I used the NPS because it's a government site like DOE. Your selling windows, with energy savings as your hook. I started and ran three sales organizations, so I know sales very well.

https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/design/windows-doors-and-skylights/update-or-replace-windows

The arguments can be made both ways, The data is there ,To be objective look at there data , how they tested, what they actually tested, how it compares to the real world. Both sides use numbers to benefit them .

Ken, not selling anything here, just answering questions and trying to shed some light on information that was misrepresented, as well as the conclusions drawn from it.

I'd agree that energy savings are indeed the "hook" in the conversation about replacing windows, just as they would be for the guy selling storm windows and weatherstripping, or attic insulation. The key of course is presenting accurate facts and data, and its unfortunate when that is not done.

We could have this back and forth forever it would appear. Here's another resource that I use. Others that are deciding to replace or not replace their windows will have to do their own DD.

https://www.oldhouseguy.com/window-replacements/ I wish you well.

There is no back and forth Ken. You've misrepresented the information from the NPS site. Instead of providing anything factual or up to date in response, you simply accused me of trying to sell windows. Now it appears as though you are posting a link to a site that you created (?), at least based on the name and taking points it would appear that way? "Back and forth" requires both sides to make valid points and I have not disagreed with any of yours that are valid, only pointed out those that unarguably are not.

You also failed to respond to the fact that I've acknowledged that in some cases it is certainly wiser to restore and/or recondition windows instead of replacing them, whether it be due to the age or historical nature of the home, or due to the ROI depending on the condition of the current windows. I agree, homeowners should do their due diligence when making this decision, and I hope that they find accurate sources of information in the process. I wouldn't recommend trusting an unscrupulous window salesman with fuzzy math or incomplete data, nor would I recommend trusting an "old house guy" with the same.

Thank you for the well wishes, I hope the same for you. I think that we can probably also both wish for the sleazier component of the window sales industry to continue its decline into obscurity, and with it the need by others to overcompensate by offering information that is equally suspect.

I misrepresented nothing. I simply pointed out you can keep your old windows which will last forever if cared for properly. They are energy efficient as my current home represents, as well as the other two I have owned represent. Windows are part of the historic fabric of the home not just to stop out drafts and convection. Here is an 1830 colonial with replacement windows a picture from this site. Then my former house an 1809 colonial with 12/12 sash which I used interior storm windows to create a dead airspace and stop drafts. I think the replacements used on the 1830 colonial are shameful. Perhaps not representative of all replacements, but this is what I see more often than not.

interior storms blow. Take a pic if the inside and show us that glorious view.

They are as efficient as my home represents?

The article referenced above as a source is written by a person named "Ken". Is that just happenstance?

Seeing as we are talking about restoration, can you provide some information on what a restoration might run in an average case? Figure on the specs being about as follows:

1. Wood window (obviously)
2. Metal jamb liners
3. Lead positive
4. Muntins
5. Storm window that is barely functional (could be adjusted or replaced)

Scope of work would be:

1. Remove, replace, or tune up storm window
2. Remove existing sashes
3. Strip lead paint (at shop)
4. Replace jamb liners
5. Re-glaze window
6. Install new hardware
7. Paint window
8. Re-install window sashes

Thanks. I ask because that question is posed on here quite a bit and it would be helpful for folks to know what they might need to budget on.

Ken, please acknowledge that you misrepresented information. You stated 10% heat loss through windows, but your source is only regarding air infiltration, which is a fraction of the total heat loss through windows as discussed. This is fact. I trust that this was an honest oversight, but one should at least acknowledge that in the face of indisputable evidence to maintain credibility. If that "old house guy" site is yours, and that is the source of the same information which is posted there (and has been apparently for 5 years) that is regrettable. As much as you would like people to restore their existing windows, I can only assume that your intention in putting that site up as well as posting here is to offer genuine and accurate advice. I'd hope that you would consider updating that as well as other information on that site to provide facts that are correct and up to date. Not for the sake of appeasing window salesmen of course, but for the sake of your own integrity, in not promoting inaccurate info as a means to an end.

Once again Ken, I agree that some homes are great candidates for restoration, and anyone with a home such as those pictured should look at their options in great depth. One need not manipulate or misrepresent information to make that case, (and yes I realize that window salesmen do that often). I do think that the one home pictured is a poor representative of replacement windows, and agree that its hideous. As an aside, there is a century old farmhouse near my home that was all original but in disrepair. A new owner gutted it, replaced all of the windows with stock sized (significantly smaller) casement windows off the shelf from a box store, installed a front door with sidelites, and added vinyl siding. I puke in my mouth a little bit every time I drive past....

My point is that if you are open to the perspective of others you'll likely find that there is more common ground than thought.

interior storms blow. Take a pic if the inside and show us that glorious view.

Those horrible interior storms.

Looks good from 20 Feet, but so does 3m film.

you have to pull those to open your windows?

you have storms on the outside as well?

If you run storms on outside and the inside you might be approaching performance levels of a cheap vinyl.

we have Milgard vinyl windows, possibly installed about 8-10 years ago. about 1/3 of them are failing (hazy looking). some of the vinyl is warped or cracked, and all of them scream PLASTIC. ugh.

Any chance we can get something that is a tiny bit closer? I can't see anything from that view.

Can you answer my post above about restoration? We don't do much in the way of historic stuff, but I would like to be able to point folks in the right direction so that they can be informed and aware of their options.

I have already sent your website out a few times.

What vinyl window do you have? Anything from 8-10 years should have a seal failure warranty.

Vinyl is not unlike any building material out there. There are good ones, and bad ones.

Much of what we replace in homes now is failing wood windows. Does that mean that all wood windows are garbage...clearly not. Those wood windows in Ken's pictures are probably 100 years old, or older.

The web address I sent is not my site. Should people want to look into window restoration/preservation the old house guy is one site. thehistoricdistric.org is another. I am a member of this site, some people are professionals, others are just homeowners. We share information freely, all of us are enthusiastic able preservation. Another place is http://historichomeworks.com/save-maines-windows/ John Leeke's site. I am a former historical society president and longtime historic homeowner and restorer. Everyone needs a hobby and a purpose, this is mine has been saving a few old places for future generations. They represent over 10,000 hours of my work plus north of a $1,000,000 in investment starting at 24 years old.

I understand that a new window may have a higher window performance than a 1840 9/6, but these windows are still in service and will be 100 years from now. How many sets of the replacements will have gone into the landfill by then. Windows made from old growth wood like these will last forever if cared for properly.

The two houses that we owned with interior storms. We only opened the windows we would add screens too seasonally, otherwise they stayed in place all year. I had many friends that used them in their houses.

Ken,

Seeing as you are much more connected and familiar with this stuff, do you have an idea on perspective customers might be spending per the specifications I listed above?

Were you the author on that article that you linked? Some good information in there.

Lastly, I don't know of anyone that has suggested yanking out some nice 100 year old old growth wood windows. If you read that thread (its long) about "Repair, not Replace" that was on here from years ago, you will see that folks were recommending just the opposite. Even the folks that you label as "selling replacement windows" were stressing the pros of keeping an older window like that vs. a newer replacement. Ultimately the decision is the homeowners (assuming they are not in a historic district), but I think the argument for keeping an older window (assuming it actually is historic and from a good wood) is significant. That said, the performance numbers are not equivalent and it should be noted that keeping that window comes at a decent expense as well.

You are right that they will never find that quality of wood or window again and that likely, no replacement will have that projected lifespan either. Material wise, the lineals of a composite would last as long, but the complexities of the of a replacement window (double pane, balances, components) will not last 100 years. The historic window benefits from the relative lack of complexity in its design when it comes to its lifespan.

I did not write the article I included. I understand no one here has suggested removing 100 year old windows at least not here. It happens all the time and houses in historic districts do it all the time. Sadly even members on some historic district commissions approve this. Many don't include windows as a piece of the historic fabric, so they removed freely. The town we used to live in is considered the some beautiful village in NH. We never owned a home in the district, but about half of the homes in the historic district now have replacement windows. Can the average person tell the difference probably not. One of the old sash sets I got from someone removing them had tall ships etched into the panes with a date of 1804. I think they even carved in initials if I remember right. I put that sash set in the big white barn shown in the photos.

At the large colonial I showed I moved a barn to this house from Albany NY and rebuilt it as the original barn had burned in 1949. Most would never know it wasn't original to the property. Using vintage sash with 7x9 panes made the building. We did the same with a barn we built at our 1840 cape home, although this was for the most part stick framed. We used part of the 1780 barn foundation to give the barn a vintage look. Trim and siding help make the look, but windows really complete the design in my opinion. All the windows I used had been removed from other homes around the town we lived in. There was an old house parts store I used buy some specific windows and doors from when working on restoration projects.

Whats does a restoration (existing windows in place) usually run to the specs listed above?

I don't understand what you mean exactly, but may this is what you are asking. Some windows I would get would require me salvaging glass from one sash to put into another. For the barns I fabricated window units in my shop then installed in the rough openings. I did it five years ago with our current carriage house which was an existing building. I do my work only for myself, so I don't have a dollar figure to attach to it. It probably took me two hours to fabricate a window unit and a couple hours to fix the sash on average for each unit. I did the barn at the colonial in 1991 and it looks as good as the day it went up.

He asked what the cost of rehabbing an old window would be with specifics.

I've never done a window rehab for pay. My work on windows and old homes has been for myself or as a volunteer. I learned to do the work I do since contractors that could do the work or the quality I wanted weren't available. Today, there are quite a number of restoration contractors, however, in more remote locations like where I live, they are scarce. NH has an agency called The Preservation Alliance, they have a list of recommended contractors. https://nhpreservation.org/directory I'm sure other states have a like agency. It's quite likely one of window restorers could give you are rough number with a phone call.

That always seems to be the answer. Baffling how one can find all of these other numbers(usually inaccurate) on cost and performance, list all these studies and references but have no idea about the cost of the one thing they are trying to promote.

Do you know how long it took you to one window? If you know that then perhaps what you exactly did to the window? Did you address the frame or the exterior casing? How much were materials? How much glass did you have to replace? Did you set up a containment for the lead? Did you set up negative air for the asbestos? Did you test or assume for those? How much were the storms? How many windows did you do ? How long was the total project? Why put storms on inside and not the out, or did you do both? making Window units in a couple of hours sounds amazing.

My family lives in Redmond WA (outside Seattle) in a home built in 1989. The home was built by a reputable builder, with a good amount of visible craftsmanship. We have wood windows throughout, however, a few are showing rot on the exterior as well as we are planning to remodel/enlarge our kitchen, which requires replacing the windows. We've spoken with a few contractors and they are saying wood windows aren't the best choice in our area. Thoughts and recommendations? We want to make the right choice, but also one that looks good with many of the windows we're keeping. Photo of existing we are replacing (natural wood), and ones we are keeping (painted).

Hi Todd,

I think I mentioned in one of my answers it took on average two hours to fix a sash. Yes, two hours max to build a window unit. It's four boards and a sill, how hard is that after building dozens of them. There is no asbestos in any windows I have restored. We had it on steam pipes in the old colonial, but had pros come and remove it. I reinsulated the pipes with fiberglass wraps supplied by a restoration company. Any lead paint went into the trash. I am always careful with dust and fumes with lead, but being safe isn't hard to do. I wish I could still buy lead paint that stuff lasted forever. I still use oil based paint in many applications. I use a 1912 stain formula for our bungalow, one gallon gloss oil based paint , 1/2 gallon clear kerosene and 1/2 gallon boiled linseed oil. A neighbor gave me the formula, it's been used on their house since 1898(when new). I do mostly my own work and all the window work, so I can't attach a dollar figure to it. I do it because I love doing it. I am antique collector, so I want an antique house to show off my collection, always have. I bought my 1911 schoolhouse at 22 an 1809 colonial at 24, then a 1840 cape at 33 and the current bungalow at 53. My wife says this is the last old house, she's lovely, patient woman. Enjoy the holiday today.

I would love to know what something like this costs for future clients. I have heard of some astronomically high numbers from clients where they opted for replacement because of the investment number comparison.

To the poster above, you need to figure out where the rot was coming from. If its because of condensation, you are going to need to address the sources of that. The reality is that wood does not do as well when a home is plagued by condensation, but that is not the fault of the window in many cases. Assuming that the windows are functioning, many condensation issues are a result of higher than tolerable humidity levels in the house and for the current exterior temperatures.

Ken, you failed to mention any details of what you did restoring your windows or any cost .2 hours is quite low.

2 hours is quite low for building a new unit but again the details are non existent.

It takes me roughly 3 Hours to remove an old window and to install an insert with setting up and cleaning up for lead. This is done without regard for saving or reusing things like the rope, parting stops or any weatherstripping . This is not counting extra time it would take if the exterior was going to be capped.

@windowsonwashington. We don't have any interior rot, it is all outside. It's in areas that are more exposed to the elements than others. ( We had some of this in our previous house in places as well )

After posting I spent a few hours reading different articles online. I was thinking maybe a product that was wood on the inside and fiberglass on the exterior would be good. Does that sound like a reasonable and longer lasting approach? If so, welcome feedback on brands I should evaluate. Happy Thanksgiving, I'm thankful for the Houzz community!!

Maybe I should add one more thing. We plan to have painted white wood in the kitchen rather than natural wood, not sure if that makes a difference.

Are the windows clad in the exterior or just wood? Do you know what brand they are? Some brands are much better dealing with rot. Pella for instance has a poor design that is destined to fail. I like triple panes espicially if you have interior condensation , it can be really hard on a wood window.

why get new wood window just to paint it white?

They are painting the kitchen ones and staining the others from my understanding.

So it would make sense to have painted so all the windows are the same.

Some people really dislike the Shiny vinyl look and composites have drawbacks as well.

Every window has drawbacks and not all vinyl is shiny, but makes sense to match those other ones. Didn’t catch that

Todd,

What can I tell you I'm good at it. I'm building a window unit to install in a rough opening. Here's our carriage house and office. The back photo shows the last two window units I built. The interior photos show my construction work before the spray foam. Then one with the ship lap added.

That’s great , but once again you provide no details. Do you put storms on those to stop the air leakage?

I use interior storms with all the windows in the building except one, which has an exterior storm.

The building has four to seven inches of closed cell urethane, so has no air leakage. We use one Rinnai wall heater to heat the building.

4 to 7” of closed cell urethane but questions ROI on replacement windows? Lol

if it’s sealed as well as you say I hope that you’ve tested that bad boy out to make sure that your appliances are drafting properly and you have decent IAQ. Perhaps you have some old timey tools to use for that?

Is the closed cell urethane period correct? Sounds like you Put a fuel injected crate motor into what was a numbers matching 69 camaro, but snicker at others that don’t keep stock wheels

Then he claims it took 2 hours and gives no details!

What sort of rainscreen or drying layer did you provide for with that CC SPF? I have seen more than a few historic building ruined by a non vapor permeable foam application.

Our windows are wood interior and exterior today. I don't know what brand they are, but they are all double pane casement or picture windows plus three sets of French doors. (I believe original to the house, so 30 years old)

I'm not sure if the question about painting them was for me, but it is to try to match them to other windows we are not replacing. The previous owners replaced a couple of windows in the dining nook with white vinyl and compared to the rest of the house looks not great compared with all the wood we have. Fortunately that is on the part of the house we are remodelling next year and plan to replace them with whatever we use for the entire project.

I read you can paint fiberglass, does it at all look like painted wood or would it clash with the rest of our windows? (We plan to have minimal uppers and lots of windows in our new kitchen and hopefully huge windows in our dining + one new set of French or French sliding doors.)

I consulted with the experts at the Green Building Advisor and they felt a rain screen wasn't needed provided the siding was tight. The building has a two foot overhang and gets hit with little rain unless we have high winds which is rare here. The contractor that did the spray foam has 15 years experience with foam, plus 35 years of construction experience. Would I use foam our our historical society building? Not a chance, but we had great results with it at this home. We did all the basement walls in house, we have no water seepage and our dehumidifier only runs 5 months of the year. I empty it every two to three days. It never runs this time of year. Most all our neighbors have foamed walls as well. It's not reversible, so has no place in museum buildings. We used foam in the roof and walls in our 1840 cape cod house. We did a breathable roof , which did a great job. We did reside with quarter sawn spruce adding a layer of breathable fabric first. That was 15 years ago the building has had no ill effects what so ever. The owners are friends and we keep in regular contact, so they would tell us if there was a problem. The owner of the old colonial I restored call every six months, show just did foam in the crawlspace under the kitchen and bath, making it conditioned space.

How are the butt joints on the siding flashed? Seems just an interesting juxtaposition to want to inject and create a bunch of petroleum based chemicals while extolling the virtues of rehabing something vs. replacing it. Batt insulations or a combination of a rigid foam board and batts would work just as well in this case assuming it was done properly and would be far less carbon intensive.

Foam is, absolutely, properly indicated for a bunch of applications like roofs and crawls, but I see not reason to do it in a wall that is otherwise accessible and easy to work with.

Intumescent barrier over the foam in the crawl?

The carriage barn is post and beam with board and batten siding. Around 1900 the roof was changed to a hip configuration. The spruce clapboards were applied at that time. The interior had no studding and I didn't want to make the walls any thicker and lose interior space. It only has 900 sqft per floor. Walls can get quite thick if you're trying to super insulate which wasn't my goal.

It's barn and I wanted to keep that look both inside and out. It's no secret we use it for a shop and office, but when you look from the outside it still appears to be a horse barn. The horse stall windows are still visible in two of the photos.

Painted fiberglass can look like wood , but Typically one would want ti stay with same line of windows throughout mainly because of the exterior appearance.

Depending on what you want to achieve with the new windows, different manufactures can be best options for you.

Depending on my research, overall best score goes to the EnerLux Windows.

Why? Well as far as I can see, they have the best prices among all premium competitors in the US and they offer very high quality and long lasting products.

Again depending on your needs, different manufacturer will be option for you, but always focus on FIberglass Windows manufacturers as I think this is the best option for windows replacement for everyone!

Seems to be a few of those of late.

For what it is worth, I thought I'd circle back on what we chose to do in case it helps anyone else. We love our wood windows and I just wasn't sold on replacing them with fiberglass yet. After lots of research I found Clear Image Glass in Issaquah, WA. (not compensated for mentioning them) The majority of my windows were structurally sound, but with some foggy spots. After a thorough inspection, we decided that most just needed new sills. They are made with Alaskan Yellow Cedar (better for NW elements if choosing wood) and depending on location in house chose LOE 366 or 272. Weathervane is the original manufacturer and not in business anymore, so in the areas we were adding windows, they built custom windows to match our existing exactly. The few areas with rot were fixed. It has been almost a year and we are super pleased. We were even able to keep our existing kitchen windows! New sills were half the cost (or less, depended on window). Custom windows were higher than other bids, but was worth it. For us, we were really happy to keep wood and the charm. Here are my kitchen windows, painted with new sills.

I really love the idea of preserving the original windows rather than tearing out and replacing with a plastic based product. fixing rather than replacing is the greener choice -- and more beautiful! I read that LoE glass helps bounce heat inward in the winter -- so even if you don't have double pane (not sure if you do or not), LoE will still help with energy efficiency! (that, and ensuring all seals are working, which you did.) great choice!

your advice continues to offer negative value

I was responding to widdy23 most recent response, who said they upgraded to LoE with their repair and that otherwise their windows were in decent shape. otherwise, I am with you. there are different pros and cons to repairing vs replacing. but thanks for making your response to me so negative rather than asking me to clarify.

@ILoveMod I appreciate your positive comments and am also happy to generate less waste in this world. My old and new windows are both double pane. My new sills are more energy efficient than previous. (We replaced less than 25%, and the rest are in good shape still.) May not be the right choice for everyone, but was the right choice for us. I've learned a lot on Houzz, so I try to share my experience when possible to help others.