below is a pic of a silver maple and its roots ... its not hard to understand why nothing can grow ....

you can get an ID here ... a norway maple is even worse ...

and my bottom line.. if the most invasive weed on earth .. grass .. wont grow somewhere .... you are going to be very hard pressed... to get anything to grow there ...

ken

how about that sand... lol

Thanks for the responses. Quite interesting and enlightening. since it's basically been established that we can't grow grass. Thought I'd post an actual picture for advice on what were should do here. one of us doesn't like the crabgrass. The other doesn't want to remove the crabgrass and have just dirt. Any creative ideas for a design other than just mulch around the base. as you may be able to tell, this side yard is against our neighbors property. it's a pretty mature tree, looks like it may be dying also. Just bought the house so can't afford to remove tree of this size just yet.

ooops here's the pic

Mulch, maybe, and use a pre-emergent to keep crabgrass and other weeds down underneath the tree (a pre-emergent doesn't harm established plants, like the tree).

Most plants simply won't tolerate being under a tree, but some will.

Ajuga tolerates a lot of punishment, but does prefer at least a little sun. It'll tolerate shade, however, if established and treated well.

Pachysandra is a possibility, of course, but does require some water in dry conditions.

If yellow archangel is not a restricted plant in your state, that's a possibility, but be forewarned, it tends to be invasive if you don't keep after it. Hence the reason a lot of states ban it.

And of course, there's vinca minor.

I would try keeping the grass well fertilized AND well watered. Those roots are taking up a lot of the nutrients in that soil. And also taking up a lot of the water. Not only that but the leaf canopy is keeping rain water from penetrating under the "umbrella" they create.

I would reseed a good grass seed for your area. And I would cover that seed with about an inch of mushroom compost. That compost will keep the seed moist while the seeds germinate, and then will compliment the fertilizer you add. Don't let the seed bed dry out but don't make it swampy.

I have a cluster of a half dozen Norway Maples. The grass grows and I only fertilize with the clippings that I don't remove. We use the area near there for a turn around and the only problem areas are where the traffic is. I also have Norway Maples along my driveway and the grass grows fine. If you have ruts between the visible roots you should fill those ruts before seeding. I'm talking where the ground is lower than neighboring areas, not the areas lower than the roots.

If you're using a grass mixture with yellow fescue that grass grows well in shade, the reason it's in the mix. However it doesn't do well in dry conditions, like under trees.

I tried to add an edit to the first paragraph of the last post:

Well fertilized grass will tolerate a lot more shade.

I'm confused by the pic. Is that large tree on the right a maple? Also, I don't see any real roots on the surface of the ground, nor any real problem with the lawn that can't be fixed with weed killer and fertilizer.

Yes, danielj_2009 the tree on the right is the maple. Per my original post, the weeds have been treated several times. The grass is sparse and has been fertilized and watered throughout the year (though maybe not enough, I'm thinking, since reading the suggestions here from John D Zn6a PIT Pa). The patch of dirt on the left is at the edge of the walkway and partially shows where we've started removing the weeds and dethatching. The no grass dirt area shows that there were only weeds in that area. Removing the weeds and dethatching is how we started hitting and seeing all the roots. Again, as new homeowners, we didn't know they were there, either. They are just not visible all over because of the weeds that have grown around them. The soil is a shallow layer and the roots are less than an inch below it. We started the post to determine if we are wasting our time trying to grow grass in this area and if so, what some other options would be.

I truly get things being too expensive to address everything right away. My worry for you is you stared that it might be dying. I would get it removed before the cost includes repairing the house it falls on in a wind or ice storm. Double check your insurance, our neighbor’s house was not covered when mature tree fell and took off the front porch in a terrible wind storm it also pulled up part of the sidewalk in front of their house and the city sent them a bill for the repair.

Good lawns and shallow rooted trees just do not coincide easily. Added water and fertilizer will encourage tree growth as well as grass, so it really isn’t a battle that can be won IME. Mulch with a crisp edge will look tidy. It will be difficult to establish new plants, even rugged spreaders like Ajuga, Vinca, or Pachysandra under a well established maple, though you may be able to get something going. I just would not think it worth the effort to try.

Thanks for all the input. We are left with contemplating if we leave the crabgrass since removing it would mean a dirt filled side yard with patches of grass or us making an attempt to grow grass or something other in that area. smh

I wouldn't attempt to remove the crabgrass. Next spring use a pre-emergent herbicide to prevent any seeds from sprouting. I would seed now with a quality grass seed, and then use the pre-emergent next spring.If you're using the pre-emergent next spring that would also keep any grass seed from sprouting.

I wouldn't buy seed from any big box store, that seed is likely to be filled with varieties of grass seed that will grow anywhere in the country. Which means those seeds are useless to you. I buy from a nursery, they have bins of seed and a scoop to buy the amount I need. What I buy here is called a "Penn State mix", developed by Penn State U. It has about 60% perennial ryegrass, 20% Kentucky bluegrass, and 20% Yellow Fescue. Ask your nursery what seed they recommend for your area.

Don't even bother attempting to seed a lawn under the maples' canopy.....it will just be an exercise in futility. As Babs mentioned, the tree will suck up all the extra water and fertilizer you apply and the shade cast just makes growing any sort of turf grass extremely problematic. And surface roots, which will tend to be more of an issue as time goes on, will make any mowing difficult at best.

You can try some shade and drought tolerant groundcovers. Geranium macrorrhizum and epimediums are good choices. There may be others appropriate to your area as well......your local garden center can help with selection. But you will need very small starts or plugs to get them properly established in that very rooty soil.

The other option is the defined bed edge under the canopy and then filled with mulch. Very neat and tidy and with minimal maintenance.

btw, if you follow either of these suggestions, you WILL want to eliminate the crabgrass first.

I have never heard of a "yellow fescue".......would love to know what species it may be........ "Yellow" fescue is typically an indication that the lawn is not doing well for any number of reasons.

I said last Saturday:

I would try keeping the grass well fertilized AND well watered. Those
roots are taking up a lot of the nutrients in that soil. And also
taking up a lot of the water. Not only that but the leaf canopy is
keeping rain water from penetrating under the "umbrella" they create.

I would reseed a good grass seed for your area. And I would cover
that seed with about an inch of mushroom compost. That compost will keep
the seed moist while the seeds germinate, and then will compliment the
fertilizer you add. Don't let the seed bed dry out but don't make it
swampy.

I also edited that in the next post:

"Well fertilized grass will tolerate a lot more shade."

I mentioned "Penn State Mix" because it's the variety recommended in my area. And I recommended you seek advice in your area for a seed mix. If you buy a big box mix your total cost may be double that of a local recommended mix if you take into account the inappropriate seed.

Whatever you do, do not ignore the crabgrass. It will own your entire yard eventually if you let it go unchecked. Just cut a nice border and mulch. Mulch under the tree is the best thing for the health of the tree, as well, according to my tree maintenance company. They cited a study that showed that tree root density was FIVE TIMES greater under mulched trees rather than trees with ground cover or grass.

Adding water and fertilizer to grow lawn under a big 'soft maple' tree, is questionable at best. That tree will suck up 95% of what you put on the root area and use all that nutrition and moisture to cause growth to increase exponentially . Expanding the area of the root system as well as the top growth.

And grass won't flourish without sunlight.

I'm not saying it can't be done but may end up being more work and $$ than it's worth.