Jerrod - No, the installers didn't level them well. I did with a friend of mine, which took quite a while because they are on a garage floor (concrete) that is sloped. I even said something about that to them before they left.

C J - When I had my old Miele washer and dryer installed in 2003, I believe it was a Miele tech who installed them. They were always fine. These probably don't really have to be ripped out, but I paid for new machines with high-end installation, and I told them I don't want these, even if they steeply discount them. I want what I paid for. I'd never really trust these now that I've seen how they were manhandled. They are sending their most senior installers to install the replacement ones, and the head of their installation department is coming with them. I've told him that everything must be done exactly right or I will not take them. It's a crying shame, really. Everybody loses in this scenario. The installers were nice, but they simply were not trained well. Miele has told me these machines are never supposed to be turned upside down.

So sorry. That is just sloppy work. I would be upset too. The instructions are pretty clear and I remember my Miele came with various warning labels from the factory saying what/what not to do. The installers should know better. There’s no excuse they could have read the owners manual or observed the warnings on all the stickers they had to have removed?

It was stressful, I assure you. They had those machines off the truck and were manhandling them and turning them upside down before I knew what was going on. The guys weren't bad guys. This was just a failure of training. They had not been trained on how to handle these machines. It's a huge waste (of the machines, of my time, of the company's time, of the installers' time, etc.).

I just bought new washer and dryer for an old house (built 1984) I bought that didn't have any. It had the same problem of washer hookup on the right of the dryer, which means the doors open back to back instead of facing each other. The only front-loading units sold in the US this year (2019) with doors designed to be reversed is an Electrolux model. One plumber told me he could reverse doors on many brands, but I wouldn't trust that unless the manufacturer specified that the model doors can be reversed. So I bought the electrolux set. Its cheaper than moving plumbing around, or having pump stress with a drain hose too long. Not too impressed with them, but nothing on the market now that is much better, based on customer reviews.

Hi Gail - I was able to put the washer on the left with my connections on the right and the standard Miele hoses fit. Because the dryer doesn't use a vent now, there was no problem there. Were the connections in your house so far apart that this wouldn't work? I'd have moved the connections over, if need be. Miele makes an optional 8.5' and 12' drain hose, so I'm guessing you could have kept your drain where it was. There are many different lengths of water supply hoses (up to at least 12').

Hi Jim, the cost of the ventless Miele Dryer and front loader washer was a lot higher than the Electrolux. The dryer vent and 220 outlet is on the left, and space is at a premium, that is also a half bath. In order to snug the units up close to the wall, I actually moved the dryer vent so that it lines up with the dryer so I didn't have to use a big exhaust hose behind the dryer. that saved about 4-5 " of floor space. I could not move the vent to the right side due to the plumbing. The Miele ventless option was intriguing, but that technology was new to me, and reviews are not all positive. (I did buy their dishwasher and I am very disappointed with that....mostly I hand wash dishes now). Reversing doors on the units was free, it was done at installation.

i have had the Miele units for about a year and love them. They are located on an interior wall of a condo. Got rid of the vent connection (which was low tech at best) and quieted down the whole process. We had a GE unit (the 1000 $ variety all in one)

the heat pump technology has been around for a while (at least inEurope) and works fine

btw - if you are having issues with the DW, it is unusual

delray33483 - Issues with the DW? What is a "DW"?

DW - dishwasher

delray33483 - Out of curiosity (and not criticism), why did you mention a dishwasher? This is about a Miele washer and dryer.

Out of curiosity (and not criticism), why did you mention a dishwasher? This is about a Miele washer and dryer.

@Jim Daniels: @delray33483 was responding to this comment by @Gail McNaughton “(I did buy their dishwasher and I am very disappointed with that....mostly I hand wash dishes now).”

@Gail McNaughton: What’s wrong with your dishwasher? If you start a thread in appliances , there are lots of folks (including me) with Miele dws who would be happy to help you with yours!

Sammy, Apologies, I was not clear on why I dropped the DW into the thread...At first I was responding to the initial Post about water hook-ups and drain being on left vs right. One problem that placement creates is the dryer and washer doors may open back-to-back instead of the more convenient facing each other. Since the Miele washers currently available don't have the door reversal feature, which is a cheaper fix than buying extra long water/drain hoses, or moving all the plumbing in the (interior) wall, I was just commenting on that plumbing location that was mentioned in the initial post. then later I responded to Jim's comment about longer hoses being an easy fix. It wasn't, given the priorities - very tight space, cost overruns on total house project. I just left out a lot about why I was commenting at all, in trying to be brief. The DW comment was just an aside, it was one of the reasons was giving for why I ended up with no Miele W/D: costs of units, unable to reverse doors, ventless option new TO ME, and bad experience with another new appliance in their complete line. Jim Daniels, feel free to delete all my comments as irrelevant (they probably are), I just brought up the door-reversal because the way the doors open is a main issue, with respect to left or right placement of the W and D and plumbing.

Jim. Please give us an update. Did your replacement machines arrive?

Hi Jerrod - Yes, they came two days ago. This time the guys did everything right, although I actually had to give them a couple of small pointers about how to do things easier (that I'd seen on YouTube). The one warning I will emphasize the most is that the pedestal/plinth installation is NOT simple. It is rather involved, and easily adds an hour or more to the installation time. Each pedestal attaches to its machine differently. The machines should be on their side during this, and never on their back, front or top. It's a crying shame that the first team damaged the first set. Installation is KEY on these machines. I love the machines. I hated the hassles involved. One more thing: if you see the installers try to use a set of channel lock pliers (or any pliers), stop them immediately. The necessary tools come with the machines and pliers have NO PLACE in the installation process.

That's great Jim. Glad the machines got installed correctly. Mine is on a plinth and it was installed while the machine was on its side too. The next time you run a Normal cycle please tell me what spin speeds you have a choice of. Thanks.

Hi Jerrod - I looked, and the only options I have for spin speed when using the Normal cycle are 1600, 0 and the symbol (that I think looks like a laundry sink about 3/4 full of water) that indicates having the machine stop without any spin cycle and leave the clothes sitting in water (to avoid wrinkles) until you get home and tell it to resume operation, at which time it will drain and spin.

I know that I said that with the first machine I started the calibration cycle and reduced the spin speed. I still remember reducing the spin speed (I said to medium). However, that was a different machine. Maybe there's some chance that that was an option on that particular machine (though that seems doubtful), or maybe it was also an option just for that initial calibration cycle (also seems unlikely). Perhaps I just remembered things wrong, but I would swear that I distinctly remember adjusting the spin speed. It was a particular concern of mine at that point because I did not believe the installers had leveled the washer properly (which they had not).

Jim, don't worry about it. It IS possible that the extra spin speeds were available before the configuration program was run. Part of what that program does is to configure the machine to your water temperatures so it can get an accurate estimate of the time remaining and things like that. I was just asking because I thought there was a possibility that the machine had updated software. I don't use the Normal cycle anyway so I don't know why I cared but I did want to update my machine if one was available.

You don't use the normal cycle? What do you use for basic things like t-shirts or dishcloths? I'm going to post another thread about the options available under different cycles using the Miele@mobile app (I have found that you have more options using the app).

You should set your washer to display the maximum weights per cycle. Which is going to be Kg if you’re okay with that. You can only max load it (8Kg) on the normal / Extra white / Sanitize.

My thing is with TwinDos on trying to use the last of it. I hate leaving that last bit in the cartridge so I use a siphon and I try to extract and then pump it into the new cartridge. Does anyone else do this or am I just odd? :D

Hi Steve - Why do you mention the maximum weights? I don't think I follow what you're saying.

I think the max weights really apply if you are using Delicates, or darks, pillows and things like that. The drum is large enough to hold 18 pounds, but you might not get the best performance in some programs if you washed that much. Think about using softsteam with 18 pounds - not going to be the best at helping wrinkles. Or think about washing 18 pounds of delicates or using wrinkle Free- not the best way to take care of them.

Jim, you asked what I use instead of the Normal cycle. Here’s what I do:

For T-shirts, underwear, dishcloths, basic cotton items, and cotton/poly comforters I use the Baby Clothes Program which uses the entire range of temperatures and spin speeds. I like it much better than the Normal program plus I do not want to spin everything I have at 1600 RPMs. Baby Clothes cycle defaults to 3 rinses, add an extra rinse and you get 4, and I think it is a bit more aggressive than Normal. It does not have limits on water levels or heating like the Normal Program which is the cycle used for energy ratings. I wear white underwear so I alternate washing them between Extra White and Baby Clothes.

For sheets, I use the Table Linens program, which also defaults to 3 rinses. I figure sheets are kinda the same as a tablecloth and this program does a very good job with them.

I have white cotton hand towels that I use in the kitchen instead of paper towels. For these, I use the Sanitize program which removes even days old tomato sauce and whatever else gets on my hands.

I wash denim and darks in the Darks program, using a detergent for darks, and I wash dress shirts or special shirts in the Dress Shirts program. I follow with the Softsteam option.

I use Singlewash because I can get an extra rinse out of it while Express won’t allow that. I don't know if using Express from the app will allow an extra rinse or not.

I like Quickintense for items that have average soil and I use it frequently for cotton items.

I use the Sports Wear program for fleece pullovers and for gym clothes. I have washed pillows in the Pillow program and they turned out well.

I have the Miele phone app. So far I have not used it to start a program, but after I start the program at the machine I open the app and can see the progress the machine makes as it moves through the program. It also sends a message to the phone when the load has completed which is nice.

Hi Jerrod - Thank you for all of that information. I really like the idea of extra rinses, and I don't like the idea of the government dictating how much water I can to wash my laundry.

How did you figure out all of the information about how many rinse cycles each program uses? And water levels, water temperatures, etc.? For instance, you mentioned that baby clothes cycle defaults to three rinses and uses the entire range of temperatures. I wouldn't know where to find that information.

You also mention it does not have limits on water levels. But how do you take advantage of that? I mean, do you somehow set the water level manually? If so, how? Thanks!

Agree with Jerrod, using same cycles for my different items. Baby clothes cycle with the multiple rinses is my go to replacement for normal. Haven't used the normal cycle in a long time (in addition to limited options on Normal, you will also notice that anti-crease doesn't work in the normal cycle when the wash is finished and you can't select less than 1600rpm). A few items I would immediately recommend, check your Twindos levels for suds and immediately adjust the level down if you notice suds in final rinse or after final spin. Unfortunately for a lot of us in NA who are not on hard water, the recommended dosage is way too high and you will see suds in the final rinse. The other item is to go into More Programs > Settings > and enable 'Max Rinse Level' so the water level is raised 'for anyone with allergies'.

Jim,

I knew about the Normal cycle because several years ago I read the Energy requirements manufacturers must use to be Energy Star rated. Among the requirements, it states that the cycle that is used for Energy ratings must be named Normal. Up until that time, there was no such cycle named Normal. Now we have it on Dryers, Washers, and Dishwashers.

I read the manual closely before I bought the machine and in the Normal cycle description, and it even mentions that it conforms to a DOE regulation.

When the machine was delivered I tried almost every program on the machine for the first month I had it. From that, I discovered the ones I want to use. Because my machine empties into a laundry sink, I captured the water from the Normal cycle and Baby clothes washes and rinses and I could see the difference in levels. You don’t have to do anything to get more water just run the programs and they fill with more.

I’ve had allergies and rashes from detergent before so I went into the settings and enabled Max Rinse Level which is there for people with allergies. I used that for a while and decided that I like to have 3 rinses with spins between instead of 2 rinses with Max rinse level. I still use Max Rinse Level when I wash bulky items like comforters.

I have a device called a Kill-o-watt. You plug it into your electric socket, then plug a device into it. You can set it to display the amount of amps, watts, or volts, being currently consumed. When I used the washer, I could see when the heater was on and off by looking at the increase in watts consumed. I also learned to tell the click sound that occurs when the heater cycles on and off.

"Jerrod: I knew about the Normal cycle because several years ago I read the
Energy requirements manufacturers must use to be Energy Star rated.
Among the requirements, it states that the cycle that is used for Energy
ratings must be named Normal. Up until that time, there was no such
cycle named Normal."

Many washing machines had a designated Normal cycle in the 1950s and forward. Our 1962 Whirlpool toploader had two cycles ... labeled Normal and Gentle. The 1976 that replaced it had Normal, Gentle, Permanent Press, and Knits.

Hi Jerrod - Thanks for that detailed description!

You said:

"I’ve had allergies and rashes from detergent before so I went into the settings and enabled Max Rinse Level which is there for people with allergies. I used that for a while and decided that I like to have 3 rinses with spins between instead of 2 rinses with Max rinse level. I still use Max Rinse Level when I wash bulky items like comforters."

I thought once you enable the maximum rinse level, it applied to all programs. But it sounds like you're saying you chose the multiple rinses and spins of the baby clothes cycle instead of the maximum rinse. Is it a choice of one or the other?

Sorry if I confused you with that statement. Yes, Maximum rinse level applies to all programs, except that if you use the Normal program you will still get a bit less than with other programs and at least if you do 3 rinses, the last rinse will be of regular water level, not max. I don't know if the last rinse is less if you only do 2 rinses because I have never tried doing only 2 rinses.

For some loads, I will still use Max rinse level and do 3 rinses, such as with bulky items or items that I know tend to hold onto detergent. For other loads, I will use the regular fill level and do 3 rinses. The thing I am interested in is getting what I consider to be an adequate rinse and since I can see the rinse water I tend to know when that is occurring.

Not encouraging wasting water, but I don't want to have health issues either.

@Jim Daniels Miele is fond of stating laundry load limits by weight. The washer‘s maximum capacity is 8 kg. Must never be exceeded in any circumstance. And then for specific washes the actual weights are lower for example it’s 3 kg maximum weight for delicate cycle single item wash is 1 kg maximum and so on. You can set the display to show these weight limits when you select a cycle. For reference 1 kg = 2.2 pounds. Weight=Dry laundry weight. To activate go to more programs/settings/program info/. Choose program and max load. The washer will now display the dry laundry weight limits for the wash program.

@Jerrod There must be more ways to control things like the number of rinses than I am aware of. I know you can add an extra rinse under Options sometimes, but it sounds like you have a way to choose between two an three rinses. Or maybe this is based on the wash cycle you have chosen? I have a lot to learn.

When you do the regular fill level and do 3 rinses, do you mean you're going in and turning off the max rinse level temporarily?

I'm not worried about wasting water. Like you, I can be sensitive to detergent. I tore all of my landscaping out and now have a zero-water landscape. I figure we all prioritize what is important to us.

I don't think there is any way to control how many maximum rinses you can do. The only thing I did was find programs on the machine that were programmed to give 3 rinses by the Manufacturer, so yes it is based on the wash cycle you chose.

So far I am ok with doing 3 rinses and I turn max rinse level on in the settings when I think I need to have it for some loads. As for energy savings I have been using Miele front loaders since 2002 and I have a gas whole house tankless water heater so that has kept my energy usages low. I still need a washer that can maintain water temperatures because the washer is in an unheated space and a bit far from the water heater.

I think the best thing people can do when buying appliances is to read the entire owner's manual before you purchase so you will know what you are really getting and then after you get the appliance to try every option available so that you know how everything works.

You said you are going to make a post about using the app so I am sure that will help us all. So far I just use it to check the progress of the machine after it is started, but the app is updated every few weeks. With the last update, it is now displaying the water usage in gallons instead of liters. I have actually gotten used to the liters. I guess no one remembers that the USA was supposed to be moving to the metric system years ago.

@Jerrod Did you find which programs give three rinses by observing those cycles running, or is that information somewhere in the manual?

Are you saying that the W1 does not maintain temperatures during the wash? I think I heard that the old 220v machines, like the ones I had, do that, but I guess not the W1?

I think most people never read the manual at all (maybe a few things at the beginning just to figure out how to do basic stuff). I suspect most people throw clothes in, wash them on normal (maybe with some options) and that's it unless they're washing clothes with special instructions (like hand wash, etc.).

@Jerrod Okay, thanks. It sounds like you determined the rinse cycles by watching the machine drain, spin, add more water, then drain and spin again, and so on?

I agree about not using one program, especially now that you've helped me figure out the different programs and highlighted their importance.

In your tests, what is the range you've seen as far as the water used in different programs (in total), and during rinse cycles? Thanks!

DADOES: Thanks for correcting me. There were program cycles named Normal, light soil, Perm Press and so forth. Back then though manufacturers were not mandated to have a cycle named Normal and told that it had to conform to energy standards. My old Miele used fabric types for program names. It had Cotton, silk, Perm Press, Jeans, etc... The W1 sold in other parts of the world uses the word Cotton instead of Normal. I think what Miele did was to take the Cotton cycle, reprogram it meet energy standards and name it Normal. I can tell this because the W1 owner's manual has program cycle charts and one of them is using the word Cotton for the Normal program. I guess they overlooked the occurrence of the word in that chart when editing the manual.

JIM: I no longer have the list of programs and water usage that I made from the runs I tested since that was done in February of this year, but there is an easy way you can tell how much water you are using in each program. If you have the app, simply look at it after the water is finished filling for the wash; It will show the amount of water used, record that amount. After the first rinse water is in, look at the app again. It will show increased water consumed. Just subtract that number from the amount of water used in the wash and you will have the amount of water used in that rinse. You can continue for each rinse until the end and you will have the total amount of water used for the entire run. Each run you make will vary somewhat due to the number of clothes you have in the machine.

@Jim Daniels, would you be willing to disclose the retailer from whom you purchased your machines? If you'd prefer not to post it in this thread, you should be able to PM me, since I'm now following you on Houzz.

@John I bought them from the Home Depot Design Center. I guess there is only one of these in anywhere right now, but there should be more of them in the future. They did correct the mistake, but it was an awful lot of stress and hassle. In the end, all I really took away from this is that you insist on Miele certified installers, and that, even then, you watch how they do things. Also, if I hadn't bought the bases (drawer pedestals) with the machines, I think everything would have gone fine (though they didn't level the machines the first time, so that would have been a problem with or without the bases).

@Jim Daniels, ah, thanks, wasn't aware that HD was looking at moving up the food chain.

FWIW, had an interesting chat this morning with Miele support. As in your case, the seller's installers flipped my W1 washer upside down attempting to install the pedestal, and failed. Pretty clear it was the first time they'd ever worked with one. However, in my case it was complicated by some rain that came through while they were working on it. Miele suspects that this *may* have compromised the electronics in the washer and won't warranty it. So now I'm working on getting it replaced by the seller. As someone else has noted, flipping the dryer upside down would break it immediately, with probably no fix possible.

My takeaway is that Miele will be disinclined to support any Miele-certified installation that doesn't go strictly by the book. Maybe a word of advice for anyone purchasing Miele applicances is to collect as much photographic and other documentation (evidence) as possible to ensure a happy outcome. Frankly, it probably goes for any manufacturer's appliances, as they become too expensive to work on, and replacement cost is going to be high -- for *someone*.

@John Actually, the installers did flip the first dryer upside down to put the pedestal on it, and it still functioned afterward (though I feared some damage may have been done flipping it upside down). I wouldn't want one that was flipped upside down, but it doesn't necessarily break it. Who said flipping the dryer upside down would break it immediately?

Sorry to hear about your problems with your washer. Where did you buy it? I would dispute the charge with your credit card company if you purchased it with a credit card. I would demand a new machine, no exceptions.

I bought a five year extended warranty with my washer and dryer (the same one Home Depot offers in their regular stores). The Home Depot Design Center is somewhat like their old Home Depot Expo stores, but it is all about remodeling and appliances. You can't go in there and buy something and take it with you right then.

@Jim Daniels, jwvideo up above suggested that Miele dryers may have the same issues as refrigerators getting flipped upside down, given the similarities between how they operate. The Miele rep pretty much confirmed this -- she was alarmed enough that the washer had been flipped and was very concerned about the dryer, which can be permanently damaged, apparently. Luckily the installers didn't unpack my dryer, much less flip it.

"I would dispute the charge with your credit card company if you purchased it with a credit card. I would demand a new machine, no exceptions."

Oh, of course. That's why God made credit card disputes, the Better Business Bureau, Yelp/Google, and small claims court.

@John Oh, okay. Yes, I'm aware of that situation. However, with refrigerators, sometimes people have to turn them on their sides. The suggested course of action to that is that they be left right-side up and unused for as long as they were on their side before they use them. That's what I did with the dryer. However, I don't know if the same works when something has been upside down. In my experience, it did. I waited over 24 hours to use the first dryer (the T1 that the installers turned upside down and that I ultimately returned). Still, it should not be done and it was enough of a concern that I demanded a new one.

I have won credit card disputes before. It was time consuming. Hopefully you won't have to go through that. Where did you buy your machines?

@Jim Daniels, I'd rather not disclose the retailer publicly at this time, but it is one in California. I'll keep this thread posted on the outcome of this little adventure.

@John Oh, I see. You were probably wondering if we went to the same place. Just for general information, is it a local outfit, or somewhere a lot of people across the state or country might end up? Did they say they have Miele-certified installers? If they do, Miele really should stand behind the install. I know that another local place quoted me $250 for the installation with their Miele-certified installers. I thought that to be too high at the time, but now I understand. With the pedestal installation, the install should really take two men about two hours. And when they quote that, they're quoting for jobs that could include stairs or complicated cabinet installations.

@Jim Daniels, they're regional. And their associated installers who install Miele appliances are Miele-certified, they say. I won't quite say I'm skeptical...more like unconvinced.

I would tell Miele that. If they are Miele-certified, that means Miele is putting their stamp of approval on them. Legally that creates an agency situation in which they are agents of Miele, and Miele is therefor responsible for their actions. I would be back on the phone with Miele right away demanding to speak to someone higher up. They can't certify installers and then say, "Well, they did it wrong so we're not honoring the warranty." All of this is, of course, only if they are actually Miele-certified. Miele may not understand the legal doctrine of agency in this country (I don't know if it's the same in Germany), but they are nonetheless subject to it when they do business here.

You can go to the Miele web site and search for authorized installers. If the place you bought your unit from is listed, then Miele recognizes them as authorized.

Not so sure about that. @Jim Daniels's Home Depot Design Center (I believe the only one is in San Diego County) doesn't come up on the search at Miele's site. Could it be that most if not all the retailers contract separately with certified installers in their areas, rather than pay to train their own employees, since they'd be attractively poachable by competitors?

@John The Home Depot Design Center's installers are not certified, though they plan to be soon. The woman I spoke to on the phone told me they were, but, when I went in and spoke to the manager I bought from, he said they weren't and there was confusion about that because they had been certified until certain changes to the corporate structure at HDDC were finished and now they need to reapply, or something like that. So I knew they weren't certified, but thought they were as good as certified. That's why I got the five year extended warranty (because the lack of the Miele-certified installers meant that Miele would not double my warranty through them to 2 years (which they do when Miele-certified installers are used. And, yes, I think what you say about third-party installers might be correct. I know that HDDC has their own installers, which they tout, and I was impressed by that (but not so much now). The second set of installers they sent with the replacement machines were very good.

Thank you Jim Daniels and also Jarrod for posting all this information. This is most informative. And Jim did you ever do the spread sheet with all the programs? I'd be interested as I am almost ready to purchase.

Chris