand why he can't run the country as he did his company. Mulvaney stepped in it when he said as much.


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Iris GW

Ann

I'll answer that. I'm not aware of anything Trump has done that is even on the same planet as impeachable

Wow.

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Kathy

That’s scary. What are the pubs being fed?

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jama7(6)

Now we're hearing KAC 's spin...."But his heart was in the right place"....or some such blather. LOL!! THIS is her defense for Trump in the Ukraine matter?

He's innocent because he is IGNORANT?? If there's any job on the planet that demands you know it's powers AND limits, it's POTUS.

Okay kids, all together now. ...1, 2, 3..."IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE."

He is unfit. Totally.


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Annie Deighnaugh

Iris, as far as I know, anything Mueller found that was counterintelligence, he turned over to the FBI, which, under barr, is probably doing nothing to investigate or follow up as barr sees his position as one of protecting the president, not the constitution. Also mueller never investigated trump's finances, so that too is still up in the air. There seem to be some legal cases slowly moving forward, but nothing concrete yet.

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cattyles

Jama7, I tried that question after the Mueller report. After I read the whole thing I thought, “welp, that’s the end of barr. He flat out lied about what the report said”. But by the time the report came out, it had been weeks since Barr’s dishonest summary and everyone had moved on. He knew exactly what he was doing and how important it was to get the disinformation out before anyone could read it for themselves.

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Delilah66

“Got leaves?”

Yep, looks like the pub party affiliates have either been smokin’ or dreamin’.

”I'm sure Obama would have preferred America not hear him say he'd have more flexibility after the election”

Impeach Obama.

”His forthright honesty”. That’s a joke, right. Oh, maybe a typo?

“His forthright dishonesty” Fixed it.

“the left's very flexible moral code will continue to be a crippling issue for the party and the country.”

Your opinion vs mine: The right’s very inflexible immoral code will continue to annihilate what the US has always done: lead/stand with the first world countries in all aspects of science, technology, and humanity.

“Mulvaney stepped in it when he said as much.”

jama, me thinks Mulvaney absolutely knew what he was doing.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yes Iris, I agree...nothing impeachable and *this* about a guy who's a record-setting liar:

His forthright honesty ...

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Every day is opposite day in GOP world, it seems...

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catkinZ8a

LOL, Annie.

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catkinZ8a

How would you describe Trump supporters here at HT then?

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Ziemia(6a)

Who are these "leftist progs" - and what defines them?

"The leftist progs and their MSM are in dire need of Depends this week!"

I am unaware of any group on the Dem side (or even centrists) that are worried about what's gonna be revealed this week.

Nefarious behavior needs to be addressed regardless of political leaning.

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HU9999

It's just projection, ziemia.

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Ziemia(6a)

And there's been much evidence of Trump's forthright dishonesty.

Plus there's his forthright admission of his admiration for leaders who limit the press and see democracy as dangerous.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

The gaslighting and tu quoque tactics are calculated to antagonize those folks that some on the political right see as their enemies - the nameless, faceless 'leftists' and 'Dimocrats'.

And I hope people are aware that FoxNews is no longer the only game in town when it comes to 'official' state television.

YouTube, thanks to its algorithms, now has a fantastic rabbithole of extreme rightist videos and personalities that are indoctrinating many unsuspecting people to the dark side.

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chase_gw

Whether his actions , particularly as it relates to the Ukraine, are impeachable or not still remains to be seen. However, I have no doubt no matter what they find his base will say it was no big deal and defend his behaviour.

They accept his behaviour because they have been convinced he is accomplishing something when in fact he isn't......he is a destroyer not a fixer but he has a brilliant way of controlling the minds of his base.

Nothing Barr can find justifies how Trump manages the country and foreign policy. He needs to take a page from Clinton's playbook and get about doing his job instead of managing his personal political reality show.

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queenmargo

Delilah66

“Got leaves?”

Yep, looks like the pub party affiliates have either been smokin’ or dreamin’.

Delilah- my 'got leaves' had nothing to do with smokin' or dreamin' so quit twisting my comments. If you don't know, ask, but don't fabricate.

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Delilah66

Hard to twist something with no defined basis.

There’s a plethora of fabricating from the pub party. So difficile to discern what’s right.

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elvis

Delilah66

Hard to twist something with no defined basis.

There’s a plethora of fabricating from the pub party. So difficile to discern what’s right.

???I thought that "difficile" was a toxin-producing bacterium which can infect the bowel, causing illness with diarrhea and fever, especially in people who have been treated with antibiotics.

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Eat Well

elvis

???I thought that "difficile" was a toxin-producing bacterium which can infect the bowel, causing illness with diarrhea and fever, especially in people who have been treated with antibiotics.

--------

Difficile is a French word meaning difficult or hard.

The bowel issue is Clostridioides difficile or C. difficile or C. diff.

https://www.dummies.com/education/internet-basics/how-to-perform-web-searches/

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Annie Deighnaugh

catkin, feel free to describe yourself as you wish. It is not in accordance with the rules to discuss posters ... only what they post.

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Kathy

Delilah, I was thinking the same about Mulvaney. He’s not dumb and he pulled it off pretty believable.

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Delilah66

“Eat Well, you are projecting again.”

Not at all.

Kathy, got to give him credit. It’s not easy masquerading in this administration.

”It is not in accordance with the rules to discuss posters ... only what they post”

Glad I left that one alone, Annie.

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Annie Deighnaugh

abh, I think I'm getting what you're saying now. It's not that the russians interfered, because they always do. It's that the dems used the russian interference to set up trump&co. A master sting operation, is that it?

The fact that the russians were *favoring* trump bigly...is that the part where the dems were coordinating with russia? Or is it just coincidental that the russians favored trump? Who was responsible for the dnc email leaks? Was that russia on its own?

But there's another piece to the story. trump specifically in his own phone call with zelensky was asking about ukraine hiding a crowdstrike server, which is part of a russian propaganda piece to blame ukraine for the interference and take the blame off of russia. Is that still part of the dnc plot? trump specifically asked zelensky to work with barr and giuliani on that. So how does that fit into your scenario?

The other piece of the story is, even if trump&co were set up by the dnc with the help of the fbi to tank him in the election, why did they never use that information? Why didn't they leak that trump was under investigation? Why didn't anyone like strzok or comey or anyone else come out and say it *before* the election? Why go through all that effort and not use it?

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Annie Deighnaugh

And of course, there's the other piece of the puzzle....if somehow the dnc used the russians to dangle red meat in front of trump, why did he bite and so often? If someone comes up to you with this great offer to rob a bank, do you say, "Yeah, I love it!" or do you turn around and call the cops saying, "This guy is planning on robbing a bank." And even if you say the former and do nothing, why then do you lie and obfuscate about the offer? Why, if it's revealed you had that conversation wouldn't you just say, "Yeah, he told me about it but I didn't do anything as I didn't believe him."

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lurker111

It's that the dems used the russian interference to set up trump&co. A master sting operation, is that it?

Proven fact. It was all the DNC. The games are over. We have the dirt. Fear the dirt.

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mrskjun(9)

I have no idea why the left wants to smear Barr. I would think every American would want the AG to investigate corruption in an election. And if Russia manipulated the voting in favor of Trump, why did Hillary, as corrupt and unlikeable as she is, win the popular vote?

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Iris GW

Who is smearing Barr just by pointing out the stuff he does to protect Trump? Just facts, ma'am.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I have no idea why the left wants to smear Barr. I would think every American would want the AG to investigate corruption in an election.

Because barr is not protecting the constitution, but the president. (See his month long lie about the contents of the mueller report and stonewalling its release, including all the back up material and grand jury testimony.)

Because a proper investigation seeks out the facts and follows the facts to a conclusion, but barr has his conclusion in hand: the DNC did it. Now he's traveling the world seeking evidence -- fabricated or not -- from whomever he can coerce (including trump withholding desperately needed military aid to Ukraine) -- if that helps him prove his case.

Because if barr really wanted to prevent corruption in an election, he'd be going after the heart of the problem: russian hacking into state election systems and propaganda campaigns on social media.

This is no different than the trumplican's take on trump. Start with the conclusion that trump is completely innocent of *any* wrongdoing and then build the conspiracy that merges in whatever useful facts come out....while ignoring or dismissing all the rest. (Or discrediting those providing the facts if the facts are too evident.) Of course all the facts won't fit because it's backwards and a lie, but it builds a case strong enough for believers, who are desperate to continue to believe, to hang their hats on.

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lurker111

why did Hillary, as corrupt and unlikable as she is, win the popular vote?

California's over vote.

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jama7(6)

What Annie said.

After Jeff Sessions, I think most of us were hopeful when Barr was appointed. That hope was destroyed the moment he became Trump's personal attorney and lied in his summary of the Mueller report making it appear that Mueller had cleared Trump of the obstruction charge. Quite the opposite. He's a brazen SOB.

I miss Sessions....everything is relative.

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lurker111

There is no obstruction. Barr did not lie. Mueller wasn't smart enough to know the law and Barr explained it all to him. We know the "Russia" hoax was all a scam. There is no obstruction of justice when justice isn't being sought.

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Carro

mrskjun, the Trump haterz conveniently forget how many in Obama's circle protected him, lied under oath, refused to answer questions under oath and were even held in contempt by Congress.

Lynch and Holder were each a disgrace.

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Iris GW

What does it say when Trump's people actually agree to testify under oath even when Trump told them not to? Could they be tired of the lies?

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Eat Well


lurker111

There is no obstruction. Barr did not lie. Mueller wasn't smart enough to know the law and Barr explained it all to him. We know the "Russia" hoax was all a scam. There is no obstruction of justice when justice isn't being sought.

lurker111

Who's Mueller? That guy who didn't read his own report?

-----------------------------

Oh boy, the no obstruction mantra again. On the bright side, we have made progress as the "Mueller said" part of the mantra has been abandoned. Baby steps!

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lurker111

Who's Mueller? That guy who didn't read his own report?

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Delilah66

<<<Interruption by the Word Police>>>

” haterz”

Why do people change the spelling of a word making it incorrect? I get using an abbrev or contrction to shorten a word, but using the wrong letter just seems useless. I care. Do u?

<<<Carry on>>>

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Ann

"Because a proper investigation seeks out the facts and follows the facts to a conclusion"

Yes, true. I think that's precisely what Durham is doing.

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Stan Areted

Durham was praised, until he started to find the truth.

Then attack his character, so predictable.

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Stan Areted

Lurker--don't forget Chicago's Dead Voters!

Bet they got Breaking the Glass Ceiling Headstones!

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Iris GW

Yes, true. I think that's precisely what Durham is doing.

But somehow that is not what Democrats are doing? LOL!

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chase_gw

I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Durham ( mind you I have heard it said he is anti intelligence agencies...no idea if it is true) or Horowitz but I very much doubt Barr's. He has 100% control of what is released and how it's revised and I have no confidence he won't release a " Trump pleasing" report.

I just hope that is the information is misrepresented Wray will have the courage to step forward.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Understand that durham works for barr who is closely managing his investigation, so even if durham were a straight shooter, he's being improperly influenced by a guy who should recuse himself from the investigation as he was prominently featured in the notes of trump's call with zelensky.

If you think what barr is up to is completely fair and objective, I've got a bridge to sell you. I mean, he's already going against the acknowledged facts as determined by mueller and the gop-led senate investigation that russia interfered to benefit trump.

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jama7(6)

Barr has already lost all credibility with the Mueller report lie. Even IF he did everything on the up and up with this investigation it doesn't matter. You never recover from moves like he pulled.

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chase_gw

If Barr is interfering in an inappropriate way Durham should quit. The telling tale will be how much of the report is released and how it is couched.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Proofreading, folks - I think some autocompleted text is scrambling people's comments.

P.S. Here's a commentary from Digby that is quite thought-provoking, IMO:

https://www.salon.com/2019/10/25/bill-barrs-alternate-universe-investigation-has-a-goal-right-wing-authoritarian-rule/

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Delilah66

“Durham was praised, until he started to find the truth.”

”I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Durham”

I questioned his ability way up thread:

I’m undecided about whether or not his failure to deliver was due to lack of ability or lack of integrity. We shall see how this turns out in a completely torn up administration.


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elvis

The telling tale will be how much of the report is released and how it is couched.

"Mind you": you'll never know for sure what the original says.

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catkinZ8a

chase_gw

If Barr is interfering in an inappropriate way Durham should quit.


What color's the sky in your world?

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Carro

^^LOL

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Delilah66

From carolb’s link: “In a nutshell, Barr agrees with former President Richard Nixon, who said, "If the president does it, it's not illegal."”

I guess this means Nixon resigned even though his actions were not illegal. So Barr’s demi-god has feet of clay. How disillusioning for Barr.

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Ziemia(6a)

Durham's work has been measured in years, not weeks.

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Ziemia(6a)

Durham would be influenced by Barr only if Durham allows it. Durham's role is one of independence

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HU9999

catkinZ8a

What color's the sky in your world?

Carro

^^LOL

I'm curious. Does this comment and your response count as one of these:

So many put downs, so short on FACTS.

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elvis

I'd like to hear the answer too. What color is the sky in your world?

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Stan Areted

Well from the number of Chicken Little episodes, I'd say that sky is up close black!

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

On trumpster Earth the sky is orange, even when the demos say it's blue., which it is.

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adoptedbyhounds

Which AG was John Durham “working for” in 2010, Delilah? What did that AG do with the information in Durham’s report?

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Hmmm - you were being silly with the orange sky thought, but serious about the blue sky. Actually, the sky is violet or violet blue ..... for 2 reasons. 1) there is a greater reflectance/scattering effect of the shorter wavelengths (the blue end of the spectrum) of light when they collide with gasses and particles in the atmosphere (Rayliegh scattering). 2) Because of how the cones in our eyes work, we only perceive the sky as being blue. Individual cones are sensitive to the wavelengths of red, green, or blue light. When light strikes our retina, the brain interprets strength of signals from individual cones which drives our perception of color. The actual color of an object varies from what we perceive. While peak sensitivity of individual cones favors red, green, or blue, they also detect light of other colors. Blue cones are also marginally stimulated by red and/or green light. In the end, what this means is, if the sky really was blue, we would see it as turquoise.

Al

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lurker111

On trumpster Earth the sky is orange, even when the demos say it's blue., which it is.

I give the left absolutely no credence, whatsoever. So, I had to check. Nope, the sky is gray. It was pink last night.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Darn, I was expecting one of you trumpsters to post a pic of a sundown where it's rays cast an orange hue on clouds low in the blue sky.....and a sundown would be very appropriate.

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catkinZ8a

Does this comment and your response count

______________________


No.

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Ziemia(6a)

bizarro

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adoptedbyhounds

"Because barr is not protecting the constitution, but the president."

Nonsense. Barr is protecting our Constitution by preserving the right of the American people to elect their own president. We get to do that whether the losers like it or not. Corrupt individuals inside and outside government thought they were smarter than middle America. They first tried smearing Trump as a Russian asset, hoping to render him un-electable.

When that didn't work and he was elected despite their efforts to "stop it," they continued the smears, believing (as many here did) that he would quickly be thrown out of office. But they were wrong.

Donald Trump stood up to them. He didn't run. And now the investigation into how the preposterous "Trump is a Russian asset" hoax grew into a threat against our system and our right to pick our own president is moving forward. As a criminal investigation.


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jama7(6)

Well, AFTER "electing our president" we have the right to hold him to account, the highest standards and expect him to perform his duties within the framework of our constitution. Trump has already trampled that and even feels imperious and Kinglike enough to announce on TV that he thinks it's a horrible restriction on him! "Phony clauses" and all that ridiculous stuff the poor guy has to put up with.

Narcissists usually don't run. They attack, blame, bully and create their own reality to preserve their vision of self. It's not courage, it's a serious mental disorder.

He's indefensible.

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Ziemia(6a)

We have the right to have the president elected via the Electoral College.

Remember, we do not actually directly vote for the president.

The US Constitution provides for the election of a president.

The US Constitution provides for the removal of a president.


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Joaniepoanie

ABH...nice fairytale ya got goin there. Barr got the job because he pledged loyalty to Trump....that’s Trump’s only hiring criteria. Barr proved his loyalty to Trump and not the Constitution when he summarized the Mueller report in Trump’s favor. He also has a shady history with the Bush 1 administration. Now he’s flying around the world at taxpayer expense trying to dig up dirt based on a RW conspiracy theory that has already been debunked.

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Stan Areted

Barr got the job because he as an honorable, smart man of integrity.

That's not good for democrats.

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Ann

Stan, that's for sure!

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catkinZ8a

Barr got the job because he pledged loyalty to Trump....that’s Trump’s only hiring criteria.


Hoot! Nyuk!

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jama7(6)

Guess you don't even listen to Trump on THAT subject. Loyalty this is.

"I need loyalty. I expect loyalty," Trump told Comey during the meeting, insinuating, in the director's opinion, that the future of his job depended on his loyalty to the president. Comey told Trump that he would always tell him the truth. That May, Trump fired him.

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chase_gw

No one with integrity would stand by Trump' s lawless behaviour excusing it based on his personal belief that a sitting President is above the law.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

A confidence man exhibits confidence. That's how he "cons" folks.

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elvis

A confident man exhibits confidence.

Fixed it for you.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Time will tell.

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Joaniepoanie

Stan Areted

Barr got the job because he as an honorable, smart man of integrity.

********

During Bush 1 Barr was dubbed the Cover-Up General.

Barr Has Always Been a Cover-Up Specialist:

https://theweek.com/articles/839008/attorney-general-barr-always-been-coverup-specialist


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lurker111

Barr isn't doing a "cover up". He's exposing the crimes against America.

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Ziemia(6a)

He's creating parts of what he is exposing.

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lurker111

He's creating parts of what he is exposing.

The frame job failed and everyone knows what's going on. LMK when Barr is holding a fake Russian dossier, paid for by the DNC. I'm not talking about hillary's.

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Ziemia(6a)

last word

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Joaniepoanie

The only crime against America is Trump.

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lurker111

We'll see. :)

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adoptedbyhounds

"ABH...nice fairytale ya got goin there."

Lucky me! It's not my fairy tale that's under investigation. The people who need to worry are the ones who cooked up the "Donald Trump is a Russian Asset!" nonsense.

Some very powerful people forgot their place. They underestimated President Trump and the American people, while overestimating their own cleverness.

Looking forward to learning what was done in our name, and by whom.

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Joaniepoanie

Yeah well, how many Trump comrades are in jail or awaiting sentence? And looks like more to come.

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jama7(6)

Stay tuned for the Roger Stone trial , Nov 5th! The idiot was still trying to get his gag order removed as of this week. I can see where he's feeling frustrated given his propensity for diarrhea of the mouth.

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jama7(6)

Trump and the American people

Trump and SOME American people....

We've underestimated NO one as you will see when we reach the public questioning stage. All proof is on the dem side, none on the right. Is that what you call "winning"?

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Iris GW

adopted, do you think that Trump asked Ukraine's president to help him investigate a political rival during that phone call? And if it turns out that he did, do you think that is an impeachable offense?

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jama7(6)

ADH...May I suggest you read my post re: the Cautionary statement if you haven't yet? That's really all you need to know to realize the lie Trump is caught in....and how he keeps digging himself in deeper and deeper.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Just saw this one...


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Delilah66

Great to see how little the right believes in Liberty. And now we know trump is a cross-dresser, safe in the knowledge that no one on the left cares about that. <shrug>

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Delilah66

Carro love the avatar! New or did I miss the change?

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Ann

"adopted, do you think that Trump asked Ukraine's president to help him investigate a political rival during that phone call? And if it turns out that he did, do you think that is an impeachable offense?"

I'm not adopted, Iris, but I do have some polling info I think is very pertinent to your question.

38% think the Ukraine phone conversation was an impeachable offense. 21% think it was wrong but not impeachable. 31% think there was nothing wrong with the conversation. 10% were undecided.

This information according to a new Suffolk poll. I assume Nancy hopes bringing it more out in the open will increase these numbers, because otherwise, Americans do not see this as a reason for impeachment.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/new-poll-poses-serious-questions-about-dem-impeachment-drive

Additionally, polling numbers for both the inquiry and for removal are now heading down for the last week. RCP (linked below) now shows a nice graph of the trend. You can easily click into the only inquiry and the removal polls within this link, should you have interest.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/public_approval_of_the_impeachment_and_removal_of_president_trump-6957.html


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Ann

Iris, also to provide my own answer to the poll. If I would have been a participant, my answer would have fallen right between nothing wrong with the conversation and wrong but not impeachable. Honestly, I think to try to impeach a president about money withheld (that wasn't withheld) for a 2016/Biden investigation (that never occurred) is a definite loser, for sure. I agree with the last paragraph of the article I linked in my last comment above.

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Carro

Ann, I would have answered the same. I question if a President is supposed to ignore possible corruption in a previous administration, just because the VP of that previous administration and point person for the administration happens to in question, and is running in the next Presidential race.

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Ann

As Dan Henninger said in an interview yesterday, Trump should just focus on the upcoming election, because all this impeachment stuff will be done by late Jan. He does not think there is a chance Trump will be removed from office.

I think, except for the Dems who hate Trump, it's all getting a little boring (and stupid) for the rest of the country.

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Iris GW

No one said that corruption in a previous administration should be ignored.

But plenty of people said you should not ask a foreign gov't to help you investigate someone running against you while dangling the possibility of aid in return.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

It's not just the 'investigate my political rival' thing, you know. The removal of Yovanovitch is also a part of this.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

"It's not my fairy tale that's under investigation." ..... like that answer.

Al

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Ziemia(6a)

Yes, please seek out corruption in previous administrations if it's in the best interests of the country.

BUT don't use it as a bargaining chip - especially with a country that is currently fighting an invasion by Russia!


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Kathy

It’s crazy to think Trump conspiracy theory incriminates Volker, Taylor, Yovanovich while Manafort is off the hook. Manafort knows more about Trump and the Russians than Trump wants anyone to find out. That is one reason he is working so hard to flip that.

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chase_gw

I can certainly see why many Trump supporters want to stop focusing on the impeachment and may even consider it boring.......facing the unfolding facts is not comfortable for many, many Republicans and getting more uncomfortable.

As far as Trump focusing on the upcoming election....not possible he is obsessed with this and with destroying those he considers disloyal to him.

He should take a page out of Clinton play book and continue to focus on the job he was elected to do......

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Ann

"He should take a page out of Clinton play book and continue to focus on the job he was elected to do...…"

Yes, he and Congress all should! This is a waste of everyone's time. I'll place a gentleman's bet right now that Trump won't be removed from office. Pelosi knows that too and is only hoping to play a political card in hopes he'll lose support (plus she got so much pressure to proceed with impeachment). But, what a gamble she's taking! As history has shown us, that can easily go the other way.

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chase_gw

Pelosi, is continuing to work, to legislate and pass bills. For example NAFTA 2.0 is almost totally resolved, only very minor issues to resolve before going to the floor. The fellow in charge of negotiations of behalf of Trump is very pleased with the progress. Several other bills are being marked up, while hundreds sit on McConnell's desk.

The notion that the House is not working is total bogus.....do some research, it is remarkable what they have accomplished.

As far as a gentlemen's bet........ I have never heard anyone say they expected the Senate to convict Trump. I certainly don't.

However, it is clear several Republican Senators are ready to consider conviction if the evidence shows Trump did what he is accused of doing, others may follow.

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Iris GW

Pelosi knows that too and is only hoping to play a political card in hopes he'll lose support

What I'm hearing here is that one should only go forward with an investigation if you think it has the outcome that you want ... huh?

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Ann

Sort of Iris, but I'd word it differently. Unless an impeachment is a process which has bipartisan support and a solid basis, it's little more than a political ploy. It's a very serious step and should be something only undertaken if Congress (and the voters) are on the side of it and consider it just and fair. That's just not the case with this. Republicans (both in Congress and in the voting public) simply aren't being convinced of the basis. This is just a Dem anti-Trump tactic - including a desperate search for a reasonable basis and struggling to find one or put enough drama behind what they've got to convince anyone else. Too many are accurately (IMO) viewing this as a vindictive game rather than a serious task.

But, I'm not going to take a bunch of time arguing this back and forth. Those kind of HT back and forth exchanges are a silly waste of time. I very much understand you likely have an entirely different view and I'm not going to waste effort trying to convince anyone of my view. I've expressed here what my opinion is and I'm not going to waste time repeating the same thing because others feel differently. That's fine - we can disagree.

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Iris GW

I'd like to remind you of a difference here. This happened in the here and now. The Clinton impeachment happened after months of investigation. Pelosi and team had to do their investigation at the same time people were saying impeachment. Perhaps if there had been an investigation time period before, like with Clinton, you might have had that solid basis.

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chase_gw

From what I am hearing the majority of Americans are onboard with the impeachment and even removal....although personally I think that is premature.

If a majority of Americans suppprt impeachment hearings how can it not be a valid process? The fact Trump supporters don't like it is not reason enough to suggest it is not a perfectly valid and Constitutional process.


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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

"If a majority of Americans suppprt impeachment hearings how can it not be a valid process?" We're not a democracy, which would allow the majority to visit all manner of indignities on the minority. The majority cannot simply claim plurality, then run roughshod over the minority because they feel like it. Our Constitution makes very clear our rights do not descend from our government, stays the government from passing laws that violate our rights, and guarantees all manner of minorities will be afforded the same treatment as the majority, though there are plenty of laws on the books that give certain minorities special protections.

Trumps "impeachment" is a political ploy. The left has produced mountains of word salad that at every turn has left them looking foolish, childish, and vengeful. The House of Representatives is indeed where initial impeachment proceedings are to take place, but petty politicians using repulsive means to get their pound of flesh because they lost to Donald Trump is not an appropriate use of the venue.

Of course, your answer yet again will be that THIS TIME, you really have the goods, but your record insofar as making accurate predictions since DT became president has been absolutely abysmal, so we'll see how you fare. Personally, I think the Dems have a death wish, but can't even get that right - all they do is keep shooting themselves in the foot with every new ploy.

Is it OK for the President of the United States to ask A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT to investigate an American? Of course it is. Why wouldn't it be? We do it all the time.

I assume you know that the USA has the ability and the means to investigate wrong doing by its politicians. Of course they have the means to do that, but what good are the means absent the fortitude to use them. Their ability to look into any matter they'd like to is amazing. E.g., look at how easily we tapped Merkel's phone and listened in on her. All we needed was a nod from Obama.

Al

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Delilah66

“He does not think there is a chance Trump will be removed from office.”

Who cares what he thinks? His thoughts don’t count in the decision.

Impeachment even without a guilty verdict has the potential to sink the stinker.

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Jennifer

What I think is poetic justice is that Biden might not be our nominee . But he did his job getting trump impeached.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Impeachment even without a guilty verdict has the potential to sink the stinker. I suppose that's true in many cases, but don't forget this manufactured tempest in a teapot that represents only the left's latest exercise in nullification of the '16 election doesn't set well with Americans. You (as the collective left) lost the '16 election because Trump stunk less than HRC. You put a lot of eggs in one basket when you conspire to invent new increasingly ridiculous charges you fan into atrocities on pretty much a per diem basis. There is a lot of stink associated with that, and a large measure is going to rub off on the left. Are you sure you can afford that?

But he did his job getting trump impeached. DT has been being impeached since before the election. To my way of thinking, someone who would allow himself to be used in such a manner isn't much of a person, and surely not one I could ever respect.

Anyone can impeach someone. The hard part is getting the conviction. We'll see how you fare.

Al

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Annie Deighnaugh

"manufactured tempest in a teapot"

So you're ok with a president:

  • extorting an ally for dirt on a political opponent and *evidence* that the russians didn't hack the US elections (made up or not) in return for military aid
  • accepting a thing of value from a foreign government for a political campaign which is illegal
  • withholding funds duly issued by congress which is illegal
  • running a shadow state department by a guy who has not cleared security, has not been vetted by the senate, who is supposedly representing the president's personal interests, but is actually a foreign agent paid by a ukranian national with ties to the russian mob, who has illegally been funneling money into the RNC and is now under arrest for bribery...which is a huge national security risk
  • obstructing justice and in contempt of congress for refusing to allow his staff to obey subpoenas, while burying evidence of his interactions with ukraine in a super secret server to cover up his wrongdoing

Hardly a tempest in a teapot..it's a fire storm and the alarms and sirens are going off -- yet the trumplicans hear and see nothing.

SMH

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elvis

Boy, that's really out there.

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Annie Deighnaugh

No elvis, that is not 'out there'...that is the evidence being provided to the house by the witnesses under oath including those that were on the phone calls with trump. That's what trump&co are doing.

Just because you're not hearing it from wherever you source your news doesn't mean it's not happening. And that's what will be coming out once the house starts their public hearings.

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Annie Deighnaugh

But more important, if you (trump supporters) put on that hat -- even for a moment -- where you accept that what I've laid out is true, would that help you understand why so many dems' hair is on fire? Why impeachment proceedings are moving forward? It has *nothing* to do with hillary losing and *everything* to do with what trump is doing, who he's doing it with, who he's doing it for, and how he's getting it done.

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Annie Deighnaugh

And if you accept -- even for a moment -- that what I've posted is true, then do you understand why trump&co are so bent on defying subpoenas, blocking witnesses, burying evidence in super secret servers, trying to discredit witnesses -- even war heroes?

You see, the thing about this narrative is that it holds together logically and fits all the facts in evidence.

The alternative narrative -- that it's all a deep-state conspiracy to discredit trump, and that somehow, from the get-go, all the republicans in the fbi joined the democrats who joined the russians -- or is it now the ukranians -- to build this elaborate scheme to push propaganda through US social media to laud trump and trash hillary, including the dnc releasing their own emails and strategic campaign plan to trump to somehow smear trump with a ginned up investigation that they forgot to tell anyone about until after the election -- makes no sense. And if it doesn't make sense, it's not true.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

Anyone can imagine any scenario, no matter how zany, and fabricate a narrative describing how the dog drank the last beer in the refrigerator, that holds together logically ..... which isn't to say yours does. If the left doesn't get what it wants in the immediate, they can't help but look at it as a crisis for now and forever. You start with an "if" - if we could manage to make this, this, this, that, and these potentialities seem to be true, it would prove that DT is guilty of 'something'. From there, you jump straight to "He's guilty of everything as charged" because you allow your emotions to rule over reason, and "he needs to be impeached". Your plan from day 1 was to resist, obfuscate, and pillorize him.

BTW - the deep state doesn't consist exclusively of the obvious power brokers with huge financial interests at stake, should the current state of affairs change or be exposed. The less obvious unelected bureaucrats appointed by past presidents and their staffs remain in their positions when administrations change, sit in positions of significant power, and their edicts are treated as laws. While they are supposed to be neutral, they are not. Obama hired thousands of people he knew would be beholden to him during his term, and their ongoing acts of resistance and subterfuge are formidable. President Trump has repeatedly called attention to the swamp, which means he has nearly all of Washington as well as the hoodwinked left clamoring for his destruction.

If YOU accept for a moment that any of this is true, would you not want it corrected? Probably not, given the left's platform is essentially that of the Communist Party, which has its sights squarely on the US. Even with our freedoms being eroded at a rapid rate, we're still the bosom of freedom and some of the luckiest people on the earth because we live here. The left isn't woke enough to realize they're useful idiots in a plan to destroy America as we know Her. Whomever supports the rise of socialism/communism sells his fellow citizens and future generations into slavery.

Al

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adoptedbyhounds

Annie,

Who said all the Republicans in the FBI joined foreign power(s) in an elaborate scheme to trash Hillary and laud Trump?

You're wrong right off the bat, because the scheme was to trash TRUMP so he would not be elected. In the event he was elected President, the plan was to impeach him. Yes, that really happened. Dems are still at it today.

The goal was to to deny the American people their right to chose their own president. James Comey (under investigation last I heard) already admitted to leaking memos to a friend in order to have Robert Mueller (a mere figurehead) investigate Trump.

The DNC refused to allow the FBI to see their equipment. We are to believe that's OK, and there's nothing suspicious about letting an outside group, Crowdstrike do the "investigating."

That's not how the FBI is supposed to handle national security threats. Then again, the fact that the DNC and FBI agreed a third party inspection was just fine raises more questions than it answers. What legitimate reason could the DNC have for keeping the FBI away from its equipment? And why would the FBI allow that to happen, if RUSSIANS were involved???

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Annie Deighnaugh

abh, you keep repeating nonfacts as if they were true. They're not.

The FBI didn't need to *see the equipment*. They received mirrored images of the servers. It's not the hardware that was attacked, but the software. There were no russians in the DNC server farms swapping out circuit boards and chips...it was all done via the internet. There was *no* physical invasion. There were no 'fingerprints' to see or scratched screws on boxes or hairs or dna to collect.

The DNC didn't turn over their servers to the FBI because losing the hardware for a month or more if they'd done so, would've completely crippled their campaign. Far easier and better to keep the hardware in place and scrub the software to get the system clean again.

And to think that the competition isn't tough between parties during an election is just silly. Of course it is. Just ask hillary what she faced from the fbi and trump and the russians. 4 1/2 years of smearing and investigations into her handling of her emails -- crooked hillary -- lock her up -- including announcing even more just 10 days before the election which tanked her in the polls, that only now has finally has concluded with 'never mind' and 'nothing here'. You mean to tell me that it was just coincidence that all this went on at a fevered pitch during the campaign??

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Annie Deighnaugh

Al, your first paragraph applies more to you than me. I'm not jumping to conclusions here. And when it comes to letting emotion overwhelm reason, take a look at your final paragraph where your hyperbole goes far beyond any reason.

And as far as the dog and the beer, show me evidence, give me witnesses to provide evidence. However when it comes to the deep state, there is *no* evidence...only trigger words like soros and globalists.



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adoptedbyhounds

Annie, it is a fact the DNC refused to allow the FBI to inspect its equipment. Despite our being told the Russians did the hacking, the FBI did not inspect it.

A private company did. If the FBI didn’t need to see it it had no business asking. And yet it did. Repeatedly.

You say the DNC couldn’t do without its hardware for a month.

How did Crowdstrike manage to inspect it, when the FBI could not?



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Wants to Grow

Hi Annie, To use your own words, "you keep repeating nonfacts as if they were true. They're not."

•extorting an ally for dirt on a political opponent and *evidence* that the russians didn't hack the US elections (made up or not) in return for military aid

You insist on editing the official transcript released by Trump. Why are you promoting the falsehood that he asked for dirt? The Ukrainians received their funding September 11 without conducting an investigation into Biden, so how can you label this as extortion?

•accepting a thing of value from a foreign government for a political campaign which is illegal

Please elaborate what was gifted to Trump’s campaign.

•withholding funds duly issued by congress which is illegal

Obama broke promises of aid to the Ukrainians. Obama followed through on his promise to be flexible with Putin after the election. And, in 2014, Russia annexes Crimea, but Obama ignores Ukraine’s pleas for assistance. Why was that okay, but Trump WHO delivered aid, is not okay?

•running a shadow state department by a guy who has not cleared security, has not been vetted by the senate, who is supposedly representing the president's personal interests, but is actually a foreign agent paid by a ukranian national with ties to the russian mob, who has illegally been funneling money into the RNC and is now under arrest for bribery...which is a huge national security risk

Allegations are not impeachable offenses. Presidents, since George Washington have used personal envoys to conduct Foreign diplomacy.

•obstructing justice and in contempt of congress for refusing to allow his staff to obey subpoenas, while burying evidence of his interactions with ukraine in a super secret server to cover up his wrongdoing

Trump is not obstructing justice, he is obstructing Congress, which is not an impeachable offense. Congress is not the superior branch of government that the Executive branch is supposed to bow down to. Also, your concerns about a super secret server is both hypocritical and laughable. But rest assured that server Trump used isn't located in the bathroom.

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Ziemia(6a)

The following is a theory based on suppositions. And the connections between the various points are convoluted or fragile.

because the scheme was to trash TRUMP so he would not be elected. In the event he was elected President, the plan was to impeach him. Yes, that really happened. Dems are still at it today.

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Ziemia(6a)

PS:

The Trump campaign had a scheme to ensure he was elected.

Trump laid out reasons why he would not accept the results if Hillary won.

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elvis

No personal offense intended, annie, honest.

But! This excerpt from one of your um...imaginative...post sums them up for me: ...makes no sense. And if it doesn't make sense, it's not true.

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Ziemia(6a)

Many of us accept Horowitz's findings. And will accept Durham's. Many may not accept his decisions about what to do about them.

We just have to see the findings and without any Trump appointee summarizing it for us.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

I'm content with what I said precisely as I said it, and getting lectured about hyperbole here is wonderfully precious.

The word 'you' is used collectively below -


Based on how the news is reported, there is little question the left 'gets it wrong' time after time precisely because they have jumped to a conclusion w/o the inconvenience of aforethought or proof. How many smoking guns have turned out to be nonstarter pistols? You want your vision realized, but without the bother of feedback.


The minds of the (collective) left have a distinct inability to process failure, or news they don't want to hear. Failure and bad news gets bounced around in their processor and comes out as proof of victimhood, which they make into a badge, and hope to outdo one another. The already legendary failure of not capturing the presidency in '16 has half the country thinking themselves as victims ("I've been wronged and I have the badge to prove it right here, see?"). Additionally, there is a link between the left's failures and the successes of Donald Trump. His successes also go into their processors and come out as an extra measure of victimhood. Now you're really rocking this victimhood thing.


It started when the left realized they could convince a variety of identity groups of their victimhood, then convince them their only hope of salvation would be to vote Democrat. So convincing was their enjoinery, they were able to raise thousands from the dead to vote ..... but that's a topic for another day.


As far as the deep state - it's not at all difficult to agree there is a group of unelected individuals, some with great power outside of government and others appointed to government positions, working A) to put their personal interests ahead of the people and our country, and/or B) intentionally at cross purposes to the current administration because they don't share the same horizon.

Al

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Ziemia(6a)

Hi again, WTG

No full "official transcript" has yet been released by Trump or anyone else.

So, this remains untrue:

"You insist on editing the official transcript released by Trump. "

Because she can't edit something that she (or you or me) hasn't seen. So.

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Ziemia(6a)

Have no idea who makes up that "collective left" as its behavior (description) doesn't describe most of the informed opinions and decisions made by those with relevant backgrounds and various available reports that I have read or heard.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Many of you are too young to remember this....

Nixon "releasing transcripts" of his Oval office recordings. Later on once the real tapes were released was when the public finally knew the whole story and the truth of his corruption. Trump is going down this path with his edited transcript version of the truth.

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Ann

Now that the GOP can supposedly subpoena witnesses (ahem), I'm particularly looking forward to hearing from Schiff and Ciaramella.

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Ziemia(6a)

Chris Wallace fact-checked Republicans Thursday as they were beginning to debate the impeachment bill on the House floor Thursday morning. Wallace explained that the impeachment inquiry against President Donald Trump was about a lot more than his phone call with Ukraine.

“One of the points I would make, and this is to push back, I respect Bill Bennett a lot,” Wallace said. “But he makes it — and some Republicans do — that it was just a phone call. It was a lot more than a phone call. It was a coordinated campaign. What you’ve heard from Bill Taylor and Fiona Hill and Lt. Col. Vindman and a bunch of others, it was a coordinated campaign by people outside the regular diplomatic channels at the State Department

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cattyles

You can always tell who trump(ers) fear by who they ...um..attack.

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Ann

Cattyles, who, in particular, is it that you think Republicans fear based on "attack"?

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Ann

"Chris Wallace fact-checked Republicans Thursday as they were beginning to debate the impeachment bill on the House floor Thursday morning. Wallace explained that the impeachment inquiry against President Donald Trump was about a lot more than his phone call with Ukraine."

Oh, Wallace just began a show for an hour (Shep's old spot). I imagine he'll talk about it a lot in the hour.

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elvis

Trump is going down this path with his edited transcript version of the truth.

Now preface your statement ^^^ with "In my opinion" or the like, and your statement is fair.

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Ann

Morrison thinks the transcript version accurately reflects the call, and Morrison was on the call. This, from his opening statement today.

"Morrison said the summary released by the White House of the call between Mr. Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky accurately reflects his memory and understanding of the call"

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chase_gw

" reflects his memory" .......aka to my recollection

Taylor was very specific that there were parts missing and that his offered edits were deliberately left out of the transcripts without explanation.

Miind you it doesn't matter much anymore the testimony verifying a quid pro quo has been very clear and damming. Sondland has some serious explaining to do.


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catkinZ8a

Ziemia

Hi again, WTG

No full "official transcript" has yet been released by Trump or anyone else.

So, this remains untrue:

"You insist on editing the official transcript released by Trump. "

Because she can't edit something that she (or you or me) hasn't seen. So.


_________________________________________

Wrong again:


https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/25/trump-ukraine-phone-call-transcript-text-pdf-1510770


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-transcript-read-ukraine-president-phone-call-transcript-pdf-released-today-joe-biden-crowdstrike-2019-09-25/


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trumps-ukraine-call-transcript-read-the-document




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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Now that the GOP can supposedly subpoena witnesses (ahem), I'm particularly looking forward to hearing from Schiff and Ciaramella.

I wish Schiff would subpoena Nunes to wrap up some unfinished monkey business concerning his 2017 midnight mole runs over to the white house.

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tapla(mid-Michigan z-5b-6a)

..... and I hope Schiff is brought in front of the ethics committee (per the Gaetz complaint) and censured (if appropriate) for colluding with the whistle blower, lying about it, and making representations to the American people that were false.

Al

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Ann

I completely agree, Al!

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elvis

Me too. The Republicans have put up with quite enough. I think that many of the Republican lawmakers have had difficulty grasping just how nutso the Dem powers-that-be area have been acting. It's finally sunk in, and IMO there will be hell to pay.

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Ziemia(6a)

I am not wrong. Read it.

There is a document described as a transcript. It is called "the transcript". It is not a word for word record of the phone call.

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elvis

Still can't quite grasp that straw?

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Ziemia(6a)

"The memorandum released by the Justice Department is not, according to the administration, a verbatim transcript. The text, according to a footnote, is the record of the notes and recollections of the officers and National Security Council policy staff "assigned to listen and memorialize the conversation in written form."

And it also says it's not a complete record.

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Ziemia(6a)

"The Constitution is very clear and very non-specific. It basically says the House has the power to impeach. It doesn’t say anything about how they do it, what committee they send it to, whether the hearings are open or closed.”

Trump Loyalists are desperate. Maybe scared.

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Kathy

Pubs need to watch cspan if they want to see first hand what is going on. Fox is skewing the facts. The disinformation shown by Pubs on here is ridiculous.

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Ann

We're just fine, Ziemia. I think today was an excellent day. Morrison's testimony went very well and the info on the WB is really getting very, very interesting.

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Kathy

Since everything is so partisan with the pubs doesn’t it strike you as wrong that Morrison is a life long Republican? He might be biased, doncha think?

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chase_gw

Guess Ann missed the part where Morrison verified that there was a quid quo pro relative to the meeting.

As far as Morrison being a Republican .......guess that makes him a Trump collaborator...or so the FOX standard seems to be.

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elvis

Trump Loyalists are desperate. Maybe scared.

Nah. What? Because it's Halloween? Boo!

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Kathy

Schiff is doing a fabulous job of keeping the inquiry on tract and exposing facts. I doubt there is a court anywhere that would find fault with his methods.

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elvis

Kathy

Schiff is doing a fabulous job of keeping the inquiry on tract[sic] and exposing facts.

Um, no. Shifty Schiff probably couldn't even do a very good job of exposing himself.

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cattyles

Um.

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Ann

I can't wait until Schiff is called upon to testify. The TV ratings will be huge!

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Ann

"Guess Ann missed the part where Morrison verified that there was a quid quo pro relative to the meeting."

Yup

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chase_gw

I can help you with that is you want....or you could read his statement.

But much later......I'm off to enjoy fun stuff.

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Kathy

In particular, Morrison verified that Trump's envoy to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, conveyed to a Ukrainian official that the military aid would be released if the country investigated an energy firm linked to the son of former vice president Joe Biden.

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elvis

I don't think so.

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cattyles

You’re wrong. Broaden your sources.

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Annie Deighnaugh

So much to respond to, so little time:

WTG: You insist on editing the official transcript released by Trump. Why are you promoting the falsehood that he asked for dirt? The Ukrainians received their funding September 11 without conducting an investigation into Biden, so how can you label this as extortion?

a) there is no official "transcript" -- there are notes of a call with ellipses in it meaning stuff was left out, and a witness who says, as was his role, he tried to get more facts added to the notes but they were rejected. If there is a recording or other transcription of the call, it hasn't been made public...and whatever record of the call there is was buried in a super secret server which was against policy for the use of that server.

b) the funding was approved in May but not released until September *after* the WB complaint was made and the IG made his report of it in August. It's not at all clear that the WH would've released the funding without the WB complaint.

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Annie Deighnaugh

wtg:

•accepting a thing of value from a foreign government for a political campaign which is illegal

Please elaborate what was gifted to Trump’s campaign.

The thing of value would be dirt on biden and his son...which trump could then use -- much as he did hillary's emails -- to benefit his reëlection campaign by trashing his leading political rival. Moreover, it is illegal to even *ask*: By directly requesting or suggesting that President Zelensky use Ukraine’s resources to help his reelection efforts, Trump violated campaign finance law. https://campaignlegal.org/update/yes-president-trump-violated-campaign-finance-law-asking-ukraine-favor

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Annie Deighnaugh

wtg: Why was that okay, but Trump WHO delivered aid, is not okay?

The president withholding funds approved by congress is called "impoundment". From wikipedia: The Impoundment Control Act of 1974 provides that the president may propose rescission of specific funds, but that rescission must be approved by both the House of Representatives and Senate within 45 days. In effect, the requirement removed the impoundment power, since Congress is not required to vote on the rescission and, in fact, has ignored the vast majority of presidential requests.[2]

trump withheld the funding from May to Sept ... certainly more than 45 days. Note too that people in OMB also raised questions about why and how the money was held up because they knew it wasn't kosher.

Then trump lied about why the funding was withheld...it was an 'interagency problem'; it was because ukraine was too corrupt; it was because Europe didn't give enough. These last two are completely contradictory on their face...the US said they were too corrupt to receive it but Europe should give more despite the corruption?

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Annie Deighnaugh

•running a shadow state department by a guy who has not cleared security, has not been vetted by the senate, who is supposedly representing the president's personal interests, but is actually a foreign agent paid by a ukranian national with ties to the russian mob, who has illegally been funneling money into the RNC and is now under arrest for bribery...which is a huge national security risk

WTG: Allegations are not impeachable offenses. Presidents, since George Washington have used personal envoys to conduct Foreign diplomacy.

No allegations are not impeachable offenses, but once there is sufficient evidence, they are no longer allegations. And right now there is plenty of evidence of giuliani's ties to parnas and fruman, both of whom are under arrest and both of whom have strong ties to russian mobster firtash who himself is fighting extradition to the US for his criminal activities.

From the WSJ: WASHINGTON—Two donors to a pro- Trump fundraising committee who helped Rudy Giuliani’s efforts to investigate Democrat Joe Biden were arrested late Wednesday on criminal charges stemming from their alleged efforts to funnel foreign money into U.S. elections and influence U.S. politics on behalf of at least one unnamed Ukrainian politician.

In an indictment unsealed Thursday, federal prosecutors in Manhattan alleged Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman were engaged in political activities in the U.S. on behalf of one or more Ukrainian government officials—including a lobbying campaign, targeted at a Republican congressman, to remove the U.S. ambassador in Kyiv. President Trump ordered the ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, removed from her post in May.

The two men were charged with four counts, including conspiracy, falsification of records and lying to the Federal Election Commission about their political donations, which included a $325,000 donation through a limited liability company to a super PAC formed to support Mr. Trump, according to the indictment. Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, said Thursday the investigation was continuing. https://www.wsj.com/articles/two-foreign-born-men-who-helped-giuliani-on-ukraine-arrested-on-campaign-finance-charges-11570714188

Moreover, US envoys are not usually paid by russian mobsters, nor do they work specifically to undermine the State Dept personnel decisions as they did with Marie Yovanovitch. WASHINGTON — John Sullivan, the deputy secretary of state, said on Wednesday that President Trump’s personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani was involved in a smear campaign to oust the ambassador to Ukraine, publicly confirming a key part of the saga behind the impeachment inquiry. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/30/us/politics/trump-ukraine-senate.html

Remember too that there is a difference between an impeachable offense and a criminal one for the president. A president can legally fill his cabinet with 18 yr old high school dropouts, so it's not criminal, but it could be impeachable.

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Annie Deighnaugh

WTG: Trump is not obstructing justice, he is obstructing Congress, which is not an impeachable offense. Congress is not the superior branch of government that the Executive branch is supposed to bow down to.

I would differ on that conclusion. Congress has the power to oversee the Executive Branch. It is fundamental to the system of checks and balances and divided government that our founding fathers designed into the Constitution. The Article 1 branch has the power to impeach and remove the president, which is, on its face, the ultimate oversight of the Executive Branch.

Moreover, contempt of congress, which in this case is refusing to comply with subpoenas, is criminal and is an impeachable offense if the House and Senate say it is. The Constitution left a wide open door for the legislative branch to decide what are "high crimes and misdemeanors", and during the nixon impeachment, obstructing congressional investigations was part of the 1st article of impeachment against him.

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jama7(6)

Annie....is obstruction a formal part of the charges against Trump?

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Stan Areted

Good news--the witch hunters are going to have to clean their house.

They know they have pathetic candidates and since even before President Trump took the oath of office they've been promising he'll be impeached--for anything, for nothing.

Now it's not just sour grapers and to remove him, but they never thought that President Trump would do such a good job as to even be close to be reelected.

Again--they're wrong.

Now they're desperate.

Emails between BO and HC being requested, many more--"more flexibility after the election"--sunshine on the vermin.

Can't wait.

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Iris GW

The House will impeach him. That's a given.

Democrats can't do anything about the Senate Republicans voting to acquit him. The Republicans will have to answer to the American people about their votes in 2020.

but they never thought that President Trump would do such a good job as to even be close to be reelected.

Not sure why you say he's close to being re-elected when his approval rating is so low and it's pretty early in the process.

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Annie Deighnaugh

jama, there are no formal charges against trump yet. The house only yesterday set the rules for holding public hearings and no date has yet been set as to when those hearings might start.

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olliesmom

Of course, The House will impeach him! We all know that!

Of course, President Trump will be re-elected! We all know that!

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elvis

cattyles

You’re wrong. Broaden your sources.

Cite yours.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Trump is going down this path with his edited transcript version of the truth.

-------------------------------

"Now preface your statement ^^^ with "In my opinion" or the like, and your statement is fair."

History has a funny way of repeating itself Elvis, trump is right on track as are repubs who backed nixon until the full recording were released to the public.

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queenmargo

Trump repeats no one, LOL, he's a "one of a kind" ;)

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Criminals are all alike margo, they just have different styles. trump isn't one of a kind, he's just one of the worse kind.

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Ann

"Democrats can't do anything about the Senate Republicans voting to acquit him. The Republicans will have to answer to the American people about their votes in 2020."

Well, I agree that some will have to answer to the American voters about their handling of this "impeachment", but we differ on who.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Well, if the impeach & remove numbers remain above 50% (and they will as more bad boy stuff comes out) then I think we know which party will pay the price for not doing so.

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cattyles

Elvis, sources have been provided many, many times and ignored.

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chase_gw

In particular, Morrison verified that Trump's envoy to the European Union, Gordon Sondland, conveyed to a Ukrainian official that the military aid would be released if the country investigated an energy firm linked to the son of former vice president Joe Biden.

The informtion posted above, by Kathy, is from Morrison's statement and testimony. Apparently FOX neglected to report that Morrison confirmed that a meeting between the leaders was contingent upon getting dirt on Biden....a quid pro quo.

....and there is many articles like this one

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/diplomat-who-raised-alarm-about-withholding-aid-to-ukraine-testifies-in-impeachment-probe/2019/10/22/086fb850-f436-11e9-8cf0-4cc99f74d127_story.html

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Wants to Grow

Hi Annie, Thank you for taking the time to make your responses. Of course we have different viewpoints, but I appreciate you sharing yours.

You say there is no official transcript. Is there any other process for the Memorandum of Communications (MEMCOM) that provides a more official transcript that what was released by Trump?

The so-called "memcon" is close to a verbatim transcript, although no audio recordings are made.

Individuals familiar with Trump White House procedure say one Situation Room

staffer, using voice-to-text software, repeats each word the president says and another listens and repeats what a foreign leader says. The spoken words are rendered as text and a rough draft is produced.

The draft, which in this case included a few ellipses, is circulated to several people, including NSC subject matter specialists who listened in on the call.

They edit the draft for accuracy. Each version is separately preserved on the T-Net system, forming an archive that documents various edits.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/nation-world/2019/11/01/impeachment-inquiry-focuses-on-two-white-house-lawyers/

As for the necessity for Trump to use a super secret server, considered the below previous national security violations:

The Washington Post in 2017 published full, leaked transcripts of the president's calls to the leaders of Mexico and Australia. The New York Times reported that after those leaks, the White House put more restrictions on who gets to hear the president's phone calls and see the notes from them.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-transcript-why-memo-of-president-donald-trump-ukraine-call-isnt-complete-transcript-2019-09-25/

By directly requesting or suggesting that President Zelensky use Ukraine’s resources to help his reelection efforts, Trump violated campaign finance law.

Here again is a complete fabrication of what was said on the call. Trump never referenced his reelection in the call! He was asking about interference in the 2016 US election. He was not asking about the 2020 election. Instead, Trump was asking to get to the bottom of the last administration’s Vice President’s admitted extortion to fire Ukraine’s prosecutor, under threat of denying $1 billion aid. It is incumbent for Trump to look in to the possible corruption involving our former Vice President.

Thank you for introducing me to the Impoundment Control Act of 1974. I was not previously familiar with it. However, reading the summary provides no references to impoundments by the President, as indicated in your post.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/93rd-congress/house-bill/7130

As for Guiliani being Trump’s envoy to Ukraine, we know Ukraine has had a corruption problem for longer than Trump’s entrance into the Presidential race. After all, doesn’t that Ukrainian Oligarch, who hired Hunter Biden, also have ties to Russian mobsters? Guiliani better step lightly. The Deep State seems to be gunning for him.

You write that Congress has the power to oversee the Executive Branch. This is not correct House of Representatives are one half of a third branch of government. The Constitution grants the House of Representatives the sole power of impeachment, but does not grant the House of Representatives the power to try impeachments. The Senate has the sole power to try all impeachments.

So, where in the Constitution does it say the House of Representatives have the power of subpoena? The House of Representatives is a legislative body, not a judicial body. They are not the boss of the President and they are not a court.

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Ann

Hmmmm Chase…. I think calling this a quid pro quo is quite a stretch. Trump has long been worried about corruption in Ukraine. But, don't worry, Bret Baier just reported that Nancy is considering pulling Mueller report stuff into the "impeachment" and now national security, quid pro quo, election interference, and whatever else - seems to be veering to OBSTRUCTION - once again:))))) In my opinion, this is just going really well for that smart cookie Madam Speaker (sarcasm intended).

"Morrison also disputed the account of a conversation that Ambassador Bill Taylor described in his testimony to Congress last week. Taylor recalled Morrison telling him about a separate conversation between U.S. ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland and one of Zelensky’s top advisers, in which Sondland told the adviser that the military aid was contingent on Zelensky’s willingness to publicly announce a probe into Burisma. "


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/latest-impeachment-witness-contradicts-vindmans-claim-that-key-details-were-left-out-of-ukraine-call-transcript/

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chase_gw

Ann, I didn't expect you would see anything wrong with insisting on an investigation into your political rival's son as a prerequiste to a meeting between the two leaders. However many , maybe even a majority, would call that a quid pro quo......you do this for me and I'll give you what you want.

ETA. Trump is about as much interested in corruption in the Ukraine as he is in safer gun rules in the US.....only when it is politically expedient.


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Kathy

Trump has long been worried about corruption in Ukraine? Since when?

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elvis

History has a funny way of repeating itself Elvis, trump is right on track as are repubs who backed nixon until the full recording were released to the public.

Cliché applied to a false analogy. That probably works for many here, though. Bravo, kudos, and magnifico to you!

Criminals are all alike margo, they just have different styles

Anyone who fudges a little on her income tax return is a criminal. Pedophiles are criminals. Criminals are not "all alike".

________________

cattyles

Elvis, sources have been provided many, many times and ignored.

So, the answer is no, you will not cite your source. Fine by me.

______________

Wants to Grow:

Thanks for a truly comprehensive and eminently coherent post!


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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Trump has long been worried about corruption in Ukraine? Since when?

Since putin started filling his head with pro russian and anti ukraine conspirosy stuff. trump's genious brain is just playdoe for putin.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

My trump/nixon analogy is perfect elvis, fits to a tee. Thx for the accolades

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Kathy

Putin needs Ukraine for Russia to be great. Trump has done everything to help Putin including at the moment withholding aid to Lebanon favoring Putin.

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Kathy

My recollection is that Ambassador Sondland’s proposal to Yermak was that it could be sufficient if the new Ukrainian prosecutor general, not President Zelensky, would commit to pursue the Burisma investigation,” Morrison told lawmakers.


It is a minor detail that Morrison understood Sondland to mean the prosecutor general as opposed to Zelensky would commit to investigating Burisma. Either way Trump wanted a commitment to his favor.

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Ann

He did want Burisma investigated. He still does!

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chase_gw

No doubt....BTW has he specifically mentioned any other company?

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Kathy

That’s because Giuliani and trump and their cohorts want the gas in Ukraine.

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Ann

I just don't think he did anything illegal and, despite their best efforts and oh so dramatic talk, I don't think Dems will convince this country their supposed "quid pro quo" is even close to worthy of impeachment. I think Nancy recognizes this and we're already well on our way to a new impeachment narrative - exactly as the roving narrative during the Mueller investigation. Give it a couple weeks or less, and the new narrative will become apparent. Obstruction and a revisit of the Mueller report (should that be the new narrative) will be a serious flop, IMO.

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Annie Deighnaugh

WTG, in addition to the ellipses, there are a couple of ways we know that the notes of the call are incomplete:

a) Vindman said he was on the call, was one of the people who's comments on the call should have been placed in the official record, but his recommendations were ignored.

WASHINGTON — Lt. Col. Alexander S. Vindman, the top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council, told House impeachment investigators on Tuesday that the White House transcript of a July call between President Trump and Ukraine’s president omitted crucial words and phrases, and that his attempts to include them failed, according to three people familiar with the testimony.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/29/us/politics/alexander-vindman-trump-ukraine.html

b) If you read the notes on the call you will see zelensky says this:

"specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue."

In the call notes, there was *no* mention of *any* company. So we know that these notes are incomplete. In fact, one of the changes that Vindman tried to make was to add 'Barisma' to the phone notes but it never happened. We don't know what else was left out. But if the voice recording of a transcriber exists, then that should be released....after all, according to trump himself, this phone call was 'perfect'. So let's hear all this perfection!