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Advice on Dual Fuel Range Selection

Gail Gemberling
4 years ago

I am going to purchase a 30 inch dual fuel range. I am trying to decide between the Wolf and the GE Monogram. With the promotions going on right now, the Wolf will be about $6287 ($7037 minus the rebate in the form of a check of $750).. The price of the GE Monogram will be $5600 with the offer of a free item none of which I can really use although I would probably find something to get like a free-standing beverage center and just put it in the sun room of our house since there is no room in the kitchen. My question is, is it worth the additional amount of just under $700 to go with the Wolf? I had planned to get the Monogram and then began to look at the various promotions and realized how close the prices were with the generous Wolf promotion. I had not initially considered the Wolf dual fuel as I thought it was out of my price range. Just wonder what advice anyone with expertise in this area would give me regarding this purchase?

Comments (120)

  • linda
    4 years ago

    i have to say that I love my 48" Thermador gas range. my last house had electric ovens, and I am so happy to have a full gas range, with gas ovens. Bakes beautifully, breads, cookies, everything. Roasts amazing. Love the convection bake. Everyone has their preference, I feel that gas ovens bake better. Just my experience with both through out the years. I love the star burners, they are amazing.

  • girl_wonder
    4 years ago

    Gail, you’re right, that’s what I remember. The Cafe has a warming tray and 6 burners. As I imagined how I’d use it, I kept thinking of my big annual easter brunch where I always make french toast, so the better griddle would be nice. The warming tray would be nice too, but I’m already in the habit of using my toaster oven as a warming tray. Plus both my parents ended up with back problems, so if that’s in my future, the less bending, the better. I believe the Profile uses that bottom pull out drawer for storage. To me, that would be more helpful than a warming tray. Glad you love your Profile after all these years. Good to know they last.

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  • vjs12
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Gail, I do have a warming drawer on my GE Profile dual fuel range. The middle, oval burner is nice. It comes with a very heavy cast iron griddle pan. Perfect for making pancakes, bacon, etc. I like that the stove is 30” wide with a 1/2" lip, on each side, going onto the counters so food doesn’t drop down into the crack. The GE Cafe didn’t have that feature 5 years ago. Good Luck!

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    I went out this afternoon and looked at ranges (what else would I do on a Saturday afternoon?). They were redoing the GE display and so I could not look at the Monogram again. But I did look at the Wolf Dual Fuel and also the Wolf Gas. The Gas Range is missing the nice slide out racks as well as the self cleaning feature although I could always order the sliding racks. Not sure what else it is lacking. I also looked at the Viking 5 Series. I was told you can order it without the black knobs and get silver instead which I think would make it look even better. I think it is a beautiful range but I realize it does not currently have the same reputation as a Wolf, Miele, or Monogram. The Miele oven on the range is just too low to the ground. So I am still undecided.


    But the afternoon was not a total waste. I saw something that I had never seen before. It was the most adorable little warming drawer. It is about 6 inches tall and 24 inches wide and is made by Wolf. I am going to attach a picture. It is the stainless drawer in the center without a handle. You just push to open it.

    I wonder how difficult it would be to install one of these in a cabinet space that is currently just an open cabinet where a counter top microwave sits. Would such a drawer come with all the insulation that goes around it.? There is an electrical outlet inside the cabinet already that is used for the microwave so the electricity is there.

  • M
    4 years ago

    The warming drawer would probably fit, and it might work with the existing outlet. In practice, microwave and warming drawer probably should be on different circuits though. A microwave is close to maxing out a 15A circuit and when you add a warming drawer you run the risk of tripping the breaker. You'd have to check with local codes, whether there is a hard requirement for separate circuits; but I suspect there is.


    The warming drawer costs ~$1100. And it is really limited in size. Wolf recommends to use it for warming coffee mugs and the like. So, not quite sure how useful it would really be for everyday use.


    If I was contemplating this question, I'd pay a little extra and get a SpeedOven instead. A SpeedOven can do double-duty as warming drawer, if you want to. But it is more spacious and overall more versatile. It'll cost you another ~$1000. But you'll get a much better solution than a warming drawer that is too small to be used for much at all.

    Gail Gemberling thanked M
  • D N
    4 years ago

    For those wondering about "Consumer Affairs":

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConsumerAffairs

    Note the section titled "Criticism."

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Thanks DN,

    Now we know. It looks like most everyone except Viking got negative reviews.

    Odd.

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    TO all,

    thank you for all of your comments. I can't go larger than 30." I choose not to pay more than the GE Café so that will probably be what I go with. Now I just have to decide gas or induction.


    Viking has the worst industry complaints. If I wanted a high end professional range I would have no issue making a decision but alas, I don't have the space and at this point of my life have no need for a huge range, nor will my home accommodate. There is little to choose in the 30" size and Café is even distinguishing itself from GE. It is its own identity much like Monogram.


    I guess I'll report back in December and later. My kitchen will be torn out very soon and so the remodeling begins.

    Gail Gemberling thanked Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
  • pittsburrito
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Unless you plan to add kitchen ventilation to outside, please choose induction. Induction will not add any air pollution to your home. Consider the cost of adding external ventilation vs. the cost of induction-worthy cookware. You'll need to invest in one of those.

    Gail Gemberling thanked pittsburrito
  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    I am adding ventilation to the outside. I have a GE profile (same range for the last 20 years) gas range and no blower but did have a duct to the outside. I am adding another outside duct and a pretty good fan and insert to my existing hood. I have not had any but gas for most of my life and just prefer to cook on a gas stove. Am deciding on what I want as far as oven (gas or getting a dual fuel range with electric oven). Cannot decide on the brand as I would buy a Wolf since the promotion they have right now is really good, but cannot risk the blue oven chipping on the dual fuel. Therefore, if I want dual fuel, which I had planned on getting, not sure what to get. I was looking at Thermador yesterday but I don"t like the grates. I do love the fact that it is not so deep as many others and so fits nicely with the countertops. They also have a good promotion so I can get the vent insert for free I think. But theey are awfully pricey. Would end up being more than Wolf because of the great Wolf promo.


    Had thought I wanted a Monogram but they stick out pretty far.


    Durham, did you confirm whether you can get a Cafe without the bronze/copper ring on it?


  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    No you can't do any of the Café without the copper ring. Can't do it.

  • vjs12
    4 years ago

    I don’t understand the concern that the gas range has to be ventilated to the outside. I have never had an issue with gas fumes building up with a gas range that wasn’t ventilated to the outside. I have a carbon monoxide and smoke detector that never goes off. Maybe that just applies to commercial style ranges with much higher BTU. Is that what the Wolf brand is?

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    Yes. The Café range from GE has a 21,000 BTU burner, 18,000, 15,000 and 2 (9,000) Btu. By comparison an electric cook top has about 3,000 per burner. If you cook on high heat with a recirculating fan without an exterior vent with high heat (BTU's) the gas output is greater and the heat will also come into the home.

    I don't cook enough and with frying, etc. to worry so much about that. I do enjoy cooking when I have the time but I love the idea of the control you achieve from gas ranges...such as a true simmer without fear of scorching and higher heat to sear meat, etc. Café does not require outside venting in the specifications. I just know that my non vented gas fireplace does send out the smell of gas when it is running and you are always supposed to have a window open. Also, in the south we have summer and a bit of winter. There is almost never a day that my AC isn't running from April to December. The last thing I need is more heat in my home. I like it about 55 to 65 degrees. (I'm showing my age. LOL

  • pittsburrito
    4 years ago

    Vjs12, I wrote about this above, but apparently it should be repeated. While carbon monoxide is the most lethal, there are other chemical byproducts from gas combustion that are unsafe to breathe, as evidenced here:


    I, too, thought external venting of a gas stove was unnecessary in our own case -- because our stove was in a great room. 5 years later our kiddo had noticable hearing difficulties, and was found to have Central Auditory Processing Disorder (which means ears work great, but the brain is not recognizing the signal data from the ears). My husband stayed up many late nights researching what could have caused this, as our child did not have CAPD in early life. Turns out, several of the chemicals known to cause auditory processing disorder happen to be byproducts of natural gas combustion.


    We immediately switched our gas range for an electric coil one, and 6 months later our kiddo no longer had central auditory processing disorder.

    We are so thankful that his brain was able to recover from the inflammation caused by our daily use of a gas range under a recirculating microwave vent. I share this story to point out how very wrong we were to think external venting of a gas range isn't necessary in a large room -- and your thinking likewise prompted me to pipe up to warn you.


    My 5 year old child was our canary about the health dangers of air pollution from a non-externally vented gas stove. Please learn from our mistake and either externally vent your dual fuel range, or use an electric (or induction) range instead.

    In our case, we are renovating our kitchen in order to have very effective external ventilation -- including make up air. We plan to replace the craigslist electric coil stove with a dual fuel range, which is why I was reading this thread with interest!


  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    I have always had a regular gas range (GE Profile) and there is a vent above it but no fan or blower. It is just a wooden hood with a duct in the ceiling that goes out the roof. I believe with the higher BTU range I should add a blower and am going to get one that can be mounted in the attic so that it can be powerful enough to do the job but so that the noise won't drive me crazy. I do have a carbon monoxide and a smoke detector in the house and it does not go off except for on the rare occasion that I burn something in the oven. My AC guy is researching what type of insert and blower I should get but we already found a few of them that will work.


    I too like it extremely cold in my house and I am in Texas. I keep my thermostat on 67 and am needing to get some electrical work done before I can add my dual fuel range. I am getting a new electrical panel as well because my old one is quite a dinosaur and I have been concerned about it for quite some time. Problem is it is still near 100 degrees outside so finding a day when they can cut off the electricity while they do the panel is difficult. I am not a nice person without my AC so I do understand what Durham Designs is saying about weather in the south. I also have an 11 year old chocolate lab who will start whining if he gets too hot so he and I may be going elsewhere for the day when this happens..

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    pittsburrito,

    What a relief that you located your son's issues with his auditory issues. I am speaking with someone about a vent to the outside. My head knows that not having proper ventilation is wrong. It's shocking to me how Café isn't requiring the ventilation for their ranges. They have a 48" that has emerged in the $8000-$9000 category so are absolutely promoting themselves as a professional line. I know how I cook but it is too big a risk.


    Will keep everyone posted on my decision, which must be made soon.


    Thank you so very much.


  • Allison0704
    4 years ago

    I am also in the South, and have the same heat temps as you, Gail. One tip when you are cooking in the oven, turn the vent on early (before you start to feel the heat) and keep it on at least low when using the oven and until the oven cools down some. It will help with the heat. We have a remote blower on the garage roof. In a previous house, it was mounted on the roof above the kitchen and it was pretty loud in the kitchen. If you only vent to your attic, you are putting more heat in the attic. fwiw, we have had 3 roof mounted blowers and none have ever caused a roof leak. Our current kitchen faces southeast, and after living here a few months we had window tinting added to help with heat gain. Scottsman ice machine and SZ towers kick in heat, and on almost any given day, when the range is used too, the kitchen really heats up. Even with three AC vents in the room, I turn on a Dyson fan.

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    I've gone back to old threads and I realize that many are talking about 2 entirely different types of gas ranges. A freestanding, inexpensive gas range has few BTU's. In my opinion, not worth using over electric. However, even the small, 30" slide ranges that have powerful BTU's usually require venting. Our NC code is based upon the requirements listed in the specifications of the range, including make up air.

    I know this as I do concept to completion interior design and am involved on making sure my clients are up to code along with the GC. However, some people choose not to pull a permit on a remodel. When they are using a professional range, many choose to keep their old venting system that doesn't have the right size duct system for the newer, more BTU gas ranges nor do they have make up air.

    Smells aren't the issue for me except with Broccoli and bacon. I hate to spell them for days. However, the grease buildup I've read in threads isn't something I've had issue with (even though my range is electric)...yes, a bit on the top of the cabinets. I fry very infrequently. I do sear meat and honestly I think I can cook a steak and a burger better on my electric cooktop than on my grill. We broil or roast must of our vegetables and only use Olive Oil and butter. My 5 ply stainless steel cookware will naturally release a piece of meat when it is ready to be turned.

    All this being said, I am so sad that I have to go to such an expense to vent to the outside, knowing that the 400CFM microwave unit from Café that must go over the range will not really be sufficient. However, it's either that or go with induction and replace all of my cookware and then, I still have to contend with smells and grease if I do sear something.

    Sometimes, the job just gets sucked out of a total kitchen reno because even in a small kitchen, nice things cost a lot!



  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    allison0704,

    I think I may not have been clear enough about "putting a blower in the attic". You can mount the blower in the attic along the duct (called an inline blower I think) and it sucks the air out and blows it out the duct that goes out the roof. One of the vent systems I am considering mounts the blower like this and allows for less noise in the kitchen. But it does not blow the air into the attic. It blows it up the duct that goes through the attic and out the roof. I needed a system that when mounted in the existing range hood would not be too tall to fit there. There are only 3 so far that I have found that were powerful enough to handle a professional range. My AC guy is still doing some research.


  • Allison0704
    4 years ago

    That's good, Gail. Just wanted to be sure. They young couple that bought from us 15yrs ago, the first thing they did was take out the vent hood (leaving nothing - she told across the street neighbor she could just open the window, if necessary). There wasn't a window close by. We all thought it was crazy. lol

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    allison0704,

    I have not ever had a blower before but then I have never had a high BTU range either. It just seemed like I should address this before getting the new range. My house is old and leaky as far as air goes but I still feel like a better venting system is necessary. A kitchen designer I called sent over her AC guy and he is the one doing the research on how to address my odd old house's need for ventilation in the kitchen. I just don't want to tear out that big boxy thing above the range area because if I do it will likely open a whole bunch of other issues and I will end up left with no money for the appliances which is what started this in the first place. I hate spending money on things you can't see.


    All,

    I went out to a big appliance showroom just outside of town and found someone who was very helpful (finally). In case I decide to be sensible and frugal, I got an estimate on the Kitchen Aid Pro Dual Fuel Range which is being discontinued. But then I started looking at the Thermador Pro Harmony 30 inch Dual Fuel (4 or 5 burner models are available). I was more drawn to the 4 burner one since I think 5 feels pretty crowded in a 30 inch space. They have a free dishwasher promotion and you can upgrade for a small cost to one of the Sapphire dishwashers which is quite neat since it lights up blue. Yes I am guilty of being drawn to the gimmicks! had my heart set on the FP Dish Drawers since that is what I have always had and I love them. I think the saleswoman was trying to direct me away from the FP as they have had some service issues with them she said. I have not ever had any issues though and I love the fact that since I live by myself I don't have to run a half (or less) filled dishwasher. I just don't like dirty dishes sitting in the dw for days at a time. But if I went with the Thermador Range it would be hard to turn down a free dishwasher.


    Anyone have any thoughts on the Thermador Pro Harmony Range vs a Wolf?


    I asked about the blue oven chipping issue and my saleswoman talked with her Wolf contact about it. Here is what she said, “We do not have an issue with the blue porcelain chipping on our ranges or wall ovens. It’s been 10+ years since I’ve had an issue with chipping porcelain. That’s not to say it has never happened, but if and when it did, it was an isolated incident that Wolf addressed at no cost to the homeowner.”


    This does not sound consistent with the more recent incidents I have seen posted on this forum, so it is hard to know what to believe. I actually called Wolf myself yesterday and asked them a bunch of questions, one of which was about the chipping issue. The Wolf rep on the phone was extremely nice and helpful with a lot of my questions. However, she was not a technical person and she said she wanted to have one of their production people call me on Monday (since it was the weekend) to give me an idea as to what has been done to address the issue of the chipping. I told her I wanted to know specifically what changes they have made to address it rather than just taking my chances on it.


    I really do want a dual fuel range and will likely not go with Wolf, unless they can convince me to a high degree of certainty that this issue is resolved. That I why I am wondering about Thermador. They are quite attractive looking ranges and have a lot of nice features although I don't know about the on and off features of the burners to achieve the low simmer. Does it really make the same noise you hear when a gas stove is igniting? Click, click click?

    I found out at the showroom that Monogram is making big changes in their range for January 2020. They are taking off the bull nose and streamlining it a bit. From what was described it sounds like they may end up looking a little more like the Cafe series that doesn't have the bull nose at all. Great prices can be had on Monogram ranges right now because of the change coming in January. I just have a narrow galley kitchen and would rather have something that fits into the cabinetry a little better.


    Would love to hear thoughts on the Thermador Pro?

  • M
    4 years ago

    Thermador is one of the higher-end brands that the BSH group sells. They also make Gaggenau, Bosch, Siemens, and Neff. Most people on Houzz generally seem quite happy with their products. In particular, the Bosch dishwashers get glowing reviews every time.


    I don't know how different the Bosch and the Thermador dishwashers are. But my first guess is that they are both a good deal. Similarly, while I don't have any first-hand experience with Thermador ranges, I do recall that most people seem to like them. The only negative comment that I found is that some people don't like the noise from the oven fan. But that's a common issue with all dual fuel ranges. So, I don't think you could make a big mistake by picking that brand.


    For similar reasons, I'd probably avoid the Monogram and Cafe series, if I had other choices. They are owned by Haier, and that brand hasn't quite proven itself to be in the same quality range as Thermador or Wolf.


    For the record, I still think that among gas ranges, Bluestar is the clear winner. And myself, I'd either go with that or change tack completely and go with an induction range. But I understand that different people have different preferences, and in that case, Thermador or an all-gas Wolf both seem great.

  • wekick
    4 years ago

    “so it is hard to know what to believe”

    Really? If you read back on my posts, I was a big fan of Wolf until they refused to fix this ongoing problem. This quote if that is what they said is the most blatant of denials of the problem and they have denied the problem all along. If they really have fixed it, ask if they will guarantee the liner for 10 years. They advertise their appliances to last 20 years. Another thing they have done many times according to posters here is ask you to upgrade, at your cost to the next model up when they know it chips too and then it does. If you pay to have it fixed, they will only guarantee it a year.

    This is a recent class action suit. Read the comments. This has happened on the M ovens and induction ranges which are newer products. It

    https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/839208-wolf-ovens-class-action-lawsuit-alleges-self-cleaning-defect/comment-page-1/#comments

    These are the current lawsuits

    http://www.wolfblueovenchipping.com/case-information/

    “ I told her I wanted to know specifically what changes they have made to address it rather than just taking my chances on it.”

    If they say it hasn’t been a problem for ten years and that they fixed them all at no cost to the homeowner how could you believe anything else they said? They would not give me a cost to fix only that it would start at $800.

    I have my emails documenting everything I said and was asked to be a named plaintiff in a class action lawsuit but I just don’t want to go that way with my time.

    I would like to replace my Wolf. I use it but with no convection and keep everything tightly covered. I have a wall oven that I use most of the time. I would most likely go with BS RNB because I have the wall oven. Monogram is intriguing with the “Direct Air” but not so sure of GE now that it is owned by Haier as M said. A friend Recently bought a Thermador with a combi oven and likes it.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    wekick,

    I certainly do not doubt you at all and appreciate all of your information regarding the Wolf chipping. I read the last link with the description of the two class actions word for word and am wondering about the dates on the items that reference Houzz postings. When it says in the reference "last visited..." and then gives a date, these dates after the words "last visited" are mostly in 2018. Is this the date of the ovens cracking or is this the date that the attorneys for the plaintiffs noted the references of the posts from previous years? I am just curious in case they tell me the cases of cracking are several years ago. I am going to be interested to see what they say if they in fact do call me next week. Granted, cracking in say 2015 as opposed to 2019 isn't that reassuring.


    I am thinking the Thermador may be a good option if I want dual fuel. They are quite nice to look at I will say. Yes I admit to being drawn at least in part to the look of the range. I did price the BSRNB and it is a decent price point. Just not sure it is what I am looking for. If the GE had a sleaker look I would probably strongly consider it as many of the features are impressive.


    wekick, Did your friend say anything about being bothered by the way Thermador burners go on and off and the clicking when doing simmering?


    Will keep you posted on whether anyone from Wolf follows up with me.

  • wekick
    4 years ago

    “Granted, cracking in say 2015 as opposed to 2019 isn't that reassuring.”

    It would also make what they said not true. 2015 or 2019. The comments on the first link I posted were pretty recent.

    The first link I posted today has comments with 11 reports of chipping this year.

    On the post I made above a few days ago was a complaint this year but more importantly is how this person was treated which is a departure from the way they treated people in the past. Wolf used to bring oven after oven as reported here and replace them if you were under the 2 warranty. Note the date but also search blue chipping in this forum.



    The new M oven was designed with a replaceable bottom to make it easier to fix.

    They have to have no reports of chipping for at least 5 years because the ranges often seem to take longer for the problem to show. Mine took 4.5 years, so out of warranty. They also try to blame you. “You must have done something”. They also treat people differently depending on how much you can haggle with them.

    They COULD just show good faith in light of all of these problems by standing behind their product even out of warranty. If it’s really fixed why not give a 10 year warranty on the liner?

    —-

    No my friend did not mention the off and on.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    M,

    Thank you for your comments regarding Thermador. Yes, I was thinking the free dishwasher might be similar to the Bosch which everyone seems to applaud. I think it is the Emerald edition that is free. I was thinking of upgrading to the Sapphire (I think you pay a little bit but not nearly what it would cost). Really difficult to turn down. It has a water softener and we have very hard water here. Giving up my dish drawers would be hard. And I would likely run it only half full much of the time because I don't like dirty dishes sitting around in the dishwasher. But the Thermador Range is really nice. Do you know anything about the clicking noise when it does the simmer and switches on and off? I don't know if that would bother me.

    I think the fan noise would be okay if it helped to cool things down quicker. Heating up the oven for a good part of the year in Texas is not something that we like to do. Today it is extremely hot and it is almost October.


    If you don't mind me asking, what is your profession? You seem like you have good knowledge of all the brands and I just wondered.

    Thank you again.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    wekick,

    And if it were truly fixed you would think they would make a big deal of it and advertise that they had found the problem and fixed it. I can think of a number of brands that endured some well-deserved bad press and once they corrected the problem, they made it known that it had been corrected.


    I don't know why Wolf doesn't just change the inside of their ovens completely (especially the blue color since it has such a stigma associated but also figure out what the problem is and fix it).


    Yes, they tell you if you have a certified Wolf installer install your range, you get an extra year on your warranty. But actually I think I recall reading that if it is deemed cosmetic such as door panel, handles, etc. or "interior surfaces" as they tried to say in some of these, it is a matter of 60 days on the warranty.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    All,

    I had called Subzero/Wolf yesterday (Sunday) and asked some questions about their ranges--one of which was about the cracking of the blue lining on the inside of the dual fuel ranges. The person who answered yesterday said they wanted me to speak with a production specialist and they were not available on the weekend but would call me back on Monday. To my surprise they actually called me back just a while ago. Here is a summary of our conversation.


    I began by explaining I was considering the purchase of a dual fuel range and had come across some information I wanted to ask about. I asked the gentleman what the reason was for the cracking. I figured if I asked this way, and it had not been resolved, it would be obvious because they wouldn't really know the reason. If it had been resolved, he would jump at the chance to tell me the cause and put me at ease. He stated very clearly that they really do not have a cause for the cracking but there are some things that seem to be perhaps associated with the issue.


    He said it was handled on a case by case basis and that the customer is always first. He said there are some things they tell customers to do and not do in order to minimize the likelihood of this happening. He said one is not to place anything on the bottom of the oven when it is on as the item will melt and cause problems with the surface. Also he said not to run the self clean function too frequently. He said maybe once or twice a year only after a large gathering. I asked him if it appeared to be associated with high temperature and he said yes. (Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it supposed to get very hot inside an oven?)


    I specifically told him I had seen the recent class action lawsuits and that it surprised me because I had thought that the cracking had been something that happened quite a while ago and that these were fairly recent. He said he did not know the individual situations involved there but that it is a very rare occurrence. He said he probably hears about maybe "one instance a week."


    I am not sure how others feel about this, but I think one instance a week is quite a lot myself. I asked what would happen if I purchased a dual fuel range and then in 4 years after the warranty expires, the oven begins to crack and flake. He said then I should call them and they would send someone out and that they would take care of it because the customer comes first.


    The fellow was extremely polite and courteous. He did not take offense at my questions at all. In fact, I told him this would be a very large purchase for me and if something happened like this it would be quite a hardship. He said something to the effect that of course it is a lot of money and at this price point we always will treat the customer correctly.


    I don't know that I really got any answers as to how to feel about purchasing a Wolf Dual Fuel Range based upon this call. What I do know is that Wolf does not know what is causing this yet they are still making the ranges. And so, for what it is worth, this is a summary of my chat with a Subzero/Wolf production specialist. I am curious what others think about this.

  • Allison0704
    4 years ago

    Thank you for relaying the conversation to us.


    Oven cleaning mode works at a much higher temperature than cooking. From what I've read on older Houzz/GW threads (and maybe elsewhere, it's been over a year), you should not start out the oven in cleaning mode. You should work towards that temperature before turning on cleaning mode.


    This did not deter me, since I only used cleaning mode once in 13yrs in our last home, and maybe twice in 20yrs in the home before that. I guess I never cook messy oven dishes?

  • ILoveRed
    4 years ago

    Gail...I just saw your question to me. So sorry. I trust Wolf/SZ and I live in an area where service is very limited to various brands. Wolf/SZ is the one brand that I trust that is sold locally and has readily available service. Service to me is critical. I would never buy a product that I can’t get serviced easily. Been there done that with Miele.


    with that being said...I had no problems with my Wolf df range (for over a decade of use) with chipping. New house.... I have a new wolf wall oven with the Wolf combi. Have not run self clean yet But I’m not worried. My wall oven gets little use because my combi is in constant use tbh. That’s what you should really consider. The combi is a miracle oven.


    my son-in-law is an amazing cook and has a 36” Wolf all gas. It does not have the blue interior, it is beautiful and he puts out amazing food on a daily basis on the cooktop and from the oven...a really good option.


    Someone on here has the Thermador Grand Pro....have you had a chance to look at it? It is gorgeous and amazing. I was enthralled with it until I saw it in person. As beautiful as it is...I just couldn’t get my over 60 yr old body to imagine bending so far over to reach the low warming drawer. If you are young, look at this beauty.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    ILoveRed, and Allison0704,

    I am sorry to say I am not young (turning 65 on Saturday) and one of the criteria I have been using to sort out the ranges is how low the ovens are. I only have room for a 30 inch range and so don't think I can do the Grand Pro or the combi. I loved the look of the Miele but you are standing on your head when you open the oven. I think the Wolf 30 inch and the Thermador 30 are about the same in terms of how low the ovens are. I really want Dual Fuel so it is a matter of whether I take the risk with the Wolf or not.


    I wasn't sure what to make of that conversation with the Wolf guy. He was very matter of fact in acknowledging that chipping could happen. And then you call them up and take your chances. Doesn't hearing about one a week sound like a lot? I know I can get service from either Wolf or Thermador easily here in Austin. I think I am down to either the Thermador Pro Harmony and the free dishwasher or the Wolf and the $750 rebate check. The check will pay for about half of my Fisher Paykel dish drawers that I was planning to get.(I really love them as they make things easy on my not so young back).


    I notice the Pro Harmony doesn't have a timer or clock. Do you know if the knobs are back lit at all when a burner is in use. Are there any lights around the knobs on the Wolf?

  • wekick
    4 years ago

    “ I asked what would happen if I purchased a dual fuel range and then in 4 years after the warranty expires, the oven begins to crack and flake. He said then I should call them and they would send someone out and that they would take care of it because the customer comes first.”

    I would get that in writing.

    Look again at the recent post above at the trouble that person had this year under warranty. If I had not had the chipping or they had taken care of it, I would still be a fan. We own a business and nothing makes a more loyal customer than when they have a problem and you go above and beyond to take care of it.

    You find out what a company is made of by how they treat you when you have a problem. If you don’t have a problem, you don’t really know. They can promise the moon but it is what they actually do. I don’t think I ran my self clean maybe three times in the 4.5 years befor it chipped. Keep in mind they have nothing in the manual about limiting how often you run it. It is marketed as a benefit and nowhere does it give a frequency or limitation of any kind. They did try to tell me I must have put something on the bottom or did something else to cause it. No, I think it has a lot to do with the build up of heat over the hidden element. A few companies have enamel that withstands that all of the time while most blue formulations seem to not be as durable. The inside of the oven goes to 900°F in most self cleans but the bottom gets hotter than that. The old style with the element on top of the bottom don’t subject the bottom to as much heat.

    These are the instructions from the manual.

    “Before utilizing the self-clean feature, use a razor blade to gently lift baked on foods from the oven cavity and window. For stubborn stains, spray with a mild abrasive cleaner or spray degreaser and scrub with a no-scratch Scotch-BriteTM pad (pink or blue). Wash the entire oven cavity with soap and water to remove cleaning chemicals before entering self-clean mode. If residue is not cleaned from the cavity, etching of the porcelain may occur. Once the self-clean cycle is complete, allow the oven to cool completely and wipe out ash with a damp cloth.”

    What is the point of the self clean? Etching isn’t the same as the enamel coming off.

    Yes you said it right. They know this and keep selling them. Somebody will ingest a blue shard and have a problem. It will then get the proper attention.


  • Zalco/bring back Sophie!
    4 years ago

    Has anyone had the blue chipping without having used self clean mode?

  • wekick
    4 years ago

    Yes, if you look back they have.

  • ILoveRed
    4 years ago

    Gail, is your kitchen plan set in stone already? At our age, the cooktop and wall oven is ideal imo. i loved my range in our last house but am really loving the wall ovens and rangetop in my new house. So nice having the oven up higher.


    i had the dishdrawers in my last house. I adored them and really regret not using them in my new house. Good choice!

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    ILoveRed,

    Yes I am just getting new appliances and maybe painting, changing knobs on cabinets and maybe the faucet. I did a down to the studs remodel in 2007 and just cannot afford (or endure) it again. If I were starting over I would definitely do the wall ovens for sure. But I live in a very old house, just retired and am not in a position to do an entire remodel again. I love my house very much and this whole thing began because I am spending more time at home since retiring and decided I would like to get new appliances and spruce up the kitchen. I want to do some more baking and so I started looking at dual fuel. So this is where I am right now and trying to decide.


    I had hoped the call with Wolf would help to lessen my concern about the chipping but it really did not. There are no guarantees. I think Wolf probably offers better service overall than Thermador but Thermador doesn't have a chipping problem.

  • ILoveRed
    4 years ago

    Congratulations Gail on your retirement. How fun that you will have an updated kitchen as you are enjoying more time at home. Such a sigh of relief.


    If the range is your only option, then the range is a good option. If you are worried about the chipping issue at all and Wolf is the range you want (and I don’t blame you..I love my Wolf), then go with the Wolf all gas. Seems like a great option.


    the all gas gas is cheaper than the df and it is still a beautiful beast. Is there a reason why the electric oven is a game changer for baking? My son in law bakes and his all gas Wolf puts out amazing items. I know it doesn’t have self clean but how often do you really need to clean the oven anyway?

    Gail Gemberling thanked ILoveRed
  • wekick
    4 years ago

    “ Is there a reason why the electric oven is a game changer for baking? ”

    You answered your own question

    The combi is a miracle oven.”

    in residential ovens, the combi oven is the epitome of what an electric oven can contribute—control.

    A gas oven is pretty straight forward. The source of fuel determines its build, which includes a big vent in the back to get rid of the products of combustion, end up in your kitchen. If you look at Fresh Loaf site, they talk about how hard it is to keep added steam in these ovens, which some bread bakers like to do. They rig up steaming devices and some even stuff up the vents which is not a good idea. In any case this venting makes a drying environment for whatever you are baking or roasting. This allows the chemical reactions that produce browning to happen a little faster. It also inhibits starch gelatinization. Using steam promotes starch gelatinization in a big way. If you don’t bake bread, this might affect the ability to keep added humidity of a bain marie in the oven. It is just less humidity whether baking a cake or roasting a turkey. With the fan, you have dry and drier. A benefit can be that it browns faster when roasting.

    An electric oven has very small or no vents. They hold on to moisture from the food. To get an understanding about humidity in using an oven the Gaggenau combi user’s manual talks about what levels of humidity are best for each type of cooking and at different times during cooking. Electric ovens can allow a lot more control depending on how many controls they have. It is common to be able to control direction of heat and fan speed(drying—>browning) but the combi ovens control humidity levels and the drying is just as important as increasing humidity. The best ones have good ventilation.

    You can of course cook/bake in either but depending on the recipe, you can get different results. My sister and I bake the same oatmeal cookies with the same butter and other ingredients and hers spreads more and is crispy and mine is thicker and chewier. She has gas and I have electric. They are both good but different. Baking is complex with many variables so some recipes might work better in one or the other.

    An electric oven is a lot more difficult to pick out. Just because they have a third element(European or true convection) in back, does not mean they all work in the same way. The fans are very different. Some produce hot spots.

    Gail Gemberling thanked wekick
  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Obviously I have a lot to learn about ovens and have only just begun that process. I was actually comparing the Thermador and Wolf Dual Fuel and the two ovens are quite different as well. I think I recall that one has a single fan and one has two fans. Wolf does proofing and Thermador does not. I don't know how important that is because I have a friend that bakes bread and she has her own way of making it rise without an oven that does proofing. I think she has an induction range and her oven is electric but she doesn't have convection at all. So I sure wish I could get the larger range from Thermador that has two ovens including the steam oven. I hear that it is wonderful and it is absolutely a beautiful range. They had it in the front kitchen at the place I visited last week. I do so much appreciate all of this information from everyone.

  • ILoveRed
    4 years ago

    Wekick..very educational post. I had the Gagg combi in my last house and I loved it. It was probably more versatile than the Wolf combi i have now. I’m just a very average cook and my dh has multiple food allergies so I am also a boring cook. But, I would still love to learn more...especially about my combi.


    Gail...thanks for letting me horn in on your thread. Yes, the Thermador Grand Pro is gorgeous but that steam oven/drawer is practically on the floor!

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    ILoveRed,

    Please always feel welcome.. I love hearing everyone's experiences as this is all very new to me. And yes, I opened that drawer and it felt even lower than the Miele I mentioned earlier. I think it comes with a whole bunch of accessories like the pans that you use in it. They were so small but really quite cute if a pan can be cute.


    I wonder if the 30 inch Thermador Pro Harmony Ranges have backlit knobs when a burner is on. There is no timer or clock. I don't think that would bother me because I have a clock on my kitchen wall and there is one on my microwave, my coffee pot, etc. How many clocks does a retired person need?

  • pittsburrito
    4 years ago

    Durham Designs, we are solving our lack of microwave space by mounting a small one underneath an upper cabinet. GE makes one for this purpose: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/529032287455629469/?nic=1

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago

    Durham Designs,

    Congratulations on your decision. I know you did your research and I am glad it finally paid off in that you were able to actually see what you are spending so much money for. I don't know why it is so difficult to find places to see these things. I live in one of the fastest growing cities in the US and I have still only found a few places where I can see what I am likely getting. And no place where they have the 2-3 things I am considering in the same place to make a comparison. I will take your advice and do a few more Google searches.


    I know it is not fun to spend money are things you cannot see. I am getting ready to do that myself on the 240 outlet and new panel for electric along with the ventilation install involving some attic issues. But better to do these kinds of things correctly rather than have something happen later.


    What color did you get? At least that is something fun to talk about.

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    I did the stainless range. I don't like the vinyl feel of the café white and black. I'm doing a stainless and black vent hood and will have a leathered simple black granite on the counters with herringbone honed Carrera marble 1 X 6 on the walls to the ceiling. I plan to use brushed brass hardware on the white cabinets. I haven't had the electrical work done so I don't have that pricing factored yet. UGH. I'm 62 and we have a master upstairs.

  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Durham Designs,

    That sounds beautiful. As a designer do you have a difficult time doing your own space? I agree about the white and black CAFE appliances. I did not like them when I went and looked. I actually went and looked at them because I thought I wanted the white range since all of my appliance are white but I just thought it would get dated pretty quickly.


    I am jealous of your brass hardware. I may change my hardware in order to accommodate the panel ready dish washer which I will likely get to match my cabinets. The hardware on my cabinets now is a little too dainty to use on a dishwasher panel.


    Your hood sounds really pretty. You will have to post a picture for us when it is all finished. What are you using for your faucet? I am thinking about changing mine to one of those TOUCH faucets that are I believe made by Delta. There really isn't anything wrong with my current one except that the polished chrome shows fingerprints every time you touch it. But I like the shine of it when it is clean.


    I have a designer who is going to help me with some ideas for cladding my big boxy hood thing that is a part of my house over the range. It is rather odd but cannot be taken down as in a 75 year old house it would likely cost a fortune because I don't know what it would end up revealing. But it has an area inside it for the ventilation unit and has the duct going out of it through to the roof. Just have to get my AC guy to put in the ventilation unit itself. We found 3 that will fit, thank goodness. I just want to make it look prettier and more intentional.


    I have an estimate on my electrical which will be right at $2000 because of the new panel I have decided to put in. It should have been done a long time ago and it has gotten to the point where things blink sometimes and my electrician says it needs to be redone. You cannot add even one light fixture to my house with the current pane .. Better to be safe. Yours should not be that much if it is just the wiring for the ventilation. The gas is the thing that is your big expense but I think you will love your gas stove.


    I am going to be 65 on Saturday and so am thinking of this appliance purchase as a present to myself. I am just going to hold my nose when I pay for the electrical panel and all the not so fun stuff.

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    Gail,

    Yes, it is very difficult for me to make decisions for myself but mainly because my kitchen is small and my house isn't that large. This is our last hooray pre-retirement.

    The biggest factor for me is I know we will not increase the value of our home with this renovation. It is purely because we want to change it to enjoy for ourselves. My client's like that I am not frivolous with their money or mine. Of course, budget is relative to the client and the home.


    I was all set to purchase a touchless faucet but several of my clients do not like them. Delta was the first to have them but other brands do now. I have plantation shutters above my sink so my space is tight for the faucet. I'd love to splurge on the Waterstone but my kitchen isn't grand enough for the size. I'm doing a ledge style stainless 32" single bowl sink and most likely will do a Polished nickel faucet. I don't like the stainless faucets and I can't find a gold or brass one that is the right shade and I want a transitional style.


    My style is traditional with some updating of contemporary art and my 18th Century dining room from Council Craftsman has hot pink cut velvet on the seats. I sold my serious and dark oriental rug and have a sea grass rug. I designed and had made a contemporary mirror over the Hepplewhite sideboard. I love classic design and quality pieces that stand the test of time with just a tweak here and there. The one trendy component that I'm thinking of doing is putting a Herringbone wood "barn door" painted black at the pantry. (Not rustic looking).


    Now, all this said: I know that this will snowball into 2 chandeliers being replaced and new breakfast room and family room furniture. I sold my Baker breakfast room table and chairs and my sofa and chairs in the open family room are 17.5 years old but we aren't home very much. I want to get an "in/out" fabric and do a small sectional that is light in color. I've worked most of my life in high end furniture so thank goodness I can purchase most at cost plus shipping and delivery. The furniture market starts the 18th of this month so I'll be sitting in sectionals.


    Now, I just need to keep my fingers and toes crossed that the stock market bounces back! Horrible day!


    I'd love to live in a charming old home. I adore old wood flooring and old doors, etc.


    With regards to ranges: If money were no object and I had a really nice sized kitchen or won the lottery I'd have a LaCanche range and my sink would be custom made by Haven's Metal. I promise you, I would have NO doubt of these items nor the faucet from Waterstone! I do cook, but I am not a baker at all. I do make a mean ham and can bake but I'm a creative, scratch cook with a rather refined palette and a huge foodie. I can usually discern ingredients from any food I eat (and I'll try just about anything) and get close to recreating it at home. I love to travel and food is A HUGE factor in my travels.


    I sure hope this kitchen thrills me because we could take 3-4 trips to Europe for what I am spending.


    Happy Birthday. My mother would have been 93 yesterday but she died at 62. I have so many of her things. I was starting to clean out my cabinets and I still have her pound cake pan even though I've never baked a pound cake in my life! I still have my iron skillet she gave me 43 years ago. I only use it for cornbread.




  • Gail Gemberling
    Original Author
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Durham Designs,

    So funny you should mention Waterstone. I saw one in a showroom and not knowing anything about it I gravitated right to it. My friend who was with me knew what it was and she started laughing because I always am drawn to the most expensive of whatever it is I am looking at. And as a recently retired college professor I can seldom afford it. I can't have too tall of a faucet either as I have a window over my sink and it would overwhelm my small kitchen as well.

    Your house sounds wonderful. Very different from mine but definitely one that anyone who visits would be interested in. I have a somewhat edgy style that was once described by the teacher in a design class I took as "Bohemian Primitive Spanish"--whatever that is. It is always evolving. I have quite a few older things some from my grandmother and parents as I am the only child of an only child so everything has gotten passed to me. I have a big storage unit and I switch things in and out of my house. I have contemporary art as well along with a lot of color.

    Mothers must feel like they need to give pots and pans to their daughters. I just heated up some soup in a Revere Ware sauce pan that my mom gave me when I had my first apartment. I also have a set of colorful Corningware bowls that she gave me. I don't use them but since my mom gave them to me I let them occupy precious space in my kitchen cabinets

    My house is quite small (1300 square feet) so I can identify with your size limitations. I am in Central Austin near the University and downtown. The property values in this area have gone up so much since 1981 when I bought my house that I can barely afford the taxes on it now. It would be great if I wanted to move and cash out but I don't. Many people in the high tech industry have moved here from California and they are driving up our property prices (and taxes) by their willingness to pay extremely high prices for Real Estate. They will come into the area and pay half a million dollars for a 1940s bungalow and then tear it down and build a huge monster house on a tiny city lot. I guess this is progress but I have watched Austin grow from the laid back home of Willie Nelson to a high tech mecca and I really miss some of its old character. I know what you mean about the stock market--I try not to watch it daily or I will go crazy.

    My dad grew up in an Italianate Victorian house on a farm in Central Illinois. My uncle lived in it all his life and farmed while my dad left the farm to pursue another career. After my uncle died, my dad and I fixed the house up. I kept it for many years and visited there in the summer much like I did growing up. After a while it just became too much to try to maintain a home in a place where you don't live. Particularly during the winter. So I sold it to a wonderful family that I have known for many years up there. But I did keep a lot of the family items which range from Victorian Antiques to Homemade. My favorite item is an old gate-leg table that my grandmother inherited from her grandmother, originally from Pennsylvania and built by Amish craftsmen. I use it as a console behind my sofa with the leaves folded down. I was born in Hawaii and while we only lived there a few years, my mom had a beautiful carved chest with a matching set of nested tables that I am trying desperately to find space in my house for.

    I lost my mom in Dec. 2017. She was 96 and lived in a Retirement Community in Dallas. I still have not gone through all the things that I kept from my parents house from 2004 after my dad died and mother decided to sell the house and move. So much stuff and they had lived in the house since 1956. I did donate a lot of things to several charities and sold a few things but there are some personal items you just want to take your time going through. They are all in storage here in town and so now that I am retired, I hope I can have time to sort through things.

    I think I must have in my possession about a dozen sets of dishes (some probably quite valuable and others not worth anything). My mother had drawers full of costume jewelry from the 1920's on up and they have been really fun to go through. She never met a bracelet she didn't like it seems. I have integrated some things from my family into my house but have had to do so sparingly due to space limitations. I did find room for a lovely blue Lalique vase that sits in front of my bedroom window and catches the light. My mother kept it in a cabinet because she didn't want to break it. But I think it should be out where it can be enjoyed.

  • PRO
    Durham Designs & Consulting, LLC
    4 years ago

    Gail,

    You have lots of treasures that I'm sure will bring about many fond memories as you sort through them. I'm the youngest of 4 girls but grew up like an only. Much of my mother's things were not my taste but I so enjoy the items I have. Things that she collected from PA & Germany, etc. are more casual than I but my daughter is very "farm house" with her style and has those.


    You will not believe this but I swear I had a strong inclination that you had roots in PA. I have 2 sisters and 3 nieces with families that live in PA and I ADORE Amish country. My mother loved it as well. Honestly, my husband and I have thought of relocating to PA for retirement but alas the summers are just as hot as here and the winters are bad.


    If I had room for more dishes I'd have them. I have to force myself not to look at them. There is nothing better than collecting old mismatched plates and saucers and "putting on the dog" when entertaining. I have so many antique cups and saucers that I have collected over the years that it is time for me to start giving them to my daughter and granddaughter.


    I have many of my mother's silver pieces...things that I never use like salt and pepper cellars with tiny spoons in crystal as well as decorative items that held pats of butter, etc. Mother grew up in Asheville, poor and often hungry. By the time I came along and the other three were out of the nest my parents could afford to travel around the country and mother just loved going through stores and flea markets. She was a wonderful seamstress and great cook. I credit all of my talents to her. I actually write about her in the intro about myself on my website.


    You house sounds wonderful. And trust me, Charlotte used to be a small town with affordable homes but not anymore. We do have lovely historical areas that have limitation on the footprint of the bungalows but they do tear them down and build up. It's crazy that they sit on a postage stamp with street parking and sell for over a million. There are still very lovely areas to the city with stately homes and large lawns that are preserved and those neighborhoods are highly coveted. When an older person passes away, the property is scooped up generally without ever hitting the MLS and often torn down for a new home.


    I live in suburbia with one neighborhood after another continuing to encroach upon all the farm land that used to be. So much has developed since we built our home 17.5 years ago. I like having the convenience but we are competing with new construction that appears to be endless.

    I'm afraid that Raleigh, our state capital has received more than their fair share of the highway money and Charlotte while the largest city in our state has suffered with a lack of rail and highways are constantly stressed with excessive traffic.


    Thus is progress....