Trump Administration Reverses Standards For Energy-Efficient Lightbulb

chijim

Use more power = need more coal. A win win



Trump Administration Reverses Standards For Energy-Efficient Lightbulbs

September 4, 20194:57 PM ET

Shannon Van Sant

The Energy Department is reversing energy-efficiency standards for lightbulbs that were set to take effect next year.

Charles Krupa/AP

The Trump administration is rolling back requirements for new, energy-efficient lightbulbs. The Energy Department announced the move on Wednesday, withdrawing standards that were to be put in place to make commonly used bulbs more efficient.


The new standards were included in energy legislation implemented under President George W. Bush and finalized under the Obama administration. They were set to go into effect in January 2020 and gradually phase out incandescent and halogen bulbs used for items such as bathroom vanities, recessed lighting and candle-shape lights, to be replaced with energy-efficient, LED versions, which are illuminated by light-emitting diodes.


In its announcement of the rollback, the Energy Department says the new lightbulb standards were established in 2017 "in a manner that is not consistent with the best reading of the statute."

Last March, NPR's Jeff Brady reported, "Thanks to a 2007 law signed by President George W. Bush, shelves these days are largely stocked with LED bulbs that look more like the traditional pear-shape incandescent version but use just one-fifth the energy. A second wave of lightbulb changes was set to happen. But now the Trump administration wants to undo an Obama-era regulation designed to make a wide array of specialty lightbulbs more energy-efficient."


Critics of the reversal say it will mean higher energy bills and more pollution. "The rollback will eliminate energy-efficient standards for lightbulbs that were slated to take effect in January that would save consumers billions of dollars and reduce millions of tons of climate change carbon dioxide emissions," says Andrew deLaski, executive director of the Appliance Standards Awareness Project.

"The Trump administration is trying to protect technology that was first invented in the 1800s. It's like trying to protect the horse and buggy from the automobile technology. It makes no sense to go back to technology from two centuries ago, when we have new technology today which saves consumers money and helps protect the environment by reducing the amount of power that we need," deLaski said.

According to the Natural Resources Defense Council, the affected bulbs account for 2.7 billion light sockets, which is about half the conventional sockets in use in the U.S. "The rollback will lead to higher energy bills for homes and businesses, plus significantly more pollution harming our health and the environment due to all the extra electricity that will need to be generated," the NRDC said in a statement.

Some companies that manufacture lightbulbs opposed the expansion to higher standards of energy efficiency.

DeLaski says, "Every time a consumer shifts to an LED, that lightbulb is going to last 10 years or longer. So the lightbulb manufacturers are trying to save technology that keeps the consumer coming back to buy another bulb every year, but still wastes a lot of energy."

The rollback is likely to face legal challenges from environmental groups, which said they would sue if the standards were reversed.

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Comments (188)
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Andie

Trump is nothing but a big bully. All he knows how to do is undo everything good that's been done for this country.

Next up ... fuel standards.


"Trump administration is moving forward with a proposal to revoke part of
California’s authority to set its own automobile gas mileage standards, a
government official said Thursday, in another confrontation with a
state that has repeatedly challenged environmental rollbacks."


https://apnews.com/a4f50324410e45f9b28907c48270ce95?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

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Stan Areted

LEDS suck. Some are better than others--some are downright offensive.

The only good thing about them is you don't have to change as often.

Go Trump.

Next is toilets.


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Andie

LEDs have improved dramatically since they first came out with that horrid blue. The warm white mimics incandescent light without the heat and short life span. What's not to love?

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dandyfopp

Come out from under the rock.

LEDs are fantastic.

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blfenton

I thought this argument was settled in the last decade? And like most technologies, it has improved through the years.

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Stan Areted

It's not so improved--some of us can tell difference, preferring incandescent.

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Andie

I read an older thread on here the other day. Seems like most people who originally didn't care for LEDs have happily joined the rest of us in the 21st Century.

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althea_gw

Good news for a change. For once I agree with Trump.


I can't stand Led light and I keep forgetting to stockpile incandescent bulbs. I guess one also needs to stockpile lamps and fixtures. Our incandescent bulbs last years because we turn them off when not in a room and my strong preference is to read near a window by the light of the sun with an incandescent bulb as a backup (I can't stand e-books either).

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Andie

Althea, get used to it. We're not turning back, regardless what Trump wants to do.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Trump's light bulb burned out some time ago.

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althea_gw

Not gonna happen Andie. There is no reason people who use incandescent bulbs responsibly should be penalized. How you light your own home is a personal choice that the government has no business interfering in.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

California will not be going backwards, no matter what Trump does; LEDs and low-flush are here to stay.

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dandyfopp

Demand drives the marketplace and not surprisingly, the last time I was in the lighting aisle at the local megalomart- incandescents are getting scarce as hens teeth.


Grab em while you can.

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adoptedbyhounds

"What's not to love?"


Having the right to choose taken away by bossy bureaucrats.

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Kathy

There are different color LEDs. We put them in our bath and I love them. So clear and can be dimmed. Just bought 4 porch lights that come on at dusk and go off at dawn. LED, no lightbulbs.

‘Moving forward with energy efficiency can be incremental and save energy over time.

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terrene(5b MA)

Mind-boggling. The fossil fuel industry (most electricity being generated by natural gas these days, and next coal), but also the utilities are probably behind this. Like the utility companies that have obstructed implementation of solar energy in many states.

I've been using compact flourescents for decades, and now have a few LEDs. The LEDs come in "natural daylight" and "warm white". The light is very good with both.

Most of the energy used for incandescent light bulbs is given off as waste heat. Same with the internal combustion engine (10-30% efficient), and even combined cycle power plants are only 50-60% efficient.

Does anybody still use an ice box or wringer washing machine? Why are we still using so much incredibly outdated and inefficient 19th century energy technology?!?!

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dandyfopp

Good old daze.

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Kathy

Low flush can work fine if you choose the proper toilet. I am all for saving energy when replacement is necessary. Sometimes it takes a short time for technology to catch up with the newer energy efficiently guidelines.

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althea_gw

Has it occurred to any of the LED advocates here that the reason incandescent bulbs have been around so long is because it is good technology?

The AMA had to issue guidance for LED street lights. Why anyone would want one of these things in their home is beyond me.

"The American Medical Association (AMA) has just adopted an official policy statement about street lighting: cool it and dim it.

The statement, adopted unanimously at the AMA’s annual meeting in Chicago on June 14, comes in response to the rise of new LED street lighting sweeping the country. An AMA committee issued guidelines on how communities can choose LED streetlights to “minimize potential harmful human health and environmental effects.”"

{clip}

"Two problems with LED street lighting

An incandescent bulb has a color temperature of 2400K, which means it contains far less blue and far more yellow and red wavelengths. Before electric light, we burned wood and candles at night; this artificial light has a CT of about 1800K, quite yellow/red and almost no blue. What we have now is very different.

The new “white” LED street lighting which is rapidly being retrofitted in cities throughout the country has two problems, according to the AMA. The first is discomfort and glare. Because LED light is so concentrated and has high blue content, it can cause severe glare, resulting in pupillary constriction in the eyes. Blue light scatters more in the human eye than the longer wavelengths of yellow and red, and sufficient levels can damage the retina. This can cause problems seeing clearly for safe driving or walking at night.

You can sense this easily if you look directly into one of the control lights on your new washing machine or other appliance: it is very difficult to do because it hurts. Street lighting can have this same effect, especially if its blue content is high and there is not appropriate shielding.

The other issue addressed by the AMA statement is the impact on human circadian rhythmicity.

Color temperature reliably predicts spectral content of light – that is, how much of each wavelength is present. It’s designed specifically for light that comes off the tungsten filament of an incandescent bulb.

However, the CT rating does not reliably measure color from fluorescent and LED lights.

Another system for measuring light color for these sources is called correlated color temperature (CCT). It adjusts the spectral content of the light source to the color sensitivity of human vision. Using this rating, two different 3000K light sources could have fairly large differences in blue light content.

Therefore, the AMA’s recommendation for CCT below 3000K is not quite enough to be sure that blue light is minimized. The actual spectral irradiance of the LED – the relative amounts of each of the colors produced – should be considered, as well."

{clip}

"The need for energy efficiency is serious, but so too is minimizing human risk from bad lighting, both due to glare and to circadian disruption. LED technology can optimize both when properly designed."


https://theconversation.com/american-medical-association-warns-of-health-and-safety-problems-from-white-led-streetlights-61191

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Kathy

Althea, the risk seems manageable.

So, is the blue light in LED lamps harmful to your health and do they present a safety risk? Yes - they certainly do - but the risks and concerns are specific to overexposure to blue light during evening hours, and can be effectively managed and controlled. Blue light is similar to caffeine, and similar common-sense precautions should be taken. For example, you wouldn't want to down a double-shot espresso an hour before going to bed!

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haydayhayday

Andie:


" What's not to love? "


Tyrants.


Tyrants in my bedroom especially. Sound familiar?



Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Has it occurred to any of the LED advocates here that the reason
incandescent bulbs have been around so long is because it is good
technology?

But it's not good technology! Most of the energy used is emitted as waste heat not light. This might be helpful if you are hatching some baby chicks in an unheated barn, but it's bad if the weather is hot and you want your house to be cool. And adds a burden if you're running an air conditioning system.

From Wikipedia -

Incandescent bulbs are much less efficient than other types of electric lighting, converting less than 5% of the energy they use into visible light. The remaining energy is lost as heat. The luminous efficacy of a typical incandescent bulb for 120 V operation is 16 lumens per watt, compared with 60 lm/W for a compact fluorescent bulb or 150 lm/W for some white LED lamps

And what about global warming? Let's just crank some more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere why don't we! (Why yes of course we are, it's just a rhetorical question.)

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haydayhayday

Terrene:


" But it's not good technology! Most of the energy used is emitted as waste heat not light. This might be helpful if you are hatching some baby chicks in an unheated barn, but it's bad if the weather is hot and you want your house to be cool. And adds a burden if you're running an air conditioning system. "


And, in the Winter when I want my house to be warm?


I heat my house in the Winter with electricity. It's starting to get chilly around here and soon I'll be switching my LED bulbs around me back out for the incandescent bulbs. The light is so much more pleasing AND I get the extra bonus of having the heat. Having the heat just where I want it...right above me just like where the cool LED bulb is sitting right now.


Me and the baby chicks.


Hay


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haydayhayday

" The remaining energy is lost as heat."


Lost? Nonsense!

I need that heat.


In the Winter time I do a lot more cooking, too.


Hay

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haydayhayday

"Inside every "progressive" is a tyrant, screaming to be free!"

Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Hay, I'm not an expert, but my guess is there are better ways to generate heat, like a heater.

The purpose of light bulbs is to generate light.

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Kathy

LED porch lights at Costco 29.00 right now. 69.00 on Amazon.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Everything is personal choice. You can choose to drown from storm surge or have you home blown apart. You can choose baking heat and frigid cold. You can choose to destroy the environment that you depend on for your survival. Go for it.

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Kathy

Eventually we move ahead. It is true people are slow to change and let’s admit it, everything is not better, but we do need to keep an open mind and realize the future is ours to make.

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haydayhayday

Terrene:


" Hay, I'm not an expert, but my guess is there are better ways to generate heat, like a heater. "




Hay

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Andie

Most of the energy used is emitted as waste heat not light. This might be helpful if you are hatching some baby chicks in an unheated barn, but it's bad if the weather is hot and you want your house to be cool. And adds a burden if you're running an air conditioning system.

That is so evident to me in our kitchen with the incandescent can lights. Makes the room way too warm, that's why I rarely turn them on. OTOH, I love the under cabinet LED task lights.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

I thought about this earlier. People are less likely to want them now that there are more options that don't require buying new bulbs constantly. They'll die off eventually.

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numbersjunkie

I'm laughing at how dated some of the info and opinions are. How old is that AMA statement? LEDs are now commonly available in " warm" white color (2600k), withhigh CRI (color rendering index), and excellent dimming capability with the right dimmer. If you buy the cheap ones, or don't know what to look for you'll get the "blue" light or poor CRI that throws a tint.

I put LEDs in every remodel project I do, and would never go back. I used to have to change my recessed pot light bulbs constantly, and and never replaced a LED even after 8 years. And my electric bills have gone down as well.

Some people need to stop living in the dark ages.

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terrene(5b MA)

Hay interesting video. Not exactly using a rigorous scientific methodology, but if a 15W dog bed and 40 W bulb actually make that woman comfortable enough to sit at a computer and work all day, in a room at 50F ambient temperature, then it's good by me.

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haydayhayday

Terrene:


" Hay interesting video. Not exactly using a rigorous scientific methodology, but if a 15W dog bed and 40 W bulb actually make that woman comfortable enough to sit at a computer and work all day, in a room at 50F ambient temperature, then it's good by me."



That's very kind of you.


In return, I'll not make a trip to your house and try to impose a lighting system on you.

Saves me a trip.


Hay

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

We use LEDs inside and out, no problems, we phased out incans and then the curly-cue bulbs too. With 12 motion detector light fixtures around the house which would usually use 24 - 75W flood light bulbs we replaced them with equal brightness LEDs bulbs which use 12W each. That reduces watt useage by 1,512 watts and they don't burn out in 2 years like the hot energy gulping incandescents so it's a win-win on cost and reliability.

I have stocked up on 60W incadescents to use in our well house, they do make for a great heat heat source to keep the water lines from freezing during the winter.

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haydayhayday

Funny.


Some petty tyrant didn't seem to like one of my responses.


Fitting.


Hay

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haydayhayday

terrene:

" The purpose of light bulbs is to generate light."


What kind of person would say something like that? If I buy the bulb, should it be YOU that decides how I use it?


What kind of person would do that?


Hay

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HU-219136540

some prefer to live in the dark age.

Others prefer progress

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haydayhayday

First they came for my light bulbs....


Hay



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haydayhayday

HU-219136540:


"Others prefer progress"


"Inside every "progressive" is a totalitarian, screaming to be free!"


Progress.


Hay

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althea_gw

"Althea, the risk seems manageable."

The best way of managing the problems associated with LEDs for me is to use time tested incandescents.

"I'm laughing at how dated some of the info and opinions are. How old is that AMA statement? "

I suppose you could have clicked on the link and found it is from 2016. And then, seeing the tags below the article, looked at what else they have and found this 2017 article.

"Most lighting is electric and powered by an alternating current supply, which makes the bulbs continually dim and then brighten again at a very fast rate. Unlike filament lamps and to a lesser extent fluorescent lamps, LEDs don’t just dim but effectively turn on and off completely (unless the current is maintained in some way).

Health concerns

We know from earlier work on fluorescent lighting that even though the flicker is too fast to be visible, it remains a likely health hazard. In 1989, my colleagues and I compared fluorescent lighting that flickered 100 times a second with lights that appeared the same but didn’t flicker. We found that office workers were half as likely on average to experience headaches under the non-flickering lights.

No similar study has yet been performed for LED lights. But because LED flickering is even more pronounced, with the light dimming by 100% rather than the roughly 35% of fluorescent lamps, there’s a chance that LEDs could be even more likely to cause headaches. At best, it’s likely to put some people off using LED bulbs because of the annoying, distracting effect of the flickering, which we know can be detected during saccades.

One obvious way of avoiding the flicker is to operate the lamps with a direct current so the light is constant, but this involves more expensive, shorter-lived components. Another solution is to design the lights so that the flicker can’t be detected. But just how fast must the flicker be in order to be harmless?"

https://theconversation.com/the-scientific-reason-you-dont-like-led-bulbs-and-the-simple-way-to-fix-them-81639

Not too long ago, within the past year I read LED's also can cause retinal damage. I don't feel like looking up the info. It shouldn't be hard to find for those who are curious.

"Tyrants in my bedroom especially. Sound familiar?"

Sure does.

"Having the heat just where I want it...right above me..."

Exactly. Why would I turn up the heat for the whole house if I want to sit on a chair beneath a nice, incandescent bulb to read a book which offers light and heat at the same time.

"The purpose of light bulbs is to generate light."

Terrene, you can get high wattage bulbs called "heat lamps".

"You can choose to destroy the environment that you depend on for your survival. Go for it."

Patriciae I think you are exaggerating. Last night in the Climate Crisis Town Hall Elizabeth Warren pointed out that light bulbs are not the problem. 3 industries that generate 70 %(?) of carbon emissions are.


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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Hay and vgkg are right, chicks (and piglets) often require the gentle heat incandescent bulbs give off. A light in the crawl space during a winter cold snap will keep your pipes from freezing.

LEDs & fluorescent lights don't work well outside or in out buildings in Minnesota winters. They won't turn on at 20+ below.

Finally, LEDs can be dangerous when used in traffic lights and warning lights. Why? When they get encrusted with ice or snow, they are not warm enough to melt ice and snow off! In my area, many cities are going back to incandescents because of safety concerns. If warning flashers on barricades aren't visible in the winter-bad things happen.

LEDs have their place, and I choose to use alot of them in my home, but don't force them on everyone for every use.

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elvis

We use LEDs in closets and cabinets where we don't have to look at the darn things. The light is most annoying. Our city had to replace a very long thoroughfare where they had installed LED streetlights "to save the taxpayers money". After a string of accidents (we have a lot of drivers in the approximate age group we have here on HT), they switched back. People were driving into the curb and missing driveways.

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numbersjunkie

So for those if you worried about health effects of LED bulbs, do you smoke cigarettes, have a cell phone or microwave? Do you walk out into the sunshine?

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terrene(5b MA)

Geez, Hay, your responses are over the top. I couldn't care less what kind of lighting you use in your house or your petty beef with "progressives".

I care that humans are destroying and polluting natural ecosystems, extincting species, wasting natural resources, and threatening the future habitability of the planet, for all species, human and non-human. I care that we're putting billions of tons of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, disturbing the long-term carbon cycle, warming the climate, and potentially heading towards hothouse Earth.

Unless we do something about it. More efficient lighting is a good thing, but it will only have a minor effect in addressing those big problems.

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catspat(aka)

I've replaced all my incandescent bulbs with warm-toned LEDs and don't notice much difference in the light, except that, even though providing more light, LEDs can only barely power up my solar calculator after dark -- not enough energy output! I also never get headaches, period, so they don't seem to be affecting me that way or any other way physically.

That being said, there are bigger fish to fry, when it comes to wiser energy use, than forcing people to use particular bulbs. Plus, LED bulbs seem attractive enough to prevail through market forces alone. The savings on electric bills, along with their longer life and constant improvements in the quality of light and bulb technology, seem to be enough attraction for getting people to use LED bulbs. I was a real curmudgeon about giving up incandescent bulbs (and still have a stockpile of them), but was won over.

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elvis

numbersjunkie

So for those if you worried about health effects of LED bulbs, do you smoke cigarettes, have a cell phone or microwave? Do you walk out into the sunshine?

No, no, yes, no.

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haydayhayday

Terrene:


" Geez, Hay,...."


Don't take it personal.


I want to save humanity, too.


Hay

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haydayhayday

Numbers:

"So for those if you worried about health effects of LED bulbs, do you smoke cigarettes, have a cell phone or microwave? Do you walk out into the sunshine?"

I wonder if those who promote taking my hot incandescents from my cold hands will be giving up sitting in front of the nice glow of a fireplace this winter.

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/darby-home-co-camilla-simulated-electric-fireplace-drbh7088.html

No heat, no mess. Just that nice glow.

What's not to love?

Hay

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haydayhayday

I just saw that there were what looks like real candles on top of the progressive fireplace. Shame, shame.


https://www.google.com/search?q=led+candles&oq=led+candles&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i59j0l4.9072j0j9&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Shaping up to be a nice romantic evening.


Hay

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haydayhayday

She'll be impressed with just how frugal I am.


"How long do LED candles last?

The LED in a flameless candle will last about 100,000 hours. If you use it four hours a day, it will keep working for an astonishing 68 years! But, alas, the four AA batteries can't keep that pace. They last about 450 hours."


Hay

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aegis1000

Trump will be reversed. He is a hiccup in the overwhelming drive to advance ...

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althea_gw

"So for those if you worried about health effects of LED bulbs ..."

Oh, please. What, are you coming for my land line next?

Do you eat processed food, fast food, junk food, exercise regularly, drive a car?

Worth repeating:

"First they came for my light bulbs...."

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Delilah66

For those of you who deny climate change and depletion of non-renewable courses of energy that would make sense of energy efficient light bulbs, I’m joining your ranks. I’ve just contracted to have a new heating system installed. I haven’t quite figured out where to build the coal bin though.

ETA: This is one of the silliest threads I’ve seen on HT. Leave a little something for those to come. Selfishness does not become you.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Do you understand how bad the compact fluorescents are for the environment? Mercury !

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althea_gw

"Selfishness does not become you."

I agree. Some peoples' selfish need to tell others how to light their homes is beyond the pale. Dismissing peoples health and safety concerns is inhumane.

Looks like no one posted their results for a search for:: LED Retina Damage

Here are the results for page 1 of a sample google search:



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dandyfopp

I can imagine my great grandma thought those horseless carriages were awful for our lungs.

She would have been right.


I get it but guys, time is marching on with or without you.

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Ziemia(6a)

There is no ban on incandescent lighting. Only if you refuse mail order is it a problem.


"Having the right to choose taken away by bossy bureaucrats."

Commuter traffic makes the road leaving town congested? Just use the other, empty lanes.

************

It is always good to question change. However, the battle over LEDs isn't just about incandescents.

*******

What stopped anyone from buying incandescents?

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/208955/PLT-11288.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwh8jrBRDQARIsAH7BsXeydjImdyHgYIQfKZQ-UUJJr9V4fO2ul52GlLKIV7E-bm2prxyinDcaAnYvEALw_wcB

And....

"There is no such thing as an incandescent light bulb ban in the United States. In fact, on the very same day that the 60-watt incandescent light bulb disappears, you'll be able to buy a 43-watt incandescent light bulb to take its place. Or a 72-watt incandescent bulb. Or a 150-watt incandescent bulb.Jan 1, 2014"

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Andie

elvis

We use LEDs in closets and cabinets where we don't have to look at the darn things. The light is most annoying.

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cait1

Maybe some good things will come out of this. It seems the true believers of the religion of glowbull warming are tearing down the wall of separation between Church and State and opening up the ability for other religions to enact legislation/regulation, too. Thanks warmists!

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elvis

Andie, I don't really notice the change of color in my closets and cupboards, in and out. I have always removed clothes from the closet to check the color in more natural light. I didn't really think about the streetlights (as I don't often drive at night) until this summer when the change back was reported. Thanks for the reminder!

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haydayhayday

cait:


" Maybe some good things will come out of this."


Woke up this morning to another wonderful chilly Fall day. With this thread as a reminder, I just now switched out the LED lights around me to the incandescents that I bring out for the cold months.


Life is good.


Really, Terrene, don't take it personally. It's just Hot Topic rhetoric. In real life I'm really sweet.


Hay



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haydayhayday

I keep thinking of all the wonderful poetry about moths and lovers and such and how it's all going to be needing to be updated.

Progress.


"I was a moth and you were a lamp that never lit"


Hay

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haydayhayday

And birthdays will never be the same.



"Brilliant Birthday Candle: Nice lotus shaped candle, rotating automatically with Happy Birthday to You after press the middle button, all the led lights on each petals will come on and it continues to rotate with music on and on. It's not only a birthday candle, but a wonderful toy for your children!

Flash Modes for Choose: After start the flameless birthday candle, we can adjust 3 kinds of flash modes of led lights on each petals by pressing the button for 3 times(fast flash/ steady lighting/ slow flash). Choose your favorite mode and enjoy a good time.

Ways to Close: After making a wish, it’s time to blow out candles. Blow into the holes in the middle gently, the music and led light will be off and the petals will rotate reversely until fully fold. This flameless candle can also be stopped by pressing and holding the power button.

...

Whether single or attached, Homecube will accompany you spend a warm and meaningful birthday! Our customer satisfaction is our priority. LED Birthday Candle is accompanied with unconditional 1 Year Warranty policy. If there is any quality problem on LED Birthday Candle, please let us know and we’ll try our best to make things right."



I was a little hestitant until I saw that you can ACTUALLY BLOW OUT THE CANDLES!

What's not to love!!!!

Progress!

Hay

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haydayhayday

Elvis:


" Andie, I don't really notice the change of color in my closets and cupboards, in and out. I have always removed clothes from the closet to check the color in more natural light...."


Beauty is important in our lives. As soon as I get up, I'll change the light bulb in my bathroom back to an incandescent. It'll brighten up my day in more ways than one.



Hay





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haydayhayday

LED lights are a real hazard. Say what you want. LED lights are a real hazard.


I've had two RAV4's. The first one had regular old style headlights. I ran it into the ground and traded it in for essentially the same RAV4 a couple of years ago.


The very first time I drove it at night was a shocker. I couldn't see nearly as well as I could the very day before. An incredibly worse lighting when I needed it most. I would not at all be surprised that there are more deaths on our highways because of the LED lights all over the place.


I constantly get people blinking their highbeams at me, thinking I have my headlights on high when I don't.


What's not to love?


Progress!


If I could easily enough do it, I'd pay to have my old headlights back.




Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Hay don't worry. I don't take what people say on the Internet personally, got a thick skin. And I'm also a very nice person in real life.

And believe it or not, there is one place in my house that I still use a couple incandescents. 2 100W bulbs in the garage! Originally put them in because in the earlier years of CFLs they took minutes to reach full brightness, and I wanted immediate bright light in a cluttered garage. Also, the garage is on the north side and is dark, and it gets cold so a little extra heat is ok. But they are never left on for long periods. They've been in there for 15 years without burning out, that should tell you how little they are used and I haven't bothered to change them as yet.


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terrene(5b MA)

Do you understand how bad the compact fluorescents are for the environment? Mercury !

Ok not this again. ALL fluorescent tubes have mercury. You might have a tube or 2 in your house. Your office building might have hundreds of them. They've been around for over 100 years.

It is risky to break any fluorescent light bulb, and there's a ridiculously elaborate procedure to clean them up. None of them are supposed to be thrown in the regular trash, but instead disposed of properly. But how many people do that?

Our town takes all fluorescent tubes in both residential and business recycling programs.


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marquest(PA zone 6)

I do not have a problem with this one. Not many people will follow. As long as he does not try to demand no more LED are manufactured all is good. There will not be many that will go back to the past.

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bleusblue2

marquest(PA zone 6)

I do not have a problem with this one. Not many people will follow. As long as he does not try to demand no more LED are manufactured all is good. There will not be many that will go back to the past.

~~~~

I have a problem with it. My story: I prefer the incandescent bulbs. Many people went out and stocked up with a life time supply of them. But to accommodate people like me the manufacturers have tried to simulate in LEDs, the light given off by incandescents. Will they bother now? This is stupidly regressive legislation. LEDs will continue to be manufactured. There might be a slight rise in electric usage in those towns that don't care about price or ecology. So WHAT IS THE POINT of this legislation? What is the clown-in-chief trying to prove? Obama Obama Obama again?

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chijim

terrene(5b MA)

Do you understand how bad the compact fluorescents are for the environment? Mercury !

Ok not this again. ALL fluorescent tubes have mercury. You might have
a tube or 2 in your house. Your office building might have hundreds of
them. They've been around for over 100 years.

It is risky to break any fluorescent light bulb, and there's a
ridiculously elaborate procedure to clean them up. None of them are
supposed to be thrown in the regular trash, but disposed of properly.
But how many people do that?

Our town takes all fluorescent tubes in both residential and business recycling programs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I remember hearing the amt of mercury in a CFL was about the size of a period(.) but then again, people had to spread disinformation about them

back then too.

This headline says it all of the conservative mindset:

Trump wants you to pay more for light bulbs and power — but at least you’ll own the libs!


BTW - for those against the LED streetlights, the Chicago police and people out on the street at night like them.

Oh, when Chicago replaced the old incandescent bulbs with sodium vapor bulbs(seen below) we also had people screaming the sky was falling.


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lionheart_gw (USDA Zone 5A, Eastern NY)

I agree with Hay, especially with the earlier blue-tinted lights. They cast an otherwordly pall over the entire room. It's dreary and depressing.


Take a cold, gray winter day and add in blue light to emulate a dank cave. This must be what it's like to be a mushroom.


I admit that it will take a lot more than warmer colored light to make me like winter, but the alien lights don't offer much to alleviate the light deprivation. The light has a cold vibe.


Plus, they last forever. If you bought them a long time ago, you still have them. That's why people still complain about them. They haven't tried any of the newer ones. Why buy something you already have just because they couldn't get it right the first time?


Which leads me to suspect that the new lighting probably isn't all that great either. They shamelessly overhyped the originals, which were awful, so anything would be an improvement. It sounds like "It's better than 6 months in a dungeon". Not a persuasive selling point, but maybe I'll buy one to try it out.


I may or may not switch to incandescents, which never went completely away, but it would be nice to have better, warmer light in the winter.


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bleusblue2

chijim said

Oh, when Chicago replaced the old incandescent bulbs with sodium vapor bulbs(seen below) we also had people screaming the sky was falling.

~~~~

I don't know about Chicago but a complaint heard in St. Louis is that the sodium vapor bulbs are placed to light up the STREETS but not the sidewalks. Not very helpful is it?

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haydayhayday

terrene:

"And believe it or not, there is one place in my house that I still use a couple incandescents."

catspat:

" That being said, there are bigger fish to fry, when it comes to wiser energy use, than forcing people to use particular bulbs. Plus, LED bulbs seem attractive enough to prevail through market forces alone. "

//////////////////////////////

It's the nature of government deciding what's best for ALL of us. By the sheer necessity of it, it becomes one size fits all. And, of course, that really ends up meaning no one gets what they really need.

And, it is in the nature of a government deciding what's best for ALL of us to use, by the necessity of it, a sledgehammer to solve problems that need detailed care.

In the end the individual gets lost. I'm a person, not just another cog. I'm a person, not a number. You will lose if you take away my individuality. You say you cherish the diversity of life, but you sure don't live by it.

I just happened to come across this story this morning while I was surfing around:

Make us all the same:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-49599078


" Gender neutral uniform sparks protest at Lewes Priory School"


"The school said "concerns" had been raised over the length of girls' skirts and new rules also catered for a handful of transgender pupils.

...

"Very disturbed to see the school turning away girls from Priory school because they choose to wear a skirt and calling the police on them."

...

"During extremely hot weather pupils had previously been allowed to wear PE shorts or skorts - shorts made to look like skirts.

However, a letter sent to parents in June said the decision had "created more problems than we wished".

Hay

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haydayhayday

Chijim:

" BTW - for those against the LED streetlights, the Chicago police and people out on the street at night like them."

Really?

I googled your very words:

https://www.google.com/search?q=chicago+police+and+public+like+the+led+street+lights&oq=chicago+police+and+public+like+the+led+street+lights&aqs=chrome..69i57.15180j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The First link:

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2019/6/10/18660436/citys-new-led-lighting-program-putting-some-communities-dark

" City’s new LED lighting program may be putting some communities in the dark"

The Second link:

https://www.wbez.org/shows/curious-city/seeing-blue-will-chicagos-new-led-streetlights-do-more-harm-than-good/000bd912-e540-4f70-8517-c1ee25a6ef92

" Seeing Blue: Will Chicago's New LED Streetlights Do More Harm Than Good?"

///////////////////////////////

Looks like you need to qualify your propaganda. Not everyone agrees with you.

The second link lays out pretty clearly some of the concerns you don't want to acknowledge.

Hay

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catspat(aka)

You say you cherish the diversity of life, but you sure don't live by it.


WHAT are you ranting about, Hay? I essentially said people can buy whatever kind of light bulb they want -- doesn't matter much -- you have a problem with that????


The "bigger fish to fry" is energy used for transport, heating, and cooling. There's areas where government encouragement of innovation can make a lot of difference.


Heating space and water are the largest single household uses of energy source:


As for transportation, 28% of all energy used in the U.S. goes for that. source

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haydayhayday

catspat:


"WHAT are you ranting about, Hay? I essentially said people can buy whatever kind of light bulb they want -- doesn't matter much -- you have a problem with that????"


No, not at all.


In fact, I actually agree with every word of yours that I quoted:


" That being said, there are bigger fish to fry, when it comes to wiser energy use, than forcing people to use particular bulbs. Plus, LED bulbs seem attractive enough to prevail through market forces alone. "


I even highlighted the points that I thought were particularly relevant to my own rant.


What am I ranting about?


I thought I was pretty clear. Same things I usually rant about. I'm pretty consistent with my rants.


" You say you cherish the diversity of life, but you sure don't live by it. ".



The "you" in that case is not Catspat or even Terrene.


As I did say to Terrene and I will say to YOU, Catspat,


"Don't take it personally"


I just used your comment that I agree with to get me going.


Hay

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chijim

haydayhayday

terrene:

"And believe it or not, there is one place in my house that I still use a couple incandescents."

catspat:

" That being said, there are bigger fish to fry, when it comes to wiser energy use, than forcing people to use particular bulbs. Plus, LED bulbs seem attractive enough to prevail through market forces alone. "

//////////////////////////////

It's the nature of government deciding what's best for ALL of us. By the sheer necessity of it, it becomes one size fits all. And, of course, that really ends up meaning no one gets what they really need.

And, it is in the nature of a government deciding what's best for ALL of us to use, by the necessity of it, a sledgehammer to solve problems that need detailed care.

In the end the individual gets lost. I'm a person, not just another
cog. I'm a person, not a number. You will lose if you take away my
individuality. You say you cherish the diversity of life, but you sure don't live by it.

I just happened to come across this story this morning while I was surfing around:

Make us all the same:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-49599078


" Gender neutral uniform sparks protest at Lewes Priory School"


"The school said "concerns" had been raised over the length of
girls' skirts and new rules also catered for a handful of transgender
pupils.

...

"Very disturbed to see the school turning away girls from Priory
school because they choose to wear a skirt and calling the police on
them."

...

"During extremely hot weather pupils had previously been allowed to wear PE shorts or skorts - shorts made to look like skirts.

However, a letter sent to parents in June said the decision had "created more problems than we wished".

Hay

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haydayhayday

Chijim:

" BTW - for those against the LED streetlights, the Chicago police and people out on the street at night like them."

Really?

Looks like you need to qualify your propaganda. Not everyone agrees with you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What's propaganda - my block has them and they are brighter than the ones they replaced. They're also saving the taxpayers $$ - surprised that would bother the conservatives but then, it's something new so it is scary to the.

It almost looked like daytime at night when the snow was bouncing off the light.

I've heard cops say they enjoy the brighter streets.

As for that disagree you cited.... it's like a*******...everyone has one


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terrene(5b MA)

Yes catspat, home energy is a biggie, particularly heating, cooling and appliances.

When I calculated the emissions from the heating oil we use (for heat and hot water), I was shocked to discover it is by far the biggest part of my entire carbon footprint! It wasn't difficult, just totalled up the gallons for the year, and multiplied by the CO2 emissions per gallon (which are a little higher than per gallon of gas), and then divided that by the number of people in household.

Ugh, my dream is to live in a passive house.

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althea_gw

Ziamia, the controversy is about the planned phase-out incandescent bulbs. It goes back to the Bush administration and was finalized in the Obama administration.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/04/climate/trump-light-bulb-rollback.html

How2Girl, it isn't a good idea to assume everyone has all of the products you listed. Yes, the sun has blue light. It is well scattered and infused with many other colors producing a full spectrum. Artificial light seeks to emulate sunlight, but hasn't been able to accomplish that. Light from incandescent bulbs is the gold standard thus far.

I am aware of the glasses that block blue light. I hear getting vulnerable infants and children who are most at risk of retina damage to wear them under your LED lights is both fun and easy.

"There will not be many that will go back to the past"

Bleusblue2, I'm using your statement as an example of what has been said so many times on this thread. The fact is, this hare-brained scheme to phase out incandescent bulbs was hatched during a period when solar power wasn't well developed. Nowadays residential and community solar is practical and affordable for many. The future is solar and wind, not continued use of coal and other fossil fuel intensive means of generating electricity. With your own solar panel, the choice of bulbs isn't significant if you can generate more electricity than you use anyway. The only luddites are the ones who insist others are limited in their choice of lighting while clinging to fossil fuel generated power as if there is no other choice.

We used to laugh at countries that forced citizens to do this sort of thing. Some here appear to want the U.S. to follow China's example.

China has banned imports and sales of certain incandescent light bulbs since October 2012 to encourage the use of alternative lighting sources such as light-emitting diodes (LEDs), with a 5-year plan of phasing-out incandescent light bulbs over 100 watts starting 1 October 2012, and gradually extend the ban to those over 15 watts on 1 October 2016.[35] Another source, however, has indicated that by 1 October 2016, all incandescent light bulbs will be banned.[36]According to this source, 1 November 2011 to 30 September 2012 will be a transitional period and as of 1 October 2012, imports and sales of ordinary incandescent bulbs of 100 watts or more will be prohibited. The first phase will be followed by a ban on 60-watt-and-higher incandescent light bulbs starting in October 2014. By October 2016, all incandescent light bulbs will be banned in China. The final phase may be adjusted according to the results of interim assessment from October 2015 to October 2016. It has been reported that the ban would be complete by October 2016.[37]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs#United_States

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JodiK

Hey... why not? This administration is hellbent on rolling back everything. Can't wait until we all need face masks and oxygen bottles due to air pollution levels, I say with much sarcasm!

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haydayhayday

chijim:

" What's propaganda - my block has them and they are brighter than the ones they replaced. They're also saving the taxpayers $$ - surprised that would bother the conservatives but then, it's something new so it is scary to the(m). "

I suppose you must be addressing me.

I get branded as a conservative around here and it's not the $$ that you think you might be saving me that tips the scales for me. It's that YOU, (Chijim, in this case. Personally.)

and people like YOU that feel a need to come take my incandescents away that is, if anything is , Scary.

Hay

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haydayhayday

chijim:

" I've heard cops say they enjoy the brighter streets.

As for that disagree you cited.... it's like a*******...everyone has one"

Everyone has one, including you, apparently.

I just don't want to impose mine onto you.

I'd like the same from you.

I promise I want take away your precious LED's.

Hay

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catspat(aka)

In fact, I actually agree with every word of yours that I quoted


Okay, sorry Hay, my misunderstanding of why you were quoting + then reading your comment as continuing from that. But at least I got around to pointing out why it's sort of a "shrug the shoulders" issue for me, when it comes to households, at least -- there are other areas of energy use where more efficiency and innovation will give way bigger payoffs in carbon reduction, reducing other pollution, etc.

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Ziemia(6a)

No one in the government is taking away anyone's incandescents.

One can still buy them. Especially if ya know how to use the Internet market place.

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Kathy

I like the LEDs, but I can understand some instances where incandescent are desirable. No one is forced to buy LEDs, but at some point may find them the better choice. Any new thing takes a while to catch on.

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elvis

BTW - for those against the LED streetlights, the Chicago police and people out on the street at night like them.

Oh, when Chicago replaced the old incandescent bulbs with sodium vapor bulbs(seen below) we also had people screaming the sky was falling.

Not me. When I had to be out at night in the old neighborhood (West Side of Chicago), I stuck to the shadows, harder for the bad guys to see you. The bright lights makes targets stand out. It's harder to get shot when they can't clearly see the victim. For general, run of the mill attacks, i.e. rape/robbery/stabbing, also makes it harder to tell your gender, size, and whether you might be armed.


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catspat(aka)

When I calculated the emissions from the heating oil we use (for heat and hot water), I was shocked to discover it is by far the biggest part of my entire carbon footprint! It wasn't difficult, just totalled up the gallons for the year, and multiplied by the CO2 emissions per gallon (which are a little higher than per gallon of gas), and then divided that by the number of people in household.


Yes, terrene -- I know the feeling, having lived in western MA (Leverett). Nothing like watching the gauge on a 250-gallon oil tank visibly moving downward on a -10F day -- like watching dollar bills flying out of your pocket, and heating oil was relatively cheap in the mid-80s to mid-90s, about 65 cents/gallon. Nothing makes the "carbon footprint" concept more concrete than that experience.

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terrene(5b MA)

One can still buy them. Especially if ya know how to use the Internet market place.

Hay, even if government did ban incandescent light bulbs, and there weren't any available in stores anywhere, you will probably be able to buy them at thrift stores, yard sales, or on Ebay for years to come. There are gazillions of them hanging around in people's cabinets and drawers that aren't being used. I've found dozens of them left behind after residential or commercial tenants move out (I'm a small-time landlord and used to manage office space for 12 years). I end up donating them.

People like saving energy and money. Young people are much more concerned about climate change than older people. And young people probably aren't as attached to incandescent light bulbs as some of the posters on this thread appear to be, who are probably older in age.

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althea_gw

This is the future.

"Sep 06, 2019

Global renewable energy has quadrupled over past decade

With solar leading the way, clean energy capacity growth is helping the planet avoid billions of tons of carbon dioxide emissions each year.


Renewable energy capacity quadrupled across the planet over the past decade and energy from solar power increased 26 times from what it was in 2009, according to an international report released today.

The Global Trends in Renewable Energy Investment 2019 report finds renewables accounted for 12.9 percent of global electricity in 2018—up from 11.6 percent in 2018. (The report excluded hydroelectric power, which, if included, bumps the current renewable share to 26.3 percent of total electricity produced.)

The 1.2 terawatts of new renewable energy capacity added over the past decade is "more than the entire electricity generating fleet of the U.S. today," the authors wrote.

This continued growth—led by solar, which accounts for about a quarter of all renewable energy and was the most added energy source of any kind during the period studied—gave the planet a reprieve from an estimated 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide emissions last year. With capacity growing and global investments at more than $2.6 trillion, the report shows momentum for clean energy continues in most countries.

"Investing in renewable energy is investing in a sustainable and profitable future, as the last decade of incredible growth in renewables has shown," said Inger Andersen, Executive Director of the UN Environment Programme, in a statement. The UN Environment Programme produced the report along with the Frankfurt School-UNEP Collaborating Centre for Climate & Sustainable Energy Finance and BloombergNEF.

Total investment over the past decade was roughly 2.6 trillion, with half of that dedicated to solar. China led the way in renewable investment, committing about $758 billion between 2010 and early 2019. The U.S. was second to China, committing less than half that amount over the same time—$356 billion.

Japan was third, investing $202 billion, and Europe, as a whole, invested about $698 billion."

{clip}

The authors, while optimistic, said sustained renewable energy progression needs to continue if the planet is to avoid the worst potential impact from climate change.

"We cannot afford to be complacent," said Inger Andersen, Executive Director of the UN Environment Programme, in a statement. "Global power sector emissions have risen about 10 percent over this period. It is clear that we need to rapidly step up the pace of the global switch to renewables if we are to meet international climate and development goals."

https://www.ehn.org/renewable-energy-growing-2640193068.html

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haydayhayday

Terrene:

"Hay, even if government did ban incandescent light bulbs, and there weren't any available in stores anywhere, you will probably be able to buy them at thrift stores, yard sales, or on Ebay for years to come. "

I appreciate your help, but, really, helping me find my next incandescent "fix" is not really what I'm after. I want my freedom back. That's my issue. Is that asking too much?

Even though you say, on the one hand,

" Geez, Hay, your responses are over the top. I couldn't care less what kind of lighting you use in your house ...",

your very first....Very First.... sentence in this thread, early on:

" "Mind-boggling."

which, I'd think, suggests your personal support for instituting even more stringent regulations against my use of incandescents.

You say you don't care what kind of lighting I use in my house? Really?

I don't expect that you will be personally showing up at my house to take my incandescents, but you certainly seemed to show a willingness to do what you can to allow others to keep them out of my house.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Ziemia keeps telling me I can still get my incandescent "fix", too.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Ziemia:

"There is no ban on incandescent lighting. Only if you refuse mail order is it a problem."

...

What stopped anyone from buying incandescents?

https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/208955/PLT-11288.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwh8jrBRDQARIsAH7BsXeydjImdyHgYIQfKZQ-UUJJr9V4fO2ul52GlLKIV7E-bm2prxyinDcaAnYvEALw_wcB

And....

"There is no such thing as an incandescent light bulb ban in the United States. In fact, on the very same day that the 60-watt incandescent light bulb disappears, you'll be able to buy a 43-watt incandescent light bulb to take its place. Or a 72-watt incandescent bulb. Or a 150-watt incandescent bulb.Jan 1, 2014"

..............

No one in the government is taking away anyone's incandescents.

One can still buy them. Especially if ya know how to use the Internet market place."

////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The short rebuttal to this is that the bulbs Ziemia is telling me I can STILL buy are just exactly the bulbs that this thread is all about. Those bulbs, currently, still available are precisely the bulbs that would have been forced to be more "efficient" or... or else.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs#United_States

"In December 2007, the federal government enacted the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (EISA), which set maximum power consumption requirements for all general-service light bulbs producing 310–2600 lumens of light. Light bulbs outside of this range are exempt from the restrictions. Also exempt are several classes of specialty lights including appliance lamps, rough service bulbs, 3-way, colored lamps, stage lighting, plant lights, candelabra lights under 60 watts, outdoor post lights less than 100 watts, nightlights and shatter resistant bulbs. The law was to effectively ban most incandescent light bulbs, starting in January 2012.[91][92] By 2020, a second tier of restrictions would become effective, requiring all general-purpose bulbs to produce at least 45 lumens per watt, similar to a CFL.[93]

Got that? Your link, Ziemia, the "1000 bulbs" link is for precisely one of these "rough service" bulbs which is CURRENTLY EXEMPT and which will stay exempt now that Donald Trump has rescinded the planned ban.

Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Hay, I'm not familiar with the details of the legislation. What's mind-boggling to me is the Trump administration's relentless roll back of legislation put forth by previous administrations that are moving the country forward towards a cleaner environment and more efficient, modern energy technology.

I don't necessarily think incandescent light bulbs should be completely removed from the marketplace. You and other posters above have pointed out useful applications of incandescent, and I mentioned using them to hatch chicks first.

Likewise, people will continue to burn fossil fuels, eat meat or foods that are shipped from halfway around the world, and other high-carbon emitting activities. But I support a carbon tax. And regulations that require producers to account for all costs of production including carbon pollution, and consumers should have to pay a fair price for polluting products that accounts for waste and disposal.

You are worried about freedom? Our freedoms are already being eroded and much more important ones (ie 1st amendment attack on the press and 4th amendment by the patriot act) than whether or not people can use incandescent light bulbs or plastic water bottles!

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

The order is not rolling back any current regulaion. It is just not implementing next year's planned expansion. Those new inclusions were deemed uneconomical.

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Ziemia(6a)

Even with that "expansion" you'd be able to get your incandescents. They will be available for at least 10 more years. Likely double that.

What other countries are holding onto incandescents?

ETA

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_incandescent_light_bulbs?wprov=sfla1

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haydayhayday

Nothing quite like waking up to the warm glow of incandescent bulbs to brighten up your day.



Hay

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haydayhayday

One of my very best investments. A hedge against tyranny.


Hay

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haydayhayday

Ziemia:


" Even with that "expansion" you'd be able to get your incandescents. They will be available for at least 10 more years. Likely double that. "


My goodness, you're an endless source of misinformation.


Hay


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Ziemia(6a)

Hay - back atchya

(They'll be filling shelves in warehouses for years after they are no longer produced.) (Most demanding them are close to or past retirement age.)

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Ziemia(6a)

PS Yes, getting these bulbs would have become harder.

And that extra effort will be made even harder by the increase in air pollution. (WH also loosening those regs.)

PPS You can still live in a house with lead pipe water supply.

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catspat(aka)

Must be tough finding leaded gasoline these days, Hay. More government tyranny! ;-) ETA that while I have difficulty getting all riled up about not banning some light bulbs, some government regulation has had immense benefits for the environment and the humans in it, including removing lead from gasoline and paint, and phosphates from detergent.

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haydayhayday

Must be tough finding leaded gasoline these days, Hay. More government tyranny! ;-)

It does get hard to plan for the whims of the tyrants. I do my best. Gasoline doesn't keep very well.

Never know what the next tyrant's pet project might be.

The Progressive Women tried to take away our alcohol. Today they embrace it.

In a cringeworthy sort of way:



Where we find out what really "makes her excited".

Where she continues her lying ways:

"I never thought I was going to run for politics, any kind of elected office"

Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Most demanding them are close to or past retirement age.

Seriously. Young people aren't even going to know what they are or care that they ever existed in another decade or so.

But I like some of the older technology myself. My son makes fun of me because I still listen to CDs. He said "Mom they're so 2005."



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bleusblue2

haydayhayday

Never know what the next tyrant's pet project might be.

~~~~

Never know what the next tyrant's pet project might be -- are you talking about Saudi Arabia? Russia? North Korea?

Our elected government put these projects in place. If you don't like them you can work to VOTE them out as you well know how to do!




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Andie

He doesn't see what the rest of us see.




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haydayhayday

Andie:

"He doesn't see what the rest of us see."

You hanging out in his bathroom? I don't know where you would, otherwise, ever have seen him under an incandescent light.

I get that you hate Trump. That's all you got.

Kids growing up today are really not very "sensitive". If all you know is the constant bombarding of lights and sound, your senses become dull.


You're missing a lot of the beauty in life.


Hay



Hay

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haydayhayday

Bleusblue:


"Never know what the next tyrant's pet project might be -- are you talking about Saudi Arabia? Russia? North Korea?

Our elected government put these projects in place. If you don't like them you can work to VOTE them out as you well know how to do!"

Oh, thank you. I'll start going door-to-door with a petition and see if we can get it on the ballot by 2020.

Hay




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Pidge_

This nostalgic desire for incandescent light bulbs would be funny if it weren't so blindly ignorant.

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Ann

I can't wait to have choice on this again. Some were smart enough to load up on incandescent light bulbs before the popular wattages left the shelves. I wasn't. I like some of the alternatives for outdoor lights and such, but in my living room and bedroom lamps, I hate not having the nice light of incandescent bulbs. So, I've been ordering them and they've been so inferior to the old GEs and such I used to buy.

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Ziemia(6a)

Figures

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haydayhayday

Pidge:

"This nostalgic desire for incandescent light bulbs would be funny if it weren't so blindly ignorant."

You just called me ignorant?

Show my what I've posted that showed my ignorance.


Hay

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althea_gw

The only ones at risk of blindness are those using LED lights. See the research.

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bleusblue2

haydayhayday

Bleusblue:

"Never know what the next tyrant's pet project might be -- are you talking about Saudi Arabia? Russia? North Korea?

Our elected government put these projects in place. If you don't like them you can work to VOTE them out as you well know how to do!"

Oh, thank you. I'll start going door-to-door with a petition and see if we can get it on the ballot by 2020.

Hay

~~~~~ Ok -- do that -- and vote for the one you like. There is no tyrant preventing you from voting for the party that will support your issues.

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elvis

Not yet. Keep trying.

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haydayhayday

"~~~~~ Ok -- do that -- and vote for the one you like. There is no tyrant preventing you from voting for the party that will support your issues."

People will vote in tyrants.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/4919

"On Wednesday, the Venezuelan government announced a series of new measures to reduce the consumption and increase the production of electricity, which has been rationed over the past two months through daily, one to two-hour rolling power outages in much of the country."
...

the government will revamp its two year-old “Energy Revolution” light bulb exchange program by replacing 74 million incandescent light bulbs with fluorescent, energy-saving bulbs.

...

Businesses which do not comply with the new regulations will be taken over by the state, “with the goal that this energy contribute to the provision of public electricity services,” according to the executive measure emitted by the Council of Ministers this week."

Clearly, I'm in the minority here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

There's more than one meaning of tyranny.

No need to be so confining.

Definition of tyranny

1: oppressive power

...every form of tyranny over the mind of man— Thomas Jefferson

Hay

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haydayhayday

Pidge:

"This nostalgic desire for incandescent light bulbs would be funny if it weren't so blindly ignorant."

While we're waiting...and waiting...

This is not a matter of a "nostalgic desire for incandescent light bulbs ".

I'm covered for life.

"Nothing quite like waking up to the warm glow of incandescent bulbs to brighten up your day."


I do it for the children.

Hay


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haydayhayday

Ann:

"I can't wait to have choice on this again. Some were smart enough to load up on incandescent light bulbs before the popular wattages left the shelves. I wasn't. I like some of the alternatives for outdoor lights and such, but in my living room and bedroom lamps, I hate not having the nice light of incandescent bulbs. So, I've been ordering them and they've been so inferior to the old GEs and such I used to buy."

You realize that, ("I can't wait to have choice on this again." ), nothing really changed with your CURRENT choices. It's just that even more stringent requirements WILL NOT BE IMPOSED on those current choices. You're still quite limited in what you can buy in the incandescent aisle.

It's taken me a while to realize that "incandescent" includes the Halogen bulbs. Which, while technically, "incandescent", they're not the same "incandescent" that we love. Different light entirely and very hot. Very hot and potentially very dangerous.

It's always good to remember that "incandescents" were not literally banned. They just have to meet more restrictive "efficiency" standards.


"So, I've been ordering them and they've been so inferior to the old GEs and such I used to buy."

Share with us just exactly what you've been buying?

Hay






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watchmelol

Anyone here other than me have Menieire's Disease, chronic migraine or other vestibular disorders? Then you can be free to yap about how wonderful LED lights are. For people with vestibular disorders light sources matter.

Those wonderful energy saving lights at best sap the energy of those who are afflicted. At worst they can sent one into a spiral of migraines, vertigo and vomiting. Some people can't leave their homes or drive. Some have such horrid attacks that they require a trip to the ER or hospitalization. I am lucky so far not to be one of them. But my Meniere's can manifest itself to be come life debilitating at any time. I am already deaf. "New age" lighting from florescent lighting on was my fist clue something was wrong looking back long before I ever dreamed I was ill.

I stockpiled incandescent bulbs and fixtures long before I was diagnosed.and even before my deafness. Best decision I ever made following my gut instincts.

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Ann

Hayday, 1000bulbs.com, but it's probably been a year since my last order, so I haven't looked at the current selection. What I've found, with the bulbs that are somewhat affordable, is the glass is super thin. Also, occasionally the filament breaks right when you screw them in, but if you successfully get that far, they seem to do okay. I miss good old GE bulbs.

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elvis

I watch for them at the thrift shops.

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bleusblue2

hayhayhayhay

"~~~~~ Ok -- do that -- and vote for the one you like. There is no tyrant preventing you from voting for the party that will support your issues."

People will vote in tyrants.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/4919 etcetera etcetera etcetera etcetera.... see original long post above ....

~~~~

big big stretch. be careful, don't hurt yourself.

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elvis

Watchme, I'm so sorry about your difficulties. You are so good-humored, one would never know you're fighting this awful problem. My best wishes to you.

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Izzy Mn(4)

Well, I think the push button phones should be band. We need to go back to the old style rotary phone. You got more finger exercise and dexterity using those. Plus the young ones got a lesson in patience waiting to dial the next number....... ;-)

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elvis

Ah, the good old days. Remember prank phone calls? "Say, is your refrigerator running? You better go and catch it!"

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haydayhayday

bleusblue:

"big big stretch. be careful, don't hurt yourself."

Rather silly game you're playing.

You don't think the Venezuelans elected a tyrant, several times now, as leader of Venezuela?

How would you characterize Chavez and Maduro?

Hay

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haydayhayday

Izzy:

"Well, I think the push button phones should be band. We need to go back to the old style rotary phone. You got more finger exercise and dexterity using those. Plus the young ones got a lesson in patience waiting to dial the next number....... ;-)

More silliness.

In my particular case, (I heat with electricity. these bulbs are ideal for me), these bulbs make a lot of sense. Not every "modern" invention fits very need.


But, the real point is this:

Do we really want YOU to be allowed to decide the lighting system in my bedroom?

And, if you answer yes, Do YOU really want me to decide the lighting system in your bedroom?


Let me know. I have some great ideas.

You have a problem with MY freedom?

Hay

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haydayhayday

Life is much more than a quest for "Efficiency".

The Soviet Union established some very "efficient", "modern" factories;

Is this what you're looking for?

https://youtu.be/DcceduBE_o0

Might be the perfect life for you.

Hay


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haydayhayday

A while back, I was wondering if there were every any Nobel Prize Economics winners from the USSR.

There's One. Only one.

This is the Economic questions in the USSR. All you need to know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Kantorovich

"Leonid Vitaliyevich Kantorovich (19 January 1912 – 7 April 1986) was a Soviet mathematician and economist, known for his theory and development of techniques for the optimal allocation of resources. He is regarded as the founder of linear programming. He was the winner of the Stalin Prize in 1949 and the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1975."

If that's all you want out of life.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Efficient housing.




What's not to love?

It'd be even more efficient if they'd just choose one single color.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Yesterday was a wonderful day. I gardened. As I was harvesting my potatoes, in the golden glow of the Golden Hour,...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hour_(photography)


...As I was gardening in the wonderful glow of the sunset, listening to my bird friends, enjoying the crisp Autumn hour, I started thinking:


What a waste. I could have bought potatoes at the supermarket and saved myself a lot of time and trouble.

Ignorance.


Hay

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chijim

elvis

BTW - for those against the LED streetlights, the Chicago police and people out on the street at night like them.

Oh, when Chicago replaced the old incandescent bulbs with sodium
vapor bulbs(seen below) we also had people screaming the sky was
falling.

Not me. When I had to be out at night in the old neighborhood (West
Side of Chicago), I stuck to the shadows, harder for the bad guys to see
you. The bright lights makes targets stand out. It's harder to get
shot when they can't clearly see the victim. For general, run of the
mill attacks, i.e. rape/robbery/stabbing, also makes it harder to tell
your gender, size, and whether you might be armed.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I assume then you apply the same principles to your home--i.e., keep it in compete darkness so burglars can't find it or so that neighbors can't see if anybody is lurking about trying to break in and not make it easier for the police catch them?

Now at night, when I look out my front windows --w/the new brighter LED streetlights, I can see if anybody is messing around w/the parked cars or if anybody suspicious is on a neighbor's property


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elvis

Enjoy the view.

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haydayhayday

"Enjoy the view."

I can actually see stars at night.

Hay

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

That's why I have 11 (not 12, I recounted them) outdoor, double bulbed, LED motion detector lights around the house, garage, and gardens. Basically to deter 4 and 2 legged critters at night, plus a little late gardening at times.

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chijim

vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

That's
why I have 11 (not 12, I recounted them) outdoor, double bulbed, LED
motion detector lights around the house, garage, and gardens. Basically
to deter 4 and 2 legged critters at night, plus a little late gardening
at times

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yes, security lighting contributes to peace of mind

BTW - I was so happy to finally find LED bulbs that worked in the motion detector fixtures.

Not only have they saved me $$$ on my electric bill, I no longer have the yearly expense of replacing the Halogen bulbs....and having to go up a ladder to replace.

BTW - the LED floods performed as usual even during the polar vortex when it was -28 below

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haydayhayday

chijim:

"Yes, security lighting contributes to peace of mind

BTW - I was so happy to finally find LED bulbs that worked in the motion detector fixtures.

Not only have they saved me $$$ on my electric bill, I no longer have the yearly expense of replacing the Halogen bulbs....and having to go up a ladder to replace."

Must be nice when you find something that works for you.


Hay

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terrene(5b MA)

Ugh I hate motion detector lights. So annoying coming on and off all the time. Don't care much for street lights either. When going outside at night I'll turn on the outdoor light for a minute or use a headlamp. But mostly I enjoy the darkness esp when sleeping or looking at the night sky.

enjoying the crisp Autumn hour,

Autumn? Not until the 23rd.

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elvis

I like headlamps too, terrene. Say, what time of day exactly will it officially be "autumn"? I want to know when it's okay to "enjoy the crisp autumn hour(s)".

;D

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patriciae_gw(07)

A headlamp is the visual equivalence of a target on your forehead. That is if you are paranoid to the point of hanging out in the shadows.

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watchmelol

I assume then you apply the same principles to your home--i.e., keep it in compete darkness so burglars can't find it or so that neighbors can't see if anybody is lurking about trying to break in and not make it easier for the police catch them?

I do. Why give crooks and thieves light to work by? Make them bring their own light. Then I see them first. Well actually my dog will see/hear them first and alert me. She is not a barker. One woof or low growl. A paw on me to let me know. I have also politely requested that nearby neighbors not allow their security lights to trespass on my property or shine toward my windows or front door. Nothing worse than being blinded by someone else's security lights.

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althea_gw

We used to have an outdoor security light on the garage. Everything that walked by set it off. Because of the grade, cats, rabbits and even squirrels were big enough to turn it on. After a string of garage break-ins in the neighborhood, we noticed the light was no longer coming on. Checking we found it had been unscrewed. The garage was locked so there was no break-in. Clearly the would be burglar didn't want to be seen attempting to break in.

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Andie

BTW - I was so happy to finally find LED bulbs that worked in the motion detector fixtures.


What did you find? We tried LED in the old motion detector fixtures, but they flicker.

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terrene(5b MA)

Elvis at 07:40 UTC or 02:40 EDT on the 23rd you can enjoy the crisp autumn air! :)

A headlamp is the visual equivalence of a target on your forehead.

Not sure what that means? But a headlamp works great when I need both hands picking beetles off the veggies at night.

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terrene(5b MA)

Ooops sorry that's 07:50!! Dang why doesn't the edit work?

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enegiram

althea_gw

Not gonna happen Andie. There is no reason people who use incandescent bulbs responsibly should be penalized. How you light your own home is a personal choice that the government has no business interfering in.

Why shouldn't the government interfere with what kind of lighting you use in your home; they tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?

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bleusblue2

enegiram

althea_gw

Not gonna happen Andie. There is no reason people who use incandescent bulbs responsibly should be penalized. How you light your own home is a personal choice that the government has no business interfering in.

Why shouldn't the government interfere with what kind of lighting you use in your home; they tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?

~~~

And now the government wants car manufacturers to pollute!!! Or they'll be prosecuted!!! Diverting the thread? sorry

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elvis

patriciae_gw(07)

A headlamp is the visual equivalence of a target on your forehead. That is if you are paranoid to the point of hanging out in the shadows.

Ah, well, if you want to get all technical about it, I just flash the intruder with my trusty headlamp, temporarily blinding her. Then my brave standard Doodle takes 'er down.

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elvis

headlamp works great when I need both hands picking beetles off the veggies at night

Thanks, terrene, works great for nighttime picking off slugs too. Or hunting nightcrawlers for fishing.

_____________

Why shouldn't the government interfere with what kind of lighting you use in your home; they tell you what you can and can't do with your own body?

No it doesn't. For example, you can get just as fat as you want to. As long as you're just messing with your own life and no one else's, the government leaves you alone. I suppose that could change with Medicare for All, though. Sorry for the diversion, that's on enegiram.

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dandyfopp

Not orange spackle, but the bulbs guys.

Not sure who he is going to send up to change out the energy efficient bulb in the sun.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-blames-energy-saving-lightbulbs-for-his-bright-orange-appearance

Trump Blames Energy-Saving Light Bulbs for His Bright Orange Appearance

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Ziemia(6a)

"There is no reason people who use incandescent bulbs responsibly should be penalized. How you light your own home is a personal choice that the government has no business interfering in."

When you've built your own power supply system on your property, then your argument **might** make sense.

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althea_gw

"When you've built your own power supply system on your property, then your argument **might** make sense."

Ziemia, build my own power supply?!?! ? That is novel, I must say. Are home made power supplies pretty common in your area? What you are really saying is that you not only want to decide how I light my home, but also how I obtain the energy to light my home. Neither you nor the government have a right to decide either.

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haydayhayday

Dandy:

"Trump Blames Energy-Saving Light Bulbs for His Bright Orange Appearance"

Thing is, he's right about how we look in incandescent light in comparison to the other light choices!

Most people are brutes when it comes to realizing and understanding how they look in different lighting.

Not me.

One of the most revealing lessons I got in life was a sweetheart who gave me a gift for my birthday:

Attending a little group session from a Color Me Beautiful consultant. Do it for yourself. It will forever change how you look at your clothing choices.

Me and three or so other professional women (I'm male. Lucky me.) who sat, one after the other, in front of the rest of the group while the consultant would place different swatches of cloth, in different colors. across the front of our chest. The rest of us would sit there and give a thumbs up or down.

I'm a Winter. You are the brutes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=color+me+beautiful+winter+palette&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6osWE8s3kAhVhnuAKHfyaD0cQ_AUIESgB&biw=1440&bih=753

....................

https://www.colormebeautiful.com/seasons/winter/index.html

Hay, Beauty Consultant.




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Andie

dandyfopp, it's even worse hearing him say it.

https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/status/1172439382940254209


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haydayhayday


althea:

"What you are really saying is that you not only want to decide how I light my home, but also how I obtain the energy to light my home. Neither you nor the government have a right to decide either."

Good luck trying to plead that in front of the judge.

That's the issue.

Hay


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catspat(aka)

What you are really saying is that you not only want to decide how I light my home, but also how I obtain the energy to light my home. Neither you nor the government have a right to decide either.


Althea's choice of light bulb, because it requires more energy, also requires that the energy provider to build more power plants. As long as the pricing structure is geared to eliminate that externality by charging more per unit for increased use above a baseline number of units (e.g. tiered pricing), I'm okay with that. Without tiered pricing, though, those who conserve would be unfairly charged for infrastructure that was only necessitated by the personal choice of others. Both energy and water are priced that way where I live.

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Ziemia(6a)

I'm not OK as currently producing extra power produces extra pollution.

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Ziemia(6a)

So, holding onto incandescents has a public impact.

Install your own windmill or solar panels. Or extract heat from the earth.

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Ziemia(6a)

How one discards "sharps" used within one's home is regulated for the health of everyone.

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elvis

Well, I'm not okay with your makeup mirror, electric toothbrush, coffee maker, or microwave oven. Who gets to decide?

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Ziemia(6a)

What about the freedom to dispose of sanitary waste?

It's not about "using" the "incandescent" bulbs - it's about the related waste from the needed resources.

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Ziemia(6a)

Who decides? Our representative government.

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haydayhayday

Ziemia:

"I'm not OK as currently producing extra power produces extra pollution."

Do us all a favor and turn off your computer.

Hay

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althea_gw

"Good luck trying to plead that in front of the judge.

That's the issue.

Hay"

Explanations appear to be a waste of time, and energy.

"Althea's choice of light bulb, because it requires more energy, also requires that the energy provider to build more power plants."

Catspat, no, it means moving to renewable energy sources and taking existing fossil fueled plants off line as they are replaced by cleaner energy. See my posts upthread.

"Install your own windmill or solar panels. Or extract heat from the earth."

Personal responsibility, a favorite right wing talking point.

Some people in MN had a good idea. (Note the yellow light designating an incandescent bulb)


I brought this up earlier in the thread. Worth repeating hoping it will be read and understood. Emphasis mine.

"Minnesotans wanting clean, renewable energy are getting another option as a new network of community solar farms goes online.

Starting Tuesday, residents in 34 Minnesota counties will be able to sign up for CleanChoice Energy's new network of eight solar farms.

For people living in those counties, the project offers a simple, new way to get solar energy for their homes and, CleanChoice hopes, eventually a smaller electric bill for those enrolled.

Six of the farms are already on Xcel Energy's grid, with the final two expected to join in the next couple months.

Collectively, the eight farms will produce 42.5 megawatts of solar energy. That's enough to power almost 7,000 homes, according to industry estimates.

At the end of 2017, Minnesota had 715 megawatts in total solar capacity. About 295 megawatts of that amount were considered community solar.

"Not only will this portfolio expand the overall available capacity of the community solar market by over 10 percent, but it allows for residential subscribers to access community solar," said Laura Pagliarulo, a managing director for CleanChoice. "So we're expanding the availability of residential subscriptions by over 50 percent, which is really exciting."

Community solar projects are driving solar's overall growth in Minnesota. Xcel Energy controls most of the community solar grid, though 30 utilities dipped into the industry last year

The goal of community solar projects is to facilitate solar power options for interested people without requiring them to install panels on their roof. It spreads the work and cost.

Part of CleanChoice's intent for the project is to make it easier for residents, rather than just businesses, to access solar power.

CleanChoice won a $2.5 million grant from the Department of Energy to develop an easy online experience for joining community solar projects, said Kate Colarulli, a vice-president for the company.

The new Minnesota solar network is one of the first projects to use this technology, she said, which has been in the works for more than a year. "

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/05/01/new-project-expands-solar-offerings-for-minn-residents

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haydayhayday

althea;

"Explanations appear to be a waste of time, and energy."

Ain't it the truth!


terrene:


" Hay, I'm not an expert, but my guess is there are better ways to generate heat, like a heater. "



Ziemia:


"I'm not OK as currently producing extra power produces extra pollution."


Hay

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catspat(aka)

Catspat, no, it means moving to renewable energy sources and taking existing fossil fueled plants off line as they are replaced by cleaner energy. See my posts upthread.

Renewable energy sources are cost-free? Whether it's your solar panels or the energy company's, if you use more energy, more infrastructure is needed and it's still an additional cost, both money- and resources-wise. If you are willing to pay all the costs, including externalities (neither solar or wind energy are externality-free, by the way), no problem. Physicist husband's intuition is that even the energy fed into biosphere by "renewables" is not sustainable, being an added input that was not there until relatively recently, but that's a whole other topic...

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althea_gw

"Who decides? Our representative government."

I believe Donald Trump was elected. President of the United States.

"Renewable energy sources are cost-free? ..."

Catspat, we are talking about carbon emissions in this thread.

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Ziemia(6a)

Who here said Trump doesn't have the right to do what he did?

I recall this (our comments) is mostly about the merits of incandescents and thus the merits of Trump's decision.

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Ziemia(6a)

Hay - right on the edge there of insulting me. It may be funny to some but it isn't universally funny.

(And you don't know the power demand of my chosen device.)

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Ziemia(6a)

Along with Althea and elvis.

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Ziemia(6a)

Althea - you think my points are typical of the right wing?

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catspat(aka)

Catspat, we are talking about carbon emissions in this thread.

Where do you get your energy at night, on cloudy days, or when the wind doesn't blow, althea? Home batteries in conjunction with solar/wind are mostly not ready (not enough capacity) to replace the need for an external, presumably carbon-based power supply (unless it's nuclear). Batteries, solar panels, and wind turbines also all have their own carbon and other environmental footprints in their manufacture, although those are mostly way more than mitigated over their lifetimes in fossil-fuel avoidance.

Bottom line is that using more energy costs more carbon, and more across many other factors, than using less energy, even if use of renewables is amped up. There is no free lunch.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Even in Minnesota solar and wind and water will not and CANNOT handle our electrical/heat/light needs most of the year. Imagine below zero nightime tempuratures for 16 hours a day. It's normally calm when it gets cold-or we have raging winds that cause you have to shut down wind plants. Needless to say water generated electricity is a no-go.

What else, other than coal, gas, oil, or wood to keep us warm and running at night (ain't no battery going to do that.)

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Ziemia(6a)

Reducing the size of one's "footprint" starts with:

Reduce

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Ziemia(6a)

Since power is needed - let's reduce our demand

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Ziemia(6a)

Does the Niagara power plant have seasons with no production?

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

The Niagra River is larger, deeper, and at a lower, warmer latitude than anything around here. And the Niagra plant does shut down at times.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Ziemia, we reduce as much as we can. Heavy insulation, triple glazed windows, temps set at 70 in winter, 78 in summer, LED lights where feasible, tankless water heater. We conserve alot more in the northern regions than most do in the southern ones. We have air conditioning in less than 50% of our homes here.

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chijim

Andie

BTW - I was so happy to finally find LED bulbs that worked in the motion detector fixtures.


What did you find? We tried LED in the old motion detector fixtures, but they flicker.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

They're Phillips 15watt replaces 100 watt incandescent and are suitable for use in wet locations They're also dimmable/work in motion detector lights.

One caveat - they are cool blue - it was my only option back then but in the end, it's way brighter than the Halogen floods.

I bought them at Home Depot a few yrs back


I replaced 400 watts with 60 watts in the back of my house

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Ziemia(6a)

Every reduction helps - especially those that happen in millions of households.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

What did you find? We tried LED in the old motion detector fixtures, but they flicker.

Only one of my 11 motion detector fixtures flickered when I installed the new LED bulbs, it stopped flickering when I reinstalled one of the old bulbs and then both acted normally. It could have been the model of fixture as all 11 are a mix of several brands over the years. The LEDs I used are FEIT brand which were sold at LOWES about 3 years ago at 2/$10. The only reason I know the bulb brand is that I stored the old bulbs in the used led boxes and they're still on a shelf in the garage.

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Andie

One caveat - they are cool blue


That's what I want to avoid. I wonder if warm is available now. I'll have to start looking again.

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Andie

Only one of my 11 motion detector fixtures flickered when I installed the new LED bulbs, it stopped flickering when I reinstalled one of the old bulbs and then both acted normally


Are you saying you're using both incandescent and LED in the same fixture? I think dh only tried the LED in one fixture.

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althea_gw

"Where do you get your energy at night, ...."

The goal posts appear to be moving. Oh well.

I clicked on one of the links in the article I last posted which tells me this.

"Battery storage can help us use the sun's energy more effectively by saving it for when we really need it.

"Solar plus storage is like peanut butter and chocolate. Two great things that go even better together," said Sean Gallagher, vice president of state affairs at the Solar Energy Industries Association.

Several states have ambitious plans for battery storage — California is looking to reach 1,300 megawatts of storage by 2020, and New York wants to add 1,500 megawatts by 2025, Gallagher said.

"There are a number of states that are still moving forward with their climate and sustainability goals, and adding storage to the system will help them do that," he said. "

This article was write-in Jan. '18 so you will need to find out what advances have been made after this on your own.

I thought this metaphor, "community solar gardens" from the same article was charming.

"Meanwhile, community solar gardens continue to drive the solar growth in Minnesota. The gardens are shared among customers who want solar electricity without having to install panels on their homes.

"It's a way for them to participate in the growth of renewable energy themselves, receive electric credits on their utility bill," said David Amster-Olszewski, founder and CEO of SunShare, a Colorado-based company.

Or is it just a metaphor? I don't know which column the bean counters will enter this. Is there a column for Gestalt?

"The environmental benefits of Connexus Energy's solar-plus-storage project are obvious enough, but this time of year, you'll notice something more: prairie grasses and flowers planted under and around the sea of solar panels.

Pollinator-friendly plantings at large solar energy sites have become common in Minnesota in recent years. Not only do they provide habitat for the bee and butterfly populations people have been concerned about, but they also promote soil health and probably even boost the solar panels' electricity output on warm days.

The National Renewable Energy Lab is using the Ramsey Renewable Station and a couple dozen other sites around the country to test that.

"Their hypothesis is that thicker vegetation under and around solar panels creates a cooler microclimate, which actually generates more electricity from the panels," said Rob Davis, who directs the Center for Pollinators in Energy at the Minnesota advocacy group Fresh Energy.

The group has promoted pollinator plantings at solar sites for several years. It's now become mainstream, with the state's largest utility, Xcel Energy, saying it will require solar developers to include plans for plantings at proposed sites. The practice is common in the U.K., and Connexus was the first to try it in Minnesota with a small solar array at its headquarters in 2014, Davis said.

The project would have been covered with gravel, but Connexus staff intervened. In the years since the pollinator habitat was planted there, pictures of the site has been featured in publications such as National Geographic and Martha Stewart Living, Davis said.

Recently, researchers have found bee and butterfly populations are declining — a trend linked to disease, parasites, decreased biodiversity, agricultural practices such as row-cropping and pesticide use, and climate change.

In some parts of the world, the problem is so serious that work crews pollinate crops by hand.

"There's so many pollinator-dependent crops that we all love and enjoy — blueberries and apples — but every single apple flower needs to be visited two to three times by a bee," Davis said.

During a Connexus Energy open house on Wednesday, adults and kids planted milkweed along the fence line at the new solar-plus-storage facility in Ramsey.

"It's neat to hear that the land is good for more than just the solar panels," said Michelle Austin-Dehn, of Ramsey, who brought her two sons to the event in the family's electric car. Last year, she said, the kids grew milkweed and collected caterpillars. They also compost and try to use environmentally friendly products.

"It's important," she said. "It's one big planet and we're all connected."

{clip}

"We all know we need to get to higher and higher levels of carbon-free electricity on the grid, he said, "so our strategy is, if we can find projects that will both save us money and green the electricity that we're adding to the grid, those are good projects."

Ridderbusch added on sunny days, power from the panels costs less than power from the electricity grid. In addition, the power saved in the batteries helps the co-op rely less on the grid at times when wholesale electricity is most expensive — at peak times, like when everybody gets home from work and school and turns on the air conditioning.

"Over the next 25 years, the plantings that will be here will improve the soil, and it will be a habitat for pollinators — we actually have a farm next door," Ridderbusch said.

That farm grows pumpkins and melons. Those plants, plus the pollinator habitat planted alongside the panels make it a good spot to make honey. Connexus is working with Minneapolis-based Bare Honey, which has placed bee hives on the site."

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/06/20/pollinatorfriendly-solar-energy-becomes-the-norm-in-minnesota

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Stan Areted

Well intentioned efforts, all.

I make them, too.

And the people that lecture us the most fly private jets, travel to Europe, stay on yachts, have expensive food flown in for their earth saving events, and bring along an army of ladies and men and boys and girls in waiting to do their hair, makeup, their press, and who knows what else.

While Barbara Streisand told people back in 2008 to not use their washers and dryers as much and to hang their clothes outside to dry. Just not where she could see them. Or hers, either. I recall reading about problems with her neighbors and landscaping lights being too bright. Go figure.


"Last week it was 114 in Paris and Guadalajara was buried in 3 feet of ice from a hailstorm. Climate change is here now and it is time for voters to remove the climate deniers from office. Starting with Trump."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/07/01/freak-summer-hailstorm-buries-mexican-city-under-five-feet-ice/ …


And here we are, spending money on CFL lights that were and are dangerous, not effective, and buying LEDs (which I find acceptable enough for outdoor home lighting and landscape lighting, certainly time saving not changing bulbs often) which are depressing and cannot hold a candle (pun intended) to incandescent lighting, for those that can comprehend and appreciate the difference.

We weren't supposed to use paper sacks or paper straws, now we can't use plastic.

There is no easy solution but I'm sick of being lectured by hypocrites. I'll do my part what I think I should do, but my rights to light bulbs, water or anything else aren't going to be dictated by hypocrites that exempt themselves.

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Ziemia(6a)

LOL

"... for those that can comprehend and appreciate the difference."

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

"Are you saying you're using both incandescent and LED in the same fixture? I think dh only tried the LED in one fixture."

Yes, 2 LEDs flickered, installing 1 incan + 1 LED stopped the flickering and the fixture then worked normally. That was about 3 years ago and all 11 are doing their job without any bulb burnouts so far.

BTW, the homes in my neighborhood all have at least 1 acre lots so there's plenty of distance between houses without being disturbed by night lights. My fixtures have the cone shaped bulb protectors which keep the light directed downward that helps avoid random light pollution scatter.

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haydayhayday

Stan:

"and buying LEDs...which are depressing and cannot hold a candle (pun intended) to incandescent lighting, for those that can comprehend and appreciate the difference."

Yep.

"Most people are brutes when it comes to realizing and understanding how they look in different lighting."

Hay


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