The Affodability of Health Insurance has deteriorated since 2015

heri _ cles

" New survey findings from the Kaiser Family Foundation show that health care has become somewhat less affordable even among those with health insurance. Since 2015, larger shares of people with health insurance say they have a difficult time affording their health care costs: from 27 percent to 37 percent for premiums, 34 percent to 43 percent for deductibles, and from 24 percent to 31 percent for copays and prescription drugs.

https://www.kff.org/health-costs/press-release/polling-data-note-beyond-the-aca-the-affordability-of-insurance-has-been-deteriorating-since-2015/

"A new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work. An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found."

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html

There has to be a better way (than health insurance for profit) to provide all Americans with basic healthcare as a right of citizenship. Obamacare was not the answer.

We may well have to consider finding a way to expand Medicare and fund it with, among other things, the savings people have from not paying for private health insurance.

Also consider that a large number of collection cases (not sure the exact percentage) are related to healthcare costs. With some form of universal health coverage the number of collection cases would be brought down substantially.

The system needs major structural change, not more tweaks.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

It is a shame it is so difficult to persuade. people that buying heath insurance from a for profit company is wrong headed. They enjoy paying more so the the insurance company CEO can earn 22 million. I just do not understand.

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jlhug

Wasn’t ACA supposed to reduce the out of pocket cost of medical care?

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HamiltonGardener

If I understand it (in simplest terms) ACA still uses private insurance companies. Just everyone has to buy a policy and they can’t turn you down for pre existing conditions.

Seems like a win for the insurance companies.

Maybe try removing the private, for profit insurance companies from the equation.

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cattyles

I work for a major health system asa department director. I pay for the most comprehensive insurance plan within my choices. It costs me right at $400 a month. I also put the maximum allowed into my FSA. I spent four days in the hospital last November. My deductibles were met and I applied everything in my FSA to my bill. I’ve been paying $200 a month toward my bill and I still owe $6000.

When I went for a follow up visit with a specialist last December, they didn’t collect my $50 copay. I never received a bill. In February, they turned me over to a collection agency. When I called, they apologized and took my copay over the phone and said they would straighten it out with the collection agency. They didn’t. My credit was dinged and the collection agency calls about three times a day even after I explained what happened.

It’s time to change the system.

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Kitchenwitch111

I know the ACA has deteriorated. I'm living it. I've been on the ACA since 2013, when it was much less expensive and included more than the last policy I had through an employer.

Republicans have worked very hard to destroy something that could be good for all Americans. When first passed, the ACA was a compromise and our government could have worked together and make adjustments and improvements, and made the pharmaceutical companies and hospitals fix the exorbitant costs of our health care along with the for-profit insurance companies . It's not like this in other civilized countries. Republicans have made affordable health care to be some sort of enemy and they are really cheating the American people.

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maifleur01

One interesting thing I have noticed in this area and it may have little to do with ACA but vaccinations of many types are no longer covered by insurance. You have to go to a pharmacy or a vaccination clinic for the shots. I am thinking of finally traveling and wanted Hep A &B shots. Not offered at my doctors office. Not covered by my insurance where they used to be. There is a travel medicine company I could receive at $100+ a shot or my pharmacy.

The ACA was only a start. As it erodes insurance companies will cover less if you can afford the insurance. With pharmacies now offering shots and clinics there may be a return to the days in this country if you are sick you told the pharmacist what was wrong and they sold you something.

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heri _ cles

Republicans have made affordable health care to be some sort of enemy and they are really cheating the American people.

Well said. I would add that Republicans are making a game out of the issue for the 2020 election. They want to create maximum division in the Democratic party so they cast Biden (who favors patching up Obamacare) as a "moderate" and candidates who promote Medicare Expansion as "socialists."

So far the Chuck Todd's of the world are buying into and promoting that narrative.


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numbersjunkie

Mailfleur, with regard to coverage for vaccines, I am not seeing that. I get mine at drug stores for free - covered by insurance. My doc suggested that's where I should go as some are required to refrigerated and the doctors don't have the equipment or volume to deal with that. It could be just the hep A & B required for travel that are not covered. These are not something the general population needs, mostly just those who choose to travel. If you are traveling for work, your employer would cover it.

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maifleur01

numbers I am retired but kept my employer insurance. I contacted my insurance company without mentioning the trips. The current shingles vaccine is not covered by insurance. Anyone that has ever had chickenpox carries the virus in their bodies which is a large portion of the population.

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Michele

I have seen it time and time again. The healthcare system doesn’t work for most people. Way back in 1982 when my mom got stuck paying off the medical bills for years after my father died. They had what was considered great insurance at the time.

A friend of mine who’s husband got sick and died. She told me that dealing with the insurance companies was like having another part-time job all while dealing with a sick husband and taking care of two young children.

All the people I know who hesitate to go to the doctor because even though they have insurance it still is too much because of co-pays and deductibles.

I could go on. By the way, my relatives in France don’t worry about going broke when they go to the doctor. They have great healthcare. No one waits months for appointments. That’s hogwash.

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maifleur01

People here do wait months for appointments. One of the women in my monthly lunch mentioned she would not be able to be there in October because if she missed the appointment on that day the next available appointment was January. This was for a resectioning to see if she was ready something that is better done as soon after the sectioning if possible.

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Janie

I work for a major health system

That sounds like Johns Hopkins, or UVA, or U. of AL

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numbersjunkie

Mailfleur, I'm retired too and still have employer insurance. My shingles shots were covered. As I said, your experience does not match mine. Maybe your plan is just not as comprehensive. I had Aetna ins for a while and they denied a lot of claims. I switched back to BCBS. When it comes to private insurance, you need to read the fine print. Even then it's a crap shoot. The docs can't be expected to keep track of all the differences. That's part of the reason for high medical costs here in the US.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

I cannot understand why this problem is unsolvable. Every other advanced nation has this under control and yet we are held hostage to silly arguments on both sides. Righties screaming socialism and death panels and lefties banging on about all or nothing solutions, and then retreating into silence. This is the perfect example of corporate greed using twisted narratives to get people to vote against their own interests.

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adoptedbyhounds

"It is a shame it is so difficult to persuade. people that buying heath insurance from a for profit company is wrong headed."

Obama and the Democrats set up the ACA all by themselves, knowing it compelled people to buy insurance from for-profit agencies. Democrats were thrilled! At first.

Dems denied it was unsustainable. They denied people would lose plans or doctors. They pointed to saving $2,500 per year.

It's a shame so many people were persuaded (by Democrats) that buying health insurance from a for profit company without a subsidy would result in Affordable health care.

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numbersjunkie

Abh, what was the Republican plan - I forget? Oh wait - they had NO PLAN! It's easy sit back and criticise everything but offer nothing.

That whole you can keep your doctor thing just shows a lack of intelligent thought by those who have nothing better to say.

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maifleur01

I always laugh at those that keep harping about the "keep your doctor" as if it had anything to do with ACA as a whole rather than each individual doctor and insurance company. It shows lack of ability to think along with the reality that plans change each year and doctors have the right to accept or reject any insurance company.

I am starting to check for the 2020 plans which should be on line this next month to see what changes are made besides higher prices and less coverage.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

I have HMO insurance through the Marketplace and none of my preventive care (check-ups, screenings, mammograms, blood work, flu vaccine) costs me anything out of pocket.

And yes - GOP must be delighted that so many people do not seem to be able to connect the dots as to why there are so many problems with their health insurance.

And every year, I've had the ability to stay with my current plan and physicians, but have always chosen not to, in order to get lower premiums, copays and deductibles. It's not like any of the various primary care MDs I've had are incompetent either.

Did anyone else get a check from their ins. co. yet? I did - for a small amount, but still...

Not sure who else is aware that part of the ACA mandates that ins. co.s refund premium $$ to customers if they don't spend 80% or more of those dollars on actual health care. We can thank former Sen. Franken for that provision:

https://www.healthinsurance.org/obamacare/billions-in-aca-rebates-show-80-20-rules-impact/

"...The rebates are tied to the medical loss ratio: the percentage of insurance premium dollars spent on actual health care – as opposed to marketing, profits, CEO salaries, and other administrative expenses. If an insurer spends less than 80 percent of individual and small-group plan premiums (85 percent for large-group plans) on providing medical care, they must rebate the excess dollars back to plan members and employers via checks that are sent to consumers each fall....

...
GOP tried unsuccessfully to repeal the federal MLR rules in 2017

While the MLR provision has obvious appeal to consumers, it isn’t universally loved – and was among the ACA provisions in Republicans’ crosshairs as they attempted to repeal the ACA in 2017. The Senate’s 2017 Better Care Reconciliation Act (BCRA) would have eliminated the federal requirement that insurers spend the majority of premiums on health care. (That measure did not pass the Senate when it was introduced as a substitute for H.R. 1628 in July 2017.)

Under the BCRA, states would have become responsible for the regulation of insurers’ administrative costs. This is similar to the approach that the Trump Administration has taken with regards to insurers’ network adequacy, and it’s in keeping with the GOP belief that regulatory authority should be concentrated at the state – rather than federal – level.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated that about half the U.S. population lives in states where the current federal MLR rules would have been maintained if the BCRA had been implemented, and the other half live in states where the rules would have been relaxed. “Relaxed” rules would have led to increased premiums (and of course, smaller MLR rebates), particularly for people who don’t qualify for premium subsidies in the exchange.

GOP efforts to repeal the ACA in 2017 were not successful, though, so insurers in every state still have to spend the majority of your premium dollars on medical costs and quality improvements, rather than administrative expenses."



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adoptedbyhounds

"It shows lack of ability to think along with the reality that plans change each year and doctors have the right to accept or reject any insurance company."

Not so. Obama and other Democrats reassured Americans, PROMISED them repeatedly they would NOT lose plans or doctors. The Democrats were writing a new law, and that promise, plus saving $2,500 per year was what Dems told Americans awaited them. You say you have to laugh, but there's nothing funny about cancer patients losing trusted doctors, as Obama and the Democrats knew would happen. Enjoy your Obamacare victory. It is the gift that keeps on giving.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So all the other improvements to the system should be cast aside because some folks couldn't 'keep their Dr.'?

And I don't recall any emphasis or repeated assertions like that either.

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numbersjunkie

"Not so. Obama and other Democrats reassured Americans, PROMISED them repeatedly they would NOT lose plans or doctors."

So funny. Only someone who had no clue as to how our capitalistic markets operate would have intrepeted those comments that way. I guess that explains why the sheep follow Trump and believe everything he tells them.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

adoptedbyhounds

"It is a shame it is so difficult to persuade. people that buying heath insurance from a for profit company is wrong headed."

Obama and the Democrats set up the ACA all by themselves, knowing it compelled people to buy insurance from for-profit agencies. Democrats were thrilled! At first.

--------------------

Yes it is shame. I stand by my thoughts. I do not know your situation but in my state it did save. People that work knew how fast our employee insurance was rising. We would get a raise and the raise plus was being absorbed in the rise of the employee paid portion, No one that I knew had 100% free employee paid insurance premium. The company paid a portion and the employee paid a portion of the premium.

Until people think of insurance as a necessary part of their life and not a my President political win there will never be a health care system that works.

Personally I would much prefer a good affordable health system than an argument of my political party is better. Both of those politicians have good health care and money to cover their family.

Not one nasty comment about Obama or tRump will heal any of us. Might make you feel good but if you are sick it certainly will not heal you.

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studio10001

The ACA was not established by dems " all by themselves'; your memory is a colander, my friend. The plan was hashed by a bi partisan committee, based on the research of a Republican plan already in effect in Mass., with further guidance provided by the Heritage Foundation's call for an individual mandate in 1989, and the Republican HEART act of 1993. There was enormous support for this on the right - enormous -right until it became a universal issue, rather than a Republican one.

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dadoes

As recently I detailed elsewhere on this board,my ACA premiums have reduced each year, and (IMO) copays and deductibles have been reasonable and well within my means to handle.

cattyles, I had a similar situation on a charge from the local EMS. A 3rd-party outfit (of course) handles their billing. They sent an initial bill 3 months after the service date which I paid. There was a remaining balance which was placed with a collection agency, from which notice received a year after the first bill. I contacted City Hall, which sent me to the EMS office, which didn't much respond. That led me to find the name and email of the EMS Director on the city website. I also called the billing company (several times). I got the balance removed from collections and billed directly to me. They could not explain how/why it had been put to collections but acknowledged it was a mistake. I had additional leverage available (that in the end I didn't use) in that my neighbor knows the City Manager and offered to bring the situation directly to her attention.

CarolB, I received a credit of $292 (via direct-deposit in August) from BCBS which made my August premium payment (for a Gold-level plan) a whopping-huge $75.

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maifleur01

You do not need to purchase health insurance from a for profit company depending on where you live and your connections with various groups. Some of the large insurance companies are mutual companies or chartered as non profit. Several religious groups have health insurance that their members can purchase.

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numbersjunkie

Mailfleur,. There used to be nonprofit insurance companies, but few remain. If you know of any large ones, please share. The plans offered by religious groups are still run by insurance companies. They are special programs marketed to those religious groups but the insurance company still underwrites the plans and pulls the strings.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

You do not need to purchase health insurance from a for profit company
depending on where you live and your connections with various groups.

--------------
I have never heard of this, Can you give details who, what, how?
What you describe Charity comes to my mind and I know that is wrong

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jlhug

Most of my clients who are self employed have seen their health insurance premiums increase in cost annually. Many are buying plans with higher deductibles because the cost of the plans with lower deductibles is no longer affordable.

Numbersjunkie, I am somewhat familiar with healthshare plans that are sponsored by religious groups. To the best of my knowledge, there are no insurance companies involved but coverage isn't guaranteed for anything nor are pre-existing conditions. The people that I know that are have a healthshare plan, love them. However, none of them have ever had to use if for anything like a long hospital stay or prolonged illness nor do they have any long term health issues.

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numbersjunkie

Jlhug, can you provide a link where one is being offered? I'm curious now.

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dadoes

2019, my deducible is $350. Monthly premium (after partial application of estimated Premium Tax Credit) is $368. My pre-ACA policy would have renewed at more than $800/month five years ago.

2018 I paid $438.55/month with partial of estimated PTC applied. Picked up an additional $2,673 PTC ($222.75/month) on the 1040, which made the effective cost $215.80/month.

YMMV, apparently.

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maifleur01

Numbers nonprofit or not for profit? Those are two different things. Then you have to add mutual companies. Some areas BC-BS is a not for profit a Kaiser. Nonprofits are normally based on a group that you belong and are similar to mutual companies. You purchase a share or shares and then are allowed to buy insurance from them. Then you have to think about the large companies that although most hire insurance companies to do the processing they are self insured.

If you belong to a large religious group you can do a search using the groups name and your religion. However many of those are limited to pastors and other religious members.

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maifleur01

numbers although this is an older article this mentions the type of religious healthcare plan for members that is nonprofit. http://mennoniteusa.org/news/health-coverage-plan-helps-mennonites-to-practice-mutual-care/

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marquest(PA zone 6)

jlhug, if people were happy that EO, and Budget laws released the citizens that did not want to pay for insurance why complain. Insurance companies and Hospitals have to cover those without insurance.

Did people really think the insurance company and hospitals were not going to charge more when they did not have everyone purchasing insurance?

You cannot blame that on Obama Care. You have to put that at the feet of the ones that are picking out parts of the original bill was keep the insurance low. Republicans wanted the mandate gone trump signed laws and EO granting that wish.

Be careful what you wish for you will pay for the wishes.

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numbersjunkie

Mailfleur, Yes I know what a mutual insurance company is but very few are left these days. Most BCBS companies are now for profit (whereas they all used to be not for profit), order they have both for profit and non profit corporations operating under one management structure.

Your article mentioned a "church sponsored" plan, which just means that the church contracted with an insurance company to provide benefits under a private label/profit sharing arrangement. It's possible it's "self insured" with an insurance company providing the network, the claims payment services, and some kind of stop loss insurance to cap the amount of risk the church is taking. There's just no way the church is doing this on their own without an insurance company involved behind the scenes. Heck, even Medicare uses insurance companies to process Medicare claims.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

@ dadoes - are you in a state that worked with the ACA, or one that refused to?

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dadoes

TX, LOL. There is no state-level Marketplace, must go through the Federal. BCBS is the only participating provider for 2019. Maybe also was for 2018 and 2017, I don't recall. There were other choices in earlier years. Aetna was a choice in 2016.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FL's not much better - just more ins. provider choices.

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numbersjunkie

Gee, it sounds like the Republican states have the biggest problem. Sucks to be you. But go ahead and keep voting them into office.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

Yep saw a special I a southern state rural area had one hospital and it was going to close down if the ACA was taken away. That mean the citizens would have to drive an hour away for a hospital. The woman they interviewed said her husband had a heart condition and it was a ticket to death for her husband if the hospital left the area.

But nooooo it is more important to complain about Obama said they could keep their doctor. The craziness of the hate because of a political party drive you to harm your health and health of your children is so dumb.

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dadoes

"numbersjunkie: Gee, it sounds like the Republican states have the biggest problem. ... But go ahead and keep voting them into office."

I don't, TYVM.

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

Nebraska had a measure to allow the medicaid expansion in the state put on the ballot (I believe it was back in the 2016 election?) and voters passed it. Since then, state politicians have been dragging their feet about following through on what the voters clearly indicated they wanted by voting for this! Right now a lawsuit to force the state government to let the HMO already running the state medicaid program begin serving the population that qualifies under the expansion rules as well, is heading to the top state court. It's ridiculous that our state government has made that necessary, even though they were put 'on notice' so to speak, by the voters approving the medicaid expansion measure.

If Republicans had worked with Democrats after the passage of the ACA, because everyone knew that the initial law was intended as a foundation for a changed healthcare system, but included compromises and would require more work - tweaking things to make the whole thing work better as time went on - that would be one thing. But instead, Republicans have opted to vote SEVENTY times, trying to repeal or otherwise undermine the ACA. And it's not as though they've got a better plan that covers more people! Most of them think that it's perfectly fine if they repeal the ACA without a plan ready to put in its place, and that the American public should just wait around for such a replacement - if it ever comes at all. (TBH, I don't think that Republicans would actually follow through with a replacement if they were able to repeal the ACA without one at the ready. They'd stall and play "LOOK! A purple squirrel!" to distract people while they run away to their offices and hide).

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Kitchenwitch111

Republican lawmakers do not care about the will of the people -- only their corporate masters. And Republican supporters have been fooled into thinking that that their elected Republican officials care about them and the country.

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Michele

Jenn Purple squirrel? Don’t you mean orange clown puppet?

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Jenn TheCaLLisComingFromInsideTheHouse(5)

@Michele

They didn't always have the orange clown puppet as an option, which is where the purple squirrel comes into play. ;)

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

We have similar problems here with our GOP controlled legislature stalling and obstructing every way they can to keep from implementing the will of FL voters.

We got shafted with no Medicaid expansion because of Rick Scott - best buds with the president now. Grifters of a feather flock together.

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Kitchenwitch111

Those GOP voters consider themselves the official "Patriots" of the country, but they're perfectly OK that their officials undermine the voters if they don't agree with them. Such a selfish, self-centered bunch!

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I often wonder if the complainers of ObamaCare ever had a job and/or ever had employee paid insurance.

Before OC employee health insurance went up a lot every yr

Before OC when the company changed insurance providers some employees complained they could not use their doctors.

Before OC co-payments were high and went up every yr. With med cost much higher than when I worked the co-pay for drugs are even higher now.

So the southern states need to stop complaining and pay the higher cost because it appears politics mean more to them than their family and their own health and the cost of that necessity.

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elvis

That whole you can keep your doctor thing just shows a lack of intelligent thought by those who have nothing better to say.

Butbutbut it was Obama who said it.

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elvis

marquest(PA zone 6)

I often wonder if the complainers of ObamaCare ever had a job and/or ever had employee paid insurance.

Yes.

Before OC employee health insurance went up a lot every yr

Some years, mine went up a bit, some years it went down a bit. Employer was self-insured.

Before OC when the company changed insurance providers some employees complained they could not use their doctors.

Never happened to me.

Before OC co-payments were high and went up every yr. With med cost much higher than when I worked the co-pay for drugs are even higher now.

Nope.

So the southern states need to stop complaining and pay the higher cost because it appears politics mean more to them than their family and their own health and the cost of that necessity.

Wisconsin here.

However, after the ACA took effect, my health insurance premium did go up, co-pays did increase, and it was more cumbersome to get appointments. As far as your remarks about southern states, I don't know where that came from except that you have dissed the southern states in previous posts for years. You're in NE, right?

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heri _ cles

Elvis said:

However, after the ACA took effect, my health insurance premium did go up

You get your health insurance through a public employee group plan right ?

And your husband is/was on it correct ?


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dadoes

After the ACA took effect, my health insurance premium has gone DOWN every year.

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Michele

It’s not working no matter what you call it. The earliest I realized it was when my father was sick. That was 1980-1982. It doesn’t matter who is in office! The system is too confusing. There is entirely too much red-tape. Have you ever been in an office where the doctors don’t all even take the same insurance? Have you ever been on the phone for hours trying to sort something out that is so ridiculous you think you must be dreaming? Have you ever been double billed? Triple? You have to take hours and hours of your time to resolve it, unless you’re so frustrated and have the money to pay it twice. There are many elderly who because of their own honesty and how they were raised feel responsible for any bill they get. They lose sleep.

I know people who have all types of insurance. From super premium top of the line, down to Medicaid. Everyone I know sees how it’s unfair and ridiculously complicated.

The insurance companies are the only ones satisfied. Even doctors express frustration.

This is turning into a rant.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

This is what I said would happen years ago. What is the problem? Not everyone participating (paying into the insurance pool) that is the problem. Until everyone must participate and pay into the system, it's gonna fail. Period!

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studio10001

Michell, sadly you have described every insurance company I have ever had the misfortune to deal with, including Medicare. Only GEHA has ever worked as it was supposed to without intervention. Doctors have been expressing frustration for decades, due to the amount of time and money spent on insurance company red tape, as opposed to patient care. I haven't decided what my final opinion is about Medicare-for- all, but your statements are making the argument for it. I'm unclear from your post -are you a fan of that idea?

I just don't understand the use of the 'keep your doctor' bit as part of the conversation about the ACA. Everyone agrees that the road to inception has had bumps, and when those bumps are the only thing you want to point to, it stalls out the conversation, as if to say: the baby has pimple, so let's kill the baby. We all know there is more to be discussed about American healthcare - join us?

The CBO has reported that the ACA has largely worked. It has slowed the rate of cost increases ( I am discussing percentage rates, not the fact that 'our friend Joe' paid $50 more this year). We know that millions of uninsured Americans have health insurance now that didn't qualify before and won't again, if it is removed. These two things are good for the country, and hold true even with the holes punched into the program by Trump - and BTW, this is now Trumpcare, if we must, not Obamacare. This administration has ownership of the current form of ACA, and there is no argument out of that one. They can improve it, replace it, keep stabbing it with a thousand knives while laughing at everyone whose lives are positively affected by it or continue to ignore the damage they have created so far in hopes that voters will forget and keep blaming the last administration ( the nyah-nyah vote). So, when we talk about what is best for America, the idea of universal care makes more sense than not - to conservatives. Now. Do we have any of those left …. or have they all joined the Democratic Party?


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adoptedbyhounds

"The ACA was not established by dems " all by themselves'; "

Oh but it was!!! Enjoy your victory!!!

Own what your party did to the country when it passed a law requiring Americans to send money they didn't have to big insurance companies...and punished them with fines when they could not afford the premiums. Be proud!

You cannot name a single Republican who participated in shoving that disastrous piece of legislation down America's throat.

My memory is good enough to remember who said "We have to pass the legislation so that you can see what is in it." Is yours?

Do you remember Obama promised we would be able to watch our leaders hammer out the ACA on C-span?

Go ahead and enjoy your victory. Democrats deserve ALL the credit. Try as you might, you're not going to rewrite what they did to middle America.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Interestingly, I was just reading this article from Bloomberg.com - about sham insurance providers taking advantage of this admin.'s relaxing of short term insurance provisions:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-09-17/under-trump-health-insurance-with-less-coverage-floods-market?srnd=premiumhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-09-17/under-trump-health-insurance-with-less-coverage-floods-market?srnd=premium

"...On her way out, Marisia gave the billing clerk David’s health insurance card. It looked like any other, listing a copay of $30 for doctor visits and $50 for “wellness.” She’d bought the plan a year earlier from a company called Health Insurance Innovations Inc., with the understanding that it would be comprehensive. She hadn’t noticed a phrase near the top of the card, though: “Short-Term Medical Insurance.”

The Diazes’ plan was nothing like the ones consumers have come to expect under the 2010 Affordable Care Act, which bars insurers from capping coverage, canceling it retroactively, or turning away people with preexisting conditions. But the law includes an exemption for short-term plans that serve as a stopgap for people between jobs. The Trump administration, thwarted in its attempts to overturn the ACA, has widened that loophole by stretching the definition of “short-term” from three months to a year, with the option of renewing for as long as three years.

Fewer than 100,000 people had such plans at the end of last year, according to state insurance regulators, but the Trump administration says that number will jump by 600,000 in 2019 as a result of the changes. Some brokers are taking advantage, selling plans so skimpy that they offer no meaningful coverage. And Health Insurance Innovations is at the center of the market. In interviews, lawsuits, and complaints to regulators, dozens of its customers say they were tricked into buying plans they didn’t realize were substandard until they were stuck with surprise bills. The company denies responsibility for any such incidents, saying it’s a technology platform that helps people find affordable policies through reputable agents.

Six months after David’s surgery, the Diaz family got a particularly big surprise bill—an error, Marisia thought when she saw the invoice. But when she called her insurer, she was told she’d have to pay the full amount: $244,447.91....


...The ACA was designed around a fundamental economic bargain: Insurance companies would no longer be allowed to deny coverage to people who were already sick, and policies would have to cover a broad set of benefits, including prescription drugs, maternity care, and hospitalization. In return insurers were guaranteed that consumers would buy coverage or face tax penalties, and that subsidies would be available for people who needed them. The approach spread the financial risk of getting sick and aimed to guarantee that no one with insurance would have to worry about being bankrupted by necessary care. Preserving the bargain was essential, though; too many exceptions, and the edifice would crumble.

When the Republican-controlled Senate failed in 2017 to pass Trump-backed legislation that would have gutted the ACA, the administration instead seized on the loophole allowing consumers to buy certain noncompliant plans. Trump used an executive order to extend the time limit for temporary plans, which he and other Republicans talked up as a potential solution for cash-strapped consumers. Healthy people, they argued, could save money by buying policies that didn’t cover perceived nonessentials. “These plans aren’t for everyone, but they can provide a much more affordable option for millions of the forgotten men and women left out by the current system,” Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar said in August 2018.

By then, the ACA system was already wobbling. Aetna Inc. and some other big insurers had been dropping off the state exchanges created for consumers to buy compliant plans, leaving a void that “junk insurers,” as critics tagged them, rushed to fill. A recent study by Sabrina Corlette, a research professor at Georgetown University’s Health Policy Institute, showed that ads for such plans often appeared at the top of internet searches for the government-run marketplaces. Health insurance also became the most common product pitched in robocalls—responsible, according to call-blocking service YouMail, for 387 million calls this April alone.

One company that moved nimbly to capitalize on the uncertainty was Health Insurance Innovations, known by its stock ticker, HIIQ. Founded in Tampa in 2008 by Michael Kosloske, whose father and grandfather both ran health insurance brokerages, the company sought to provide a clearinghouse for brokers who sold cheap insurance to individuals. It worked with insurers to devise a menu of plans, designed software for the brokers, and ran a call center to handle customer service.

After the ACA passed in March 2010, HIIQ continued promoting short-term plans and other limited forms of insurance that didn’t have to comply with the new rules for comprehensive plans. In an interview with Fox News a few years later, Kosloske argued that these policies offered the same benefits at half the cost. “There’s challenges with the Affordable Care Act, and we think our products provide a solution,” he said.

The pitch worked, and Kosloske’s company became one of the biggest players in its niche. When Trump took office, investors saw potential for expansion. HIIQ’s shares tripled within two years of his inauguration, making Kosloske’s stake worth more than $150 million at its September 2018 peak; he lives in one of Tampa’s swankiest mansions and flies around in a Dassault Falcon 2000 jet. The company has also paid its chief executive officer since 2016, Gavin Southwell, at least $14 million in the role. HIIQ now brings in more than $350 million in revenue annually, and it projects that this year will be its most profitable yet...

...After the initial wave of bills came in, Marisia started sending $10 to each of their creditors, attaching a signed note asking the recipient to accept the money as a “payment of good faith.” The debt is never far from her mind. “I wake up thinking about it,” she says. “I go to bed thinking about it. It doesn’t go away.” The family switched to a comprehensive, ACA-compliant insurance policy in December 2017. With government subsidies, it costs less than they were paying for junk insurance."

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Kitchenwitch111

Democrats deserve ALL the credit.

Yes, the Dems did try to make something good for all Americans. Now that the Republicans have done all they could to destroy it, it's Trumpcare, and it sucks.

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studio10001

adopted, you have to be joking. I just told you the Republican groups that worked on it.

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studio10001

And it was a victory, I agree. People need health insurance, and tax payers don't need to be picking up the brunt of costs ( much higher than insurance charges, BTW) for the uninsured. Aren't you one of the people who complains about free medical care?

Pretty sure you are.

This has been a joint effort from the start, regardless of whatever is said into a microphone to garner re elections. Moreover, improving on it has to be a joint effort as well. The inability to work across the aisle is why this administration can't get anywhere with reforming it. The Senate committee did work across the aisle, whether they voted for it or not, and it is duplicitous for you to interject with lies that easily verifiable.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Yes, the Dems did try to make something good for all Americans."

No they didn't. They ordered middle America's families to send thousands of dollars they didn't have to big insurance companies.

They arranged for some Americans to get free health care, for others to pay no premiums at all, and for middle class Americans to pay their own way or be punished with "fines" for not being able to afford what Democrats ordered them to buy. Democrats won. Democrats deserve every bit of credit for what they did to middle America with Obamacare. Those American families who were punished have much to "thank" Democrats for in the next election. Enjoy your victory!

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elvis

Until everyone must participate and pay into the system, it's gonna fail. Period!

Oh, you mean everyone, robin.

ROFL, that'll be the day!

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studio10001

I do. The ACA no longer has any fine, so if that is your objection to it, you are arguing against a non existent feature. Your complaints are consistently about how it came into existence; I invite you to join the actual discussion instead, which is about healthcare today, and not in 2013. Do you have anything relevant to add to this topic?

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adoptedbyhounds

"The Senate committee did work across the aisle, whether they voted for it or not, and it is duplicitous for you to interject with lies that easily verifiable."

Nonsense. You just accused me, personally, of interjecting "lies" into the conversation. Whatever "work across the aisle" took place was not meaningful, as evidenced by your failure to even identify what "work" you're referencing. Had Obama kept his promise to put our electeds on C-Span to hammer out the legislation, you might be able to produce evidence of points of agreement.

The legislation was passed by Democrats alone. They own it. Enjoy your victory and accept that Democrats have earned all the support they deserve for what they did to their constituents.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So conservatives now approve of 'free riders'?

That's what you get when you allow people to opt out of insurance, but still get medical care - as in emergency rooms. And the hospitals have to eat those costs much of the time.

Or should ERs be turning people away who don't have insurance?

Hmmm - wondering whether mass shooting victims have been queried about their insurance status before ERs treated them?

FWIW 'your' premiums already go to pay for other people's healthcare.

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adoptedbyhounds

"The ACA no longer has any fine, so if that is your objection to it, you are arguing against a non existent feature."

Darned right Americans objected to it. Democrats arranged to punish Americans, and they alone legislated those fines.

Do you know why the fines are gone?

Do you know what President Trump's first Executive Order did?

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studio10001

Again, I do. I enjoy that access to affordable access has been provided for millions of people. I enjoy that insurance companies were stopped from denying coverage based on pre existing conditions. I enjoy that that pace of cost increase had the breaks put to it until recently. I enjoy that the marketplace made it easy to compare companies and benefits. I enjoy that those who have benefitted from it have been so vocal as to keep Congress from destroying it outright.

Here is what I don't enjoy - the lack of universal coverage (... and you wanted a name: I hold Snow responsible for this bit. I don't know why you needed C-span to follow what was going on, but you can now google some of the bits you missed. It is no one's responsibility to keep you informed but yours) means that travel out of state means coverage out of plan.

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studio10001

'Do you know what it cost taxpayers?' should have been your question.

Class, what happens to the cost of an insurance pool when there are fewer members?

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dadoes

AdoptedByHounds, what are "middle class Americans" per your measure?

I've always considered myself to be in that group. Maybe I'm not?

I am benefiting from the ACA and enjoying the victory. Does that mean by definition I must be lower than middle class? What do you assume is my economic position? I'm asking you directly.

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Michele

Some people are blinded by their hatred. It’s impossible to have a productive discussion.

The healthcare system in this country has been broken for a long time. Way before ACA. The problems I mentioned are just a few that most people experience.

The amount of money put towards the healthcare industry in this country is mind boggling. Just direct it towards keeping people healthy and helping them when they are ill!

The stinking pharmaceutical companies. Have you seen their elaborate commercial? Money is no object!! Why? Three different scenes! Marching bands! A cast of hundreds. Why not right? They have money to burn!!

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elvis

studio10001

I do. The ACA no longer has any fine, so if that is your objection to it, you are arguing against a non existent feature. Your complaints are consistently about how it came into existence; I invite you to join the actual discussion instead, which is about healthcare today, and not in 2013. Do you have anything relevant to add to this topic?

Not just today. I direct your attention to the OP title: The Affodability[sic] of Health Insurance has deteriorated since 2015.

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studio10001

Your comment points out that the cost has risen since the fine was removed. Any thoughts about that correlation?

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marquest(PA zone 6)

Michele

Some people are blinded by their hatred. It’s impossible to have a productive discussion.

---------------------------

Exactly! It is simple to understand how insurance work but the sound bites they have been feed and hatred blind them. It is impossible to get through even for their own health.

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althea_gw

This WSJ article shows how bad the right has become. I know someone who had to crowd-fund for medical bills after slipping on ice last winter & having to close his business. David Sirota nails it.


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Kitchenwitch111

My best friend from high school visited me this summer with
her husband. They live in Texas. We were talking about health insurance and I
told them I get mine through the ACA. They didn’t know what that was, and I
said Obamacare. My friend’s husband said that’s the insurance for people who
don’t work. I said that there are many people who work and don’t have employer
provided insurance, and most of them pay for their insurance. Didn’t matter. To
him, even one dollar of ‘his’ money going to someone else is too much. He’s
quite the church goer, too.

Corporations & businesses offer jobs with just under 40 hours/week
or use contract workers so that they don’t have to provide health insurance. They’re
making huge profits and getting big tax breaks from our government.

Why shouldn’t the employees have an affordable way to buy
health insurance?

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dadoes

Uneducated. Repubs love the uneducated.

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margaritadina

''

rob333 (zone 7a)

This
is what I said would happen years ago. What is the problem? Not
everyone participating (paying into the insurance pool) that is the
problem. Until everyone must participate and pay into the system, it's
gonna fail. Period!

''

Not me. I have and always had a private insurance with the best coverage and always will. Won't go for a lousy ACA, sorry.

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margaritadina

''

Kitchenwitch111 Yes, the Dems did try to make something good for all Americans.

''

You've got to be kidding, The lower middle class was destroyed by unaffordable ACA, people couldn't get a full time job and had to jiggle two part time jobs, small businesses were wiped off....who are those Americans that Dems did good to? Oh, that's right - those who didn't work a day of their entire lives, they have ACA for free. How stupid was it to destroy the working horse, the contributors, and give to a dead weight citizens? Who does that and takes pride in it?


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dadoes

"MargaritaDina: Oh, that's right - those who didn't work a day of their entire lives, they have ACA for free."

Household income must be below 138% of the federal poverty level to qualify for an ACA premium tax credit in states that expanded Medicaid coverage. All states require household income be between 100% and 400% of the federal poverty level.

Income below the federal poverty level goes into qualifications for Medicaid, not ACA.

So, for 2019, minimum household income (48 contiguous states & DC) --

1 person = $12,140

2 persons = $16,460

3 persons = $20,780

4 persons = $25,100

each additional person add $4,320

The numbers are slightly higher in the Medicare expansion states.

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HU-492312618

Margaritadina, are you suggesting that the ACA is responsible for the movement towards gig work and fewer full-time job openings? In other words, this is why people have to work multiple jobs to make ends meet - and still don't have health coverage?

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margaritadina

I am suggesting that ACA CREATED a 29 hr MAX per week job market culture. A lot of people had to get 2 jobs x 20 hrs.

''US employers slashing worker hours to avoid Obamacare insurance mandate''

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/us-employers-slash-hours-avoid-obamacare

And yes, part-timers didn't get ACA.

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dadoes

Part-timers can get their own policy through the ACA marketplace if their income falls within the qualifying range. Am I wrong?

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studio10001

Wrong. Also wrong about the unemployed.

Those people had Medicaid, marg- before and after.

People who are struggling are exactly who are helped by the ACA, as those of us who have personal experience with the program have been personally attesting. You could not have gotten insurance through the marketplace because you have an employer funded insurance option already. All due respect, but he thoughts that you have on the ACA tell more about your misunderstanding of the program, than it does about the supposed people 'destroyed' by the failsafe it provides. I have posted both the stats and the charts showing the success rate of the ACA so many times that is now difficult to think that anyone has missed it. 'Suggestions' should go in the box of Things that Feel True, but Aren't.

The program is here, and most Americans want to keep it/ improve on it. It would be great to hear ideas about the current options.


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studio10001

Sorry, dadoes, that was intended for the post above yours - slow typist here.

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dadoes

And my ending question makes your post further appear as if directed at me. :-)

A part-timer who does not qualify for employer-provided
insurance ... the employer offers it for full-timers but not for
part-timers, or the business is small enough that it isn't required to
provide insurance to any employees ... can get an individual policy via
the ACA marketplace if his/her income is within the qualifying range.

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HU-492312618

I think there are industries where the ACA caused the shift to PT work to avoid the ACA rules. But those companies were likely not subsidizing the healthcare costs by much to begin with, and the ACA provided an option for those employees. There is definitely a shift to gig work going on too, where employers have no liability for many of the insurance payments, like unemployment and soc sec and also no minimum wage rules or pressure to provide vacation or dick time, but that's another story. Basically it's all about the money.

But even if margaritadina is right that the ACA caused employers to switch to more PT workers to avoid the health insurance requirement, it just supports the argument that we need to move to something like Medicare for All where the burden of providing healthcare insurance is lifted off of employers. And it would help employees who often feel trapped in jobs because of the medical coverage. If that happens, even with an employer option, you can bet employers will drop their plans so fast it will make your head spin. Not a bad thing in my opinion.


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haydayhayday

rob333:

"This is what I said would happen years ago. What is the problem? Not everyone participating (paying into the insurance pool) that is the problem. Until everyone must participate and pay into the system, it's gonna fail. Period!"

Don't take it personally, but I have no interest in being in your boat.

I can resist the Siren Calls of "Free This and Free That". I can resist the Siren Call of "I'll Take Care of Your Every Need."

Enjoy your cruise. I'll stay if you'd be so kind.

"Everybody in, Nobody out!"

"Everybody in the same boat."



These are the creeps who, along with Warren and Bernie want to guide our ship. I want off. Please. These are the co-authors of Warren's BIG LIE about bankruptcies and medical costs.

This is the thinking that drives Warren and Sanders.

"Come to me. I will take care of your every need. Come to me...come to me..."

It's the nature of the Socialists: Every fix is a failure and every failure requires another fix. Every fix means I always lose more of my freedom. You, too.

Hay

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haydayhayday

studio:

"'Do you know what it cost taxpayers?' should have been your question.

Class, what happens to the cost of an insurance pool when there are fewer members?"

My cheapest years were the years when I was the sole member of my insurance pool: The HayForSure Insurance pool.

My costs were almost zero.

Your "logic" is flawed.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I was very careful about not being liable for any pregnancy complications.



Hay

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adoptedbyhounds

"AdoptedByHounds, what are "middle class Americans" per your measure?"

The Americans who don't qualify for subsidies. The Americans expected to find thousands of dollars in their budgets to cover premiums and deductibles. They are the Americans Democrats ordered to buy insurance whether they could afford it or not, and arranged to punish if they failed to comply with their orders.

10.6 million people had coverage in the exchanges in February 2018.

87% of them got subsidies.

https://money.cnn.com/2016/11/04/news/economy/obamacare-affordable/index.html

"I am benefiting from the ACA and enjoying the victory. Does that mean by definition I must be lower than middle class?"

No idea. You say you benefit from the ACA, but provide no details about family size nor whether or not you're getting a subsidy (for which your income must be sufficiently low in order for you to qualify). Enjoy your victory! If more folks had a victory to enjoy, Obamacare would be wildly popular.

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elvis

I suspect that many in this crowd have "low incomes" but very nice assets, i.e., paid off mortgage hence no mortgage payments, no rent payments. Maybe even an extra residence or two. Maybe a nice vehicle or two or three. Maybe a boat, motorcycle, RV, etc. ACA doesn't look at assets. So are they "middle class"? Um, no. Not for purposes of ACA discussion.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

RE: details about family size, etc. - you go first.

And it is precisely because of the continued work by GOP to sabotage the ACA that those in the 'middle class' may not have optimal experience with their health insurance.

Further, I think it's interesting that anyone just noticed that so many employers have been striving to avoid having lots of full time employees in order to reduce insurance obligations. That's been going one for decades, ICYMI.

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adoptedbyhounds

"RE: details about family size, etc. - you go first."

No need. I'm not asking anyone to guess my "class."

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dadoes

AdoptedByHounds, I have provided details in several other discussions over the past year or two about my pre-ACA insurance, the ACA policies, Premium Tax Credit, and cost details on medical incidents.
Elvis ... yes on several of your conjectures. You don't mention savings. Interesting that those kinds of people (who have financial stability) are "lower class."

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studio10001

hay - I had that pool for a long time, too - it's cheap because there isn't any insurance in it. :) I paid cash on the rare occasion I went to a doctor, and was charged triple the insured rate to be seen. These days, I still don't go to doctors, but am old enough to know one bad driver in the oncoming lane could cost me my home, and one bad diagnosis could cost me everything else, so I don't play in an empty pool any more; I buy insurance.

I think it is great that you can afford the out of pocket option for a medical disaster, and you have a right to be proud of that. You have mentioned it a few times and, (aside from my thinking ' happy you'), I wonder what you mean in the more general context of American healthcare. It sounds like you might be advocating that people croak if they cannot afford to stay alive. You would not be alone in that; plenty of AM radioheads are saying the same thing, but could you clarify, so that I can just go back to ' Happy you"?

I think universal healthcare makes sense from a financially conservative vantage point - ideally it should slow the percentage growth of federal healthcare spending. The CBO says this has happened w the ACA, but I have not yet seen their projections for other ideas being offered.

On a related meandering though, I wanted to know if anyone has experience w hospital monopolies. Some hospitals have begun to eat their communities' healthcare systems, hiring doctors directly and raising medical charges as they knock out the competition. I don't know how widespread the practice has become, but it certainly moves healthcare costs higher. Individual doctor offices have been traded in for care centers, and continuity of care seems to be almost gone. In one town I visited, the hospital was taking over the shopping mall, one failed store at a time- which makes horrible sense.....



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maifleur01

Studio even during my childhood hospitals hired doctors so that there would always be someone on staff. One of the big changes I have seen at my doctor's office which is basically a clinic with multiple doctors and locations is that few of the doctors have what used to be called "admitting privileges". Now they will refer you to a hospital but once you start the admitting process you are assigned a hospital doctor. Your doctor no longer has a say about your care. In some ways it works well in other ways it does not give you continuous care by the person you chose.

Topic of conversation this month were doctors who had offices inside a local hospital are repositioning themselves outside of the hospital. This is one of four hospitals that are satellites.

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adoptedbyhounds

"AdoptedByHounds, I have provided details in several other discussions over the past year or two about my pre-ACA insurance, the ACA policies, Premium Tax Credit, and cost details on medical incidents."

I believe you. However, you've not made that information available for the current discussion.

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haydayhayday

studio:

"'Do you know what it cost taxpayers?' should have been your question.

Class, what happens to the cost of an insurance pool when there are fewer members?

There's some vagueness there and someone we know will soon be along to nitpick it to death, but......

The "cost of an insurance pool", I'd think, would need to start with the average cost per individual.

Class, show me how the "average cost per individual" is dependent on the number of people we're averaging.

I'll point out, just for fun, that there was literally no overhead costs in the HayForSure plan. The CEO was a very nice person and did it pro bono.


Hay

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haydayhayday

" Class, show me how the "average cost per individual" is dependent on the number of people we're averaging."

That was the point of my first reply to you. That's the important point. That's the flaw, I think, in your thinking.

Hay

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haydayhayday


While we're waiting.

studio:

" hay - I had that pool for a long time, too - it's cheap because there isn't any insurance in it. :) "


I think of it as having a very high deductible and very high co-pays. All at a very affordable price.


" I paid cash on the rare occasion I went to a doctor, and was charged triple the insured rate to be seen."


You should have gone with the HayForSure plan and let me do the negotiating for you. I got pretty good at walking in with my hat in hand after a day of working in the garden and pleading, "I don't have insurance. Do you have some way you can help me out?" I'd usually get the Medicare/Insurance rate.


Hay



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maifleur01

Hay your last comment about how you negotiated your rate may sound good to you but it raises the cost for everyone that uses that office that does not have insurance. Not something that an ethical person would brag about.

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haydayhayday

Studio:

" I wonder what you mean in the more general context of American healthcare. It sounds like you might be advocating that people croak if they cannot afford to stay alive. You would not be alone in that; plenty of AM radioheads are saying the same thing, but could you clarify, so that I can just go back to ' Happy you"? "

Mostly, I think that YOUR attempt to help these poor dying people, will, in the long run, end up causing more misery and more people dying who cannot afford to stay alive.

So, really, who is the more compassionate?

I'm well aware that people in YOUR camp like to portray anyone who opposes your "solutions" as not being compassionate.

Easy thinking.

Hay

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haydayhayday

maifleur:

" Hay your last comment about how you negotiated your rate may sound good to you but it raises the cost for everyone that uses that office that does not have insurance. Not something that an ethical person would brag about. "

Give me a break, will you?

Take your "ethics" with you.

If you want to pay more for your health care, go for it. Come back and tell us all about your kindness. I'll be here waiting.

Hay

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Oh darn!

People saying cold, heartless things are interpreted as being cold and heartless - how unfair!

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haydayhayday

studio:


" I think universal healthcare makes sense from a financially conservative vantage point - ideally it should slow the percentage growth of federal healthcare spending."


100 years ago the Russians started with that exact same thinking.


" "Everybody in, Nobody out!"

"Everybody in the same boat."


As a people, we have very short memories.


Hay

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haydayhayday

It's not like I haven't made these same points before.


rob333:

"This is what I said would happen years ago. What is the problem? Not everyone participating (paying into the insurance pool) that is the problem. Until everyone must participate and pay into the system, it's gonna fail. Period!"


And my reply:


Hay:


It's the nature of the Socialists: Every fix is a failure and every failure requires another fix. Every fix means I always lose more of my freedom. You, too.


Therein lies the problem. It never ends well.



Hay

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Stan Areted

Amen to "it never ends well."

And they never learn.

Too much time spent thinking about other people's money and how to get it.

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haydayhayday

carol:

" Oh darn!

People saying cold, heartless things are interpreted as being cold and heartless - how unfair!"

You want to be a little more specific about just what was said that was "cold and heartless".



Hay

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haydayhayday

What would you do?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem


""The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics (that is, moral philosophy). The general form of the problem is this:

You see a runaway trolley moving toward five tied-up (or otherwise incapacitated) people lying on the main track. You are standing next to a lever that controls a switch. If you pull the lever, the trolley will be redirected onto a side track, and the five people on the main track will be saved. However, there is a single person lying on the side track. You have two options:

Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.

Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?"


Hay

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Kitchenwitch111

The Americans who don't qualify for subsidies. The Americans expected to find thousands of dollars in their budgets to cover premiums and deductibles.

And Americans paid thousands of dollars for their health insurance before the ACA too. It has always been too expensive in this country.

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maifleur01

Hay you brag about having enough money to fund your own health. You remind me of the guy who would only pay $5 for any plant from a friend's nursery then when he died it was discovered that he was worth over $60 million. My ethics are my own and I do not brag about what I have done and who I have given money to as that is for losers. I was shocked at how Trump like you are.

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haydayhayday

Carol:


" Oh darn!

People saying cold, heartless things are interpreted as being cold and heartless - how unfair!"




Bless her heart.



Who do you think will end up doing more to end some of the misery in the world?


Bless your heart, too.


Hay

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haydayhayday

maifleur:

" Hay you brag about having enough money to fund your own health. You remind me of the guy who would only pay $5 for any plant from a friend's nursery then when he died it was discovered that he was worth over $60 million. My ethics are my own and I do not brag about what I have done and who I have given money to as that is for losers. I was shocked at how Trump like you are. "

Well, aren't you special!

I was waiting for the report on your kindness. I guess this must be it?

Bless your heart, too.

I think I'll go do some work while the sun is still shining.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I do love it.


Maifleur:


My ethics are my own and I do not brag about what I have done and who I have given money to as that is for losers. I was shocked at how Trump like you are. "



Bragging about your humility.

Funny. That thought will keep me laughing while I work.

Now, off to work.

Hay

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studio10001

I see there are some posts missing, and Hay is responding to me w a few quotes that aren't mine, and talking about some camp, and giving quippy retorts that are indeed easy thinking. I'm glad I missed whatever I missed. When I ask a question and the answer is supposition about my thinking instead, I infer that the poster has no interest in the conversation. Fair enough.

maifleur, I think I wasn't clear - in our county for instance, all but 2 GPAs are working for centers that are owned by the hospital - we have no other independent physicians. They do not all have hospital rights, but they do all have specialist rates set by a single hospital. It sounds like you still have some level of independence in your area, and that this is a business model that is trending in some places, but not yet all. Thanks for replying.

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haydayhayday

studio:

" I see there are some posts missing, and Hay is responding to me w a few quotes that aren't mine, and talking about some camp, and giving quippy retorts that are indeed easy thinking. I'm glad I missed whatever I missed. When I ask a question and the answer is supposition about my thinking instead, I infer that the poster has no interest in the conversation. Fair enough. "

Huh?

"I see there are some posts missing"

You want to share with us what's missing? I don't see anything in today's posts that went missing.

"Hay is responding to me w a few quotes that aren't mine,"

I'm here and ready to help you out if there's any confusion with my comments.

"and talking about some camp,"

It's a common expression. What's the misunderstanding here?

NOT QUOTING YOU: QUOTING A DICTIONARY:

"camp:

the supporters of a particular party or doctrine regarded collectively."

Does that help? I think, in this conversation, you and I are in different camps and most people around here would know what that means.

Back to Studio:

"When I ask a question and the answer is supposition about my thinking instead, I infer that the poster has no interest in the conversation. Fair enough."

Show me just exactly what that's referring to and I'll gladly discuss it with you.

You mean something like this:

Studio:

" It sounds like you might be advocating that people croak if they cannot afford to stay alive. You would not be alone in that; plenty of AM radioheads are saying the same thing,

Or maybe this from Maifleur:

" You remind me of the guy who would only pay $5 for any plant from a friend's nursery then when he died it was discovered that he was worth over $60 million. My ethics are my own and I do not brag about what I have done and who I have given money to as that is for losers. I was shocked at how Trump like you are. "

I'm here if you want to discuss it.

One of my most favorite topics!

Hay

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studio10001

You are free to add to the discussion without my permission, certainly? In looking back for any details of your favourite topic, I don't see that you drilled down on anything other than posters that were offended by the initial comment. My own question was concise; I don't think your response needed additional explanation, and I have agreed that it involves easy thinking. If you feel that you have more to add, then I look forward to reading your thoughts at some later date.

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haydayhayday

There's plenty of material in my posts for anyone who wants to talk about something other than me.


Anytime you're ready, I'm here.


Hay

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haydayhayday

" There's plenty of material in my posts for anyone who wants to talk about something other than me. "


I'd love to hear your comments.


https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5791379/what-would-you-do-the-fate-of-the-world-is-in-your-hands


Hay


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