Thanks. I will insist and see if I can get that.

The Carrier Infinity is locked into having to use proprietary controls to operate it. Those controls are costly and ultimately no way around that --- that I am aware of.

There are better cheaper options than this now. If you are looking for a higher end option that dehumidifies better you may want to take a look to see if there are any Bosch dealers in your area.

The Bosch may have as many as 50 stages. (It's a DC Inverter) In terms of performance I doubt there is anything that can come close. I hope to install mine within a few more weeks. Plan to make a video on it for the youtube channel.

The Bosch is a high end solution. For that reason it won't be suitable for everyone.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I purchase an Infinity series gas furnace and AC about 10 years ago for about what you are being quoted for Comfort equipment. I don't understand what is causing HVAC equipment prices to increase so much in price.

There are several Infinity models, you need to post the model numbers to understand what you are being quoted.

The Performance Series also has rebates. Here is the Carrier Spring 2019 rebates. The fall rebates should be similar. The rebates vary by region so these numbers may not be what is being offered by your dealer.

The furnace is 58cva110-1-20, coil cnpvp4821ala, condenser is 24vn9 ac. I unfortunately don’t have the model numbers of the comfort series. Ive requested a quote on the performance series—hopefully it is a happy medium.

The furnace is 80% efficiency 2 stage var speed with a 5 ton blower...about 90 KBTU....what size AC were you quoted? That condenser is high end variable. You will need Carrier's proprietary controller. They are quite pricey!...what size is existing furnace and what size home do you have?

TD

Hi! I live in DC metro area, NoVa, and we just had our A/C switched out two days ago. Like you we live in a split level house. We took 4 quotes

and eventually went with Costco and their sub F H Furr. Costco is/was having a sale of 15% off of all HVAC A/C, etc. We got a Lennox 16 Seer, Elite series A/C unit, changing out inside coil, new copper refrigerant line, new electrical wire, new electrical box, p trap for HVAC, and a Lennox PureAir S series whole house purification system. Financing was good as well: option A) 18 months 0% interest, or option B) 48 months slightly above 2% interest. The whole thing came to $ 6500. The only difference from you was that we didn't change out the the furnace and we had the air filtering system installed as an add on.

Our unit is 4 ton.

4 ton

frazzlehead - I just checked, Costco is having that deal all the way till the end of October. Ask the people giving you quotes to give you an itemized list and explain thoroughly were does the cost come from exactly.

for frazzle...it is a mistake purchasing HVAC from a big box store...what size home do you have, and what size is your existing furnace?....

TD

I guess NoVa is a pretty expensive area for HVAC. Either that or P-traps have shot up in price!

sktn77a - obviously p trap is not the major cost in this whole thing. However, the quotes from other places for the same line of work were all over the place. It's done now. If we overpaid, we overpaid. But other quotes we got were even worse.

It's the presence of federal government in this area that shoots up the price for all services.

The 58cva110-1-20 is a 110K BTU furnace. You must have a very large house or it is poorly insulated. I am skeptical why you would need such a large furnace for the DC area. You have been quoted the lowest end Infinity furnace with the highest end AC condenser.

I get the feeling this dealer is trying to put together a system that generates the largest Carrier rebate. In the end you may have over sized equipment and spending more money than necessary. Are there any other Carrier dealers in the area? If so get more quotes. Bryant sells the same equipment if you want another alternative, and often for a little less money. If that fails expand your search to more HVAC contractors. I would think there are many to choose from in your area.

Why not a high eff 95+ % eff furnace? Maybe an 80 K size with 4 ton rated blower?...still takes the proprietary expensive controller...this would be a fully communicating system, all the bells and whistles. Do you really need and want that?..

TD

If I go with the comfort series, will I truly regret it?

Unless you have a definite idea of how much longer you plan on living in this home, I would go no lower than the Performance systems. If I was you, I would get a Bryant dealer involved. other than cabinet badging, Bryant is identical to Carrier and usually less expensive. Ask about the Preferred series...Good Luck!

TD

For a variety of reasons we are stuck with the contractor. I think they are reliable, though. The explanation that I was given re 110k was that it would mostly run at 55k btu.

The comfort series condensers are noisy. They use a different compressor (I believe its from China - no brand name on ours) and have no sound blanket. The contactors on ours were both replaced (defective) within the first 2 years. They are built to a price point.

The performance series uses a Copeland scroll compressor with sound blanket and are much quieter. Pay no attention to the sound ratings in their respective spec sheets.

I've asked this question before but no answer...why an 80% eff furnace? And why the 110 size?. What is size of. your existing furnace? and what is size of your home? I am done here. Good Luck!

TD

CoolAir’s spam aside, I can report that the Infinity 2-stage condenser is so quiet that from my property standing 10 feet from my unity I can hear my next door neighbor’s far louder. The proprietary controls seem to function well to stage the compressor and adjust the air handler fan speed to keep the house very close to set point and manage the humidity. I can’t speak to the furnace because I have radiators for heat. If I had to do it again, I would want an inverter based system - either the Bosch condensers or a ducted mini-split system. Carrier also makes an inverter based compressor, but its specs didn’t seem all that impressive to me compared to other maker’s.

All national name brands of manufacturer's make an inverter based system.

Amana, American Standard, Trane, Lennox, Carrier all of these are the major names in the USA market.

The problem is all of them require proprietary controls for inverter based systems.

Inverter based systems are high end. If you are looking for a cheaper less efficient system an inverter based system is not going to fit into that requirement.

With that said, AFAIK currently all these manufacturers limit the inverter compressors to 5 speeds with the exception of the Trane inverter systems (American Standard is likely similar)

Trane / Am Standard will require proprietary controls to operate it. Repair parts when they do fail are costly.

Enter Bosch. This is a truly variable inverter, does not require any thing more than a single stage thermostat to control it. The con with Bosch is limited distributors. They are still growing so in time this should get better. They entered the Houston market just this year.

Amana: Things are changing with the introduction of Comfort Bridge Technology. Currently this tech is included in Gas furnaces. This technology controls the system without any need for proprietary controls. However, Amana based inverter system is limited to only 5 stages currently... even with the addition of comfort bridge technology.

So as you can see this is somewhat of a mixed bag. If you are in the high end market, you really have to look at 'everything'. Realize a proprietary control is required to make many of these types run. If the control is no longer made, it will be forced obsolescence... when your control fails. It will... they all break.

Comfort series will perhaps work, but...unless you get it sized right AND have the right conditions, you may well regret it. Performance was the way I was going, for all the reasons Mike and Tiger mention. I ended up with an excellently functioning Comfort system that is doing everything I want and is certainly quiet enough (outdoor unit is 5 feet from my master bedroom window...which is 4 feet from where I sleep.

However, if it wasn't for the fact that this house is sized between exactly correctly to slightly too large for a 5 ton unit, I would be having humidity problems. I honestly don't plan on doing a couple of efficiency updates because I don't want to reduce my run time excessively during my shoulder seasons. Communications with a trusted HVAC professional, experienced in the area and equipment is a must! If you are stuck with an HVAC contractor you don't have confidence in, you have a much bigger issue.

Thank you all for so much help and education. It made me realize how much there is to know. The HVAC company is one of the highest rated companies in our area, but despite coming out to the house, I suspect that everything proposed is oversized for the house (3k sq ft with two zones-2 furnaces and 2 ac; house is built in 1950s). I asked for a quote for a smaller btu system, and was told that would come out to the same price (don't understand how that could be). I was told that a 95% furnace requires a different chimney.

I finally have the comfort models--24accc442a003 condenser, cnpvp4221ala coil, and 58sb0a90e21--16 furnace. ($6700)

A performance condenser with the same furnace and coil is $7300. I am leaning toward this option because I don't think I can justify spending an extra $3k for the infinity system.

Thanks again for taking the time to give me feedback--Itruly appreciated it, though it made my head spin to realize how uneducated a consumer I am!

I’m confused...you’ve been quoted 110kbtu furnace for the performance series and 90kbtu for the comfort series? And two of them? If two of them, that’s an incredible amount of heat for 3k square feet. And at 8 tons combined an incredible amount of cooling.

Sorry I'm not being clear. The house has two furnaces and two air conditioners, but the quote is for replacing one furnace and one ac. How does one know if the system is the right size???

Typically you hire an engineer to do this. They calculate the heat gain and loss of each room based on the wall structure, insulation, windows, air leakage, shading, etc. Contractors generally don’t know how to do this or are unwilling to. Oversized equipment is in efficient and uncomfortable. An oversized furnace will cycle on and off rapidly, causing large temperature swings and shorten the lifespan of the equipment (as well as not burn efficiently). An oversized AC compressor will do the same thing, as well as not control humidity effectively, leaving you cold but damp.

DC has mild winters and hot humid summers. A 110k or 90k furnace should be enough for an entire 3000 square foot house in DC, and is likely huge for half of one. I would get an independent Manual J heat gain/loss calc and consider a modulating furnace. In Carrier’s line, that’s the Infinity 98. It adjusts the burner so that the heat output matches the heat loss from the house based on the outside temperature. This allows it to run constantly at just the right output, minimizing the discomfort of feeling the heat cycle on and off. If this is out of budget, they offer 2-stage furnaces in both the infinity and performance lines, which would provide some of that benefit.

Another option to consider is whether you need a furnace at all. Depending on your relative gas/electric rates, a heat pump (basically an AC compressor that reverses to move heat inside in winter) may be more cost effective.

Well, what size was the previous system and how happy were you with it’s performance. That’s a huge insight into the necessary size of a system. Ideally, the perfectly sized system would pretty much run continuously on the hottest and coldest days of the year. That’s not always possible , but you certainly want the system small enough that it runs enough during cooling season to dehumidify the house sufficiently. If humidity is too high, even a cool to cold house can feel uncomfortable. This is often caused by an oversized AC unit short cycling.

I am confused. It's important you are sized correctly. What is the size of the living area for the system you are looking to replace? I do not like the idea of mixing a Performance AC condenser with a comfort furnace. You want a matched AHRI system regardlsss of the level you purchase.

TD

Wow. It really sounds like it will be worth my while to hire an engineer to size this correctly. I have not actually lived in the house so I don't know how the older systems were performing--one furnace does not work and the other is 35 years old (paired ac is 20+ yrs). Any advice on how one finds such an engineer?

Additionally, I'm assuming it would probably not be smart to ask the HVAC company for a reference--should be completely independent? Does it need to be someone familiar with carrier equipment or is the end result that he/she will tell me what size system (tons and BTU)? Finally...any idea of cost? Less than a couple of hundred or more?

With the other units that old, I would expect that you should probably replace both sets together. Parts and supplies availability for the “other” unit is likely poor to nil, and a two at once plan might generate some savings.

Any engineer should be independent and paid by you, the customer, rather than a contractor.

Your strategy to hire someone to do a load calculation so you can tell your HVAC contractor that the equipment sizing is wrong is a bad strategy in my opinion. Finding someone who does load calculations is not easy. Even if you did, your contractor may use the smaller sizing as an excuse why your system is not operating properly in the future. The contractor has already told you that smaller equipment saves no money. This tells me he is not interested in changes of equipment sizing.

Lets recap what this contractor has proposed so far:

• Low end Comfort equipment
• Highest end Infinity equipment, but with an 80% efficiency furnace
• Performance condenser with a Comfort furnace
• Over sized equipment

In addition to this he stated a Performance model would cost about the same as Infinity equipment, but then gives a quote on a Performance condenser that drops the price by $3700. He also stated smaller equipment saves no money. For some reason he does not want to quote a 95%+ efficiency furnace.

For some unexplained reason you want to use this contractor only. That's your decision. However I suggest you get quotes from other contractors even if you have made your mind up on this contractor. Maybe there is another Carrier or Bryant dealer in the area so you can make an apples to apples comparison. Getting multiple quotes is the best way to become educated on HVAC equipment and installations.

Mike-really helpful and relatively "easy"--i will get a couple of other quotes and see if they converge on installation. And will see if I can get out of working with this company.

FYI, every single commercial and most large residential contacts have a separate person design and size an HVAC system from install it. And a clause in the contract says that if the installer installs it do design then the designer is liable for any performance deficiencies.

This is exactly why it is a good idea. Most HVAC installers put in oversized equipment designed for “rule of thumb” so they don’t get call-backs for being too hot or too cold. Most homeowners don’t know that being damp in the summer or short-cycling a furnace in the winter is a problem. An engineer performing a load calc can easily show you energy consumption differences between models and pay-back periods.

Granted, a some HVAC companies have competent designers on staff. Ask about Manual J (the load calc) and if they say they can do it, insist on seeing it.

Having lived in DC, I seem to recall the natural gas prices being high and the electric rate somewhat low (compared to NY suburbs). An air-source heat pump maybe be less costly to run, and is certainly less costly to maintain.

You don't need an engineering degree to do a HVAC load calculation. If you know how to use a tape measure you can do one yourself.

You can buy a copy the homeowner's version of HVAC-Calc for $49. I have never used it myself, but I have read positive reviews.

Quite true. If someone feels comfortable doing it themselves, it’s a reasonable solution. It just requires knowing certain things about the structure (Cavity insulation, attic insulation, basement/slab insulation, window U-values and SGHC values.) Air infiltration is little more than a guess without a blower-door test. Heat gain is somewhat more complicated than heat loss.

I wasn’t saying you need an engineering degree, just most people who do this professionally are engineers. I have done it myself with satisfactory results.

It is difficult to find someone who does residential load calculations as a business.

A Certified HERS Rater could provide much of the data you need to determine the efficiency of your house and insulation. From that data, a Manual J could be done pretty easily and accurately by any HVAC company, and you would be able to check much of their work.

Some utilities subsidize HERS checks and such.

If a Manual J could be done pretty easily and accurately by any HVAC company then why isn't the company which the OP wants use doing one?

Because it takes time and they are cheap! Also, a correctly sized system, operating as it's supposed to at a certain design temperature might not keep up when temperatures fall outside the design temp. Then the contractor gets a "won't cool" call. They oversize to prevent any chance of this!

If you're going to oversize it anyway, might as well just lick your thumb and hold it up to the breeze!

mike, I said “if” he already had a HERS report.

Hi all, I got another quote from a company that does both carrier and Bryant. The upper level has a 2 stage 96% efficient (926tb4808v17), 80k btu. For the lower level/basement suggested 800sa36070e17 furnace, cnpv2417 coil, and 114cna018 ac. He explained that he suggested replacing ac with smaller sizing than current for better dehumidifing (made sense to me). Pricing seemed reasonable, was $6484, not sure if this is basically equivalent to the comfort?

the 926T is a nice furnace, the 800SA is low end legacy series at 80% efficiency...

TD

Thanks. If the 800sa similar to the carrier comfort (ie noisy?)

The Comfort series condensers are noisy. Can't speak to the furnaces, although a single stage unit will be blasting away at full speed all the time. Their sales brochures mention "quiet tech" technology and "adaptive fan speed" (whatever that is) but it's still a bottom of the line, single stage unit.

I haven’t noticed excessive noise on the 80%, Comfort series unit we had installed. Note that this is an attic install, and hung, so no simple direct sound path. The airflow noise is not significant, but you can hear it if you focus on it. In a quiet period, you can hear the furnace fire up, but even a little noise covers it.

To clarify, I’m wondering if the 80% Bryant legacy furnace is noisy. Thanks in advance! I really appreciate that all of you have taken the time to reply.

I would move up to the Preferred series, whether 80% or 95+% efficiency. And you definitely want an ECM blower motor whether var speed or single speed. That will give you quiet over the conventional blower motor. Quiet also depends on properly sized ductwork both supplies and returns.

TD

Tigerdunes is 100% correct in that if there is any concern about the noise levels, the Performance series is a considerably superior choice. It happened that we were able to have a basic apples to apples comparison and know we wouldn’t have an issue. The simple fact that you are asking the question makes it clear this is an important matter to you.

I would move up to the Preferred series, whether 80% or 95+% efficiency. And you definitely want an ECM blower motor whether var speed or single speed.

As of July of 2019 all newer furnaces (all brands) are made with ECM, It's only if some older models were sitting around in storage somewhere... otherwise there is no choice... the choice is being made for you. The up side is better efficiency, the down side is a motor that typically doesn't last as long as a PSC motor and costs more.

The PSC motor of furnaces and AH's of yesteryear are going away.

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/136459-fer-standards-require-electronically-commutated-motors