If immigrants are not allowed in to pick

tony jelly

produce from the field, who ya gonna call?



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queenmargo

Nothing wrong with some HARD labor for a felon;)

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tony jelly

I think you missed the point.

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socks(10a)

Hold the presses! I agree with Margie!


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jerzeegirl(9b)

Nothing wrong with some HARD labor for a felon;)

There is plenty wrong with it.

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queenmargo


tony jelly

I think you missed the point.

Jelly, you seem to say that a lot. Why not be more specific in your questions? You like to call people out for not knowing what is in your head.

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chase_gw

Having prisoners work for their landlord , the government , is one thing...... renting them out as cheap for profit labour is an entirely different thing.

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lurker111

All prisoners should have to earn their keep. This would be a good thing.

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SoFLUSA

Prisoners doing work for private companies is slavery.

Cleaning roadsides, growing the prison food, etc is fine


But once you mix private companies with prison labor, you've got fascism.

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queenmargo

I have no problem with renting them out. The money can be put into rehabilitating them. Let them pay for their own education;)

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tony jelly

It seems chase can read, whereas others need clairvoyance.

It is about slavery, perhaps prisoners should not expect an easy life, but a system like this is corrupt and can lead to further corruption.

What money Margo?

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Stan Areted

Welfare recipients that are able bodied and sitting around on their cell phones should do it if they want a handout.

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Kathy

Many corps are already using prisoners for production. It not only hurts wages, job opportunities but encourages longer sentences for petty crimes. I once saw a list and it is scary how many corps are taking advantage of prisoners.

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lurker111

It isn't slavery if they are earning money to support them. The farmers aren't getting free labor.

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queenmargo


chase_gw

Having prisoners work for their landlord , the government , is one thing...... renting them out as cheap for profit labour is an entirely different thing.

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chase_gw

Workfare for able bodied adults is one thing. Using prisoners as forced cheap labour is another thing altogether. Now if the prisoners were paid directly I might look at it differently.

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chase_gw

Do you have a point Margie?

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queenmargo

Yes chase.

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queenmargo

No, the prisoners should not be paid directly, LOL

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queenmargo

Only a liberal would think that a FELON who did something ILLEGAL should be paid, LOL

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lurker111

Nathan misused the term "lease". There really isn't an argument here, just an abuse of the English language.

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chase_gw


"Only a liberal would think that a FELON who did something ILLEGAL should be paid, LOL"

You might want to check the law ....they already are, albeit minimally. However, I didn't think it was forced , except for work for the government like road cleanups or work in the prison. Not sure about that though...and no time to check further.

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lurker111

They need to earn that money.

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Ziemia(6a)

I honestly do not know my position on this. I generally disagree that this amounts to slavery. It is complicated.

Generally because I don't have the details on work conditions. Pretty certain they vary by state and even county. Around me, one county has deplorable conditions including providing inadequate drinking water.

With humane management, real world work expectations and opportunities would be a positive.

(I am totally opposed to the private prison system.)


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Ziemia(6a)

Well written article from former inmate - covers positives and concerns.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-bozelko-prison-labor-20171020-story.html

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LoneJack Zn 6a, KC

Does anyone know if the prisoners are forced into doing the field labor or is it voluntary?

Beats breaking big rocks into little rocks!

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tony jelly

Convict leasing was big after slavery ended and pretty much amounted to the same thing, when Nathan Rubin uses the word 'leasing' here he is alluding to this terminology.

Private prisons have farmed out cheap labor for a while now as Kathy says, but there is a new crisis because of anti-immigration policies and it is a crisis that could have been avoided.

This is a money making scheme but it is not the convicts that are making the profit.

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Ziemia(6a)

Haven't found a reference that connects this with private prisons in particular.

Private prisons are an abomination - everything they do is wrong.

There are prisoners and prisoner advocates who say real world work *can* be good.

And, there are situations when government prisons treat inmates inhumanely.

It's complicated.

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nopartyghost

Interesting. Just yesterday I heard on an NPR story that prisoners in Washington state are only paid 42 cents per hour for any jobs they hold while incarcerated. It's the maximum allowed by law. So if very low paid prisoners start doing the agricultural jobs done by immigrants, that some here have been screaming takes jobs away from citizens that should have the jobs, what do you think will happen? Corporation running the program will get wealthier, prisoners will be used more & citizens still won't have these great jobs. Wonderful idea!

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elvis

I once saw a list and it is scary how many corps are taking advantage of prisoners.

Please share the list, Kathy.

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tony jelly

The opening page when you search Google offers this

They include: Abbott Laboratories, Autozone, Bank of America, Bayer, Cargill, Caterpillar, Chevron, Costco, John Deere, Eli Lilly, GlaxoSmithKline, International Paper, Johnson & Johnson, Sears, Koch Industries, Mary Kay, Merck, Motorola, Pfizer, ConAgra Foods, Starbucks, United Airlines, UPS, Verizon, Wendy's

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elvis

Let's start with the OP title. Is the topic "all immigrants" or "unauthorized persons" present in the US? Pick one.

There's a huge difference, and being specific on this issue is absolutely necessary in order to have a discussion. Otherwise, we're going to have huge misunderstandings.

Or is this the whole purpose of this thread?

The OP title is: If immigrants are not allowed in to pick

What exactly does the OP mean?

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LoneJack Zn 6a, KC

The article that Ziemia posted said that the companies using the prisoner labor have to pay the prison minimum wage but the prisoner only gets some fraction of that. The rest goes towards the cost of incarceration.

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Ann

I don't know the legalities, but the concept is an excellent one. I think it could certainly be structured into a win win for all. If you think about it, it might be the perfect first step toward a prisoner re-entering the workforce and contributing to society as a productive worker.

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SoFLUSA


In reference to Ziemia's link:

Chandra Bozelko worked in a prison kitchen. That's not the same thing as working on a private farm.

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Ziemia(6a)

Oh, I know, SoFLUSA

I've been looking for more info on this and haven't found anything else.

Maybe later today more info will appear.

It's a huge topic.

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tony jelly


The title of the thread is

If immigrants are not allowed in to pick


produce from the field, who ya gonna call?

the first half was in the title box and lead into the second part that was in the OP.

Cookies and warm milk will be served after children have understood this,

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adoptedbyhounds

"Many corps are already using prisoners for production."

Which corporations are using prisoners for production?

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Joaniepoanie


Stan Areted

Welfare recipients that are able bodied and sitting around on their cell phones should do it if they want a handout.

-------

Have a source for this claim?

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maifleur01

When as was common in parts of the south to be sentenced to a year or more for things like crossing the center line with part of your tire makes it slavery. When I was in Florida after Wilma one of the people was from the Carolinas and saw someone do this. They were surprised that the person was not arrested because it was good income for the county. If you are old enough you have probably heard of warnings about driving through Alabama, Georgia to go to Florida and what could happen to you. This sounds like an extension of those good old times.


Here the city/country work farm was shut down because of unsafe working conditions.

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Stan Areted

Cool Hand Luke.

When prison was prison.

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Kathy

Prisoners are some of the most exploited workers in the country. There are very few safety regulations and no worker’s compensation for injury on the job. While in prison, [prisoners] try to earn money to support their families, themselves and pay victim restitution yet these wages prevent them from that.”

https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/corporations-and-governments-collude-in-prison-slavery-racket/

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queenmargo

Margiev,

You often type comments that strike me as trite, intentionally insincere, uncooperative and just unpleasant (nasty) for the sake of it. Is it your intention to habitually appear this way? I urge you to please offer more congenial, pleasantly considered and substantive comments.

I guess you must miss all the other trite, intentionally insincere , uncooperative and just unpleasant (nasty) for the sake of it comments written by the left. You choose to select me to try and school with your constructive criticism. When I see you doing the same to others that are not on the right, I will take your offer more serious.

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tony jelly

Once again the continuity is cut up by flagging, but I think there is enough here to see what the game is, and I mean game.

What was Cool Hand Luke About? Luke refused to accept the way it was then where a petty criminal, like him, could get two years hard labor so he rebelled against it. So the movie was basically in line with the objections on offer here, thanks for the reminder Stan, well done.

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Stan Areted

That was the law.

Luke should have made better decisions.


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patriciae_gw(07)

As Maifleur said, this was done in the south and the upshot was arresting blacks for being alive and then selling their labor. The for profit prison industry already flourishes because they have guaranteed occupancy contracts, so why not fill them. Our country is mad for putting people in prison and the cost is about $30,000+ per year. People are put in prison for breaking the law and for that they lose their freedom. So now you want them to have to work to keep themselves there? We pass laws, so if we need more labor we just make more things illegal. Can you see where this leads?

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socalnolympia

Prisoner forced labor is one of the things I don't like about Conservatives (maybe not all Conservatives, but coming from that base).

Maybe it's appropriate in some cases, but to say that all persons in prison should automatically do forced labor is a apathetic cruel oversimplification.

Reminds one too much of oppression and slave-like conditions.

I happen to have something wrong with me (hasn't been able to be diagnosed yet) that makes it difficult for me to work for more than short periods, limited mental energy to move my body. (Hardy to fully explain here) So maybe I am just projecting my rare personal situation onto other people.

Anyway, it looks like the South is going back to old policies, like back in the day when they had chain gangs. The South long had an addiction to cheap labor.

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tony jelly

This is a poll: when you watched Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke who did you identify with Luke or the mean guy on the with the gun?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

tony, what we got ourselves here is failure to communicate.

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Tilly Teabag


margievank

“Margiev,

You often type comments that strike me as trite, intentionally insincere, uncooperative and just unpleasant (nasty) for the sake of it. Is it your intention to habitually appear this way? I urge you to please offer more congenial, pleasantly considered and substantive comments.

I guess you must miss all the other trite, intentionally insincere , uncooperative and just unpleasant (nasty) for the sake of it comments written by the left. You choose to select me to try and school with your constructive criticism. When I see you doing the same to others that are not on the right, I will take your offer more serious.”

margo can you please write who said things, for clarity.

Whoever wrote that, don’t pick on Margo please.

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Kathy

American slavery was technically abolished in 1865, but a loophole in the 13th Amendment has allowed it to continue “as a punishment for crimes” well into the 21st century. Not surprisingly, corporations have lobbied for a broader and broader definition of “crime” in the last 150 years. As a result, there are more (mostly dark-skinned) people performing mandatory, essentially unpaid, hard labor in America today than there were in 1830.

With 5 percent of the world’s population and 25 percent of the world’s prison population, the United States has the largest incarcerated population in the world. No other society in history has imprisoned more of its own citizens. There are half a million more prisoners in the U.S. than in China, which has five times our population. Approximately 1 in 100 adults in America were incarcerated in 2014. Out of an adult population of 245 million that year, there were2.4 million people in prison, jail or some form of detention center.

The vast majority – 86 percent – of prisoners have been locked up for non-violent, victimless crimes, many of them drug-related.


Elvis, here’s a list

https://www.cagedbirdmagazine.com/single-post/2017/03/28/50-Companies-Supporting-Modern-American-Slavery

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Tilly Teabag

Yes, go there, PM. Good luck.

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JodiK

Some good news... beginning January 1st of the coming year, IL allows for recreational marijuana use (with certain caveats), and will be revisiting hundreds of thousands of cases where prisoners convicted of possession without violence attached will be exonerated.

So, that will clear out some room in prisons...

~~~

But... prisoners are being used for many jobs, some that are dangerous. This is slavery. We should not put up with it. It needs to change.

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maifleur01

It was not just the blacks that were targeted for arrests for minor crimes. It was also poorer whites. The way I found out about it one of the men that worked with my father was talking about being arrested and what the penalty would have been.

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queenmargo

But... prisoners are being used for many jobs, some that are dangerous. This is slavery. We should not put up with it. It needs to change.

They should think about this stuff before they commit a crime. If someone broke into your home, robbed you, raped you, beat you, would you worry about him doing a dangerous job?

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queenmargo

Liberals must know a lot of prisoners.

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socalnolympia

I'd be more concerned about persons who commit trivial offenses and drastic overpunishment, as well as burden of evidence. For some of these drug crimes the only evidence is they found drugs somewhere, and by implication it is tied to a specific person. That shouldn't warrant someone being on a chain gang for years and years.

It's also a very different thing to put someone on a chain gang for 3 months, versus making them do it for 10 years. The first is punishment, the last is slavery. Unfortunately I'm not sure if I can trust proponents of this to tell the difference.

Yes, there are some fraudsters, who stole all the life savings of elderly old women, who deserve to go to a chain gang, but I don't think we can automatically extend this to all criminals.

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Kathy

Petty drug charges can amount to a long time in prison if one doesn’t have a good lawyer. It is not always criminals who rape and rob who get the long sentences, especially if they come from a “good family”.

The vast majority – 86 percent – of prisoners have been locked up for non-violent, victimless crimes, many of them drug-related.


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rob333 (zone 7a)

So at what point has a felon paid their dues to society margo? Must they pay the price their entire lives? And be subjected to ____________ while in prison? Isn't being in prison and paying fines the punishment? Why should they have to have multiple punishments?

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tony jelly

Crime and Punishment, by Fyodor Dostoevsky. A Hot Topics review:

They should think about this stuff before they commit a crime. If someone broke into your home, robbed you, raped you, beat you, would you worry about him doing a dangerous job?

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Jess

Nothing wrong with some HARD labor for a felon;)

That's called slavery, and, unfortunately, it's allowed by the Constitution

The Thirteenth Amendment

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

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Jess

They should think about this stuff before they commit a crime.

I wonder what Trump thinks about before he commits a crime?

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elvis

While in prison, [prisoners] try to earn money to support their families, themselves and pay victim restitution yet these wages prevent them from that.”

Um, Kathy. It's prison. You know, that place where one goes to be punished for being convicted of crime.

Oh, and thanks for the link.

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mrskjun(9)

Many prisoners have work release. They are not forced to take these jobs. The jobs are offered to them. They receive a percentage of their earnings. So my question would be, are these prisoners forced to do this work, or is this work offered to them as part of work release? Rarely will a prisoner turn down work release.

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Kathy

Elvis, they are being punished by being in prison.

According to the report, the average hourly wage for regular state prison jobs was $0.14 on the low end and $0.63 on the high end.

This rate can amount to less than $5 total earned per day. Some state prison work programs don’t pay anything at all.


Prisons are making a profit. Manufacturers are using them for cheap labor. The government is footing the bill. The taxpayers are in essence subsidizing the companies for their manufacturing costs. It’s a backdoor subsidy for Corps and private prisons.

Doesnt it bother Republicans that they are being used to support corporations. Not only the prisoners but the taxpaying public.

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tony jelly

that place where one goes to be punished for being convicted of a crime.

Thereby hangs a tale, I corrected 'crime' to read 'a crime' otherwise the burden is insurmountable, but are we to assume from the elvis POV that there is no purpose to justice other than punishment? Certainly, that judges view on teenagers videoed rape figures into this argument. Or maybe she means what she wrote, a convict is to pay for all crime regardless of any individual involvement?

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mrskjun(9)
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elvis

Tony, I worked in the district attorney's office for some time. We may have different concepts of crime, culpability, punishment, restitution, victim rights. etc. It's not like TV.

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Kathy

Work release programs are different than keeping the prisoners inside the prison for labor.

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socalnolympia

" Doesnt it bother Republicans that they are being used to support corporations. Not only the prisoners but the taxpaying public. "

No it doesn't, because the prisoners are sold off to the highest bidder. The money goes to the state. (Though of course corporations make profit on it too)

It's not costing taxpayers anything extra it would not otherwise be costing them.

Not saying I agree with this, but I just disagree with your specific argument here. (I know, pretty rare that that happens)

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Jess

It's still going on

How Southern whites found replacements for their emancipated slaves in the prison system..

In August, an organization called the Incarcerated Workers Organizing Committee announced that prisoners in at least 17 states had pledged to stage a strike to protest prison conditions. It is unclear how many inmates actually took part in the 19-day strike, but organizers said “thousands“ refused to work, staged sit-ins, and turned away meals to demand “an immediate end to prison slavery.” Nationwide, inmates’ labor is essential to running prisons. They cook, clean, do laundry, cut hair, and fulfill numerous administrative tasks for cents on the dollar, if anything, in hourly pay. Prisoners have been used to package Starbucks coffee and make lingerie. In California, inmates volunteer to fight the state’s wildfires for just $1 an hour plus $2 per day.

The link between prison labor and slavery is not merely rhetorical. At the end of the Civil War, the 13th amendment abolished slavery “except as a punishment for a crime.” This opened the door for more than a century of forced labor that was in many ways identical to, and in some ways worse than, slavery. The following is an excerpt from my new book, American Prison: A Reporter’s Undercover Journey Into the Business of Punishment. The book details my time working undercover as a prison guard in a for-profit prison in Louisiana. It also traces the ways in which our prison system evolved out of the attempt of Southern businessmen to keep slavery alive.

A few years after the Civil War ended, Samuel Lawrence James bought a plantation on a sleepy bend of the Mississippi River in Louisiana’s West Feliciana Parish. It was known as Angola, named for the country of origin of many of the people who were once enslaved there. Before the war, it produced 3,100 bales of cotton a year, an amount few Southern plantations could rival. For most planters, those days seemed to be over. Without slaves, it was impossible to reach those levels of production.

But James was optimistic. Slavery may have been gone, but something like it was already beginning to come back in other states. While antebellum convicts were mostly white, 7 out of 10 prisoners were now black. In Mississippi, “Cotton King” Edmund Richardson convinced the state to lease him its convicts. He wanted to rebuild the cotton empire he’d lost during the war, and, with its penitentiary burned to ashes, the state needed somewhere to send its prisoners. The state agreed to pay him $18,000 per year for their maintenance, and he could keep the profits derived from their labor. With the help of convict labor, he would become the most powerful cotton planter in the world, producing more than 12,000 bales on 50 plantations per year. Georgia, whose penitentiary had been destroyed by Gen. Sherman, was leasing its convicts to a railroad builder. Alabama had leased its convicts to a dummy firm that sublet them for forced labor in mines and railroad-construction camps throughout the state.

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catspat(aka)

Liberals must know a lot of prisoners.

Since roughly 1 in 20 people in the U.S. have been in prison for at least 6 months at some point in their lives, odds are that you know, or will meet, someone who has been, whether you know it or not. So what?

My general impression is that the righties would all be rooting for Inspector Javert while watching Les Misérables. We all know how he ended.



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Kathy

SoCal. It seems that when prisoners work for private companies in the prison they are paid better wages but as much as 80% of their wages are used up by fees they are charged. It wouldn’t go to the state if it is a private prison.

I don’t have a problem with prisoners producing items for the state or working in the prison, cooking, cleaning and maintenance. I do have a problem with corporations using prisoners for cheap labor while we foot the bill for their care and they reap the profits. Private prisons would benefit from a larger portion of incarcerated people and have reason to lobby lawmakers for stronger laws and more jail time for minor reasons.



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Ziemia(6a)

Agree, Kathy.

It seems little background information has been found to share here. I found next to nothing.

This recent comment from Kjun has several good observations and questions:


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Kathy

This article clarifies the types of work prisoners do.

What kinds of work do incarcerated people do?

Not everyone works in prison. Facilities face budget limitations and sometimes there is just not enough work to go around. But generally, correctional facilities assign incarcerated people to work as close to a regular day as possible. These work assignments fall into four broad categories, the first of which is by far the most common:

  1. Regular prison jobs. These are directed by the Department of Corrections and support the prison facility. This category includes custodial, maintenance, laundry, grounds keeping, food service, and many other types of work. Sometimes called “facility,” “prison,” or “institutional support” jobs, these are the most common prison jobs.
  2. Jobs in state-owned businesses. Often called “Correctional Industries,” these businesses produce goods and provide services that are sold to government agencies. Correctional agencies and the businesses coordinate to operate these “shops,” and the revenues they generate help fund these positions. Agency-operated industries employ about 6% of people incarcerated in prisons.
  3. Jobs outside the facility. Work release programs, work camps, and community work centers provide services for public or nonprofit agencies. These programs are directed by the Department of Corrections, but sometimes community employers pay incarcerated workers’ wages. These jobs are typically reserved for people considered lower security risks, and/or those preparing to be released.
  4. Jobs in private businesses. A small number of incarcerated people work for businesses that contract with correctional agencies through the PIE program. This program allows private companies to operate within correctional facilities and provide job training and supervision. Companies must pay local “prevailing wages” for these jobs, but workers may only end up with a small portion of these wages; up to 80% of these earnings can be deducted for various fees.


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artemis_ma

Stan: Welfare recipients that are able bodied and sitting around on their cell phones should do it if they want a handout.

Considering that the OP was talking about field-picking, who pays to transport those welfare recipients to the farm regions where they are going to be picking, if they live like many of them do, in inner cities?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

And who pays to train people to do field work who have no background in agriculture labour?

Who pays to provide the extra management needed to oversee a complete crew of green workers?

Who pays more for their food when food waste is increased due to an inexperienced workforce not handling the crop correctly.

Who pays the increased insurance premiums when farmers need to make more claims because their crops or equipment is destroyed by inexperienced labourers?

As an example, we had to cull around 25% of one picking of a specific crop recently because the newly hired teens did it wrong and the warehouse claimed 33%of the last order. That means we get paid nothing for the portion that was claimed. We still have to pay the workers for their hours of labour, plus we now have to pay someone to go through everything they've harvested since then, and pay someone to re-train them and closely monitor them. That means that the people paid to do the sorting/QC and the overseeing are not available to do other necessary work. That's part of the learning process and they will get it, but all those added costs of hiring documented workers have to be made up somewhere. Whether we pass that cost on to our customers or eat it ourselves (in our case, it's the latter) someone loses out big time. And if they never get it we face a situation of having to assign them different tasks while workers who are qualified to do more intricate jobs are tasked with harvest or worst case scenario let them go. Either way we are left short-handed where we need labour.

Once again I feel compelled to reiterate that farm labour is *not* unskilled work and you really can't just get anyone off the street to come in and do it. Some have an affinity for it and some don't. Some are able to be trained to it and some aren't.

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Ziemia(6a)

Who are the able-bodied unemployed? (Includes knowing how long they've been unemployed.)

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ubro(2a)

Unskilled is a bad choice of words. I think giving those prisoners who are near the end of their prison term or the ones incarcerated for minor crimes, the opportunity to choose to work for pay at these farms is not a bad idea. Forcing them to work and allowing the companies to obtain free or cheap labour is slavery.

We will have these people back into society at one point or another and they will be living among us. IMO it is in our best interest to rehabilitate as much as we can, and is money well spent.

Harper did the worst thing he could to our prison system he dismantled the prison farms. Thankfully the present liberal govt. is beginning to reinstate them.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/kingston-canada-prison-farm-budget-1.4555180

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I agree with you on all counts ubro.

And any incarcerated person who does work outside the prison walls (for example, on a farm) should be able to put that work on their resume with no asterisk. That might currently be possible, I haven't researched it.

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