The “pro-life” movement is fundamentally about misogyny.

chijim

A new poll shows what really interests 'pro-lifers': controlling women

Jill Filipovic

According to their own survey responses, anti-abortion voters are hostile to gender equality in practically every aspect

According to self-identified “pro-life” advocates, the fundamental divide between those who want to outlaw abortion and those who want to keep it legal comes down to one question: when does life begin? Anti-abortion advocacy pushes the view that life begins at conception; the name of their movement carefully centers the conceit that opposition to abortion rights is simply about wanting to save human lives.

A new poll shows that’s a lie. The “pro-life” movement is fundamentally about misogyny.


A Supermajority/PerryUndem survey released this week divides respondents by their position on abortion, and then tracks their answers to 10 questions on gender equality more generally. On every question, anti-abortion voters were significantly more hostile to gender equity than pro-choice voters.

To continue: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/22/a-new-poll-shows-what-really-interests-pro-lifers-controlling-women

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Hmm--some examples from the OP--for your contemplation.

------------------------------------

"A new poll shows that’s a lie. The “pro-life” movement is fundamentally about misogyny.

A Supermajority/PerryUndem survey released this week divides respondents by their position on abortion, and then tracks their answers to 10 questions on gender equality more generally. On every question, anti-abortion voters were significantly more hostile to gender equity than pro-choice voters.

Do men make better political leaders than women? More than half of anti-abortion voters agreed. Do you want there to be equal numbers of men and women in positions of power in America? Fewer than half of abortion opponents said yes – compared with 80% of pro-choicers, who said they want women to share in power equally.

Anti-abortion voters don’t like the #MeToo movement. They don’t think the lack of women in positions of power impacts women’s equality. They don’t think access to birth control impacts women’s equality. They don’t think the way women are treated in society is an important issue in the 2020 election."

-----------------------------

Maybe this is why the anti-choice movement is sometimes accused of being anti-women?


Kate

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Rudebekia

Stereotypes, anyone? I am 100% pro-life and work actively for children's causes in my local area as well as supporting women through pregnancy and beyond. Abortion kills babies in the womb and hurts women. It is false feminism.

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maifleur01

Children in the womb also can kill women but apparently that does not matter.

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Ziemia(6a)

It's about a poll so sure, yes to stereotypes.

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dandyfopp

Seen on any thread covering abortion that is posted on this forum.

The hatred of and desire to control women is embedded in nearly every anti choice response.



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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I liked the poll questions, lol.


"Agree women are too easily offended"


and


"agree men generally make better political leaders than women"


Why don't I ever get these calls. All I ever get are school choice ones...



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ubro(2a)

as well as supporting women through pregnancy and beyond. Abortion kills babies in the womb and hurts women. It is false feminism.


I hope you also support those women who have to make the awful choice of having an abortion.

It is false feminism to support only those women who choose to keep the child and not those who choose to not, whatever the reason.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Life does NOT begin at conception. You can dismiss that fantasy to start with. Biological BS.

As for the rest, I agree that most so called pro life, which in fact is pro-birth, are not pro-life. So we have to figure out what they are pro and pro control seems to me to be the real agenda. Keeping women in "their proper place" It is a part of most religions in that most religions are misogynist. How else do you explain the lack of female power in religions. All the gods are misogynist? What a coinky dink.

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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

This is from a totally different standpoint, but is something worth mentioning I think at a time when overpopulation is one of the most critical factors of global warming and most of the ecological disasters in the world. The right of a woman to determine her fate is of critical importance, but equally so at this stage is the limitation of the world's population if we're to survive as a species. To call an embryo that measures an inch a baby as though it were a sentient being is a cruel hoax. What about the millions and billions of sentient beings that are animals that we use and abuse as though they were anything less than that? Our values and actions are dangerously skewed, and never more so than in the case of those among us who want to control humans and animals, without an ounce of real compassion for either one.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Interestingly enough Ingrid, I totally agree you. An inch long blob with a big head and a tail is surely not a baby. What about when it is 5lbs with arms and legs and everything, is it a baby then? Is there some equivalence between between cruelly ending the life of a sentient creature and ending the life of a sapient one in your mind?



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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Abortion kills babies in the womb and hurts women. It is false feminism. [bolding mine]


Not backed up by the facts, and definitely not your call to make for someone else.

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HU9999

Yep, poll just confirms what is blatanly obvious from the abortion threads here.

They are not pro-life. They are pro-birth. And they are most certainly anti-women.

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Stan Areted

I think abortion is pure feminism--love of self over children.

In most cases.

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patriciae_gw(07)

What do you call love of "children" over women? Misogyny maybe?

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Delilah66

“What about when it is 5lbs with arms and legs and everything, is it a baby then? Is there some equivalence between between cruelly ending the life of a sentient creature and ending the life of a sapient one in your mind?”

What about the crappy parents of that baby who are forced to deliver it to the world absent any sense to raise the child who then becomes a shooter in a mass murder? Bad parents!

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elvis

patriciae_gw(07)

Life does NOT begin at conception. You can dismiss that fantasy to start with. Biological BS.

If that were true. no one would get an abortion. If there is no life, it's certainly not going to grow. Problem solved. Whew! One less thing, thanks patriciae.

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elvis

Stan Areted

I think abortion is pure feminism--love of self over children.

In most cases.

I don't know that I'd characterize abortion as love of self, but it's certainly selfish. Of course, people should look after themselves, including thinking about what's best for them. But when you add another life to the equation, there's a big new important dimension. You can't just kill someone because they're inconvenient. If you could, just think of all the divorces that would be rendered unnecessary.

The idea that becoming pregnant is just an "oops!" situation is pretty tragic.

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Carro

A baby from conception is a living, human organism. If it were not, it would decay, not grow.

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ubro(2a)

The idea that becoming pregnant is just an "oops!" situation is pretty tragic.

Any yet it often is. The idea that every pregnancy is the result of a consensual union or is a healthy situation for the mother is pretty tragic.

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Ziemia(6a)

The relationship between being a "pro-lifer" and seeing women as *being less* is clear and obvious.

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elvis

Speaking for yourself, ziemia.

Ubro, that idea would be a mistake, of course. Fortunately, rape and a pregnancy that is a health risk to the mother are not the norm. I notice you call the pregnant woman a "mother". ;D

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Kitchenwitch111

"I’m Pro-life”

Define “life”

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patriciae_gw(07)

Conception only gets you the possibility of life. Most fertilized eggs do not make the cut. Even if the fertilized egg is viable it often does not implant and even when that happens the chance that it will slough off is considerable. The astonishing thing is that women (and other mammals) get pregnant at all. That is biology.

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maifleur01

One thing I noticed when one of the women I was working with was going ballistic and others were agreeing with her many do not know that miscarriages are classified as an abortion.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

It sounds right. It is the only reason I can imagine would be the issue. We have Pro-life Repubs that posted 8 yrs ago that were so upset that first and second graders were getting free breakfast.

Those same Pro-lifers are still posting today that they care about those unborn babies. But they could careless about that life when it is breathing air outside of the mother's belly. Free breakfast for those little tikes as they called them back then did not deserve or need free breakfast.

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elvis

maifleur01

One thing I noticed when one of the women I was working with was going ballistic and others were agreeing with her many do not know that miscarriages are classified as an abortion.

Yes, mai. As far as I can remember, it's been called a spontaneous abortion. Not the kind they sell at PP.

patriciae_gw(07)

Conception only gets you the possibility of life. Most fertilized eggs do not make the cut. Even if the fertilized egg is viable it often does not implant and even when that happens the chance that it will slough off is considerable

https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=31242

Dec 21, 2018 · Medical Definition of Conception. Conception: 1. The union of the sperm and the ovum. Synonymous with fertilization. 2. The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

The Children! As long as they are outside the womb, otherwise... Stem cells!

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ubro(2a)

Ubro, that idea would be a mistake, of course. Fortunately, rape and a pregnancy that is a health risk to the mother are not the norm.

Maybe not the norm, but some of the new laws don't make that distinction.

Do not confuse my word of 'mother' to mean I agree that the fetus is a 'baby'. The word 'mother' was used to refer to those women who need a late term abortion for safety, or those women who unfortunately miscarry and will be targeted just to satisfy the ' thirst to punish' that seems evident in the pro-life faction.

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ubro(2a)

The Children! As long as they are outside the womb, otherwise... Stem cells!

Oh dear, and these same posters rail at the left for inflammatory speech.

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maifleur01

Some of the new laws that want to criminalize abortions make no distinction between induced or spontaneous. This is why in the mind of the woman and the others urging her to have her record changed any abortion has to be criminal.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

That's just nonsense umbro. Yes, some women miscarry and get D and C. Yes, sometimes the health of the women is put at risk and thus requires an abortion. But, those don't account for but a fraction of the late term abortions performed.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, If you read what I said you will notice I covered fertilization(what the average fundy pro choicer means when they talk about conception) which is not by any means a guarantee of life and also implantation, also a sticky point in the process. It is difficult to get total specifics but estimates of losses of fertilized eggs can be as high as four out of five fertilizations. Three out of five is usual. Three out of five fertilized eggs do not end up in an established pregnancy. And things can go wrong at that point. Most spontaneous abortions occur in the first six weeks (about 80% if my recollection is accurate). Hard statistics for women who want to be pregnant.

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judeNY_gw

Late term abortions are rare. Check the definition of late term. Your "opinion" of what late term means does not count for anything.

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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

No one is talking about aborting a 5-lb. baby unless there is an extreme situation. Abortion to me means an embryo or an early-stage fetus. Let's be realistic about what is happening, and not engage in some right-wing fear mongering that has nothing to do with what's really happening.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Some sharp words in that piece:

"...This undermined the whole rightwing Christian project, which was, and remains, thoroughly invested in a nuclear family with a father at the head. And indeed, rightwing arguments against abortion used to invoke conservative gender tropes much more often – that abortion undermined the traditional family, for example.

Those arguments began to fall out of favor in a more feminist world, so the anti-abortion movement pivoted towards “life”. It was convenient: erase the pregnant woman and focus on the fetus. Defending life, abortion opponents have long claimed, has absolutely nothing to do with opposing rights for women.

Except, of course, that it does. Abortion rights advocates have spent decades pointing out that these self-styled pro-lifers don’t seem to care much about “life” once a baby is born. They want to cut aid to needy children and healthcare to poor mothers and pregnant women. They oppose contraception and sex education – the most effective ways to reduce the abortion rate. Many of them continue to support a president who separates small children from their parents and keeps them in squalid cages. “Life,” it seems, has precious little to do with being “pro-life”...."

And yes, it's not all 'pro-lifers' who are misogynistic - just somewhere around 2/3, according to the survey.

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elvis

This is why in the mind of the woman and the others urging her to have her record changed any abortion has to be criminal.

Mai, what are you talking about ^^^?

maifleur01

Some of the new laws that want to criminalize abortions make no distinction between induced or spontaneous

Which laws in which states? I think you have incorrect information.

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maifleur01

elvis she and the women she were talking to did not know that miscarriages were called spontaneous abortions. The only abortions they knew of were when someone purposely had one done. At the time she had her miscarriage abortions were against the law. The record to them meant she had broken the law and they all wanted the doctor to change the wording on her health record to miscarriage because they thought the other term meant she had broken the law by intentionally having a miscarriage.

Since it is almost impossible to tell if an abortion is induced or spontaneous any state that has a law against abortion a woman can be arrested for having an abortion if she has a miscarriage because there is little method to determine that she did not have it done. The various new laws working through the courts guarantee that some woman will be arrested for having a spontaneous abortion like the woman who was finally cleared this week in Central America.

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catspat(aka)

Which laws in which states? I think you have incorrect information.

The new law, HB481, in Georgia, for one:

HB 481 would also have consequences for women who get abortions from doctors or miscarry. A woman who seeks out an illegal abortion from a health care provider would be a party to murder, subject to life in prison. And a woman who miscarries because of her own conduct—say, using drugs while pregnant—would be liable for second-degree murder, punishable by 10 to 30 years’ imprisonment. Prosecutors may interrogate women who miscarry to determine whether they can be held responsible; if they find evidence of culpability, they may charge, detain, and try these women for the death of their fetuses.

The problem here is that it can be difficult/impossible to pinpoint why a fetus miscarried. This law makes every woman who miscarries a target. Note: I lost my first pregnancy to miscarriage, and had to have a D&C when the dead fetus failed to be expelled. There is no way of know if it was something I did that killed that fetus. Did I bend over wrong? Exercise too much? Exercise too little? Eat the wrong foods? In all likelihood, it was because the pregnancy was conceived through the low-dose birth control pills that were available at that time and not very effective, but maybe strong enough to kill the fetus they didn't prevent -- who knows? I could have perhaps been prosecuted for continuing to take those birth control pills before I knew I was pregnant, under Georgia's current law, or prosecuted "just because" of some inferred wrongdoing.

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terrene(5b MA)

Abortion is about misogyny, but even more so I think it's about social control. Men controlling women, religious zealots imposing their religious and moral beliefs on others, politicians posturing for political control by pandering to religious constituents, etc.

A few anti-abortion individuals appear to support all life, including immigrant children, heinous criminals, and non-human animals. But it's quite obvious that American culture is in general very accustomed to killing off many forms of life.


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artemis_ma

Without reading all the posts here, I'll note there seem to be two distinct "arms" of the pro-life movement. One is indeed bathed in misogyny.

The other "arm" is pro-life - both for healthy fetuses to be born, and, also at the other end of a typical lifespan, pretty much against the death penalty as well.

This arm had at least some of its roots in the Quaker movement. A couple years ago I visited the Susan B. Anthony birthplace home, in western Massachusetts (she was moved by family to New York when she was aged six). She went on to be active in four different, yet tied-together, causes:

She was active in the temperance movement, the abolition of slavery, the opposition to abortion, and of course the women’s suffrage (right to vote) movement. Unfortunately, she died in 1906, before the Constitutional amendment granting us women the right to carry out the civic duty of voting was granted.

I know in some South American countries it is illegal to abort ectopic pregnancies - since the fetus is by no means viable, this is a true example of misogyny.

I also know there's a large amount of hypocrisy going on with supposedly-pro-life legislators - who will quietly arrange with enough privacy for their own daughters or mistresses to get abortions. BUT if it's another woman they don't know??? Politics wins.

I'm also concerned that many in a supposed "pro-life" stance have zero concern about the infant once it is born. Caring about well-being is something that should at least be available until the kid is old enough (age of majority?) to make decisions for him or her self. You know, where they can reasonably be expected to stand or fall on their own life-choices.

Also, often the current pro-life ambiance doesn't always consider the sort of thing where a mother's health or life is in danger. Let the putative mother decide!

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HU9999

Pro-life means caring for the life after birth.

Pro-life would mean supporting free birth control to reduce the need for abortion.

Pro-life would mean supporting real sex education to reduce the need for abortion.

"Pro-lifers" don't support those things. They are not pro-life. They are pro-birth. It just sounds better to say pro-life. Talk about virtue signalling!

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elvis

elvis she and the women she were talking to did not know that miscarriages were called spontaneous abortions. The only abortions they knew of were when someone purposely had one done. At the time she had her miscarriage abortions were against the law. The record to them meant she had broken the law and they all wanted the doctor to change the wording on her health record to miscarriage because they thought the other term meant she had broken the law by intentionally having a miscarriage.

I see. I did look ^^^, but didn't find where you has posted about that. All I saw was this:

maifleur01

Some of the new laws that want to criminalize abortions make no distinction between induced or spontaneous. This is why in the mind of the woman and the others urging her to have her record changed any abortion has to be criminal.

maifleur01

One thing I noticed when one of the women I was working with was going ballistic and others were agreeing with her many do not know that miscarriages are classified as an abortion.

You left this part out: The record to them meant she had broken the law and they all wanted the doctor to change the wording on her health record to miscarriage because they thought the other term meant she had broken the law by intentionally having a miscarriage.

Thank you for explaining your posts. Now they make at least some sense. I don't need to know how a person's private health care record became a topic of conversation with "other women".

Okay, movin' on.

___________

I know in some South American countries it is illegal to abort ectopic pregnancies - since the fetus is by no means viable, this is a true example of misogyny.

I agree: that's barbaric.

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batyabeth

sorry I've been on vacation in chicago and took a long break. Back now for our regularly scheduled shenanigans. I have stopped using the language "pro-life", and begun using "pro-forced birth" to denote those who wold not only take away my right to choose whether to bear a child, but those (mostly) self same folks who also want to reduce access to birth control and sex education. There is no doubt in my mind that the pro-forced birth folks are misogynist, as they readily explain how we women can't be trusted to take reliable and safe birth control, fend off unwanted sexual intercourse or decide for ourselves what is safe for us and our families. We need mostly men to control our uteri, and make us criminals for controlling our own reproduction.

You will not win this forced-birth war on women and sovereignty of our own bodies . End of story.

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maifleur01

While I may not have liked all of the places I have worked I did like that at most of them people could discuss many topics that were supposed to be not discussed in public among the people present. Elvis's comment above reminded me that people do work in environments that nothing is discussed of personal matters and ignore when people are angry or sad.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Among the forced-birth contingent are those who are threatened by women being autonomous sexual beings -- making decisions outside a patriarchal framework.

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Stan Areted

batyabeth:


I have stopped using the language "pro-life", and begun using "pro-forced birth" to denote those who wold not only take away my right to choose whether to bear a child, but those (mostly) self same folks who also want to reduce access to birth control and sex education.

Please inform me of one person, or one group, who "want to reduce access to birth control."

I realize there are some who do not want sex education in the schools--particularly depending on what constitutes "sex education" (such as free condoms and instructions on how to have sex) so I removed that part.

Who exactly is attempting to or wants to deny people access to birth control?



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HU9999

You will not win this forced-birth war on women and sovereignty of our own bodies . End of story.

Amen! I agree 100%. I don't think they even understand what the backlash would be if they were to ever get Roe v Wade overturned. The GOP would regret taking that side of the fight very quickly.

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elvis

Who exactly is attempting to or wants to deny people access to birth control?

You won't get an answer, Stan. We know it's just more hysteria.

_____________

Mai, I guess there are places one can work that don't have busybodies with access to their co-workers' medical records. Go figure.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

My mom has mentioned several times that she objects to her medical record containing the phrase “spontaneous abortion.” She doesn’t think it is fair that they use the same word for a miscarriage and a therapeutic abortion.

(there is nothing odd or wrong about women discussing their personal lives. It’s quite common in strong female groups.)

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patriciae_gw(07)

Stan, do you not remember Hobby Lobbies law suit to prevent them from having to have health insurance that covered birth control? there were Catholic organizations that are on board with that as well. That does mean reduced access to BC. Plenty of fundy types do not want birth control to be available and say so. They consider it to be a form of abortion. Educate yourself. this is not new.

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Stan Areted


patriciae_gw(07)

Stan, do you not remember Hobby Lobbies law suit to prevent them from having to have health insurance that covered birth control? there were Catholic organizations that are on board with that as well. That does mean reduced access to BC. Plenty of fundy types do not want birth control to be available and say so. They consider it to be a form of abortion. Educate yourself. this is not new.


patriciae, please no condescension, Hobby Lobby has NOTHING to do with preventing people access to birth control.

Note how YOU worded something different, in bringing up Hobby Lobby and "to prefent them from having to have HEALTH INSURANCE THAT COVERED BIRTH CONTROL?"

HEALTH INSURANCE HAS NOTHING TO WITH ACCESS TO BIRTH CONTROL.

The fact that employees did not want to pay for CERTAIN TYPES OF BIRTH CONTROL that violated their religious beliefs is NOT preventing access to birth control.

So back off patriciae, I'm asking, who wants to deny ACCESS to birth control?

That is an entirely different issue than not wanting to pay for someone else's birth control.

Birth control can be paid for by individuals, people do it EVERY DAY and have for DECADES.

No one I know of is stopping anyone from going to a drug store and buying birth control, or going to a physician and getting a prescription or an implant of birth control, and getting that prescription filled or having the procedure.

No one is trying to shut down birth control.

Just some employers don't want to foot the bill for all types of birth control.

So back to the question and I'n waiting for an answer.

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catspat(aka)

Who exactly is attempting to or wants to deny people access to birth control?


Maybe too obvious? The Catholic Church.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I realize there are some who do not want sex education in the schools--particularly depending on what constitutes "sex education" (such as free condoms and instructions on how to have sex) so I removed that part.


Condoms are birth control, and you've given an example of an impediment to providing birth control. Of course, a teenager has to know what reproduction involves, and what condoms do, to have effective birth control. Denying teenagers this information also impacts as accessing birth control.


Planned Parenthood provides birth control, but many conservatives wish PP to be denied federal funding by FALSELY claiming that PP is mixing family planning with abortion services.

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Stan Areted

They're not trying to shut down pharmacies and gynecologists' offices.

If you consider abortion clinics birth control, then bingo. Pun intended.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

They are impeding teens from receiving information on s-x and reproduction, and restricting the availability of condoms.

Free condoms for teens who might not have much money -- good idea!

Edited to add: PP keeps birth control and reproductive services separate from abortion services. Yet conservatives continue to FALSELY conflate the two separate functions of PP.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

PP birth control services are totally and completely separate from abortion services

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catspat(aka)

Stan, the Catholic Church has acquired, and now controls, a substantial percentage of the hospitals in the U.S. over the past two decades in particular. Of patients, one in six are now treated in Catholic-owned hospitals, whether they are Catholic or not, and, too often, in rural areas, that is now the only choice, the Church having bought up and controlling, or providing, the only hospital for miles around. Catholic doctrine applies in Catholic hospitals and other spaces they own, whether you are of the religion or not.

If Catholics (ETA more properly, the Church, since not all Catholics, in the U.S. at least, strictly follow the doctrine) controlled all pharmacies, physician's offices, and hospitals, there would be no access to contraception. They run the main hospital in Santa Rosa, CA, where I was born, and, guess what, no contraception available there. It's a good thing Planned Parenthood exists.

And, no, I don't consider abortion birth control.

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catspat(aka)

ETA source:

Contraception, including permanent sterilization, is not allowed within Catholic hospitals, clinics, or in doctors’ offices that rent space from a Catholic facility. Rather, the Ethical and Religious Directives state that hospitals should provide, “for married couples and the medical staff who counsel them, instruction both about Church’s teaching on responsible parenthood and in methods of natural family planning.” This does not apply only to Catholic couples or patients, but to every patient receiving care in a Catholic facility, leading to restrictions that contravene what many expect. source


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Stan Areted


nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

They are impeding teens from receiving information on s-x and reproduction, and restricting the availability of condoms.

Good grief, how ridiculous!

Who is "they" and you think I believe for one minute that teens are so stupid as to not figure out how to read or find information on the internet about sex and reproduction, or know how to get free condoms (free at a lot of places and not expensive anyway) they then are bridges for sale and I'm not the one buying.

NO ONE is prevented from accessing birth control in this country.

IF you insist on someone else paying for it, you might run into a road block.

If you want birth control or information handed to you on a silver platter at the time, place and circumstances of your choosing for free, you might run into a roadblock.

Typical liberalism.

Crying about denial of access when there is no denial.


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Ziemia(6a)

Easy access to quality education - something some TrumpFans wish to curtail.

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judeNY_gw

Stan is dug in so deep there is no coming out to learn anything about anything. SOP.

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Stan Areted

Stan is dug in so deep there is no coming out to learn anything about anything. SOP.


Back atcha! :)

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margaritadina

''

According to self-identified “pro-life” advocates, the fundamental
divide between those who want to outlaw abortion and those who want to
keep it legal comes down to one question:

when does life begin?

''

Life begins with a heartbeat - abortion is acceptable to up to 8 weeks term. Once a infant is born and able to live - no abortion after birth, if a bio rejects him/her, an infant should be put up for adoption.

Gross fetus abnormalities, mother's life threatening conditions should be out of the scope of any abortion related discussion.


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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Crying about denial of access when there is no denial.

One can only act upon what one knows, and too many conservatives are trying too hard to deny s-x education in the schools.

If we don't act for the common good, we all suffer. Let those who object to s-x education and birth control -- including free condoms --- excuse themselves from participating. But DO NOT impede those who have need of those items, and let the others make informed decisions.

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Stan Areted

Exactly where are people being impeded from learning about reproduction?

Information is free these days, has been quite some time.

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margaritadina

''

gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Abortion kills babies in the womb and hurts women. It is false feminism. [bolding mine]


Not backed up by the facts, and definitely not your call to make for someone else.

''

Actually, it's backed up by medical science facts. Abortion grossly interrupts hormonal changes that occur during the pregnancy. But women recover just fine and in a short period of time. The earlier in to term abortion is done, the easier is recovery.

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margaritadina

''

Stan Areted

I think abortion is pure feminism--love of self over children.

In most cases.

''

Respectfully disagree. Animals kill their off springs when they are unable to provide for them and when they are threatened by great danger.

Human animals are no different, social issues of the modern society are translated on to inability to provide and placing children into danger.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

And what about allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for birth control and emergency contraception, and allow pharmacies to not to even carry such things?


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/can-pharmacist-legally-deny-patient-prescription-it-depends-n894871

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/01/18/578811426/trump-will-protect-health-workers-who-reject-patients-on-religious-grounds

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Actually, it's backed up by medical science facts. Abortion grossly interrupts hormonal changes that occur during the pregnancy. But women recover just fine and in a short period of time. The earlier in to term abortion is done, the easier is recovery.

Staying pregnant and giving birth hurts a woman's hormonal and physical well being to a much greater degree, and sometimes long term or permanently. Your argument of a temporary hormonal change 'hurting a woman' is laughable in comparison. And it is not your decision to make.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Denying access to scientific and medically correct information on s-x, reproduction, and contraception harms us all.


How does a young teen even know where to turn to accurate information?


Given the amount of nonsense we see at HT on any number of subjects, accurate information is indeed hard to come by.


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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I absolutely do not want my teens accessing information about sex on the internet.

I want someone knowledgeable in the most recent facts who is trained to teach teens to impart that information in the most boring, clinical, and unintriguing way possible.

And I want to convey to them my values and expectations, and any wisdom I have gleaned over the years.

No google, please.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Birth Control. What is behind the opposition to BC by fundy groups is the belief that most forms of birth control cause abortions. If you believe that life begins when egg and sperms(it takes more than one) meet then anything that gets between that zygote and implantation in a ready uterus is abortion, or if you are Catholic anything that comes between egg and sperm meeting is abortion or something like. The fact that normal life does the same thing is beside the point and there is no point in my pointing that out. That is the problem Stan. Add to that the desire that our young should be as ignorant as possible of how babies get made and you have the perfect storm. Apparently if you know how babies are made you are going to make babies, all evidence to the contrary being ignored. Hoodoo.

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margaritadina

''

gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Actually,
it's backed up by medical science facts. Abortion grossly interrupts
hormonal changes that occur during the pregnancy. But women recover just
fine and in a short period of time. The earlier in to term abortion is
done, the easier is recovery.

Staying pregnant and giving birth hurts a woman's hormonal and
physical well being to a much greater degree, and sometimes long term or
permanently. Your argument of a temporary hormonal change 'hurting a
woman' is laughable in comparison. And it is not your decision to make.

''

Reading comprehension?

I am not making any decisions for anyone. I am pro-choice. But medical facts are medical facts, abortion is not a harmless procedure - actually, surgery.



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Camille

"Stan is dug in so deep there is no coming out to learn anything about anything. SOP."


She certainly is.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Many women still die in pregnancy/delivery, or soon after. There has been much reporting on the sad statistics here in the US lately.

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Kitchenwitch111

Life begins with a heartbeat

Life begins with breath.

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elvis

Tell that to the mother who feels her baby kicking.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

The Bible doesn't agree with you, Elvis.

Genesis 2:7

"Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person. "

Kate

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Camille

RW'ers who want to force their values on others, should realize that just the fact that they support trump tells the world that they have no moral values.


No problem with supporting a man who wanted to abort his own daughter, and according to this article paid for a least one abortion for a girlfriend.


https://friedmanoftheplains.com/donald-trump-admits-to-paying-for-abortion-1c4ae9832770


Many women, (and partners) find themselves in a situation of an unplanned pregnancy and choose abortion. It is legal and their reasons are their own and no one should judge, especially a trump supporter.

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HU9999

Denying that some are trying to restrict access to birth control is just not facing reality. It's sticking one's head in the sand and pretending it's not happening. The fear that one might spend a penny of their own money to help a poor woman obtain birth control fuels the denial.

No matter how many capitalized words one uses, it still doesn't make it true.

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JodiK

What is it they say about opinions?

And what does current Supreme court law state?

Yeah... thought so.

My body, my choice!

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

As usual, GOP & its supporters have their hearts set on taking away rights from US citizens - going backwards, IOW.

Can anyone share a time that has been successfully accomplished?

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elvis

dublinbay z6 (KS)

The Bible doesn't agree with you, Elvis.

How could the Bible "agree" with anyone?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

"Life begins with a heartbeat - abortion is acceptable to up to 8 weeks term. Once a infant is born and able to live - no abortion after birth, if a bio rejects him/her, an infant should be put up for adoption. Gross fetus abnormalities, mother's life threatening conditions should be out of the scope of any abortion related discussion."

"Reading comprehension? I am not making any decisions for anyone. I am pro-choice."


You say you are pro-choice and not making decisions for anyone, but I see plenty of restrictions you support about when, and why, in your previous post. So yes, it sure sounds as if you want to interfere with my decisions.

As for my other post, it was directed towards a now deleted post, that had a different user name attached. Maybe you are one and the same, I don't know. I am not going to spend time with that shell game.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, many abortions involve no invasive procedures, IOW are not surgery.

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elvis

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, many abortions involve no invasive procedures, IOW are not surgery.

The ones where medication does the trick, yes. The basic "suck it out" procedure is surgery.

Surgical Abortion (First Trimester)

Surgical abortion, also known as suction aspiration abortion, can be performed in a one-day procedure if less than 14 weeks have passed since the first day of your last menstrual period. The procedure is done in the doctor's office with local anesthesia and oral pain-relieving medications.

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/treatments/surgical_abortion_first_trimester/

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Ziemia(6a)

Someone sure found a way to insert drama here. Would've been harder to indicate the factors that lead to that procedure. Included the laws that deliberately build in medically unnecessary delays.

So, take on the easy route to bring in one specific procedure while ignoring all the others.

Sure would be a kindness to prevent more of these harsher methods - which is very possible.

So....

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Sometimes I suspect people fancy they are being shocking...

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margaritadina

''

gyr_falcon(Sunset



You say you are pro-choice and not making decisions for anyone,
but I see plenty of restrictions you support about when, and why, in
your previous post. So yes, it sure sounds as if you want to interfere
with my decisions.

''

I don't try to interfere with your decisions. I express my opinion taking into consideration both, a woman and a fetus since there is more then one living organism involved.

''Routine'' abortion of an unwanted up to 8 weeks old fetus is fine with me.

After 8 weeks - think twice. Abortion must not be Dr Mengele's style vivisection. It's well known medical fact that with detectable heartbeat fetus feel pain. How would you like feeling your arms and legs been cut off? That's my point - think twice.

In a life threatening situations abortion is performed under general anesthesia, even after three months into pregnancy a fetus doesn't feel a thing. And a woman's life should be saved no matter what, even if it does. It's a tragic situation and both are victims.

''Changing mind'' on a healthy already moving fetus is terrible and unacceptable to me.

And I am absolutely against abortion after birth. It's fascism. Hitler got rid of mentally ill. physically deformed and amputees. No, not in concentration camps, his own Germans. Very, very slippery slope.



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margaritadina

''

dublinbay z6 (KS)

The Bible doesn't agree with you, Elvis.

Genesis 2:7

"Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person. "

Kate

''

That's great. The law disagrees a little with the above. One can go to jail for doing funny things with a dead body. Just saying.

Or, and the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

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Linda

Pro-Life = women barefoot, minimally educated and in the kitchen. Wonder what position they'd take on the matter if men bore the children.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Elvis--you are such a literalist when it comes to language. I was being sarcastic when I said the Bible disagrees with you. I was making a point about your presumptuousness in setting "your words" over of the language in the Bible.

margarit--I'm not sure what point you are making. My point is that the Bible does not designate the heartbeat as the moment when the fetus is recognized as "a living person." It clearly states (and one does not have to be the devil to observe it) that "living person" status happens when the fetus is capable of breathing on its own. That in fact fits well with the medical language of Roe v Wade--what it means by "viability"--a fetus capable of normal breathing on its own, which is what happens at birth if the fetus has developed normally. It also accords with the legal language of Roe v Wade in that civil "personhood" is not recognized by law until the fetus is born (breathing normally on its own).

It's not often, margarit, that I get called "the devil." Doesn't that count as a gross violation of the forum's name-calling rule? I think you owe me a big apology.

Kate

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artemis_ma

Not sure if this is a new thread (and the old one went bye-bye) or if my old post automagically disappeared.


So anyhow since I put a lot of effort into what I wrote earlier, I saved it: Still relevant to think upon.


Without reading all the posts here, I'll note there seem to be two distinct "arms" of the pro-life movement. One is indeed bathed in misogyny.

The other "arm" is pro-life - both for healthy fetuses to be born, and, also at the other end of a typical lifespan, pretty much against the death penalty as well.

This arm had at least some of its roots in the Quaker movement. A couple years ago I visited the Susan B. Anthony birthplace home, in western Massachusetts (she was moved by family to New York when she was aged six). She went on to be active in four different, yet tied-together, causes:

She was active in the temperance movement, the abolition of slavery, the opposition to abortion, and of course the women’s suffrage (right to vote) movement. Unfortunately, she died in 1906, before the Constitutional amendment granting us women the right to carry out the civic duty of voting was granted.

I know in some South American countries it is illegal to abort ectopic pregnancies - since the fetus is by no means viable, this is a true example of misogyny.

I also know there's a large amount of hypocrisy going on with supposedly-pro-life legislators - who will quietly arrange with enough privacy for their own daughters or mistresses to get abortions. BUT if it's another woman they don't know??? Politics wins.

I'm also concerned that many in a supposed "pro-life" stance have zero concern about the infant once it is born. Caring about well-being is something that should at least be available until the kid is old enough (age of majority?) to make decisions for him or her self. You know, where they can reasonably be expected to stand or fall on their own life-choices.

Also, often the current pro-life ambiance doesn't always consider the sort of thing where a mother's health or life is in danger. Let the putative mother decide!


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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

The original is still visible for me artemis (Friday @ 3:46am). I remembered reading it, I believe yesterday. I don't like for people to feel bad about disappearing threads if they really haven't; the 'disappeared ones' happen often enough to be disappointing as it is.

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margaritadina

''

dublinbay z6 (KS)

margarit--I'm not sure what point you are making. My point is that
the Bible does not designate the heartbeat as the moment when the fetus
is recognized as "a living person." It clearly states (and one does not
have to be the devil to observe it) that "living person" status happens
when the fetus is capable of breathing on its own. That in fact fits
well with the medical language of Roe v Wade--what it means by
"viability"--a fetus capable of normal breathing on its own, which is
what happens at birth if the fetus has developed normally. It also
accords with the legal language of Roe v Wade in that civil "personhood"
is not recognized by law until the fetus is born (breathing normally on
its own).

It's not often, margarit, that I get called "the devil." Doesn't
that count as a gross violation of the forum's name-calling rule? I
think you owe me a big apology.

Kate

''

I didn't call you a devil.

"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" means even good things can be twisted to achieve not so good goals.

Fetus is not a person.

Fetus is not a baby.

But fetus can feel pain after heartbeat is detected.

Are you for the late term abortion of a healthy fetus when a woman changes her mind to give birth? For abortion after birth? Fine. But don't use the Bible to back up your beliefs. I am an agnostic but I am sure that the Bible doesn't teach that.



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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

False premise.

Nobody decides to have an abortion on a whim. Nobody.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I sincerely doubt that any doctor would perform a late-stage abortion on a healthy fetus, and with the woman‘s life in no danger.


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patriciae_gw(07)

Heart beat, and the so called heart beat of an early fetus is not actually a beating heart since most of the heart to be has not yet formed, and the ability to feel pain are not connected. In order to feel pain you have to have neural connections and the developing parts of the brain working together and the experience of what a sensation means. It is unclear at this point when babies feel pain but it is thought to be fairly late in the process. Babies can be born prematurely and kept alive before they can feel pain. It has to do with when the connections are created.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Indeed, Nancy - and the fact that in a number of states, there is often only 1 doctor who performs such a procedure also makes it unlikely to be any kind of reality.

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ubro(2a)

Are you for the late term abortion of a healthy fetus when a woman changes her mind to give birth? For abortion after birth? Fine. But don't use the Bible to back up your beliefs. I am an agnostic but I am sure that the Bible doesn't teach that.

Honest to goodness and for pete sake, abortion of a healthy child after birth is not a real thing. However, not interfering with a child born with terminal conditions is the call of the doctor and parents, and I doubt if it is taken lightly. IMO is not any different than the difficult choice of "pulling the plug" on a loved one of any age.

Spouting this type of rhetoric is meant to inflame and to give false impressions of the pro choice movement.

Posters can use the Bible in anyway they choose, to support or disprove opinions posted. If the religious use it to prop up their opinions, others can use it to refute them. Tit for tat.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose" means even good things can be twisted to achieve not so good goals.


We know that, margarit.

And who was the only "devil" (figuratively speaking) citing scripture immediately before your remark? No connection meant by you? I doubt if most of us believe that.

My point was that it is not kicking, or heartbeat, or feeling pain that determine fetal viability. It is the ability to breathe--which does not happen until sometime around 24 or later weeks.

Late term abortion of a healthy fetus because the woman changed her mind about giving birth????

What utter nonsense! Show me one case where that happened--other than in the morbid imagination of a rabid anti-choicer.

Abortion after a fetus is born???? Huh? What the heck is that? Are you talking about infanticide? That is against the law. Abortion, with some restrictions, is legal. I think you have your terms very confused!

Kate

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judeNY_gw

What utter nonsense!


Perfect description of that entire bizarre argument. That's a few wasted minutes of my life I'll never get back. I usually know better than to read posts by the usual nonsense spouters.

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elvis

If the religious use it to prop up their opinions, others can use it to refute them.

True. Kate used religion to prop up her opinion, Margaritadina used kate's Bible reference to refute kate's opinion. Fair enough.

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HU-219136540

“Abortion after birth”?

WTH are you talking about? There is no such thing as abortion after birth.

So ridiculous..

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batyabeth

you did it for me, HU. "Abortion after birth"? Oh my goodness, where do they come up with this pseudo-rhetoric?

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Ziemia(6a)

And the right makes up stories and "facts" to suit their need.

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HU9999

Abortion after birth? Is this the latest made up nonsense from the pro-forced-birth crowd? Will we see more of this?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

" Kate used religion to prop up her opinion, Margaritadina used kate's Bible reference to refute kate's opinion. "


I think history was just made here. The anti-choicers have now rejected the Bible as the ultimate authority on moral/social issues. No need to pay attention to what it says any more! That will come as quite a shock to many an anti-choicer.

Or maybe we are witnessing a major schism in the anti-choice movement--between those who oppose abortion on religious grounds (which has been the majority push behind the opposition) and those who oppose relying on religious ideas to motivate their opposition to abortion.

At any rate, some anti-choice readers on HT have evidently mistakenly believed I "used religion to prop up [my] opinion." Seems like they have missed the sarcasm again. I cited the Bible to refute their anti-choice argument by showing them that THEIR ultimate authority rejects the position they are arguing for here.

But I also got a bit of a kick out of THEIR source, rejected by them, agreeing in effect with my secular/humanist position, I admit it. : )


Kate

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ubro(2a)

And I am absolutely against abortion after birth. It's fascism.

Again, not possible after birth if the baby does not have the ability to live, it is called "pulling the plug" not abortion.

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cupofkindnessgw

“Abortion” after birth happens when the baby survives the barbaric attempt on its life, is delivered from the birth canal, breathes on its own but then is murdered by the doctor or nurse though now legally a person. Infanticide is the proper term.

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Ziemia(6a)

Any verified stats for the number of those "abortions after birth"?

Without that, the argument relating to its occurrence is meaningless.

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palisades_

The Bible doesn't agree with you, Elvis.

Speaking of the Bible,

“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.” — Matthew 15:19 (NIV)

And “Thou shalt not kill”

Who would say otherwise?


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Ziemia(6a)

Refusing to vaccinate detained children?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Since I know of no pro-choice activist group that supports infanticide, I was curious what these "abortion after birth" references were all about.

It turns out--although there is a real ethical debate going on in some philosophical/professional circles, most of this fuss stems back to some blather Trump engaged in not too long ago at a rally. He called it "abortion after birth."

I did a fact check on it. The results aren't quite what anti-choicers make it sound like.

From a couple months ago--

------------------------------

"Trump fact check: Babies executed after failed abortions. He's oversimplifying, AP finds


President Donald Trump, in what’s become a staple of his rallies, accuses doctors of executing babies who are born alive after a failed abortion attempt.

His comments, meant to taint Democrats, have been embraced by many abortion opponents and assailed as maliciously false by many medical professionals. What’s clear is that he is oversimplifying a deeply complex issue.

It’s already a crime to kill babies, but not necessarily a crime to forgo sophisticated medical intervention in cases where severe fetal abnormalities leave a newborn with no chance of survival.

A look at his rhetoric, similarly framed from one event to the next, and the reality behind it:

TRUMP: “Democrats are aggressively pushing late-term abortion allowing children to be ripped from their mother’s womb, right up until the moment of birth. The baby is born and you wrap the baby beautifully and you talk to the mother about the possible execution of the baby.” – rally in Panama City Beach, Florida, on Wednesday.

THE FACTS: Federal data suggests that very few U.S. babies are born alive as a result of a failed abortion. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recorded 143 deaths between 2003 and 2014 involving infants born alive during attempted abortions.

Politicians and activists against abortion have been pushing for state and federal legislation this year that would impose criminal penalties on doctors who fail to give medical care to babies born alive after a failed abortion.

Organizations representing obstetricians and gynecologists say existing laws already provide protections to every healthy newborn, whether born during a failed abortion or under other circumstances.

“We would never do anything to actively hasten the passing of the infant,” said Dr. Cara Heuser, a maternal fetal medicine specialist in Salt Lake City.

She and other physicians say the rhetoric coming from Trump and abortion opponents fails to reflect the wrenching circumstances underlying most abortions performed late in a pregnancy.

According to the CDC, only 1.3% of abortions take place after 21 weeks, and these often involve either severe fetal anomalies or conditions that endanger the mother.

When anomalies are so severe that a newborn would die soon after birth, a family may choose what’s known as palliative care or comfort care. This might involve swaddling the newborn in a blanket and allowing the baby to die naturally without medical intervention.

“The medical standard is to give hospice type care, not futile medical interventions, when the baby has a terminal diagnosis with no chance of surviving,” said Dr. Diane Horvath, a Baltimore-based obstetrician-gynecologist. “This is a deeply personal decision, and it allows families to follow their own beliefs and faith traditions.”

[. . .]

“The baby is not ignored – comfort care includes things like food, oxygen, pain medication and skin-to-skin contact,” she said. “Everyone’s goal is to make the newborn as comfortable as possible, respect the time the family has with their child, and avoid interventions that would cause additional suffering without changing the outcome.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/05/13/trump-executing-babies-after-failed-abortion-fact-check-ap/1186702001/

-----------------------------------

Sounds a little different when we hear all the facts and circumstances, doesn't it. As usual.

Kate

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ubro(2a)

“Abortion” after birth happens when the baby survives the barbaric attempt on its life, is delivered from the birth canal, breathes on its own but then is murdered by the doctor or nurse though now legally a person. Infanticide is the proper term.

Bahahahah I cannot take this comment seriously.

Right, now doctors, evil being they are, murder breathing babies, my sarcasm cannot fully reflect my opinion on this.


“The baby is not ignored – comfort care includes things like food, oxygen, pain medication and skin-to-skin contact,” she said. “Everyone’s goal is to make the newborn as comfortable as possible, respect the time the family has with their child, and avoid interventions that would cause additional suffering without changing the outcome

This bears repeating.

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Ziemia(6a)

Words thoughtlessly said and then repeated to create the drama necessary to feed the anti-choice forced-birthers.

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cupofkindnessgw



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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

How was he convicted if the laws protecting children born alive after attempted abortion didn’t exist?

And if they do exist, and can be enforced, what is the good of recreating them?

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HU9999

most of this fuss stems back to some blather Trump engaged in not too long ago at a rally. He called it "abortion after birth."

Thanks, Kate. Looks like I was right when I asked if this was the latest made up nonsense. Trump makes it up and his supporters repeat it. Once again, facts don't matter.

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Ziemia(6a)

Gosnell is a self-serving terrible person.

Monster.

He did not get away with infanticide, did he?

He did not get away with "abortion after birth" did he?

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Ziemia(6a)

"In 2011, Gosnell and various co-defendant employees were charged with eight counts of murder, 24 felony counts of performing illegal abortions beyond the state of Pennsylvania's 24-week time limit..."

"In May 2013, Gosnell was convicted of first degree murder in the deaths of three of the infants and involuntary manslaughter in the death of Karnamaya Mongar. Gosnell was also convicted of 21 felony counts of illegal late-term abortion ..."

Wikioedia

Next?

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cupofkindnessgw

Abortion is infanticide.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Not according to U.S. law.

Kate

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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

So, because it is law it is ok? Like when slavery was legal? Oh, that's right., the

Dems fought the Christians on that issue, as well.


"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

-Jer. 1:5

tj

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dandyfopp

Yes and then I locked thee up in a cage for crossing a border.

Give it up guys. The mask is off.

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Ziemia(6a)

Yes and then I allowed thee to starve or thrive. Whatever.

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Ziemia(6a)

Yes, they have nothing hence changing the definition.

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cupofkindnessgw

Abortion murders children.

And that’s what their parents want, a dead child. The parents are murderers and this changes their own soul for the worse. They pay someone to torture and dismember their child, and for some women, the aborted children might be the only ones they ever have.

in our society we are entirely surrounded by men and women who murdered their own children.

How will they ever have peace?

Some choices are justwrong.

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xiangirl zone 4/5 Nebraska(5)

Pray their hearts are supernaturally touched. Words bounce off their walled up hearts. Many arguers have experienced an abortion so coming to terms with that and finding healing is what they need, but they can't see it. Using words to hurt those defending life releases some of their pent up anger at themselves. I can't imagine trying to live knowing I killed my own child. Hopefully some day they'll reunite in heaven. We.dont judge salvation...God does. There's hope they'll see the light. pray for changed hearts because that's the only way real change can happen.

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Ziemia(6a)

And the forced-birthers keep proving this thread's title is true.

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cupofkindnessgw

Ziemia

View the movie “Unplanned” about the life of Abby Johnson who ran a large abortion clinic in Texas and had two abortions herself. Abby actually won awards from her employer Planned Parenthood for surpassing the # of abortions her clinic was expected to perform. She was never ever pro life until she had to hold the ultra sound device on the mother’s tummy while the doctor aborted the baby, who in the womb was trying to flee the suction device that ultimately tore it apart. Watch this movie, it has an important message that no true feminist should ignore.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unplanned

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maifleur01

I see the fringe is out in full force this morning. Wondering what site pointed them to this one as there have been so few of those religious strange posts for a while.

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cupofkindnessgw

I’ve been on the Gardenweb for nearly 15 years. My posts aren’t strange. No one disputes that abortion takes a life, that argument is passé. Its all about choice, the choice to murder someone who is completely powerless to stop you. Your assumption is groundless.


Most Americans are pro-life so of course their are pro life people on these forums. We aren’t the fringe just because we state views that don’t agree with yours. You don’t own this thread anymore than I do. Your lack of tolerance is obvious.

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dandyfopp

They show up with bleeding hearts if the topic becomes abortion, as if a bell was rung-- but are no where to be found when it comes to warehousing children.


Pro life as we see on this forum ad nauseam is a very small window of time, the drive is forcing a girl or a woman to give birth, no matter what.


What happens to that girl or woman and the baby after the birth is not a concern.

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Ziemia(6a)

Not true: "No one disputes that abortion takes a life"

Not true: "Most Americans are pro-life"

And no consideration given to women having a choice without demeaning them.

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cupofkindnessgw

You know nothing of what pro lifers do for these women and their babies. And your bitter attitude shows that you don’t even care. I’m sorry that you suffer in this regard. You can do far more than rant and rage against people who do good to make life better for these women and girls, and their babies. You can help them, the need more than an quick and dirty abortion to lead the lives they dream of. Help them.

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Ziemia(6a)

See? You are working to diminish me as a person.

You are free to form your views and work on causes that move you. Yet you want to curtail me and declare me as bitter. And you appear as someone who knows better than a woman who disagrees with you.

Life is complicated and hence we have laws.


PS: I do know what some forced-birth people do as they keep sharing that.

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cupofkindnessgw

What in the world does forced-birth mean?

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maifleur01

I often wonder how much actual help the pro-birth people give to those who are unfortunate to turn to them. Most of the articles I have read only mention supplying stuff for a month if that much. For those stating that they give so much help please state how much, how long, and how many women have been helped.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion on abortion, but what is not entitled is imposing your own beliefs, by law, on anyone else.

As the Supreme Court noted in Roe v Wade, they could find no agreement even among religious groups on abortion. Therefore, they concluded, they would leave the choice up to the woman and her own conscience on the matter. That is her constitutional right to reproductive freedom.

Believe as you want--but keep your laws off of women's bodies.

Couple times a year (for years now) , the anti-choicers want to go back and argue the same arguments over and over again. Gets rather boring, if you want to know the truth. But it is strange that they rarely, if never, start an anti-choice thread on their own, but as maifleur pointed out, suddenly pop up on the screen when someone else starts an abortion thread.

As maifleur said, "Wondering what site pointed them to this one as there have been so few of those religious strange posts for a while." Wouldn't be asking if the anti-choicers were regular contributors. Just wondering about people who claim they have silently read HT for a decade or so, but never bothered to post anything before now, much less on abortion. Does someone send out an "alert" or something when an abortion thread gets posted? Just wondering.

Kate

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elvis

Wondering what site pointed them to this one

Okay, I'll bite. I was looking for information on Wisconsin Act 10 back in 2010. I had been on Gardenweb since 2001, but not Hot Topics. A search for info landed me here, and silly me, I thought it was a bona fide discussion group until a poster bit my head off for saying I voted for Scott Walker the first time he ran for governor. I was instantly branded as a rotten conservative. The rest is history. How did you come to be at HT?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Quit changing the subject, Elvis. I was asking about the recycled arguments that have been going on for years, but each time a new poster shows up--so fortuitously. It is the "fortuitous" aspect that I was wondering about.

Kate

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HU9999

Everyone found this site by one means or another. Duh.

Some stay and some don't.

There are 2 topics that bring out new posters - abortion and guns.

When those posters never post on any other threads, and have never posted before, it's logical to wonder how they are alerted to the threads. Deflecting from the facts doesn't change them.

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palisades_

about the recycled arguments that have been going on for years...

The recycled arguments from the pro abortionists have been the same no matter how many times they are disproved with science, facts and common sense. There is not much left for more arguments.

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HU9999

SCOTUS is the ultimate decider of the law. The woman is the ultimate decider of what she does with her body. End of story.

When you have some real science, please do let us know. Haven't seen any yet from a single pro-forced-birther.

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ubro(2a)

What in the world does forced-birth mean?

It means those women who have to deal with obstacles put in place by governments that make it hard for them to obtain an abortion or will not be given the choice to abort due to current laws.

These can include underage girls, rape victims, or any women who does not wish to have a child or cannot have a child due to medical circumstances. Correct me if I am wrong but 'forced-birth' laws have already been implemented in a couple of states.

You know nothing of what pro lifers do for these women and their babies. And your bitter attitude shows that you don’t even care.

insulting another poster is not allowed.


You can do far more than rant and rage against people who do good to make life better for these women and girls, and their babies. You can help them, the need more than an quick and dirty abortion to lead the lives they dream of. Help them.

And the pro lifers could do more than shame and insult those women who exercise their right to choose, as well as those women who support them.

How about you help these women by supporting their choice to live the life they dream instead of forcing them to accept yours.

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judeNY_gw

No one is pro abortion. We are pro choice.

But you forced birthers are determined to dictate and oppress everyone to conform with your personal beliefs. Your personal beliefs are not facts and are offensive to many others. Not a good look for you.

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tsugajunkie z5 SE WI ♱

Yes, just like secular humanists have been forcing their religion on society for decades. No God, no prayer, no moral absolutes, parents are fools-all part of the dogma of their hero John Dewey, a Fabian Socialist (Communist, really). The sad consequence is without those respects for authority there is no respect for political authority either, but that is the desired effect, isn't it? Through friction will come their desired change. What better way than to call evil good and good evil.

tj

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ubro(2a)

Yes, just like secular humanists have been forcing their religion on society for decades. No God, no prayer, no moral absolutes, parents are fools-all part of the dogma of their hero John Dewey, a Fabian Socialist (Communist, really). The sad consequence is without those respects for authority there is no respect for political authority either, but that is the desired effect, isn't it?


What? you do not need religion to learn respect or morals,

Political authority needs to earn respect they are your employees not your master. If they get disrespect maybe you should entertain the thought that possibly, it is earned?


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

A fan of Authoritarianism...?

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Ziemia(6a)

Wow - the religion of secular humanists

Now, that's a throw back.

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whynottryit

Abortion is just the tip of the iceberg. Though I was debilitated a week out of every month for years and had 3 children, I was denied a hysterectomy because I was not 40 years old by male doctors who thought they knew more about me, my needs and my body than I did. Twenty plus years later, after 4 pregnancies and being told she would die if she got pregnant again, my daughter was denied a tubal ligation. Do Not take away my choice. Doctor or legislator, it is my decision. I am a woman, not an idiot.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Apples and oranges!

No secular humanists/non-religious folks have passed LAWS making it CRIMINAL for religious believers to practice their religious beliefs.

But many Christian anti-choicers/pro-birthers repeatedly try to pass LAWS CRIMINALIZING the reproductive choices a woman makes in connection with her own body and conscience.

Kate

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batyabeth

keep saying it Kate. Again and loud.

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