Everything Ukraine

Ann

I think a special investigator could stay busy taking a good look at Ukraine for years. Dems are (supposedly) starting impeachment proceedings of Trump over a phone conversation. I think we should open up everything Ukraine while we're at it. Of course, we have Hunter/Joe. But, we also have Nancy/Paul, Mitt/Cofer Black, Clinton/DNC, and also Obama (as Biden was delivering his boss's message to fire Shokin or forego a billion in loan guarantees). My goodness, how broad an investigation of everything Ukraine could and potentially should become!

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Iris GW

starting impeachment proceedings of Trump over a phone conversation

So, nothing in that phone call was of concern to you? Or, it might have caused a twinge of concern but not rising to the level of inappropriate behavior?

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Eat Well

You should take a few minutes to read the impeachment guide. It's filled with helpful facts.

https://impeachment.guide

What charges are being considered for President Trump?

Foreign Assistance in the Election

Extortion or Quid Pro Quo

Emoluments with respect to the Trump hotels

Coverup – Mishandling Records with respect to misuse of classified server

Coverup – Withholding Whistleblower Report

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Ziemia(6a)

Don't forget Condi and Pres Bush.

Or Herbst or Petreus.

Or, be grounded by nonpartisan experts.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

impeachment proceedings of Trump over a phone conversation.

This assertion has been made before, and the facts have been presented to correct this erroneous assumption -- by several individuals who have taken the time to respond.

And here comes the same erroneous recitation of the basis for the impeachment inquiry.

To filter out all facts not supporting an erroneous assumption is seriously handicapping oneself when discussing current events.

Who does this? And who wants to do this?





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barncatz


https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/10/06/putin-trump-zelensky-phone-call-229243

What Putin Got From the Trump- Zelensky Phone Call

The dirty, confusing, irregular conflict in Ukraine is part of a broader political war waged by the Kremlin. In countless ways, this is the inevitable evolution of Russia’s aggression against its neighbors after Putin paid so little price for invading Georgia in 2008.

This is the necessary context in which Americans should understand the gravity of President Donald Trump’s attempt to strong-arm Ukraine into becoming a subsidiary of his reelection campaign. ...

By embroiling Ukraine in scandal, by politicizing support of Ukraine among the American audience, by linking Ukraine to the conspiracy nexus that underlies all thinking in Trump world — and by minimizing the existential threat that Ukraine and Ukrainians face every day from the Russian assault on their nation — Trump is advancing core Kremlin objectives. ...

Every time Trump guts an institution, diverts money to his personality projects, labels an internal enemy, violates a norm, secures a job for a corrupt and unqualified appointee, ignores the law, asks a foreign leader to “do him a favor” — every time he breaks a rule and pays no price, he provides illustration for Putin’s expanding primer on “the hoax” of democracy and “the people.”...

Ukrainians have bled during a five-plus year war that they haven’t lost to Russia. They fight this war at the border of Europe to defend their democracy and the right to pursue a future of their choosing....

Ukrainians deserve American support — far less cynical American support — not because we decide this-or-that president or prime minister is a guy we like, but because the people of Ukraine have died to have what we have, and to become equal members of alliances that are the architecture of American prosperity, security and power in the world. Trump talks constantly about how none of our allies are paying enough for security. Well, the Ukrainians have paid. They’ve paid a lot.

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lurker111

Simple scam...Funnel tax payer money to a Ukrainian "billionaire" who donates to your "charity" and gives your kids a bogus job title. The cat is out of the bag and never going back.

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cattyles

Hope does spring eternal.

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Carro

Crowdstrike. 2016 election interference. How many millions has Ukraine given to the Clinton Foundation?

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Ziemia(6a)

Guess Durham and Barr are no longer enough for. TrumpFans.

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lurker111

It's been exposed. This explains the crazy eyes and desperation.

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barncatz

You've got it wrong, I fear. Ukraine did not force Trump to interfere with the Congressionally ordered, desparately needed military aid, nor did it then entrap him into the phone call in which he used the Oval Office phone to request a Biden investigation. Rick Perry forced him into that call.

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Carro

Weird take, barncatz. It's like you're projecting with your fingers crossed.

The call is out there. The jig is up. You can make 57 Heinz varieties of "whistelblowers" appear and it won't change the conversation.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The whistle blower introduced the conversation, and that is why we have protections for whistle blowers.

The ICIG reviewed the allegations, and found them credible. NB that the allegations encompass more than a single telephone call.

Now a second whistle blower has come forward.

And this makes Trump a victim -- pretzel logic.


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Eat Well

Let's review. From the website linked above.

What charges are being considered for President Trump?

Foreign Assistance in the Election

Extortion or Quid Pro Quo

Emoluments with respect to the Trump hotels

Coverup – Mishandling Records with respect to misuse of classified server

Coverup – Withholding Whistleblower Report

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Kathy

Giuliani making side deals with 2 Russian oligarchs and one in Boca Fl who belongs to Mar-Lago. They are big donors to Trump, GOP, and even Rudy. They want in on that Ukrainian gas.

Wouldn’t it be funny if Hunter Biden was their roadblock when he worked for Barisma? Just dreaming out loud.

Joe Biden and our allies were against Ukrainian corruption and Trump, Giuliani were setting up their own private back room deals?

I’m interested to see where Zelensky comes out on this. He has complied with Trump so far on some issues. That doesn’t speak well for him. He has a choice that is one sided. Trump or Putin. Two sides of the same ruble?

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Ann

"Joe Biden and our allies were against Ukrainian corruption and Trump, Giuliani were setting up their own private back room deals?"

:)


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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

The only corruption barr will run across overseas is discovering that his fellow repubs were involved with the wikileaks release of DNC emails the day after trump's "grab them by the pudicat" tape. You trumpsers want to find your "deep state", there it is, go fetch.

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Iris GW

The soapbox area of the newspaper had a Trump supporter mad because the whistleblower presumably wrote his/her report during work hours, being paid by the taxpayers to snitch on the president.

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chase_gw

No sense engaging with someone who is so totally emotionally invested in Trump.

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Ann

"No sense engaging with someone who is so totally emotionally invested in Trump."

Lol, again, total agreement on this!!!!!!

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chase_gw

Barr is free to start any investigation he wants to start and he isn't exactly part of the "deep state". If he isn't investigating it is for a reason.

I suggest one , or more, of four things are true depending on the issue

  1. He has looked at the issues and found no basis for an investigation.
  2. The issue has already been looked at and no wrong doing was found.
  3. The issue is currently being investigated.
  4. There is no issue .
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Ann

I haven't taken the time to go backwards to see what specific "investigation" you might be discussing, Chase. But, if it's a Hunter/Joe investigation, I read this morning that Graham is launching one (today, I think) in the Senate.

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chase_gw

I' m referring to all the issues you mention in your OP as being deserving of an investigation. Barr is free to launch any investigation he wants or appoint a special investigator... but he hasn't that I know of.

As far as Graham......fine if that's what he thinks is appropriate , I don't have issues with legitimate investigations , conducted by legitimate investigatory bodies...... but I still wonder why Barr hasn't.

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Ann

The point of my OP was to point out how many Ukraine happenings there really were or how many we'll eventually learn about, as they start to come out of the woodwork. I don't know which do or don't warrant investigation (or might even be under investigation currently), but a huge can of worms most certainly has been opened by Nancy's move toward impeachment.

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Iris GW

A huge can of worms for Trump ... and he appears to be throwing in a few of his own. What an idiot he is.

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Carro

Dirty dealings with Ukraine have been going on way long before Trump.

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Iris GW

He's just the one that got caught, I guess.

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Ann

Maybe Congress could actually do some work for the country. Now, that would be a novel concept! But, as long as the Dems only goal is to unseat Trump in ways beyond the traditional election method, that looks highly unlikely.

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Ann

"got caught" (referring to Trump, I assume) isn't what I'd call the mess Nancy has put herself in.

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Iris GW

I guess you're really only interested in Trump getting away with anything he wants. If you really believe in holding ALL people accountable for things they did, you'd let this investigation play out. And if it puts egg on the face of the Democrats, so much the better for you, right?

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Janie

Ann I think a special investigator could stay busy taking a good look at Ukraine for years

Be careful what you wish for. Trump’s corrupt actions are all over Ukraine.

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Kathy

Trump, Rudy and Russian oligarchs were working in Ukraine for gas companies contracts.

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Ann

Iris, I'm fine with the inquiry and impeachment process playing out. It needs to be a fair process where the House majority will not be the only ones with subpoena power, the president's legal team is involved in the inquiry proceedings, and it should play out in the open rather than behind closed doors. But, once an inquiry vote is taken and a fair process begins, I'm more than fine with it (speaking from a political point of view). I think Nancy's in a huge mess here and the more her mess is exposed, the better.

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Iris GW

It needs to be a fair process where the House majority will not be the only ones with subpoena power, the president's legal team is involved in the inquiry proceedings, and it should play out in the open rather than behind closed doors

My understanding is that they have very defined rules to follow, likely the same ones in place when the Republicans impeached Clinton.

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HU9999

Maybe Congress could actually do some work for the country. Now, that would be a novel concept! But, as long as the Dems only goal is to unseat Trump in ways beyond the traditional election method, that looks highly unlikely.

They are doing work for the country. There cannot be anything more important than Congress making sure the President does not abuse their power.

You clearly aren't paying attention to what "the country" wants with regards to the impeachment inquiry. I suggest you expand your news source to know what is really happening.

You still don't seem to understand The Constitution. Perhaps brush up on your middle school civics to catch up.

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Ann

Iris, if there were defined rules, I don't think there would be an argument over an inquiry vote, minority subpoena ability (for their own witnesses and info), etc. Transparent and equitable rules and procedures would be in place if the rules were adequately defined. I've heard, but haven't verified, that the Senate has very defined rules in the impeachment process. So, I don't believe there are defined rules in the House, which is why Nancy is traveling her own unique path and which is also why the GOP is questioning the validity of that path. I think the courts will need to lend a voice.

If you have a link to the specific defined rules you mentioned, that would be interesting to read.

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Ann

Iris, you also mentioned the Republicans impeaching Clinton. I think if that procedure was followed, there would not be this argument or disagreement.

I believe it was Richard Goodstein, yesterday on Fox News, who thinks Nancy will hold an inquiry vote next week. I think, if she does, that would move this process in the right direction and eliminate the need for the courts to become involved in the process questions.

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Carro

Ann, Democrats will get their witnesses and information when Republicans have parity. They might be the minority, but they're not incidental.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Transparent and equitable rules and procedures

What leads anyone to believe that the rules are not equitable? The House committees conduct hundreds of investigations. No objections except when it involves Trump?

I think the courts will need to lend a voice.

My understanding is that the US Constitution does not address the House procedures so what would the courts rule on?


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Ann

Nancy, potentially abuse of power on Pelosi and Schiff's part.

From Gregg Jarrett:

"President Trump was exercising a proper use of executive power, not abusing it. It is Pelosi and Schiff who are abusing the power of impeachment in their latest “witch hunt.”

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/gregg-jarrett-pelosi-schiff-impeach

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barncatz

Me:

Ukraine did not force Trump to interfere with the Congressionally ordered, desparately needed military aid, nor did it then entrap him into the phone call in which he used the Oval Office phone to request a Biden investigation. Rick Perry forced him into that call.

Carro:

Weird take, barncatz. It's like you're projecting with your fingers crossed.

The call is out there. The jig is up. You can make 57 Heinz varieties of "whistelblowers" appear and it won't change the conversation.

..............


WHOOSH, the bolded words were a joke, Carro. As in, isn't it ridiculous that Trump blamed Perry for making him call Zelensky? Your psychoanalysis of my remark and mindset is as goofy as Trump's toss of Perry under the bus.


As for your last sentence, I find your apparent analysis that the call exonerates your golden boy is on a par with your first.



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cattyles

Yeah, it’s getting worse, barncatz. I now believe in parallel universes.

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lurker111

The transcript is out. Game over for the left. Now it's our turn.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Yeah, it’s getting worse, barncatz. I now believe in parallel universes.

It's the string theory, trump has his supporters tied in knots around his little fingers.....but it's not just a "theory" anymore.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So the connections between Ukraine and Giuliani & Manafort going back many years, were all hunky-dory?

Need I point out that during those years Ukraine was under the control of proven corrupt leaders?

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elvis

Drain the swamp.

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Kathy


Get rid of Trump and most of the swamp will go with him.

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Ziemia(6a)

#1. The Transcript is not yet out. We don't even have the redacted transcript.

#2. Ryan and GOP established the House subpoena rules.

#3. Our country is much more than our political parties. Some government officials are Pubs and some are Dems and some are not. This is about country over party.

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Kathy

Ann, what makes you think Trump follows rules?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Pretty hard to drain that swamp when you're trying to feed whistleblowers to the alligators.

And it's commonly known the leaker in chief is the president.

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