Election security and voter ID

Ann

I certainly agree with the President on this. Any deal on election security should include voter ID.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-voter-id-must-play-very-strong-part-in-deal-on-election-security/ar-AAFLkdz?ocid=spartanntp

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chase_gw

I didn't think that this was an area within the jurisdiction of the federal government. I thought the States controlled the election process. I know there is already a requirement to show ID ( not specific voter ID ) when one registers but don't the States control the specifics around actual voter ID? I could be wrong about this but that is my understanding

Edited

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queenmargo

Common sense should prevail. If you want to vote, show ID.

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elvis

Absolutely. There is no reason voters cannot truthfully identify themselves.

Please don't go on about the 100 year old lady born at home, yadda yadda yadda.

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queenmargo

Elvis that 100 year old lady would have to show her ID to eat at a casino buffet lol

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Kathy

Republicans have purged thousands in predominately black areas that make them unable to vote when they get to the polls even if they were registered legitimately. They are offered a conditional ballot that may or not be counted depending on who is manning the Voting polls. There is more voter suppression by Reps than there are people illegitimately voting.

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Ziemia(6a)

States determine that. Not the president.

He can do what he can to protect the systems. Like encouraging paper ballot back ups.

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elvis

chase_gw

I didn't think that this was an area within the jurisdiction of the federal government. I thought the States controlled the election process.

According to this link to National Conference of State Legislators:

The U.S. is characterized by a highly decentralized election administration system. The entities that do the rubber-meets-the-road functions of running an election are typically on the county or city/town level. The state is responsible for certain aspects of elections as well, and the federal government has a role, too...The dispersed responsibility for running elections also makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to rig U.S. elections at the national level...

http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/election-administration-at-state-and-local-levels.aspx

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chase_gw

Funnily enough the reason being given by the right for not tabling the election security bill passed out of the House is because they say it violates States rights! Trump mustn't have got the memo.

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artemis_ma

I do support presenting ID when voting. Helps prevent multiple votes. The focus should be on providing valid ID to those whom for whatever reason have not obtained it. And if some folk don't want it... that's on them. Don't vote.

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Ann

"He can do what he can to protect the systems. Like encouraging paper ballot back ups."

I'm not talking about Trump and "encouraging". The article is about bills in Congress and what they should and should not include, including paper ballots (which is a fine requirement IMO).

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chase_gw

The current bill mandates paper ballots. Another thing McConnell opposes.

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Ann

Maybe paper ballots and voter ID could be combined into the same bill with each side getting something they want. Good old fashioned compromise. I think the same kind of situation has potential with gun laws when Congress reconvenes - compromise. We'll see about asylum too.

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elvis

Kathy

Republicans have purged thousands in predominately black areas that make them unable to vote when they get to the polls even if they were registered legitimately. They are offered a conditional ballot that may or not be counted depending on who is manning the Voting polls. There is more voter suppression by Reps than there are people illegitimately voting.

Have you ever provided a cite for anything you post?

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elvis

The Help America Vote Act of 2002 (website at link) will inform the reader that the federal government is indeed involved in our federal elections. Here's a sample. https://www.congress.gov/bill/107th-congress/house-bill/3295

(Sec. 303) Requires each State without voter registration requirements for Federal elections to implement a single, uniform, official, centralized, interactive computerized statewide voter registration list that contains the name and registration information, including a unique identifier, of every legally registered voter in the State to serve as the official voter registration list for the conduct of all elections for Federal office in the State. Requires the appropriate State or local election official to perform list maintenance with respect to the computerized list on a regular basis and to provide adequate technological security measures to prevent unauthorized access to the computerized list.

Requires the State election system to ensure that voter registration records in the State are accurate and are updated regularly. Prescribes minimum requirements for verification of voter registration information, including driver's license number or the last four digits of a Social Security number. Requires voters who register by mail to present a current and valid photo identification when voting in person, or if voting by mail, to enclose a copy of such identification or of a current utility bill, bank statement, or government document showing name and address.

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Ziemia(6a)

The article in the OP says little beyond what Trump says.

####

Found a summary of proposals - from a couple of weeks ago.

#REPORT FOREIGN INTERFERENCE

Legislation introduced by Warner would require campaigns to report to federal authorities if they have any contacts with foreign officials who are attempting to interfere in a presidential election.

#SECURE STATE ELECTION SYSTEMS

Minnesota Sen. Amy Klobuchar, a Democratic candidate for president, has introduced legislation to require states to use paper ballots, which would make election systems less vulnerable to hacking. It would also provide additional grants for states to make improvements, among other measures.

#SENATE CYBERSECURITY

Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon and Republican Sen. Tom Cotton of Arkansas have sponsored a bill to protect personal electronic devices and accounts of senators and Senate staff from cyber threats. It would allow Senate officials to provide voluntary assistance to the senators.

##RUSSIAN SANCTIONS

Another bipartisan election security measure from Sens. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., and Chris Van Hollen, D-Md., would slap new sanctions on Russia if it tries to interfere in U.S. elections.

#MORE REGULATION OF ONLINE CAMPAIGN ADS

Legislation first introduced in 2017 by Warner and Klobuchar would extend some political ad rules that now apply to TV, radio and print to the internet. That bill has bipartisan support as well, with Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Lindsey Graham as a cosponsor.

#MAKING IT A CRIME FOR FOREIGN NATIONS TO INTERFERE

In arguing against too many new federal laws, Republicans point to two election security bills that have already passed the Senate.

https://www.apnews.com/693436f36ca04995bf66f07bd4d7b4e4

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chase_gw

"The Help America Vote Act of 2002 (website at link) will inform the
reader that the federal government is indeed involved in our federal
elections."

I didn't say they weren't involved. In fact they are very involved at a macro level especially in things like campaign financing. It is my understanding , and the article confirms it, that while the federal government has authority to establish macro guidelines the actual implementation and management of that is the purview of the State governments.

For example while the federal guidelines say ID must be provided when one registers to vote for the first time , it doesn't say what constitutes a valid ID.

I don't think they have jurisdiction on a specific voter ID at a State level

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Ziemia(6a)

The paper ballot requirement bill pertains only to federal elections, so that may make it doable. I guess we'll if it's actually doable if the bill moves forward.

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Andie

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

No debate on Election Security should go forward without first agreeing that Voter ID (Identification) must play a very strong part in any final agreement. Without Voter ID, it is all so meaningless!


Accepting foreign dirt from the Russians, weaponizing information to sow confusion, and spreading divisions makes “it all” more meaningless.

Irresponsibly tweeting about election security, knowing it will be weaponized online by trolls, and amplifying fears about election results add to that.

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Ziemia(6a)

About HAVA

"To be eligible for federal funding, states must submit a plan describing how payments will be used and distributed, provisions for voter education and poll worker training, how to adopt voting system guidelines, performance measures to determine success (including goals, timetables, responsibilities, and criteria), administrative complaint procedures, and the committee who helped develop the state plan."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_America_Vote_Act?wprov=sfla1

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chase_gw

McConnell has been very vocal on his opposition to an election security bill of any type. He is opposed to expansion of federal rights into a States traditional jurisdiction.

"But even bipartisan coalitions have begun to crumble in the face of the
majority leader’s blockade. Mr. McConnell, long the Senate’s leading
ideological opponent to federal regulation of elections,
has told
colleagues in recent months that he has no plans to consider stand-alone
legislation on the matter this term"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/07/us/politics/election-security-mitch-mcconnell.html


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elvis

I don't think they have jurisdiction on a specific voter ID at a State level

I believe that your reading comprehension on that specific point is sound, chase.

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Chi

The problem is that it costs money in many states to get an ID, not to mention the hours and hours it takes to stand in line at the DMV (if there's even one nearby), potentially impacting employment and having to find and pay for childcare. This essentially is making people pay to vote.

Some states also are trying to require that the address on the ID match current address, which is difficult for people who move a lot or young people.

Requiring voter ID makes it much harder for poor people, minorities and young people to vote. And it really makes you wonder why Republicans are generally the ones that push so hard for these voter ID laws. Hmmmm.

Voter ID can work if the government is committed to allowing people to vote, which it isn't. Voting day is not a holiday in the US, and it's in the middle of the week. This already makes it very difficult for many people to be able to vote. Make it a holiday or on the weekend, provide ample polling locations in ALL areas, and provide free ID for all Americans and maybe then we can talk. But that won't happen because the Republicans don't actually want everyone to vote.

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cait1

@ Chi

The problem is that it costs money in many states to get an ID, not to mention the hours and hours it takes to stand in line at the DMV

Yet they somehow find the ID and time to wait hours and hours to get their welfare in place.

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Ziemia(6a)

There you go, cait1, assuming that those who say they don't have IDs for voting are getting government handouts.

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cait1

I have no problem with fed,gov deciding rules for federal elections and requiring voter ID and returning to paper for federal elections.

The Netherlands, Ireland, Germany and the United Kingdom all gave up on electronic voting because the machines are not secure.

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Carro

And just like that they want the federal government out of state election business. Funny that.

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Carro

“Accepting foreign dirt from the Russians, “


Who bought and paid for a Russian dossier again? Who Weaponized that dossier again? Oh right that was Hillary.

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Ziemia(6a)

Who wants this?

"And just like that they want the federal government out of state election business. "

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Joaniepoanie

RWNJ Chris Kobach’s own commission on voter fraud shut down within months when they had to admit that voter fraud was so rare it could not effect any election. Why isn’t the right believing their own commission?

Repubs can’t win without all manner of voter suppression/cheating and they know it. If they want to institute voter ID laws to protect elections, then they must institute other measures to secure elections as well...no gerrymandering, no purging voters from rolls, paper ballots, cyber-security measures to prevent foreign countries from hacking into voting systems, etc. It’s so obvious and disgusting that they only want to do what can help them win, not what secures all votes.


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Ann

Cait has a point. If a poor person can obtain an ID to participate in one or more welfare programs, they can certainly obtain a voter ID. I'm just not buying the narrative about time off work, child care, lack of transportation, long waits at the DMV, etc. I'm over that argument. Citizens can figure out how to get a voter ID once in their lives. If Dems want to gather together volunteers to provide rides to those without a car or bus, fine. But I'm over this narrative of excuses as to how very hard it is to get one important ID.

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chase_gw

Ann are you talking voter ID , as in a specific ID for voting, or a registered government issued photo ID like a drivers license ...?

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Ziemia(6a)

Ann, are you assuming those who say it's a hardship have few real struggles OR you think they are telling lies? You can't imagine a life very different from yours - and so they must not be truthful about it?

Have you looked into the specifics?

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Ziemia(6a)
  • States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

After we are registered to vote, and have voted for the first time, California does not require us to present ID in subsequent elections, unless a move has required a registration with new address.


I haven't been asked for ID when voting in decades.


When I vote by mail, no ID required at all -- just your name and address on the county voter rolls.

.

Those asserting that ID required for certain institutions, organizations, and benefits should be sufficient for voter ID are doing so without knowing if the requirements are the same.

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Ziemia(6a)

It's always interesting to see the maps.

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_identification_laws_by_state

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numbersjunkie

OPPOSE VOTER ID LEGISLATION - FACT SHEET

  • Background

Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights. Thirty-four states have identification requirements at the polls. Seven states have strict photo ID laws, under which voters must present one of a limited set of forms of government-issued photo ID in order to cast a regular ballot – no exceptions.

Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities. Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.

Voter ID Laws Deprive Many Americans of the Right to Vote

  • Millions of Americans Lack ID. 11% of U.S. citizens – or more than 21 million Americans – do not have government-issued photo identification.1
  • Obtaining ID Costs Money. Even if ID is offered for free, voters must incur numerous costs (such as paying for birth certificates) to apply for a government-issued ID.
    • Underlying documents required to obtain ID cost money, a significant expense for lower-income Americans. The combined cost of document fees, travel expenses and waiting time are estimated to range from $75 to $175.2
    • The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3
  • Voter ID Laws Reduce Voter Turnout. A 2014 GAO study found that strict photo ID laws reduce turnout by 2-3 percentage points,4 which can translate into tens of thousands of votes lost in a single state.5

Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory

  • Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6
  • States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.
  • Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7
  • Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8

Voter ID Requirements are a Solution in Search of a Problem

  • In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9
  • Identified instances of “fraud” are honest mistakes. So-called cases of in-person impersonation voter “fraud” are almost always the product of an elections worker or a voter making an honest mistake, and that even these mistakes are extremely infrequent.10
  • Voter ID laws are a waste of taxpayer dollars. States incur sizeable costs when implementing voter ID laws, including the cost of educating the public, training poll workers, and providing IDs to voters.
    • Texas spent nearly $2 million on voter education and outreach efforts following passage of its Voter ID law.11
    • Indiana spent over $10 million to produce free ID cards between 2007 and 2010.12

The ACLU has led the charge against Voter ID in several states, challenging voter ID laws in in states such as Pennsylvania, Arkansas, Wisconsin, and North Carolina. For more information, please contact Robert Hoffman at rhoffman@aclu.org or visit https://www.aclu.org/issues/voting-rights/fighting-voter-suppression/fighting-voter-id-requirements to learn more.

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Ann

Ziemia, I have no doubt there are many people who face hardships. But, that's an entirely different issue than oh so important election security. I feel the same way about the border. While I understand people with hardships are showing up at our southern border, we need laws (that are followed), we need an orderly legal process, and we need to eliminate illegal immigration. Sob stories don't work in any of these areas. I'm over the sob stories with situations that require (and demand) clearly stated and enforced laws. Within the orderly legal process, extend plenty of American kindness, but don't toss important legal processes out the window (like voting and border security) with a pile of shaming and sob story tactics. Our country (and all successful countries) require orderly lawful processes. Within that envelope, kindness has an important role and should be extended.

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elvis

Chi

The problem is that it costs money in many states to get an ID,

Which states? In my state it's free.

not to mention the hours and hours it takes to stand in line at the DMV (if there's even one nearby), potentially impacting employment and having to find and pay for childcare.

If you've got a job, you probably have ID.

If you have time to stand in line to vote, you can make time to procure the necessary ID with which to do so.

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elvis

When I vote by mail, no ID required at all -- just your name and address on the county voter rolls.

So someone other than you could use your vote. Not good. What happens when you send in your vote and they tell you they've already received one from "you"? Which one counts?

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queenmargo

What happens when you send in your vote and they tell you they've already received one from "you"? Which one counts?

If it is a vote for a Dem, they will both count lol , Broward County lol lol

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patriciae_gw(07)

Security is not an issue of individual voters lying in order to vote fraudulently but is a problem of potentially hacking systems. Because we have the electoral college you do not need to hack the entire countries systems to change who wins the presidency. You only need to do key states. it could be as little as one-like Florida back in 2000.

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numbersjunkie

From above fact sheet I posted, which no one bothered to read....

  • In-person fraud is vanishingly rare. A recent study found that, since 2000, there were only 31 credible allegations of voter impersonation – the only type of fraud that photo IDs could prevent – during a period of time in which over 1 billion ballots were cast.9
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Joaniepoanie

OMG....Trump’s own administration could not prove massive voter fraud as contended by the conservative members here. Ha....you’re not believing Trump now? The biggest threat to our elections is voter suppression and hacking by foreign countries.....McConnell won’t do anything about either....gee, why is that?

My mail in ballot has my info pre-printed on it....they can’t receive two from me.....duh! The right needs to do some homework on this issue from legitimate sources....not Fox, not McConnell, not Trump.

https://www.apnews.com/f5f6a73b2af546ee97816bb35e82c18d

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Chi

Which states? In my state it's free.


Which state is that? Free for everyone? I've found fees for pretty much all states I've looked at. CA is $31. There are some reductions and waivers available for specific circumstances, mostly if you're a senior or homeless.

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queenmargo

These comments just go to show how "entitled" you are.

Sounds like elvis IS entitled to vote. She has an ID. If voting is important, people will make provisions to obtain an ID.

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Ziemia(6a)

In my state, a government ID is expensive.

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maifleur01

Sometimes it is the documents to prove who you are that are not free. Here a certified birth certificate is required. On line it is $39. Then if you have changed your name by marriage or divorce $10. Add to that the time away from your employment. I need to renew my drivers license in January and interesting one of the requirements is a utility bill showing my name and current address. It made me wonder how many people that are living with others have a utility bill in their name.

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Joaniepoanie

Does the right not know that in order to register to vote you must show state ID in most states? If you do not have a state ID you can provide the last four digits of your SS#, which I assume is then verified. Other states require ID at poll.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/millennial-guide-to-voting_b_1897607

It’s hysterical that the right believes there is massive voter fraud. How many times have they been held up at the polls while polling workers scramble to figure out who’s who and call the police to apprehend all the fraudulent voters who have shown up.



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queenmargo

MY goodness, it is just an ID. I bet they find their way to get a mobile phone, or a computer, or a play station. There is 4 years in between elections. There is ample time to get an ID. Stop with the histrionics.

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patriciae_gw(07)

We have had this discussion so many times and the same people say the same things. Too many conservatives don't see any reason to not throw obstacles in the paths of voters defending this by the idea that somehow people are pretending to be someone else when they vote. No one has ever shown this to be in any way a threat to our voting system but we all need to spend millions to keep citizens from voting in order to forestall this imaginary threat. Real threats? who cares. If we could convince conservatives that ID is something liberals want and voting machine security and paper ballots something they don't then we could get some action.

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HU-219136540

Our state is one of three that have vote by mail.

No ID, no signing anything

no problems

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maifleur01

Wondering how many mechanics that work at various auto shops have photo id or even any id? There are many jobs that do not have ID's. I hire a guy to mow my lawn but I have never provided him with an job ID.

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Andie

It's good to see Stacey Abrams has taken an initiative with Fair Fight 2020.


https://fairfight.com/fair-fight-2020/

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elvis

Which state is that? Free for everyone? I've found fees for pretty much all states I've looked at. CA is $31.

Wisconsin. Free for everyone. If CA had voter ID, I'm sure they would make provisions for everyone to have access to a free one. Right?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, I looked up Wisconsin and mercy. You can get a voter ID even if you aren't a citizen if you take what is written there at face value. Otherwise you have to have all the usual documentation. there seems to be a provision for the state doing the document search for you which means all the fees involved will be paid for by You Elvis to solve a problem that doesn't exist in the state of Wisconsin. Couldn't they just put more people on medicaide?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If CA had voter ID


Why would we require voter ID -- there are no problems with voting as it now stands.

We don't need an impediment to voting, nor do we need a poll tax by another name,

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Ann

"If we could convince conservatives that ID is something liberals want and voting machine security and paper ballots something they don't then we could get some action."

Fantastic, how about all three? Liberals seem terrified of voter ID and come up with endless sob stories as to why it's so darn unfair and unkind and, especially, such an incredible hardship. Nope, I'm over that nonsense. It's silly!

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chase_gw

Ann, still not clear on wether you mean a specific voter ID or just some sort of photo ID.

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Ann

We have mail in voting. We had a family member that was very ill and died between the time they received a mail in ballot and election day. It would have been no problem whatsoever for any of the family members (or anyone else that saw the ballot sitting on the counter) to fill it out, add any date prior to the person's death and sign the name of the deceased. The family, of course, chose not to take this illegal action, but it never would have been detected. That's ridiculous that something could be done so easily with a mail in ballot. Oh yes, it's easy. Far too easy! Think of the many situations where that could be abused. Situations like people living in a home who have moved out just as ballots have been mailed out and the landlord or new residents simply fill out the ballot and sign the person's full name (which is nicely printed on the ballot). Heck, people could simply steal ballots from mailboxes as all the ballots are mailed at the same time. The abuse and illegal possibilities are many!

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Ann

Chase, a specific ID that has determined if the person is 100% eligible as a voter. 13 states allow illegals to obtain driver's licenses so, clearly, that won't work. From Wikipedia.

"As of June 2019, 13 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico issue driver's licenses or permits to some or all of the population residing unlawfully in the United States. State laws permitting this are on the books in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, New Mexico, Nevada, New York, Utah, Vermont, and Washington.[1][2][3] The issue is being debated in New Jersey,[4][5][6] while Oregon issued such licenses until 2008 and briefly from 2013 until the 2014 Oregon Ballot Measure 88.["

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maifleur01

I have to agree with Ann about the ways that mail in ballots could be misused. While convenient and really little different than the ballots that are allowed for people who will not be able to go to their regular site the volume of having everyone vote in a state by mail could lead to all kinds of misuse. My first thought when I first read that it had been adopted was the idea of children in the household thinking they were advertisements and voting.

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maifleur01

There was a group of bills in Oregon last year that again would allow workers from other countries to receive provisional drivers licenses. The growers were finding that even the legal workers did not have a license from their home countries because they did not own a vehicle. Not certain it passed or not.

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Kathy

In Georgia’s gubernatorial race last year, 100,000 voters’ registrations were cancelled because they hadn’t voted in seven years. Another 53,000, 70 per cent of whom were black, had their registration put on hold for something as minor as a missing hyphen.

It isn’t always about voter ID. Sometimes voter suppression is the problem.

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Ziemia(6a)

Allowing RMVs to do voter registration does not put the RMV in charge of voting registration.

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Ziemia(6a)

Do all the TrumpFans here believe Trump is incapable of having voting fraud uncovered? Just some of it?

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chase_gw

Drivers licences are available to non citizens, not just illegals. Not sure why the need to point specifically to illegals. IMO illegals are less likely to bring attention to themselves by attempting to vote.

A separate ID that serves no purpose but to verify you are a ciizen entitled to vote seems an expensive solution requiring millions and millions and millions of people to obtain additional ID. That would take years to implement.

Does the problem exist to the point that such a solution is warranted?

ETA I personally support requiring ID to vote but I would not support a designated "citizenship card " in Canada. What I would suppprt is proving citzenship at the time one first registers to vote.

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Ziemia(6a)

And, Trump had a blue ribbon team work at uncovering election fraud.

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chase_gw

I personally think Trump is setting the scene for a loss in 2020 that he will blame on millions of illegal votes ......a rigged election. Only if he loses of course.

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Ann

"Drivers licences are available to non citizens, not just illegals. Not sure why the need to point specifically to illegals. "

Well, let's see. Maybe because I think illegal and "residing unlawfully" represent the same thing.

"As of June 2019, 13 U.S. states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico issue driver's licenses or permits to some or all of the population residing unlawfully in the United States. "


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Ann

"I personally think Trump is setting the scene for a loss in 2020 that he will blame on millions of illegal votes ......a rigged election. Only if he loses of course."

Sure, it wouldn't be that he thinks the U.S. should have election security and only living legal voters should have the right to place a vote, should they so choose and if they have followed the proper procedures.

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elvis

Ziemia(6a)

Do all the TrumpFans here believe Trump is incapable of having voting fraud uncovered? Just some of it?

What do you mean by that?

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chase_gw

"Sure, it wouldn't be that he thinks the U.S. should have election security and only living legal voters should have the right to place a vote, should they so choose and if they have followed the proper procedures"

No, IMO it wouldn't be. He was happy enough with Russias help with his election to show we that all he cares about is the win.

ETA.

Also, his refusal to acknowledge and act decisively on election interference legislation and prevantative measures proves further he doesn't give a give darn about the security of elections, only the outcome.

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Ziemia(6a)

Sigh

#Trump insisted there were lots of fraudulent votes in 2016

#Trump created a blue ribbon team to uncover the major problem

#The team found nothing

#maybe TrumpFans have apparently forgotten this because of the outcome?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Big fuss about almost nothing, as ziemia pointed out!

And as Trump himself discovered when he disbanded his special Voter Fraud Commission run by Kris Kobach who has made a career out of charging and failing to prove voter fraud.

Reminder from last year: Report: Trump commission did not find widespread voter fraud

Gee whiz--if you can't believe your own Republican president, who can you believe?

Kate

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HU-219136540

Funny none of those suggested problems with voting by mail has happened

maybe we are just more honest out here ;-)

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elvis

How do you know that?

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numbersjunkie

So here's my take.

I think the Republicans are trying to whip their base into a frenzy about voter fraud and the need for IDs because they are actually trying trying to suppress votes from certain populations. There were enough stories that came to light about the various schemes in the last several elections to support this.

I'm not saying that voter fraud NEVER happens, but it is not a material threat to our system. The voter commission Trump put together and then quietly disbanded should be proof enough, especially given that there is no other data to support otherwise.

Meanwhile, all of our intelligence people are telling us we have other very serious issues with election security, which the Republicans are ignoring and refusing to take action on. The voter ID issue is a red herring to distract from the REAL issue - and it meets their objective to suppress votes.

Two birds with one stone. And fairly obvious if you have your eyes and ears uncovered.

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catkinZ8a



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numbersjunkie

LOL.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The real crisis is getting Americans to vote. You want to blow a wad on making them prove they should be able to vote? Every single study proves over and over that making people get ID to vote excludes the same segment of the population. Just keep ignoring that fact. If you use someone's mail in ballot YOU have to sign the thing with someone else's name and that is voter fraud. Ballots are checked against lists just like if the person went to the polls. If you have signed that ballot illegally the consequences are severe and for some reason that is typically sufficient to keep Americans from doing it. Who is going to risk prison in order to vote Great Aunt Myrtle's ballot?

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sjerin

You are right on the nose, Numbers. The repubs continually allow themselves to be jerked around and worked into the frenzy du jour, which always happens after trump works them up.

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Ziemia(6a)

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) — The now-disbanded voting integrity commission launched by the Trump administration uncovered no evidence to support claims of widespread voter fraud, according to an analysis of administration documents released Friday.

...

Dunlap said those figures were never brought before the commission, and that Kobach hasn’t presented any evidence for his claims of double voting. He said the commission was presented with a report claiming over 1,000 convictions for various forms of voter misconduct since 1948.

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Joaniepoanie

Voter ID is soooooo not the issue, but cyber security is. Why won’t the Repubs do anything about that?

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chase_gw

Because they both help them win......

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margaritadina

''

It’s surprisingly difficult to find good information on voter roll registration. One of the most widely cited sources is a 2012 PEW study which found the following problems with America’s voter rolls:

  • Approximately 24 million–one out of every eight–voter registrations in the United States are no longer valid or are significantly inaccurate
  • More than 1.8 million deceased individuals are listed as voters
  • Approximately 2.75 million people have registrations in more than one state

Despite its age, the Pew Study is still cited by sources like the National Conference of State Legislatures precisely because very few quantifiable newer studies seem to exist.'' https://themarketswork.com/2018/10/31/is-voter-fraud-real-a-look-at-californias-illegal-voter-registration-problem/

Voter ID. A must. Those who think that it's important to vote will find the way to obtain an ID. If I did, they can, too.

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Ann

Trump was just talking about voter ID at his New Hampshire rally. The crowd went wild when he said it was a must. I agree. I have no problem with all sorts of elections security initiatives, but something is really fishy if you don't support voter ID. It's a simple and straightforward concept.

By the way, I have a friend who had a parent who recently died and they are actually having trouble getting them off the voter rolls. Now, that's an issue and probably goes right along with the narrative of 1.8 million deceased individuals listed as voters in 2012!

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patriciae_gw(07)

I was doubtless registered in more than one state in my life as I never thought about canceling my previous state when I moved, which I used to do regularly. So where is the problem? Did I vote in two states? No I did not and apparently neither does the presidents children who also suffered this same "problem". Voter registrations can become invalid if you move-odd that didn't happen to me in this state when I moved. They some how fixed it. Oh gee. Please internalize this fact. AMERICANS DO NOT VOTE. That is the huge problem here. We don't vote. It is not that we vote multiple times, it is that we do not vote at all. No investigation of voters has shown that Americans are voting illegally. The fact that it could happen is not evidence that it does. If you do and someone investigates and it is found out you will suffer the ire of the criminal justice system. That has been working for us just fine.

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Carro

Ann, wanting voter I.D. and wanting secure voting go hand in hand. I don't understand not pushing for voter I.D.

Given how many things people need I.D. for, this shouldn't be an impediment.

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olliesmom

Do you honestly think someone-ANYONE who doesn't have a photo ID is going to bother to vote??

Who are these people? And, why do you want them to vote so bad? They probably don't even know what's going on in politics? Think they read the newspaper everyday? Think they watch CNN or Fox?

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PRO
Anglophilia

Let's see. I have to show a government issued photo ID at every one of my doctor's offices every time I go. I have to show a government issued photo ID in order to get past airport security and board a plane. I need to show a government issued photo ID in order to enter a federal office building, and many military posts.


NO ONE is screaming that these policies "discriminate" or are too difficult/expensive for people to have, but they sure do when the subject of ID to vote comes up. The bottom line is that in today's world, there are innumerable places a government issued photo ID must be used and they can't be that hard to obtain.

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Ann

"Who are these people? And, why do you want them to vote so bad? They probably don't even know what's going on in politics? Think they read the newspaper everyday? Think they watch CNN or Fox? "

I also find this push to get everyone to vote odd. If someone doesn't vote, they've made that choice and it may very well be it's not important to them. Voting isn't a mandate. It's a free choice. What's up with this great concern about the portion of the population that chooses not to vote? Why would you want to nearly force people to vote, unless you somehow think it will be helpful to the side you support? As olliesmom pointed out, many in this group might not have any clue what is going on in politics, what the candidates stand for, etc. It's definitely odd that you are feeling nearly desperate to get this group of people to vote.

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olliesmom

That's right, Ann. Why are Dems so desperate to get this group of people to vote?? Very odd.

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Ann

I think it must be because they feel it will help them increase votes for "their side". Who cares if the person has any clue why they are voting or for what, if it's an additional vote they think will likely go their way or maybe that person who doesn't care will simply vote as they are told to.

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elvis

olliesmom

That's right, Ann. Why are Dems so desperate to get this group of people to vote?? Very odd.

"This group of people". Who are they, anyway? If you have a job and pay taxes, you have ID. If you don't have a job, you're getting some sort of government assistance, and you've got ID. So who is this "group of people", and how large a group could they be?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?

Hence the mealymouthed arguments in favor of voter suppression - by any other name.

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chase_gw

" The bottom line is that in today's world, there are innumerable places
a government issued photo ID must be used and they can't be that hard
to obtain."

There is a difference between ID and ID that expressly denotes one as a citizen of a country and serves no other purpose but to vote.

Seriously expensive way to address a problem that doesn't exist to any serious extent.

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chase_gw

margievank

"There is 4 years in between elections."

I thought that there was only two years between federal elections and then of course there are municipal elections.....or is the assertion that fraud only happens in Presidential elections?

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queenmargo

Thank you chase for impressing me with your knowledge. I was speaking in regards to a presidential election.

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Ziemia(6a)

#Trump's blue ribbon committee could not find fraudulent votes

#ID for voting is different from other government IDs. Unless you are just saying any govt photo ID is needed to vote.

# How does a big city kid (who has no family car nor need for one) get a government ID? They do not need to take the time for a driver's license. (Just one example)

#A 90 year old father moves from Florida up north. Gave up driving years ago. How does he easily get a new ID just for voting?

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chase_gw


" I was speaking in regards to a presidential election."

Why is ID only important in Presidential elections? Is that the only time all these illegals vote?

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queenmargo

Why is ID only important in Presidential elections? Is that the only time all these illegals vote?

More than likely!

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

I recall some past reporting of how there were places that would not accept the state issued ID used by low income folks for gov't subsidies.

Now why would that be?

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Ann

"So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?"

We seem to be discussing a group of people who don't have any ID or any means whatsoever of getting ID. I have no idea who this hypothetical individual might vote for but I guess it's possible if someone handed them a ballot, lunch, and $20 - this individual might be so inclined to fill it out as "suggested" and sign it. I would assume this might be likely to be a person from the homeless population, and there is unfortunately no shortage of homeless in our country at present. Any idea of which party might be more motivated to increase voting of this nature? I have a guess. And, I have an opinion that this category of voter might not have any clue who they are voting for or even why they are voting - and would not be motivated to take the process seriously or even participate in it at all. This is the picture I'm getting as I'm reading this thread about how "important" it is to some that everyone place a vote (including those who would have trouble obtaining or no interest in obtaining proper voter ID). Why? Because those so called voters might just do as they're told by someone trying to take advantage of an opportunity to buy or otherwise obtain votes?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Registered in more than one state? How soon they forget.

Source: NYT 2017

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Ann

"Seriously expensive way to address a problem that doesn't exist to any serious extent. "

Hmmm, if we're going to tackle election security, and we're going to look at numerous avenues one group or another thinks "doesn't exist to any serious extent", maybe all combined, we'll come up with solutions that add up to a "serious extent". It's certainly disingenuous for either political party to implement only changes that they think will benefit their interests, rather than the overall outcome of better election security - ballots only being cast by legal voters and only one ballot per person who has chosen to vote.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump's blue ribbon committee could not find fraudulent votes in the 2016 prez election

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Annie Deighnaugh

I would like to see improved integrity in our voting systems. For me the question is what constitutes ID. We have ID required in our state, but it's flexible enough that people are able to obtain ID with a modicum of effort.

The problem is where states are actively suppressing votes from minority and impoverished classes which tend to vote largely democratic by making onerous demands on them to obtain very specific and inflexible ID rules.

The evidence of states doing this is overwhelming vs. the evidence of voter fraud via ID which is vanishingly small. It's *hard* to swing an election by voter fraud. It really is. It's much easier to rig machines, rig the counts, make voting inaccessible in certain districts and areas, and reduce voting hours/machines/locations in those areas.

I wouldn't mind the gop demand for voter ID so much if they were as equally interested in seeing that voting in all districts is equally accessible to all and that votes aren't intentionally suppressed. As well as showed even a modicum of concern for what the russians are doing in our election systems.

Is it so hard to want free, honest and fair elections for all rather than just all republicans?

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

just so everyone is on the same page about this - the argument is not, and never was, about whether to require voter ID or not. Its about equity, fairness, and non preferential treatment in how its implimented. You cant cherry pick forms of ID that favor your party's voters or make certain classes of people jump through more hoops while others get off easy. Fer instance - a gun registration is acceptable ID while a student ID is not and student has to jump through hoops to get another special voter ID? That's not right.


Meanwhile, theres other states which have had voter ID for decades without complaint or lawsuits - the difference is that everyone gets the same voter ID thats only used for voting, via exact same process through county clerks offic e- no preferential treatment for any class of person.

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queenmargo

OK- how about EVERYONE gets a VOTER ID. An ID used only for voting. We can all jump through the same hoop.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

What kind of ID is needed is the real issue. As chase pointed out above, there is a difference between "ID and ID that expressly denotes one as a citizen of a country and serves no other purpose but to vote."

The "reforms" that have been proposed in the past several years are for a special kind of ID for voting--not for the ID most of us already possess.

As for those of you who have to present IDs left and right any and every place you go, all I can say is that I must not get around much since I almost never get asked to show an ID. Last one I remember was the last election (my driver's license with photo was sufficient) and the one time before that was the election before that.

Under the proposed voter reforms, my driver's license with photo would evidently not be sufficient. I would have to get one that certifies I am a real "citizen."

Kate

ETA: Of course Trumplicans don't want to expand the voter base. It is a well-known, well-established fact that the larger the voter turn-out, the stronger the Democratic vote.

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Ann

"making onerous demands on them to obtain very specific and inflexible ID rules"

I just don't buy this. For voting purposes, we need to know if a person can legally vote. It's as simple as that. If that can't be demonstrated or determined, one should not vote.

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chase_gw

The solutions aren't all that tough. Establish and independent , non political body to oversee all aspect of elections. Take this out of the hands of politicians with only one agenda....getting elected!

edited

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Annie Deighnaugh

All of this focus on voter id does *nothing* to make our elections secure from hacking. *Nothing*. And given what's happened in the past and what's happening now, that is by far the much larger concern.

GOP Texas Rep. Will Hurd had asked: “Did you think that this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election or did you find evidence to suggest they’ll try to do this again?” during a hearing of the House Intelligence Committee.

“It wasn’t a single attempt. They’re doing it as we sit here and they expect to do it during the next campaign,” he [mueller] said.

If you have any concern at all about counting every vote and every vote counts, then you need to refocus on the bigger picture. Voter ID is the glass of water, hacking election systems is the tsumani.

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elvis

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?

Please cite your sources. I've never seen this.

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chase_gw

Good luck with millions of new ID's based solely on citizenship............especially in the absence of factual data to support the need. The business case is built entirely on emotion not on facts.

Yet an identified problem , backed by reams of reputable data and supported by all branches of government and all the main agencies, except Trump himself, is considered a "hoax"There is absolutely no logic being applied.

EDITED

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Annie Deighnaugh

Stories like this one can be repeated thousands and thousands of times...it's about what constitutes a valid ID.

HOUSTON — In his wallet, Anthony Settles carries an expired Texas identification card, his Social Security card and an old student ID from the University of Houston, where he studied math and physics decades ago. What he does not have is the one thing that he needs to vote this presidential election: a current Texas photo ID.

For Settles to get one of those, his name has to match his birth certificate — and it doesn’t. In 1964, when he was 14, his mother married and changed his last name. After Texas passed a new voter-ID law, officials told Settles he had to show them his name-change certificate from 1964 to qualify for a new identification card to vote.

So with the help of several lawyers, Settles tried to find it, searching records in courthouses in the D.C. area, where he grew up. But they could not find it. To obtain a new document changing his name to the one he has used for 51 years, Settles has to go to court, a process that would cost him more than $250 — more than he is willing to pay. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/getting-a-photo-id-so-you-can-vote-is-easy-unless-youre-poor-black-latino-or-elderly/2016/05/23/8d5474ec-20f0-11e6-8690-f14ca9de2972_story.html


Also from article: A federal court in Texas found that 608,470 registered voters don’t have the forms of identification that the state now requires for voting.

If you were truly interested in free honest and fair elections where every vote counts and everyone who is eligible and wants to vote can, then this should be a huge area of concern.

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Ziemia(6a)

There is no need for this make-work, expensive project.

Trump's blue ribbon committee could not find fraudulent votes in the 2016 prez election

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elvis

chase_gw

" The bottom line is that in today's world, there are innumerable places
a government issued photo ID must be used and they can't be that hard
to obtain."

There is a difference between ID and ID that expressly denotes one as a citizen of a country and serves no other purpose but to vote.

Seriously expensive way to address a problem that doesn't exist to any serious extent.

You've shown very intense interest in figuring out how to vote in the US. I sense that you're trying to figure out how you, as a Canadian who is apparently heavily vested in the outcome of US elections, can vote in the US. Is that true?

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chase_gw

So absurd as to not be worthy of a response.

"You've shown very intense interest in figuring out how to vote in the US."

Actually I'll change my mind. I will answer if you can show one iota of information that would suggest I have tried to figure out how to vote in the US.....much less" very intense interest".

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queenmargo

Now if it were me making the call, I would have everyone vote with their fingerprint.

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Ziemia(6a)

Maybe it takes connecting the dots.

"LAST NOVEMBER, REPUBLICANS lost 40 seats in the House of Representatives, nearly 300 seats in state legislatures, seven governorships, and suffered the worst defeat in the congressional popular vote since 1974.

Now the GOP has come up with a strategy to reverse these losses: change the rules. Five months after being trounced at the polls, Republican legislators across the country are not trying to convince voters to support them; rather, they’re passing legislation that will make it more difficult to unseat them.


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Ziemia(6a)

"In Tennessee, the Republican-controlled legislature will soon vote on a bill that would impose civil penalties for sending in incomplete registration forms, and criminal penalties for voter-drive organizations that fail to turn in voter registration forms within 10 days or have its volunteers attend mandatory training sessions. Tennessee already has one of the lowest voting participation rates in the country, so why make it more difficult to register new voters?

In 2018, nearly 90,000 new black voters — who primarily vote Democratic — registered in the state."

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/04/26/the-gop-plan-prevent-voters-from-voting/rktnd2ym5rgTNuQfGTC8UO/story.html

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Annie Deighnaugh

From 2016 Business Week:

To compensate for this, Trump’s campaign has devised another strategy, which, not surprisingly, is negative. Instead of expanding the electorate, Bannon and his team are trying to shrink it. “We have three major voter suppression operations under way,” says a senior official. They’re aimed at three groups Clinton needs to win overwhelmingly: idealistic white liberals, young women, and African Americans.

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Annie Deighnaugh

carolb: So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?

Elvis: Please cite your sources. I've never seen this.

Would moscow mitch be a source you'd accept elvis?

On the Senate floor, Majority Leader Mitch McConnell announced his opposition to a relatively uncontroversial measure that would make Election Day a federal holiday in order to make it easier for people to get to the polls. He called it a “power grab” that would help Democrats win elections. Jan 2019


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elvis

Source? Context is important. Of course, verification is paramount.

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chase_gw

Elvis, you owe me an explanation for your preposterous allegation.


edited

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cait1

What I find interesting is that non-US citizens are so concerned that US citizens want to ensure the integrity of our elections. Non-US citizens don't have skin in our game, so why fight hard against something that doesn't concern them? And why propose another bureaucracy for US citizens to contend with that would waste more tax-payer money?

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Ann

Yes, why would any non-U.S. citizen argue against potential U.S. election rules, laws, or even ideas? That makes no sense.

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chase_gw

You are totally mistaken if you think I am concerned. I actualy, as I mentioned up thread, support the use of ID to vote.

I couldn't care less what Americans decide to do, and offer no opinion on what they should do. I simply offer my opinion , in a generic sense, or as it applies to Canada.

You folk either need to read better or leave your personal bias behind when reading what I post...not that you will.

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chase_gw

"And why propose another bureaucracy for US citizens to contend with that would waste more tax-payer money"

Cait, an independent group responsible for administering all the details around elections does not create another bureaucracy and in fact saves taxpayer dollars.

There are already hundreds of people admnistering elections in every State. All it does is removes those people from the political process. As it is now the people and rules change everytime there is a change in the party governing. This result is partisan decision that often end up in litigation......not cheap.

As an example an independent board would establish non partisan parameters that would decide when boundaries should be changed. Additionally they would establish polling station locations and hours that would only change if certain conditions change , like a popultion shift. These things would change less often and be based on real facts not political bull carp.

The end result is stability, predictability and the removing of the harangue from the political process. Just the money saved in arguing these things endlessly would be worth it.

Just my opinion.....but I think you guys enjoy the constant fighting about how elections are administered as how the other guy is rigging it.....so unproductive.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Are our rightward marching comrades advocating for a national, federally-run voting system?

That seems contrary to conservative ideals.

And I think it's funny how someone being from another country comes into question after members appear to have run out of relevant points. So welcoming and inclusive!

IIRC, Gardenweb originated in Canada - or am I mistaken?

And thank you to those providing info for people who might be living under a red colored rock...

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Ziemia(6a)

The entire world has "skin in the game" vis-à-vis US elections.

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Kathy

The RW who are constantly railing against the big Gub and bureaucracy seem to be all in favor of handing over their freedoms to Trump. They won’t know what they have lost until he is gone and dumped them just as he has dumped everyone else he doesn’t need.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

All baiting aside, I just upgraded my DL to a "federal ID", which will become mandatory for flights, etc in just under a year. Why not wrap voter ID and a national cwp into it as well?

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chase_gw

Jonny.., Not sure what a cwp is but are you thinking this federal voter ID would require proof of citizenship or just legal residency?

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

Sorry Chase, concealed weapons permit. I had to provide my birth certificate and ss card. So, yes, I think a person would have to be legal. It is called a REAL ID. This is what SC, and i would assume other states require:

  • Proof of Identity
    • Examples: Government-issued birth certificate or unexpired US Passport
  • Proof of Social Security Number
    • Examples: Social security card or W-2 Form that has your social security number and name and your employer's name
  • Two Proofs of Current, Physical SC Address
    • Examples: Current, unexpired South Carolina driver's license or identification card and a no more than 90-day-old utility bill with the same name and address
      View a complete list of all accepted address documents on the United States Citizens’ Checklist (SCDMV Form MV-93).
  • Proof of all Legal Name Changes
    • Examples: Marriage license or court order issued by your county's probate or family court
      You must show a complete name change history that links your birth certificate name to your present day name. If you have a valid US Passport or US Passport Card with your current, legal name, you may use that as your name change document.
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chase_gw

Get all that but some are proposing a proof of citizenship ID..totally different than being "legal". None of what you describe speaks to citizenship just legal status..

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I know that chase, why I originally posted "Why not wrap voter ID and a national cwp into it as well?

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chase_gw

Are so saying that in order to vote an American should have ID saying they are a citizen and permitted to carry a concealed weapon? What if you don't want to carry a concealed weapon........you just want to vote? What if you are a legal resident, non citizen, but want a CSW permit?

I'm confused what you mean.

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Ziemia(6a)

Not all legal US residents are eligible voters.

(It's been said before but stunned the confusion continues.)

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Kathy

I’d like to see less cwp, not more.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I don't know what cwp has to do with voting and I wouldn't recommend it. Gun ownership and the ability to carry concealed has nothing to do with voting or personal identification.

Also, this may come as a shock, but not everyone drives or has a drivers' license, especially in urban areas where public transportation is plentiful so it's not needed...or in instances where someone's visual acuity or other disability may prevent them from driving, but not from voting.

Also, there was a lot of gop pushback just a few years ago against motor-voter laws where people would be registered to vote when they got their drivers' license because it was argued by them that that was insufficient and open to fraud. So it really is about voter suppression, not secure elections.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

For voting purposes, we need to know if a person can legally vote. It's as simple as that.


Eligibility to vote is determined when one registers to vote - at least that's how it's done in California.


Registering is the hurdle, not each time a registered voter goes to the polls.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Yes, please focus in on Nancy's point. "Eligibility to vote is determined when one registers to vote." Eligibility does NOT need to be determined again and again every time there is an election.

Besides, getting hung up on voter ID is a waste of time. There is absolutely no evidence that voter fraud is occurring at the voting place. In other words, there is no problem on that score. So why are some of you wasting time trying to fix a problem that does not exist?

"Election security" is a totally different matter. It is about electronic break-ins and someone (like Russians?) hacking into the voting equipment in order to make it malfunction in a way that would benefit one candidate over the others. My son has a computer and network security degree--he is the type of professional who would have to be called in to fix "election security" problems.

"Election security" is NOT about whether you showed a certain kind of voter ID before entering the voting booth.

Most of you are talking at sixes and sevens on this topic--which is to say, you don't know what you are talking about.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

And I meant to add above--

will several of you posters quit piling on Chase? She is one of the more intelligent and informed posters on this forum, and I, for one, am glad she regularly joins in discussing issues.

There is no reason to be mean and nasty towards her just because you don't like her politics! In fact, such treatment is downright shameful and you owe her an apology.

Kate

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Ziemia(6a)

Looks like those accusations lodged against chase have been addressed by management.

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Ziemia(6a)

Clear the TrumpFans here do not see the need to define and understand the dangers to our election systems before finding solutions.

Edited

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

So, hmmm, ok. A CWP has nothing to do with voter ID.


My point, easily missed I guess, is that the Feds could wrap it all up in a neat little bow and encompass a couple of things with one single national ID. That is all.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I would think that a single national ID would solve several issues.


Force people to reregister every single election cycle in there current voting district and track whether they vote or not by swiping the card when they vote. Or they can walk into any federal building and deliver their absentee ballot and swipe their card.


Track registered to vote vs voted electronically. Seems simple.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Rand Paul and other conservatives would disagree with you Jonnygun...

I am against the idea that American citizens should be forced to carry around a National Identification Card as a condition of citizenship. I worry that the Senate is working to consider a series of little-noticed provisions in comprehensive immigration reform that may provide a pathway to a national ID card for all individuals present in the United States — citizens and noncitizens. These draconian ideas would simply give government too much power.

Forcing Americans to carry around an identification card to affirmatively prove citizenship offends our basic concept of freedom. Wanting to avoid a “papers please” culture in our country is also why conservatives oppose federal universal gun background checks. We oppose such measures not because we don’t believe in common-sense rules or regulation — but because we are wary of giving the federal government this kind of centralized power over our daily lives.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/24/blocking-the-pathway-to-a-national-id/

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patriciae_gw(07)

I have never ever flagged a post. Never. I flagged Elvis's accusation that Chase is trying to learn how to vote illegally. I am aghast that she should say that and I am in awe that Chase took it as well as she did. This was so wrong that I cant even begin to express my dismay. Chase is such an asset for us here. I value her input so much and I respect her opinions more than I can say. Elvis does this sort of thing as some sort of joke I think but there are jokes that cant be made. This just wont do. Elvis you owe her an apology. You really do.

I also think Annie D made the best comment: Glass of water/ Tsunami Wonderful visual there.

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Jonnygun(zone 7)

I don't agree with the GOP on all things. The days of me caring what the feds knew about me ended 40 something years ago. Between the licensing and regulated crap I've delt with over the years I have no secrets. I just feel like lots of issues could be addressed at once.

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chase_gw

Thanks for your support guys but not up worry. I'm good . In fact I find their petty attacks affirmation they can't argue the facts..

It also annoys them I know as much as I do about American politics and civics...drives them nuts that I can argue the details....they have this notion that only Americans should care about what their President does. They have no idea of how he impacts the rest of the world. An indication of how small their view of the world is.

As I say I'm good (good with their attacks) ......I don't insult posters, I don't call people names, I call out hateful posters no matter their politics and I express my opinions being careful not to suggest what Americans should do in any situation ..........and it drives them nuts.......tee hee hee

Edited

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Ann

"It also annoys them I know as much as I do about American politics and civics...drives them nuts that I can argue the details....they have this notion that only Americans should care about what their President does. They have no idea of how he impacts the rest of the world. An indication of small there view of the world is.

As I say I'm good..I don't insult posters, I don't call people names, I call out hateful posters no matter their politics..and it drives them nuts...tee hee hee"

Oh my!

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elvis

I'm good..I don't insult posters, I don't call people names, I call out hateful posters no matter their politics..and it drives them nuts...tee hee hee

That's wonderful, good for you!

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queenmargo

Some are so full of themselves lol lol lol

The good news is they can't vote;)

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Ziemia(6a)

So, what proof do we have that there is a problem with fraudulent votes?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Elvis, you asked for sources earlier for carol's query: "So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?"

Here is a belated response.

----------------------

"As of October 2017, Gallup polling found that 31% of Americans identified as Democrat, 24% identified as Republican, and 42% as Independent.[3] Additionally, polling showed that 46% are either "Democrats or Democratic leaners" and 39% are either "Republicans or Republican leaners" when Independents are asked "do you lean more to the Democratic Party or the Republican Party?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_party_strength_in_U.S._states

------------------------------

Some simple math will show that if the voter turn-out, percentage-wise, is roughly equal in all categories, a larger number of Democrats will end up voting. So if a larger percentage of Democrats turn out, they will definitely have the advantage of a much larger numbers of voters.

Bernie Sanders probably overstated it when he claimed that “Democrats win when the voter turnout is high," but there is plenty of evidence showing that higher voting turn-out tends to favor the Democrats. Take the example of Wisconsin, for instance:

--------------------------

". . . When turnout spikes, Democrats win.

In 2018, according to The Washington Post, “Democrats outvoted Republicans by more than 4 million. . . . ”

The states with the highest turnouts saw Democrats scoring big wins in key contests. Take Wisconsin, a top-five turnout state, where 61.2 percent of the “voting eligible population” cast ballots. Despite years of efforts by Governor Scott Walker and his Republican allies to make it harder to vote—with restrictive “voter ID” legislation, limits on early voting, meddling with absentee voting, and changes in polling-place rules—Wisconsin experienced a turnout boost in 2018.

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel made the connection with its post-election headline: “The Scott Walker era of GOP dominance in Wisconsin ends with the election of Tony Evers amid massive midterm turnout.”

https://www.thenation.com/article/voter-turnout-scott-walker/

---------------------------------------------

Phrased as a "tendency" rather than an "absolute," Sander's claim has some evidence to support it, but it also depends on a number of other factors. Therefore, it would be better to claim that “Democrats [TEND] win to when the voter turnout is high[er]."

It should be noted that more than one Repub. official/lawmaker has been quoted as claiming that the new voting restrictions passed in their states will "guarantee" that Repubs. and not Democrats will win.

Here is an excerpt about the purpose of Repub. voting restrictions.

" From Georgia to Kansas to even New Hampshire, the GOP has settled on a path to victory: Prevent as many Democrats as they can from voting.

[. . .]

Aside from likely giving Republicans an undeserved boost in several key races, the drive to restrict voting has reached a scale that should raise serious questions about the democratic legitimacy of our elections. And alongside the extreme Republican gerrymander—currently the only reason why the party has even an outside shot at holding onto the House—it represents a massive structural obstacle to Democrats ever achieving the power their popular support deserves. In other words, Republicans can only win by rigging the game.

Georgia has grabbed many of the headlines. Secretary of State Brian Kemp reportedly put around 53,000 registrations—70 percent of them from African-Americans—on pending status because of minor discrepancies with the information on state records.

The difference could be as trivial as a misplaced hyphen or a missing middle initial. . . .

[. . .]

One of the strictest is North Dakota’s, which requires voters to show a residential mailing address. That could create problems for thousands of the state’s native Americans, many of whom live in reservations without mailing addresses, and who are key to Democrats’ already slim chances of holding onto a crucial Senate seat.

[. . .]

But the most brazen effort to stymie voters may have happened in majority-Hispanic Dodge City, Kansas, where local election officials moved the only polling place from downtown to the edge of the city, and more than a mile from the nearest bus stop. When the ACLU sent a letter of complaint, an election administrator forwarded it to state officials with the words “LOL.”

[. . .]

Put bluntly, the central question of politics in the Trump era is how long Republicans can undermine democracy effectively enough to maintain their hold on power. Success this year likely would embolden them to push even further, perhaps by shooting for the voter suppression holy grail: a national voter ID law, and a requirement that those registering to vote show documentary proof of citizenship. If they succeed at that, we could one day look back on this cycle as a relative golden age for voting rights."

https://www.thedailybeast.com/if-the-republicans-win-tuesday-the-reason-will-be-simple-they-cheated?ref=scroll

---------------------

Hope that helps clarify why Democrats want to promote voter turn-out and why Republicans want to suppress it.

Kate

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elvis

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation, kate. You certainly make a good case.

However, I think that carol's query: "So people are basically admitting that if more people vote, GOP loses?" was for the benefit of the masses reading here. IOW, it was constructed with an aim to trigger emotional response.

The idea of dong all the work you just did ^^^ would probably make most here swoon.

I really do appreciate your reasoned explanation of what you think carol meant, though.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Thank Kate. Yes, and there's plenty more. My state's GOP-led legislature is in the midst of trying to institute what amounts to a poll tax, in their efforts to stymie a constitutional amendment (4) that was voted for overwhelmingly. They have somewhat successfully stalled any meaningful nonpartisan redistricting as well - also voted for by Floridians years ago. I could go on.

And yes, there are any number of reported statements from GOP admitting that this is, and has been, their strategy for winning.

But by now I hope we all realize that these constant requests for proof of easily researched facts are apparent argumentative canards.

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

Voter ID is a speed limit for flying pigs.


republicans express frustration that everyone does not support such a logical law to regulate flying pigs. Democrats cannot see the use for paying for signage and enforcement for something that is not a problem, especially when there are real problems that need attention, and point out that even the republicans cannot find existence of the speeding flying pig problem they claim needs this law. republicans come back with, we should do it anyway. We need and want this, and you should, too.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

@ gyr_falcon - I think of it more as a type Trojan horse. The arguments in favor seem on the surface so sensible and logical(to some), yet when you drill down, they make no sense.

There was a mention above of having to show ID at the Doctor's office, or the airport, which conveniently overlooks the fact that there are many more people who never do such things, or haven't in many years.

And witness the judgmental, completely subjective comments about someone with no ID likely being a person who is unworthy or incapable of voting in any meaningful way.

And of course, the fact that in some places, it isn't just any ID that's accepted at polling places, but very specific ones, is also conveniently left out.

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chase_gw

What I think is a real hoot is that those who , without any facts at all to support it, believe voter fraud is a problem and one that Dems want to promote , also claim that States like California are where it happens the most ....HOOT!!!!

3 Million illegals vote for Clinton in a State that overwhelmingly voted for her anyway. If it wasn't for that Trump would have won California!!!!

Now lets talk about those less than 80K, over three States, that fraudulently voted for Trump.......oh no that could never be. Only Dems vote fraudulently.

Someone refresh me with which State had REAL voter fraud in the midterms and who was actually charged...which party was that again?

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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

The arguments in favor seem on the surface so sensible and logical(to some), yet when you drill down, they make no sense.


So true. And most voters are not sufficiently interested in politics to look below the veneer on these issues. On HT, they just are working the con.

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numbersjunkie

FEC chair calls on Trump to provide evidence of NH voter fraud

The chairwoman of the Federal Election Commission (FEC) is demanding that President Trump either provide evidence to support his claim that he would have won New Hampshire's electoral votes in 2016 if not for voter fraud, or cease mentioning the claim.

Chairwoman Ellen Weintraub, a Democrat, wrote in a letter to the president reported by CNN that Trump risks "undermining the faith" of the American electorate in the fairness of U.S. elections.

"Your voter-fraud allegations run the risk of undermining that faith," she wrote, according to CNN.

"To put in terms a former casino operator should understand," Weintraub added, "there comes a time when you need to lay your cards on the table or fold."

Weintraub's letter to the White House came a day after the president told supporters at a New Hampshire campaign rally that it wasn't their "fault" that he had lost the state in 2016, while insinuating that the state had been "taken" from his campaign.

Trump said "we should have won" New Hampshire, asserting, "It was taken away from us" and telling audience members that it was "not your fault."

Trump was edged out in 2016 in the state by former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (D), who won the state by a few thousand votes.

The president has long alleged that he would have won the national popular vote against Clinton in 2016 had it not been for millions of illegal votes, a baseless claim that led to the formation of a short-lived voter fraud commission headed by Vice President Pence and former Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach (R).

https://thehill-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/thehill.com/homenews/administration/457814-democratic-fec-chair-calls-on-trump-to-provide-evidence-of-nh-voter?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&amp#referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/457814-democratic-fec-chair-calls-on-trump-to-provide-evidence-of-nh-voter

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Ziemia(6a)

Stars!

numbersjunkie - thanks for pointing that out. With all if his other false claims the one about fraudulent voting was missed.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

also claim that States like California are where it happens the most ...


I love this allegation that assumes all the Republicans in California are brain dead . . . because there are no protests or lawsuits on account of voter fraud.


The CA GOP is not raising Hades because voter fraud is not happening.



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