What do you do when the laws don't work?

rikki_t

I'm feeling more and more discouraged. We are a nation of laws, but the laws don't work with this *president or administration. They just ignore them, do whatever they want, and dare anyone to try to stop them. They have literally turned the US into a dictatorship right before our eyes, and we are seemingly helpless to stop them. They aren't going to let anyone defeat them in 2020, no matter what they have to do. If, by some miracle, they are defeated, they will all just refuse to leave.

I lived through Viet Nam, Watergate and the lawless and cruel Reagan administration (remember criminal AG Ed Meese, who Trump just gave a Presidential Medal of Honor?) and I never felt hopeless. I feel hopeless now, and terrified about where this will all end up.

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

It does seem dire, the gop has to get it's act together to stop their Trumpinstein.....my back up plan - it's a good time to be old.

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rikki_t

My backup plan is to leave the country if there is even the smallest chance he will be re-elected. If he is, he'll be completely unleashed, and SS & social services are on the cutting block. He'll be in full revenge mode against any and every democratic program as payback for impeachment. Even Steve Bannon said this and Cohen said he will never leave the White House.

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Delilah66

It does seem dark. My friend, a retired Army colonel, confirmed the military would support the Constitution, but I wonder how the military would even get started along that line. What is the catalyst? Will the military “file” first have to defeat the “rank”?

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catkinZ8a

Bye.

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maifleur01

I hope people realize that once enough people who objected to what is being done are gone either by death or leave the country there will always need to be a target. It is easy to be a target in countries where people have fled or died because of their beliefs.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I'm getting increasingly hopeful in that more people are realizing how criminal trump's behavior is. I see the tide of public opinion turning, and as it turns, so will the gop and then trump will lose his base and tumble down like the humpty trumpty he is.

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jama7(6)

THIS

it's a good time to be old.


That's my thought every, single day. If we didn't have certain things going on, we'd probably be in Europe already. But we've even talked about just spending the max time there allowed. I don't suppose that's a good thing if over 60% of the country were to leave! :( THEN they'd def get their dictatorship. I hope the younger ones are in for a fight because it wouldn't appear the GOP is going back to pre-Trump days.

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jama7(6)

Annie Deighnaugh

I'm getting increasingly hopeful in that more people are realizing how criminal trump's behavior is. I see the tide of public opinion turning, and as it turns, so will the gop and then trump will lose his base and tumble down like the humpty trumpty he is.

Annie, I hope you're right. But this country seems to spin on a dime. Approval of Trump (or any POTUS) is always shifting for minor reasons...or seemingly none at all. One day it's 38% (his core) the next it rises to 43% if he didn't poop his pants in the Rose Garden.

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lurker111

It never hurts to dream. :)

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jerzeegirl(9b)

I feel exactly the same as the OP. Our Constitution isn't ironclad as we all thought. All it takes is one dictator to defy it and his henchmen in the cabinet and in congress to back him up. I feel as if we are in dire straits. I also am depressed that all those civics lessons we learned at school about the Constitution are going up in smoke.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I think it's time to bring back the concept of the silent majority...those who recognize that this is a nation of laws and that no one is above the law, no matter how many times some might say it's so.

I think what we're seeing is an awakening of the silent majority...those who have now reached that bridge too far.

And like a snowball rolling downhill, it will gather more momentum and will grow larger as more and more people speak up.

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linaria_gw(zone 7 (about))

paraphrasing here (supposedly A. Einstein)

the world (substitute with -USA...) is not threatened by evil persons but by those just standing by and letting it happen...


so, yes, makes you wonder. all the more important that all those different law suits keep going, despite all the denial and "extra rules" or the "need for an improved constitution"


rEpups have a lot to answer for, paying a high price for their moment of power

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Annie Deighnaugh

The gop does have a lot to answer for...but they never seem to...

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linaria_gw(zone 7 (about))

so, Annie, would it not rather be a commenting or protesting majority that`s needed now?


cause, most of the bad stuff and rule breaking could happen because too many (especially in the "Trump party") kept their mouth shut

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lurker111

Laws work. That's why Pelosi is freaking out. Hillary has just been lucky because she had her partners in crime investigating her. BTW, the 30,000 emails is really over 300,000 emails. Get ready.

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linaria_gw(zone 7 (about))

aaand there we go:

BUuuuuuT Hillaryyyyyyyyyy


so reassuring that some things work like clock work

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Delilah66

They do answer, but the answers are full of lies and deflection and signify nothing, to paraphrase Shakespeare.

Pelosi freaking out? Someone’s hallucinating.

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Kathy

Obsessing over Hillary’s emails is nothing more than fake outrage when Trump and most of DC use private servers.

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JodiK

And if anyone thinks the law doesn't work only at the top level of our power structure, they haven't been following along with the common man - or woman - and the struggles that go on daily with those who are - or were at one time - sworn to protect and serve us.


That's right... we live in a police state, where the actual laws on the books don't matter, and corruption and brutality and rife within the blue ranks. Our basic rights no longer apply, and even with police wearing body cameras - which seem to malfunction an awful lot - and footage shot from just about every angle... whether from traffic, store, personal cell phone or other camera, the idea is that the police confiscate that footage so it's their word against ours.

Persons are quire regularly brutalized, beat, tased, and even shot - often to death with more shots fired than necessary.


Warrants are too often served at incorrect addresses, where the homes' occupants are harmed in the process... which never should have taken place to begin with.

Police regularly hassle the homeless population, peaceful protesters, set up illegal roadblocks to check ID and citizenship a hundred miles or more from any international border, and regularly arrest average citizens for exercising their Constitutional rights.


This is not to say that all police officers are bent, but a goodly portion do not pass the smell test. Many are not even aware that the average person has rights and freedoms, and is not required to show identification unless they are in the commission of a crime, or are suspected of committing a crime - with probable cause shown. Many officers think it's their right to shoot first and ask questions later, or use their badges against those of other races or social classes.


Revenue gathering and filling beds of privately owned prisons has become the job. And it's not just Officer Friendly on the street who bends and often breaks the laws... it's also their superiors, and the judges, and the prosecutors, etc.


It's sad when our only recourse is to sue the police department for wrongful arrest or another illegality, and force the taxpayers to cover the bill. Meanwhile, the officers who caused this monetary loss for the city are given a simple slap on the wrist and returned to duty.


If we don't start standing up for our Constitutional rights, we soon won't have any of those rights.


And if you think I'm wrong, just take a gander at what's happening out there in our country, state by state, county by county, etc. The film, the audio, and the witnesses are many... and there is no excuse for the ways in which our police forces are treating us, the people.

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adoptedbyhounds

"I think it's time to bring back the concept of the silent majority...those who recognize that this is a nation of laws and that no one is above the law, no matter how many times some might say it's so."

Good news, Annie. The silent majority has been with us all along. It just didn't have anyone in either party willing to stand up for it, until Donald Trump promised to put America and Americans First.

Those good folks are not so silent these days. Technology allows everyone to share conversations and opinions in ways that weren't possible a few decades ago. You're right that these ordinary Americans recognize that we are a nation of laws. As one would expect, they support securing our borders, deporting criminal aliens, and want accountability whether the accused mishandled classified government documents, or failed to reveal exculpatory material to a defendant. It's all good.

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JodiK

It's more than a little obvious that trump has put himself first, never mind the people.


His policies are harming more than just trade with other nations... he's breaking the backs of our farmers, those people who feed us and the rest of the world. And those are only two ways in which he's turned his back on us.


He's disenfranchised our allies... insulted other world leaders... lied and lied, over and over... and like a prepubescent child, he uses Twitter to show us how illiterate and ignorant he truly is.


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woodnymph2_gw

I share the same concerns as the OP. I have never in my long life been so afraid for the future of the America I grew up in. Trump is (among other things) destroying our democratic system of checks and balances. I increasingly am made aware of how deep the corruption in Washington is. Not just in the WH. It has, indeed, become a "deep state." For example, I would not trust Barr for any reason. I think he lies and deflects and serves his Master. The same for many of the Repubs in power.

I do not recall until now a President attempting to turn the American people against the Free Press or against those brave careerists in the FBI and CIA who are sworn to protect you and me. Trump is a would-be Emperor who lashes out at anyone he imagines disagrees with him. He would fit beautifully into the France of Louis XIV: "L'Etat, c'est Moi." Or as well, in Tzarist Russia. And we know how that all ended: bloody riots in the streets....

I would hope that we who are patriots are becoming watchdogs on our fading freedoms....

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roxanna7

Well-said, woodnymph. I totally agree.

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Annie Deighnaugh

abh I truly don't know how you tolerate the cognitive dissonance.

For example, we know trump has used unsecured phones, private servers, spilled code-level info to the russians, held open-air strategy meetings at mar-a-lago and is so untrustworthy with info that even ICE knows not to tell the president what they're doing:

The operation was so closely guarded that ICE officials did not even inform the White House before it began, according to Matthew Albence, the agency’s acting director, and other administration officials. Because previous plans for high-profile ICE raids had been disrupted by public disclosure — including tweets from President Trump telegraphing them — the agency this time stealthily streamed 600 agents to Mississippi, many flown from other parts of the country. Source WaPo

How that sits comfortably with:

and want accountability whether the accused mishandled classified government documents...

is beyond me. And that's just one example.

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blfenton

This isn't really a thread for me but I just want to agree with the OP's second comment about trumps revenge goal should he get re-elected in 2020.

He won't be doing any governing - it will be in full revenge mode against the Democratic Party and those areas represented by every Republican who is now making comments of non-support. He will engage in a verbal blood bath against the media, allies will become nonentities, he will make the justice system toothless as well as the House.

As an ally, that's what frightens me. Fortunately, at least we were at Normandy.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Things have been as bad or maybe worse? How about Senators drawing guns on each other on the Senate floor or beating each other with canes? Yellow press, politicians selected by tiny groups of rich men in back rooms. Corrupt administrations where everything was for sell, especially positions in government. We have been through it all. We survived McCarthyism which must have looked just as bad at the time. What do you do when your VP shoots and kills some one in an illegal duel? We even survived civil war and that is an accomplishment. I am counting on the fickle American public. They move on.

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cait1

And the dem controlled House is attempting to run roughshod over the Constitution.

Article 1 Section 2

The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.The Constitution cites the WHOLE House, not part of it. No where in the Constitution does it say, and one faction of the House of Representatives shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.

No.

It's the ENTIRE House. Nancy can't deny millions of people their representation because she doesn't like that their representatives have an 'R' after their names but because it suits a certain faction's intent, they're all for it.

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Iris GW

shall chuse their Speaker

That doesn't sound like an official version there ....

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Where does the constitution say that the decision to begin an impeachment inquiry must have the unanimous support of the house? (the WHOLE House would imply unanimity, wouldn’t it? Otherwise the people who are represented by the dissenting votes are somehow denied their representation?)

The constitution states that the House alone has impeachment power. Once the House exercises that power (which in itself does not require unanimity), it goes to trial in the senate.

The Constitution says nothing about how an impeachment inquiry is to be begun, nor that there even needs to be one.

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patriciae_gw(07)

It is that representative thing we have going. The Whole house votes for its leadership and that person, the one that gets the most votes, becomes Speaker of the house-the Voice of the house. At the moment that person is Nancy Pelosi. When you do not object to Mitch McConnell changing precedents and rules in the Senate (which he can as Majority Leader) then your complaints in the House ring hollow.

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whynottryit

Iris, it actually is chuse in the original.

Cait, if the Speaker were writing the Articles of Impeachment and sending them to the Senate by herself, I'd be right there with you screaming at the top of my lungs. But that's not what happened. She simply announced an inquiry to determine what, if any, charges would be made. Once evidence, through witnesses and documents, is gathered, the whole House will draft, debate, and vote yay or nay on Articles of Impeachment. They then go to the Senate for trial. You have to know this if you have done any independent research at all. It's obvious you know how.

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whynottryit

In response to the OP. The laws are working. We are seeing unprecedented obstinance from the WH but the system does work. It has worked three times before. Now is no different.

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Izzy Mn(4)

It's different when they refuse to testify and block everyone to.

When Trump is running a criminal enterprise from the White House and basically refuses and obstructs any testimony were do we draw the line? How do we get past the line? Go to supreme Court at every step? For how long could this get drawn out for? We may all be dead by the time things are resolved. That's what Trump the Puppet/criminal is counting on. Sounds like that's how he played the game in his personal businesses.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Actually cait, you're reading into it what isn't there...it just says the House shall have the sole power of impeachment...it says nothing and defines no rules or process around how they go about it...that's up to them to decide and they can decide differently in each case. It's up to them.

Sorry if you don't like the feeling of the gop being limited in the process...now you know how the dems have felt while the gop was running the house including writing legislation with no deliberation or discussion from the dems, forcing votes on major legislation without allowing time for it to even be read and refusing to bring legislation to the floor. As you sow, so shall you reap.

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woodnymph2_gw

I agree with Izzy's point. Trump and all his minions are stone-walling and will continue to do so. If everything must wait on a Supreme Court decision, when will this all end? Unless many more Republican congressmen find the courage to speak out loudly against Trumpian autocracy, I do not see any hope. Meanwhile time passes, the clock is ticking and Trump continues to flail wildly out of control, daily.

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whynottryit

The more he flails, the more he fails. Patience.

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HU9999

I completely understand the feelings in the OP. I felt the same way, but I do think things are finally starting to turn. More are either being silent and not defending him, or speaking out against what he's done. As more info comes out, more will also. He's done a lot of damage to the values this country was built on. I hope they can be repaired.

---

Trump fan logic:

When Congress is controlled by Democrats and does something they disapprove of, they are violating the constitution...they are shoving things down their throats.

When Congress is controlled by Republicans and Democrats are unhappy about something they did, elections have consequences.


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margaritadina

''

rikki_ton Wednesday
We are a
nation of laws, but the laws don't work with this *president or
administration. They just ignore them, do whatever they want, and dare
anyone to try to stop them.

''

What law of the land is followed when illegal aliens are encouraged by Dems to come to the US to be protected by sanctuary cities?


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jama7(6)

He's in meltdown. His "performance" last night with orgasmic interpretations and strident, nutsy screaming, swearing is not that of a POTUS but someone who needs his kids to take him NOW to an MD.

I think Trumpers have forgotten what a POTUS is supposed to look like. This is a TV entertainer with really bad taste.


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PRO
tapla(Mid-MI z-5b-6a)

To a spoiled child, any authority figure who doesn't give them exactly what they want seems like a dictator. Trump loves his country and cares for the people who live in it. Take your medicine. It's good for you. When you grow up, you'll understand.

Al

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whynottryit

When you fail as a businessman, you fail as a TV star, and you fail as a comedian, you run for President.

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blfenton

I don't have access to FOX news so can't watch his rallies - but is the bad language and swearing new for him? I don't remember it being mentioned before and usually the other channels will have excerpts from his rallies. But this time (Nicole Wallace maybe?) said that there was very little that could be shown on regular cable networks. Is this normal or something new for him.

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ubro(2a)

To a spoiled child, any authority figure who doesn't give them exactly what they want seems like a dictator. Trump loves his country and cares for the people who live in it. Take your medicine. It's good for you. When you grow up, you'll understand.

To a cult follower the dear leader does nothing wrong, citizens are not children needing a 'father'. Most of the citizens, as has been demonstrated multiple times, are way smarter than Trump.

That analogy shows how silly the republican view of society is, Daddy knows best, he will keep you safe from the big bad world out there. LOLOLOLOL. The only people who think that way are supporters of KJU, Xi, Putin, et al.

ETA, Hitler loved his country as well, does that justify his actions? Loving one's country means squat when you are using them to feather your nest.

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Annie Deighnaugh

This is a TV entertainer with really bad taste.

This is full blown WWE presidency.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E3-rP_dr-A

Everyone knows it's all fake and lies, but they all cheer...the louder the uglier the more violent the more cringe-inducing, the louder they cheer. And trump is the ring leader.

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