Admin. Suddenly Changed Visa Requirements For Bahamian Evacuees?

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)
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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

The cruelty seems to be the point.

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Ziemia(6a)

Seems like a last minute change in policy. Guess it comes after seeing the refugees gathered up for evacuating. Otherwise, wouldn't they have waited a few weeks?

Guess we will learn when the decision was made and announced.

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chase_gw

The reporting I am hearing is that the the Customs and Border people have been working hard with the Bahamian government to get people moved out quickly. Evidently this was a call made by the ferry operator and NOT supported by the Customs and Border people.

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Carro

What policy allowed people without visas to come to the U.S.? Did Trump or anyone lift that requirement?

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Carro

"the rule". Point to "the rule".

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Carro

And now for the facts...

"CBP was notified of a vessel preparing to embark an unknown number of passengers in Freeport and requested that the operator of the vessel coordinate with U.S. and Bahamian government officials in Nassau before departing The Bahamas," CBP said in a statement Sunday.

"Everyone who arrives to the United States from another country must present themselves to a CBP officer for inspection at an official CBP Port of Entry. All person must possess valid identity and travel documents," the agency said. "CBP has a Preclearance operation in Nassau. CBP is committed to carrying out our duties with professionalism and efficiency -- facilitating lawful international travel and trade."

On its website, CBP says visas are not required for Bahamian residents flying into the US from the Bahamas if they also meet other criteria, including possessing a valid passport or travel documents, having no criminal record and carrying a police certificate issued within the past six months."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/as-evacuations-continue-hundreds-of-bahamians-were-told-to-get-off-a-ferry-headed-to-the-us/ar-AAH1to3?li=BBnbklE



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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

Canadians don’t need a visa to visit the US either, just a passport.

Why would the ferry operator have the authority to make that decision? (Edited for clarity)

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maifleur01

I do wonder how many have lost all of those documents along with is the government offices functioning enough to even issue duplicates.

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graywings123(7)

and requested that the operator of the vessel coordinate with U.S. and Bahamian government officials in Nassau before departing The Bahamas,"


So, that doesn't clear up anything. Surely they were not expecting the boat to detour through New Providence (Nassau) on their way from Freeport to the US in order to get pre-clearance.


CBP should have just let the boat leave Freeport, get to Florida, and sort it out there.

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patriciae_gw(07)

People evacuating from a place where they have lost everything and there is nothing are being required to come up with additional documents that there is no one to issue to them and no place to live and nothing to eat or drink while they wait for no one to process the stuff they cant get.

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jerzeegirl(9b)

We are watching a humanitarian tragedy unfold 200 miles off our coast and we can't allow some leeway for these people who have lost everything?

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elvis

I must have missed the part where the hurricane victims couldn't evac into a safe location within their own country.

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chase_gw

Yes apparently you did Elvis....

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

Good neighbours help each other in time of crisis. I truly hope the facts eventually show that no new policy was introduced and it was all just a big misunderstanding.

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Rina

I hope so too, Miss Lindsey. The idea that the door is slammed shut to people in such dire need is unspeakable. But these days no level of inhumanity surprises me.

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chase_gw

The Customs and border official said that they should not have been asked to disembark that there is an operation set up Stateside to help these people with the paperwork and process.

Also heard a Bahamian parliamentarian say that the aid from the States has been amazing...credit where credit is due. On this one I think it was just a screw up primarily on the part of the ferry operator...miscommunication at worst.

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Carro

Time to unwad.


"Stephen Silvestri, acting port director for CBP, said no one in the U.S. government ordered the people's removal.

"If those folks did stay on the boat and arrived, we would have processed them, vetted them and worked within our laws and protocols and done what we, you know, we had to do to facilitate them," he said. "I think it was a decision, a business decision by (boat owner) Balearia to remove them. They were not ordered off the boat by any U.S. government entity." ..."

Dorian: Bahamas evacuees wrongly removed from ship amid visa confusion

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Andie

Trump struck an entirely different tone just now in his chopper talk. Sounded like his famous Mexican elevator speech.

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Kathy

It sounds as if someone gave the ferry captain some wrong orders saying they needed visas. Maybe John Barron?

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jerzeegirl(9b)

Also heard a Bahamian parliamentarian say that the aid from the States has been amazing...credit where credit is due.

Too bad that couldn't be said about Puerto Rico.

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Carro

Too bad that couldn't be said about Puerto Rico.

Nonsense. How many billions has PR received? Quick, go and look it up.


ps...let the deflection games begin now that yet another thread has been debunked.

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Kathy

Carro, maybe you should look up what Puerto Rico actually received vs what they were approved by Congress.

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jerzeegirl(9b)

Don't nonsense me.....I'm tired of the noise machine.

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graywings123(7)

I'm not backing down from what I wrote. The CBP statement didn't clarify the issue. Preclearance in Nassau doesn't help someone in Freeport.


The Bahamians are moving some of the people to other islands. But Freeport is closer to West Palm Beach than it is to Nassau.

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Mimou-GW


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bleusblue2

chase_gw

The Customs and border official said that they should not have been asked to disembark that there is an operation set up Stateside to help these people with the paperwork and process.

Also heard a Bahamian parliamentarian say that the aid from the States has been amazing...credit where credit is due. On this one I think it was just a screw up primarily on the part of the ferry operator...miscommunication at worst.

~~~~

this makes sense. Again I notice that the Right here starts off with trying to find some sense in what appears to be a cruel situation. Such as --

"What policy allowed people without visas to come to the U.S.? Did Trump or anyone lift that requirement?"

Do I misinterpret the meaning here?


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Carro

this makes sense. Again I notice that the Right here starts off with trying to find some sense in what appears to be a cruel situation. Such as --

"What policy allowed people without visas to come to the U.S.? Did Trump or anyone lift that requirement?"

Do I misinterpret the meaning here?

No, but you also didn't get an answer, except from me, who clarified that this was a local handling, with no order coming from Trump's administration.

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maifleur01

Much of that relief effort is from private entities such as the various cruise lines diverting their ships to bring supplies and people then taking people away from the most damaged areas.

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Andie

"Early Monday afternoon, acting Customs and Border Protection head Mark Morgan offered some peace of mind to Bahamians seeking humanitarian relief in the United States in the wake of Hurricane Dorian, following the news that some were turned away for not having visas.

“This is a humanitarian mission,” Morgan assured. “If your life is in jeopardy and you’re in the Bahamas … you’re going to be allowed to come to the United States, whether you have travel documents or not.” He said the processing would be handled expeditiously.

Then President Trump offered a very different message.

In a later Q&A with reporters, Trump emphasized that “very bad people” could exploit the process and warned against welcoming Bahamians.

“We have to be very careful,” Trump said. “Everybody needs totally proper documentation. Because, look, the Bahamas had some tremendous problems with people going to the Bahamas that weren’t supposed to be there.”

The president added, “I don’t want to allow people that weren’t supposed to be in the Bahamas to come into the United States — including some very bad people and very bad gang members.”

So, shortly after Morgan said people didn’t need to have documents, Trump said they did. And shortly after Morgan emphasized a quick process, Trump suggested it would need to be very thorough.

The president’s comments shouldn’t be a surprise. This is his default response, after all, to accepting people into the United States on humanitarian grounds. He did it during the 2016 campaign, arguing against welcoming refugees from Syria and even calling for a complete ban on Muslim immigration. When he came into office, he privately railed against a deal between the Obama administration and Australia on taking in other refugees

More recently, this has been Trump’s attitude toward asylum seekers, suggesting that gang members and even terrorists are exploiting the process to gain access to the United States.

Trump emphasized Monday that, “believe it or not,” many parts of the Bahamas were not hit hard by Dorian, suggesting the humanitarian need isn’t that great. The capital of Nassau and southern parts of the Bahamas sustained significantly less damage.

His comments, notably, suggest not just that some refugees are gang members but that they might pose other problems. He even seems to suggest that people might have gone to the Bahamas so they could pose as refugees to gain admission to the United States. Trump has often spoken in this manner about potential terrorists. It’s not clear whether he was saying they went to the Bahamas before the hurricane or somehow got there afterward.

The Bahamas, notably, contain many people of Haitian descent -- as many as 1 in 10 residents -- and they tend to be among the island nation’s poorest residents. Trump has in the past privately referred to Haiti as a “shithole country" while deriding protections for immigrants from it.

Other Republicans — particularly in Florida — have taken a more compassionate tone when it comes to welcoming Bahamians. “As hundreds of thousands of Bahamians seek refuge or start to rebuild after Hurricane Dorian, we cannot have the kind of confusion that occurred last night in Freeport,” Sen. Rick Scott (R-Fla.) said. Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) has encouraged Trump to waive some visa requirements."


https://beta.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/09/trump-contradicts-cbp-head-bahamian-refugees-argues-they-might-have-been-infiltrated-by-very-bad-people/?noredirect=on

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maifleur01

Apparently it came from the horse's mouth.

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chase_gw

Just heard Trump speak on this.....what a jerk. I don't think he intervened at first but clearly he has decided to now....Miller much!

So much for American values.........Trump supporters ...you own him.....or he owns you .......same difference,

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maifleur01

I keep wondering what will happen if this country has another major natural event similar to Katrina or even a major earthquake. Will the people from the area of the disaster be turned back into the disaster area because there might be some criminals among them? Seeing what happened in New Orleans when people tried to walk out but were stopped and turned back ordering it on a large scale could happen.

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Carro

chase_gw

Just heard Trump speak on this.....what a jerk. I don't think he intervened at first but clearly he has decided to now....Miller much!

So much for American values.........Trump supporters ...you own him.....or he owns you .......same difference,

Chase, here in AMERICA, slavery was abolished a very long time ago. Much bloodshed.

Look it up in case you haven't heard about it.

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chase_gw

One type was abolished........another has taken its place.

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Kathy

Slavery was abolished and incarceration took its place. Another form of slavery.

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margaritadina

''

elvis

I must have missed the part where the hurricane victims couldn't evac into a safe location within their own country.

''

They can. Smaller islands were not touched/almost not touched by Dorian.

Why doesn't GB send cruise ships with free everything available to evacuate people who were until very recently colonized by it? And evacuate them to GB - cruising is very nice, people would enjoy it, they would have entertainment, nice food, luxurious rooms and 24/7 service.

But America is bad, sure.


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margaritadina

''

patriciae_gw(07)

People evacuating from
a place where they have lost everything and there is nothing are being
required to come up with additional documents that there is no one to
issue to them and no place to live and nothing to eat or drink while
they wait for no one to process the stuff they cant get.

''

Have you seen the reports on crime levels after Dorian? Where do you want to keep them until things will be sorted out? On a boat? Women with children and elderly should be evacuated, the rest should stay until things are sorted out there.

GB sent help and Canada, too. All supermarkets are totally looted, so there is food and water until additional help arrives.

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maifleur01

Looking at the pictures I wonder if the supermarkets had walls.

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patriciae_gw(07)

When we were attacked Canada took our planes and our citizens without finding out if they had criminal connections. They asked no question but simply allowed our flights to land safely in their country. They took care of those citizens until they could find their way home. Those of you who think that leaving people in crisis in crisis because you don't see the humanity in doing that? Don't be on an airplane when the next crisis strikes because if I were Canada I would say good luck.

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Carro

patriciae_gw

When we were attacked Canada took our planes and our citizens without finding out if they had criminal connections. They asked no question but simply allowed our flights to land safely in their country.

LOL, thanks for housing a couple hundred people for a short period of time and saying goodbye when they left. That was truly lovely.

Oh, are an Americans there permanently?

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Carro

I'm betting every single person on those planes on 9/11 had identification which was verifiable.

Had Canada been getting a plane or 5 full of unknown denizens of another country, they would be well within their rights to detain every single one of them until their identities could be verified.

Canada and GB combined aren't doing what the USA is doing. All you do is assume that America should absorb 100% of the cost and 100% of the people.

Step up and stop making excuses and expecting the USA to solve all your problems.

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Carro

They can. Smaller islands were not touched/almost not touched by Dorian.

Why doesn't GB send cruise ships with free everything available to evacuate people who were until very recently colonized by it? And evacuate them to GB - cruising is very nice, people would enjoy it, they would have entertainment, nice food, luxurious rooms and 24/7 service.

But America is bad, sure.

Exactly, mararitadina. All the Canadians and Brits can do is complain about how Trump has the audacity to want to vet people before they can be admitted to the USA. So they stand aside and let America through to do all the heavy lifting, while they judge us for wanting to protect our own citizens from anyone dangerous.

Pfft...step up and do your share, Bahamas and every British colony!

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maifleur01

Hate to break it to people who are stating all of the Bahamas were not touched by Dorian. I actually looked at the NOAA hurricane website. There was no place in the Bahamas or neighboring islands that were not touched by Dorian. News always shows the most dramatic pictures but all the islands had damage. These two islands had the worst of the storm because the eye wall where the highest winds were located passed over them. The other islands also had the high storm surge and winds over 100mph.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

If it wasn’t a problem for Bahamians to travel by ferry with nothing but a passport and police record check before the hurricane why would it be a problem now?

They didn’t become criminals just because a hurricane hit. And they could potentially have made that same trip with no problem two weeks ago so why not now? I have a friend from the Bahamas and when she visited there this summer she and her family popped over to Florida with no visas and no worries. They didn’t turn into criminal elements when their house blew away.

I am truly horrified by the reactions from some here. To automatically suspect that these people are just trying to get to the US to somehow take advantage of you is despicable. For shame.

There will be another day when the United States is rocked by another enormous tragedy, man made or natural. I hope to God our allies show more grace than the fringe posters on this thread.

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elvis

There was no place in the Bahamas or neighboring islands that were not touched by Dorian. News always shows the most dramatic pictures but all the islands had damage

Happily,mai: wrong.

The Ministry of Tourism & Aviation said an all-clear has been given for New Providence Island, home to the capital city of Nassau, as well as Paradise Island, which lies to its north. That said, the agency said flooding and power outages persist in parts of Nassau.

Atlantis Paradise Island, a resort that lies somewhat inland, reported via tweet Sunday that it was not in storm's path: "Our guests, the marine animals in our care and our team members are all safe and secure."

Baha Mar, another mega resort located on the north shore of the island, reported via its website that it, too, had been spared and is "open and fully operational."

Warwick Paradise Island, an adults-only all-inclusive resort near the southwest shore of the same island, also reported via its Instagram page Sunday night that it had sustained no damage from the storm.

Airport status:Lynden Pindling International Airport (NAS), the airport serving Nassau, was open Tuesday, according to its website. However, an alert posted on its homepage stated, "There have been significant flight cancellations and as such, travelers are asked to contact their respective airlines for further updates." It also said phone service at the airport had been "intermittent."

Port status: Nassau's ports are open and fully operational, the tourism ministry said.

Out Islands

According to the Ministry of Tourism, Eleuthera, which lies east of Nassau, has also been given the all-clear. The same goes for Andros Island, to the west.

Meanwhile, the following islands have been largely unaffected so far: the Exumas, Cat Island, San Salvador, Rum Cay, Long Island, Acklins/Crooked Island, Ragged Island, Mayaguana and Inagua.

The Ministry of Tourism's bulletin also noted many hotels on the Out Islands traditionally close for the fall season after Labor Day and instructed people staying there to check with their hotel directly.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/destinations/2019/09/03/hurricane-dorian-how-popular-bahamas-destinations-fared/2196084001/

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

I stand by my original post and the contents of those tweets. The tweets are straightforward reporting, and I was asking an obvious question, which looks to have been answered.

Hopefully such a thing won't happen again.

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Ziemia(6a)

Part 1

“If those folks did stay on the boat and arrived, we would have processed them, vetted them, and worked within our laws and protocols and done what we had to do to facilitate them,” a CBP official told WSVN journalist Brian Entin early Monday morning, calling it a “business decision” on the ferry company's part. “They were not ordered off the boat by any U.S. government entity.” CBP Acting Commissioner Mark Morgan then clarified in a press briefing Monday that all Bahamians would be allowed to come to the U.S., “whether you have travel documents or not.”

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Ziemia(6a)

Part 2

Of course, that moment of compassion did not last long before the president intervened. Not one to let people think his administration was going to start letting in immigrants all willy-nilly, President Donald Trump clarified to reporters Monday that those fleeing the Bahamas would only be accepted into the U.S. with “totally proper documentation.” And this being Trump, the president naturally framed his xenophobia as a way to keep out the supposedly “very bad people” fleeing the Category 5-level devastation. “We have to be very careful,” Trump said. “Look, the Bahamas had some tremendous problems with people going to the Bahamas that weren't supposed to be there. I don't want to allow people that weren't supposed to be in the Bahamas to come in to the United States, including some very bad people and some very bad gang members and some very very bad drug dealers.” (The president may be referring to the Bahamas' large population of Haitian immigrants, who have faced xenophobia in the Bahamas and a stigma that has reportedly made them particularly vulnerable in Dorian's wake.) Trump instead touted how the U.S. government has been transporting affected Bahamians to areas of the Bahamas that were not affected, rather than bringing them to American shores. “We'll see what happens,” he said about the recovery efforts.


https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/09/trump-hurricane-dorian-bahamas-immigrants-very-bad-people

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

Should read : “anyone would *look* for excuses...”

can’t edit

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elvis

Lindsey, I didn't try to "prove you wrong", nobody can do that. This is how you feel, and that's that. It's okay!

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Janie

His paranoia is out of control.

President Trump told reporters that we “have to be very careful” when letting people from the Bahamas into the United States, saying that “everybody needs totally proper documentation.”

“I don’t want to allow people that weren’t supposed to be in the Bahamas to come into the United States — including some very bad people and very bad gang members,” Trump said.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) responded to Trump’s remarks, saying she was “deeply disappointed by this display of callous disregard for human suffering.”

I suspect Trump finds human suffering exciting. He must, since he's caused so much.

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Carro

If it's paranoid for a President to want any and all aliens vetted before they're admitted to the USA, I'll take that any day of the week and twice on Sundays.


Say, what's Canada's policy on bringing in refugees without any documentation whatsoever? How about GB's?


Nancy Pelosi is a twisted hack who will say anything contrary to Trump, even if it goes against National security.


FACT: America is not turning away people without proper documentation, but we will detain them until we vet them. Anything shy of that is dereliction of duty.


I don't care what any foreigner's got to say about it. It's none of their business or concern.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

No Carro, on this one you’re wrong.

The fact is that somehow policy was changed and new requirements were made for Bahamians crossing by ferry to Florida. That happened.

Customs and Border Patrol said that was a mistake and people should have been allowed to cross with their typical documentation and that systems are in place in Florida to process those people. That happened.

Essentially a ferry operator either went rogue or was convinced by someone that he was not allowed to let Bahamians on his ferry without certain documents that they never needed before. We know that didn’t come from CBP.

Trump caught wind of it and instead of supporting CBP and upholding the established rules, he basically tried to set new policy unilaterally by saying a random ferry operator was *correct* and by extension CBP was wrong.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

I'm not so sure the info did not come from CBP. Just listened to a US official admit there is a lot of "confusion". Why? How confusing is it that people desperately need to get out of that place, many, if not most have family here waiting for them,and they have police documents attesting to their lack of criminal records?

Plausible deniability?

And some of the lovely people on this board give the impression that if their neighbor came knocking on their door fleeing a burning house, they would slam it in their face.

Or does it all depend on how dark-skinned a person is?

And claiming to take offense at someone's choice of words is an old tactic for sidestepping the actual topic at hand. So now let's all discuss somebody being offended, shall we?

No thanks.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

I see admitting that there is confusion is a diplomatic way of not throwing anyone under the bus. The person interviewed is too honourable to say “so and so f—-d up.”

Like what PreziePoo should have said: “it’s a high pressure situation with lots of moving pieces and sometimes miscommunications will occur. The policy has not been changed and we have systems in place on the Florida side to quickly process all temporary refugees. Thank you and God bless.”

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Houzz isn't letting me edit, for some reason. I want to add that confusion seems to be the S.O.P. for this administration all the time.

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bleusblue2

Andie

It’s sickening to me that anyone would for excuses not to help those in crisis. There’s no grey area here.

~~~~

yes -- the default position here is always to support those who do-not-help

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Rina

Conversations (a polite word) like this make me very sad, sitting as I do a long way away from all of you. But people are people, and the level of callousness I see on these threads is probably no different from what I would see at home, if a situation like this, and a thread like this, existed here. Okay, given the US president's level of support at the election that brought him to power, it's probably no more than about a third of the population, perhaps a bit less ... but that is a heck of a lot of people.

The only conceivable decent reaction to something like the Bahama tragedy is "what can we do to help?". It does seem to me that the incident was the result of a muddle, but then, as has been pointed out, Trump leapt on to the side of "foreigners are very dangerous, unless they're Norwegian" without bothering to find out what the situation really was. So now the faithful have their marching orders.

We have had a lot of violence in S Africa over the past few weeks, directed at foreigners -- immigrants -- mostly people who run businesses, it seems, even businesses that employ S Africans. Never mind, they are the "other" so any difficulties "we" are experiencing are their fault. Foreigners are dangerous, foreigners take our jobs, foreigners are criminals. The details are different. The atavistic tendencies are the same.

Heck, what kind of species are we, to think like that?

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adoptedbyhounds

Here's information about what documents are needed as of Sept 9, 2019.


https://www.dhs.gov/news/2019/09/09/visa-requirements-bahamas-citizens-traveling-united-states

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Andie

The same racist words that he uses to disparage those seeking asylum from Mexico and Central America. And not an ounce of proof.

“Everybody needs totally proper documentation because the — look, the
Bahamas had some tremendous problems with people going to the Bahamas
that weren’t supposed to be there,” Trump said. “I don’t want to allow
people that weren’t supposed to be in the Bahamas to come into the
United States, including some very bad people and some very bad gang
members and some very, very bad drug dealers. So we are going to be
very, very strong on that.”




"Democrats and Republicans from Florida urged the administration to clear up the confusion on Monday.

“We need to get to bottom of this as soon as possible,” U.S. Rep.Donna Shalala, D-Miami, said. “However, I do believe that turning away our Bahamian neighbors from temporarily entering the US after they have lost everything in Hurricane Dorian is unconscionable and goes against everything our country stands for."

Republican Sens. Marco Rubio and Rick Scott urged the administration to clarify visa requirements for Bahamians. They both want visa requirements waived for Dorian survivors."

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Andie



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HU9999

I am truly horrified by the reactions from some here. To automatically suspect that these people are just trying to get to the US to somehow take advantage of you is despicable. For shame.

Horrified, but not surprised. They are Trump. In every way.

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Joaniepoanie

There’d be no problem letting people in, with or without documents, if a hurricane hit Iceland.

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bleusblue2

Andie posted:


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~~~~

You know, Andie, when these individual tweets were posted in HT,

those on the right always came up with explanations for the President's

tweets. Nothing shocks or offends them except Obama & Hillary's emails.

Your question is rhetorical, right?

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margaritadina

''

Ziemia(6a)

Part 2
Of course, that moment of compassion did not last long before the
president intervened. Not one to let people think his administration was
going to start letting in immigrants all willy-nilly, President Donald Trump
clarified to reporters Monday that those fleeing the Bahamas would only
be accepted into the U.S. with “totally proper documentation.”

''

Immigrants?



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Carro

Oh, you are horrified? You are Canadian, right? Take them.

Don't you just love how the Canadians do a fraction of what America does and spends a pittance compared to the American taxpayers, and they have the temerity to stand on the sidelines critiquing everything we do?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

I am an American. Living in Canada. Still have family in the US. Still pay taxes in the US. Mother to American citizens.

Do try to remember, no one wants to read my life story every single time I post something critical of the US.

Where did you immigrate from margaritadina? I remember you saying people should come to the US the right way, like you did.

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bleusblue2

miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I am an American. Living in Canada. Still have family in the US. Still pay taxes in the US. Mother to American citizens.

Do try to remember, no one wants to read my life story every single time I post something critical of the US.

Where did you immigrate from margaritadina? I remember you saying people should come to the US the right way, like you did.

~~~~

a lot of meanness going on here. I don't understand why -- for instance -- why pick out the word, "immigrants"? Was that the wrong word to use? I'd say so. But it isn't so hard to decipher what was really meant. Thanks for your input miss lindsey.

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Prim Rose

LOL, thanks for housing a couple hundred people for a short period of time and saying goodbye when they left. That was truly lovely.

And this ^^^^^ is why fewer people choose to participate on HT.

Maybe if some didn't aim to write in every white box they come across and took a moment to think first, but nah ......

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

The monetary donation *per capita* from Canada to relief efforts in the Bahamas is almost twice that of the United States. And there are Canadian military and search and rescue teams on the ground too.

And of course, sharing such a long border and being within a short ferry trip of each other means that it is entirely conceivable that at some point Americans might have to seek refuge in Canada so when that day comes if we are all still bandying words here we can analyze whether or not Canada has been welcoming enough.

Like on 9/11. And if you think that was a small gesture or it didn’t have huge impact you are dreadfully mistaken. Remember, the hijackers had proper identification and legitimate boarding passes and no one knew if there were other properly identified hijackers legitimately aboard other planes. I was not living in Canada then and I remember the overwhelming gratitude and relief I felt that day when I heard Canada was allowing planes to land. That was not a foregone conclusion by any means.

I know that the vocal minority here does not speak for the huge, huge majority of American conservatives because I do still have deep ties to the States and not one conservative I know would ever say or think the things that are expressed on this thread.

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Prim Rose

I shudder to think of what Canadians make of this country with those overload voices of ignorance and hate.

We've been friends for too long, though, and intelligent people know that this too shall pass.

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margaritadina

''

miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I am an American. Living in Canada. Still have family in the US. Still pay taxes in the US. Mother to American citizens.

Do try to remember, no one wants to read my life story every single time I post something critical of the US.

Where did you immigrate from margaritadina? I remember you saying people should come to the US the right way, like you did.
''

So, who are you, Canadian or American? You can't be both.

''

Carro

Oh, you are horrified? You are Canadian, right? Take them.

Don't you just love how the Canadians do a fraction of what America
does and spends a pittance compared to the American taxpayers, and they
have the temerity to stand on the sidelines critiquing everything we do?

''

I know, right?



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Prim Rose

God bless the Canadian's "temerity"!!! This is one of the funniest posts ever.

The "temerity" of those dang Canadians! LOL!

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Carro

How are those irregular border crossings being tolerated in Canada? Ya got open borders yet?

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Carro

How many Bahamians has Canada taken in? How many without any papers?

Let's compare notes! Purrfect.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

1 hour ago

I am an American. Living in Canada.

? Is this a difficult concept to understand?

When we are talking about a tragedy that takes place on Canada’s coast we can talk about how many of their neighbours they have taken in.

In the meantime, Canadians (per capita) have sent more of their tax dollars to relief efforts in the Bahamas than Americans have. Almost twice as much in fact.

Of course, since I pay income tax in both countries (as will my children unless and until they renounce one of their citizenships) my tax dollars have been sent TWICE. Does that mean I get twice a much of a voice in this discussion?

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margaritadina

''

bleusblue2


a lot of meanness going on here. I don't understand why -- for instance -- why pick out the word, "immigrants"?
Was that the wrong word to use? I'd say so. But it isn't so hard to
decipher what was really meant.

''

I can explain. When Trump just became the president he raised a question why victims of the natural disaster still live in America <>20 years later when they were on a temporary humanitarian visa and supposed to leave after 2 years when their visas expired. Dems were up on arms that these people are here to stay no matter what law they broke and Trump is an inhumane bastard.

I found it interesting that you used the word ''immigrant'' - either a freudian slip or a wise foresight.


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margaritadina

''

miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I am an American. Living in Canada.

? Is this a difficult concept to understand?

''

Yes.


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margaritadina

''

In the meantime, Canadians (per capita) have sent more of their tax
dollars to relief efforts in the Bahamas than Americans have. Almost
twice as much in fact.

''

Good. America is devastated by Dorian and need Canadian help. The last time I heard Canada sent personnel and half a million dollars.

''

Of course, since I pay income tax in both countries (as will my
children unless and until they renounce one of their citizenships) my
tax dollars have been sent TWICE. Does that mean I get twice a much of a
voice in this discussion?

''

You already do. But you are welcome to post as much as you want, indeed.


Houzz is fussy again, doesn't allow redacting posts.

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Ziemia(6a)

It is very easy for me to understand an American living, working, and raising a family in Canada.

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Ziemia(6a)

Does anyone have a map of the ferry routes from Bahamas to any part of Canada?

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Carro

So how many Bahamians has Canada taken in?



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Carro

Will Pajama Boy tell them they have to come in the "regular" way?

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bleusblue2

^^^ no discussion at all. Why so bitter?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So we're right next door, so to speak, and nearby refugees should have to travel all the way through, over or around the USA, to get to refuge? What?

A lovely, kind hearted person indeed!

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elvis

Actually, she is. If you need the shirt off her back, just ask.

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maifleur01

Just so it will not surprise some on here starting in 2021 Americans will again need a visa to visit most of Europe. There are a few exceptions but very few. I did wonder what the requirements before that September declaration were in regards to if a visa was needed. Everything I have seen mentions no visa but a requirement to clear through a Preclearance facility in either Nassau or Freeport.

https://www.etias.us/

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Seems like any shirt giving would be conditional on whether I were a US citizen...

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Delilah66

““We have to be very careful,” Trump said. “Everybody needs totally proper documentation. Because, look, the Bahamas had some tremendous problems with people going to the Bahamas that weren’t supposed to be there.”

The president added, “I don’t want to allow people that weren’t supposed to be in the Bahamas to come into the United States — including some very bad people and very bad gang members.”

I‘m late to this thread and haven’t read all the way through. Reading the above though made me realize that if he would just STFU, the mess would get straightened out legally and without the unnecessary drama and hate. Why does he feel the need to say anything more than platitudes (eg, so-and-so or such-and-such department is ensuring the US helps the Bahamian people in accordance with blah blah blah)? Then let the reporters go to so-and-so or such-and-such department to get the deets. He should be giving US citizens positive assurances not riling up fears. HNMP!

But America is bad, sure.”

No. trump is bad.


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HU9999

How can it be hard to understand an American citizen that is living in Canada? Too many words? What?

---

I know that the vocal minority here does not speak for the huge, huge majority of American conservatives

Thanks for the reminder. It's easy to forget when reading the hate filled posts by conservatives here. On the other hand, they do speak for the party of Trump. They are Trump in every way.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

margaritadina

13 hours ago

''

In the meantime, Canadians (per capita) have sent more of their tax
dollars to relief efforts in the Bahamas than Americans have. Almost
twice as much in fact.

''

Good.

———-

I agree, it is good. It is great in fact.

I’m proud to be associated with and contributing to two such giving and generous countries.

Do I wish all other Americans felt the same pride? Yes.

People who are proud of their country don’t go around tearing other countries down in order to make themselves look better.

Like I tell my kids: you don’t make your own candle shine brighter when you blow out someone else’s.

//stepping off soap box

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chase_gw

"America is recovering from it's own devastation from Dorian and Canada ..... ????? Exactly"

Guess your preferred news source stopped covering Dorion once it crossed into Canada. Our East coast took a big hit.

However, that would never stop us from helping out our neighbours in need. There is no doubt in my mind that we will welcome any Bahamian refugee who may need or want to take shelter here.

We will also do it with compassion just like we welcomed those thousands of stranded passengers in Nova Scotia, Newfoundland and other locations across Canada 18 years ago today. There was no screening" no document checks no questions. They were welcomed into the homes of people who had not much themselves, they were fed, housed, comforted and many friendships were forged.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

And now it's being reported that a Bahamian girl was separated from her family and put in a shelter:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article234933792.html?fbclid=IwAR30gDOrzl9DMYhNv2Vl4x3H9G-AL6RxQaQcO0tKIx-69G8vb1ghvkW7n7A

"A 12-year-old Bahamian girl was separated from family at a South Florida airport after fleeing the destruction of Hurricane Dorian and was sent by U.S. Customs officials to a Miami Gardens shelter for abused or abandoned children.

Kaytora Paul, 12 — accompanied by her godmother — had flown from Nassau to West Palm Beach Sunday night after being evacuated from the hurricane-ravaged Abaco island. However, when the two landed in Florida, U.S. Customs and Border Protection transferred them over to Miami International Airport and ultimately separated the pair because the woman wasn’t the child’s biological parent, the girl’s mother, Katty Paul, told the Miami Herald Tuesday.

Officials also refused to give the girl’s biological aunt, who had come to pick her up at the airport, custody. The young evacuee is currently being housed at His House Children’s Home in Miami Gardens, under the custody of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. His House is a facility used by the U.S. government to house unaccompanied migrant children. The girl would be considered an “unaccompanied minor” because she wasn’t physically accompanied by her biological mother or father....."


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elvis

Sounds sensible.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

elvis you read the article and that process seems sensible to you?

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Rina

Sounds disgusting, to me, but then one would expect no less under The Leader's guidance.

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HU9999

Like I said - they are Trump. In every way. So yes, it's sensible to them.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

We must have different definitions of 'sensible'...

Or that alt. def. of 'sensible' only makes sense if one views a family like that as not fully human, as somehow threatening ?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Putting on my nitpicking hat for a moment: it doesn't 'sound' like anything at all, unless you're using text to voice.

On 2nd thought maybe I shouldn't be wearing a hat full of nits...

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bleusblue2

Sorry -- I've tried to edit that post above 3 times -- can't get through to remove the huge blue square!

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

@ bleusblue2: I copy the entire post, then delete it and paste it in a new comment, then edit that before submitting.

HTH

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elvis

Why does it say lindsey-forstbauer?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

Because it’s my profile pic that got copied and pasted into the comment, blown up.

I use my real live name in my profile.

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Prim Rose

Why did you need to use her real name, elvis?

As though you didn't know why her name was shown.

Miss Lindsey, do you want me to flag it to remove it?

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

I do appreciate the concern Prim Rose and honestly, I don’t have any problem with anyone knowing my real identity. It shows up on the thread with any discussions I start, too. That enormous blue box is sure annoying though. I know bleusblue2 isn’t trolling me and that’s really all that matters to me.

I am still interested in what part of the Bahamian “unaccompanied” minor refugee process sounds reasonable to elvis though.

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bleusblue2

(reposting yesterdays comments)

elvis


Sounds sensible.


miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)


elvis you read the article and that process seems sensible to you?


~~~~

Why does "it" ALWAYS sound sensible to the RW on this forum? If my own child were in that situation and Aunt Agatha came looking for her I would want my child OUT of that orphanage/center/tent and with her own family. Yes, go through a procedure, that goes without saying. But "sounds sensible" (?) -- uh uh.

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studio10001

'Getting her child back won’t be easy. The mother, although having arrived in Miami on Tuesday, can’t pick her up. Paul was told she had to go through the process of applying to be her daughter’s sponsor with HHS. In order to get custody of her daughter, Paul would have to collect documentation that would prove she’s her mother — like a birth certificate, government identification as well as proof of address. In the past, this process has taken anywhere from weeks to months.

To make matters more challenging, Paul says U.S. officials told her that she can only stay in the U.S. until Sept. 26.'


Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article234933792.html?fbclid=IwAR30gDOrzl9DMYhNv2Vl4x3H9G-AL6RxQaQcO0tKIx-69G8vb1ghvkW7n7A#storylink=cpy

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Maybe the cruelty isn't the point, but that doesn't make it any less cruel.

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Rina

It's quite possible that everything is being done according to regulations. In which case, the regulations are rubbish -- at least in so far as they cater for a situation like this. Please, if you can, bombard the relevant bodies, insisting that they be changed to cater for a humanitarian response. And that this particular situation now be treated urgently as though it involved actual human beings. My heart bleeds for this mother and her child. What sins have they committed?

ETA to add the sentence starting "And that ...".

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elvis

"A 12-year-old Bahamian girl was separated from family at a South Florida airport after fleeing the destruction of Hurricane Dorian and was sent by U.S. Customs officials to a Miami Gardens shelter for abused or abandoned children.

Kaytora Paul, 12 — accompanied by her godmother — had flown from Nassau to West Palm Beach Sunday night after being evacuated from the hurricane-ravaged Abaco island. However, when the two landed in Florida, U.S. Customs and Border Protection transferred them over to Miami International Airport and ultimately separated the pair because the woman wasn’t the child’s biological parent, the girl’s mother, Katty Paul, told the Miami Herald Tuesday.

Officials also refused to give the girl’s biological aunt, who had come to pick her up at the airport, custody. The young evacuee is currently being housed at His House Children’s Home in Miami Gardens, under the custody of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. His House is a facility used by the U.S. government to house unaccompanied migrant children. The girl would be considered an “unaccompanied minor” because she wasn’t physically accompanied by her biological mother or father....."

@ lindsey: If the rules say that the child must be accompanied by her parent, yes, it's generally sensible to follow the rules, especially when it comes to child protection. This is for the child's protection against human traffickers. This is important, don't you agree?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Good grief! These are people fleeing a catastrophic event. How does such strict adherence to such a regulation make sense in this circumstance?

Unless the cruelty really is the point...

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

Incredible betrayal of what most Americans would want done in their name. There are extenuating circumstances and that should trigger different procedures to safeguard all children.

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studio10001

No, elvis, I don't. Authorities said they attempted to contact the family - well, family showed up at the airport and were turned away. The mother has arrived, and now has to apply??? Absolute bureaucratic nonsense. This is not a toddle being discussed - it is a 12yr old girl, perfectly able to identify her own relatives, even if the United States can't manage to. Both mother and child were required to have papers to enter the US. These papers identify them as having the same last name and the same address, a clean police recoed, and include their photos. Now, suddenly these papers, which were accepted as appropriate ID, are no longer appropriate ID. BS.

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Rina

I do think that, rather like a foul miasma, cruelty is the prevailing official zeitgeist in the US today. It reminds me of some very inadequate human beings I've known whose only way to puff up a damaged ego was to bully everyone they could. "I'm a big deal because I can do this to you."

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margaritadina

''

bleusblue2

elvis you read the article and that process seems sensible to you?


~~~~

Why does "it" ALWAYS sound sensible to the RW on this forum? If
my own child were in that situation and Aunt Agatha came looking for
her I would want my child OUT of that orphanage/center/tent and with her
own family. Yes, go through a procedure, that goes without saying. But
"sounds sensible" (?) -- uh uh.

''

I hope you don't have children.

If you have a bitter conflict with Aunt Agatha and she comes to take your kid, and your unaware of the conflict kid agrees to go with Aunt Agatha only to get killed by the auntie as revenge to you, whom would you blame for releasing a child? I am sure not yourself. You would blame authorities.


Actually, the procedure is in place for decades, why all the fuss NOW?



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studio10001

Because the procedure has entered a child into an endangered situation under the premise of removing her from one, and has also removed her right to speak for herself.

You forget that this Big Daddy has yet to find over 2,000 children that it kidnapped from their parents.

I enjoy that you think Big Daddy will know that you have a conflict with Aunt Aggie - and now better understand why Beto's fiction is gaining popularity.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Would coming up with a scenario like that qualify as setting up a strawman argument? Hypotheticals are so easy, since one controls all the variables.

However, this is NOT the case for this family, so that hypothetical is irrelevant

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

I’m all in favour of a sensible process.

The process described is not sensible.

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elvis

A child from Honduras watched a movie at a United States Border Patrol detention center in McAllen, Tex., in 2014.CreditCreditJohn Moore/Getty Images

The Senate’s Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations opened its inquiry after law enforcement officials uncovered a human trafficking ring in Marion, Ohio, last year. At least six children were lured to the United States from Guatemala with the promise of a better life, then were made to work on egg farms. The children, as young as 14, had been in federal custody before being entrusted to the traffickers.

“It is intolerable that human trafficking — modern-day slavery — could occur in our own backyard,” said Senator Rob Portman, Republican of Ohio and the chairman of the subcommittee. “But what makes the Marion cases even more alarming is that a U.S. government agency was responsible for delivering some of the victims into the hands of their abusers.”

In addition to the Marion cases, the investigation found evidence that 13 other children had been trafficked after officials handed them over to adults who were supposed to care for them during their immigration proceedings. An additional 15 cases exhibited some signs of trafficking.

The report also said that it was unclear how many of the approximately 90,000 children the agency had placed in the past two years fell prey to traffickers, including sex traffickers, because it does not keep track of such cases.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/us/politics/us-placed-immigrant-children-with-traffickers-report-says.html

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

“A child (standing on bare concrete) watched a movie (on a screen four feet above his head) at a United States Border Patrol Detention center (while an armed officer stood on guard nearby)...”

Sorry, it *is* a better optic than other recently published photos but it’s a far cry from the care a young child needs. And it was in 2014. A lot can change (for better or for worse) with the passing of 5 years and a new administration.

If his mom showed up at the door, and she was legally allowed to be in the US, why should he be prevented from going with her?

Why is the girl in the OP prevented from going with her legally present, loving family?

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elvis

I don't know all the details, lindsey. Neither do you.

As you say, the photo is from 2014. Is that a cage the Honduran child is confined to? Where's mama? Oh noes.

Here's the thing. The migration situation was a problem then, and it's still a problem now.

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studio10001

This isn't a migration problem, is it? Maybe that is why we are not seeing the same things at play here. Elvis, I could agree about this being more sensible were we talking about an immigration issue. This, though, is about families entering the US on visitation status, based on a history of eased requirements, that now must provide additional documentation at the very time they are least likely to have it. In the case of the young girl, it assumes she is a danger to herself by not allowing her to identify her own mother. That makes no sense at all, and I hope very much that the mother can find help to release her child quickly. As the president likes to say - they could do it in 15 minutes, if they wanted to.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

To follow up on what studio said, the family in the posted story are NOT in the United States illegally and they did absolutely nothing the “wrong way.”

I think we are seeing the next step in the slide toward fascism.

Up until this point we’ve been told that the reason children have to be separated from their parents is because they might not really be their parents, their parents shouldn’t have put them in harm’s way so they must have terrible parents, it’s more important to secure our borders than it is to focus on keeping families together, the act of crossing the border illegally in and of itself is a crime so anyone who does that is a criminal including the baby born yesterday, if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. I don’t happen to agree with that viewpoint, but I do understand why some might.

But here we have a story about a family who was invited to the US in a time of desperate need, who followed all the rules, who can quite easily prove that they are neither lying nor up to no good, who have correct identity documents: and the same thing has happened to them. A child separated from her family for no other reason than she came to the United States. A mother given the choice between becoming a criminal or abandoning her daughter in a detention center.

There is no reason that any American should accept this. There is no risk to any American from this family. There is no injustice in letting them be together because they broke no laws.

This is just another little step in the big march toward totalitarianism. I’m not exaggerating.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

The UN Committee on the Rights of the Childdefines unaccompanied minors and unaccompanied children as those "who have been separated from both parents and other relatives and are not being cared for by an adult who, by law or custom, is responsible for doing so." The Committee defines separated children as those "who have been separated from both parents, or from their previous legal or customary primary care-giver, but not necessarily from other relatives. These may, therefore, include children accompanied by other adult family members."[1]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unaccompanied_minor

This child is *not* an unaccompanied minor under international law.

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margaritadina

The God mother or the aunt are not legal or customary care-givers or parents of the girl. The mother will prove her been bio related to a girl and they will reunite soon.

Everything is been done right. Every country's authorities would have done the same. A storm in a glass of water.

Elvis, great picture of a child caged by Obama.

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maifleur01

I keep wondering at the status of children whose parents have died and no legal guardian has been appointed by the court. Those court appointments can take months. From comments on HT apparently they should be removed from the people who their parents designated as guardians and put in detention until the court can appoint a legal guardian.

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

How in the world do you know the aunt or god mother are not customary care givers of the child?

I am the regular and customary care giver for several of my nieces and nephews. In the case of a disaster it would be the most natural thing in the world for me to also include them in our evacuation. (In fact I have supplies in my emergency kits for 3-4 people more than are in my household, for this very reason.)

Unless you think I would be better off leaving them behind?

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maifleur01

The people designated to be guardians should be put in jail as child traffickers because they are not the parents according to some posters on here.

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studio10001

From your lips to the Miami Herald's ears... (or something like that!).

The family was reunited within four days.

Federal government officials told the Miami Herald that U.S. Department of Health and Human Services expedited the reunification process after the child’s case sparked public outrage. HHS told Florida officials that the U.S. government “was unaware the girl was a hurricane survivor” at the time of separation.

Because they thought the hurricane went to Alabama? Oooph. Why they bother with the stupid, stupid lie is another story, but hurray for public outrage!!


Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article235038087.html#storylink=cpy

'

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miss lindsey (stillmissesSophie,chase,maifleur,others(8a)

“HHS told Florida officials that the U.S. government “was unaware the girl was a hurricane survivor” at the time of separation.”

She just got off a plane from the Bahamas, with a Bahamian passport, and probably told the customs official that her reason for travel was “my house blew down” but yeah, whatevs HHS/US government.

Dig that hole a little deeper.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, entering this country without proper documentation is not a crime, and doesn't make any person doing so a criminal.

And that's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of law.

Our president and his minions would have us believe otherwise, because that helps them justify and continue their own illegal actions against such people.

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