1 MILLION have final removal orders

Carro

ICE needs to do their job and Trump better let them. These illegals have had their due process and need to go home. Congress acting on asylum laws needs to happen, but it shouldn't hold up our laws or processes already in place.




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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Older article but I would imagine the numbers are still similar.

https://fortune.com/2017/09/08/trump-undocumented-immigrants-daca/

I found this paragraph fascinating:

"The more complex and likely scenario occurs if citizens and legal immigrants are not willing to accept positions at the current wage rate. There would be upward pressure on companies to boost wages in order to make these jobs more attractive to workers. Citizens and legal immigrants may be attracted to these positions at a higher wage, but these jobs would likely be even more enticing to undocumented immigrants who find the reward of even higher pay worth the risk of deportation; just as America’s war on drugs has attracted more people into drug trade and may have increased total drug supply as a result. The one certainty under this scenario is the consumers who buy goods and services in these industries will see the price they pay increase due to higher wage rates."

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chase_gw

So..have the orders been given?

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socalnolympia

90% of them aren't going on their own and will need a little "help"

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chase_gw

So.. have the orders been given?

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Ann Gale

Let's see. 1,000,000/328,000,000 = .3% of our population. Point three percent. .003 My goodness, how can we handle it?

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socalnolympia

compounded every year, year after year, that adds up.

And it also comprises a larger percentage, if we're not factoring in the demographic that is old. (i.e. it might only be X percent of the total population, but it's twice that for the population under 50 )

Plus, a big chunk of country's population is already illegal aliens and their children.

So all three of those factors combined together, I think those small percentages people point to are misleading.

I did some rough calculations, and at a 1.5% immigration rate, with a median immigrant age 20 years younger than the population as a whole, and fertility rates 40% higher, it would only take 28 years before the majority of the babies in the society were born from foreigners.

Probably the effects would be even more pronounced because much of this will be much more concentrated into certain higher population areas.


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Carro

We can handle deporting them.

No order yet afaik.

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Carro

Under Obama, ICE was doing its job and the Left was silent. Now suddenly it's remarkable.

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Ann Gale

Any sources for your musings socal?

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chase_gw

Actually the left wasn't silent..but have at it. So..has Trump given the orders yet........This is July 8th which is after the 4th. Maybe tomorrow


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Kathy

Under Obama the left was silent. Do you have a source? I remember a lot of pushback and he wasn’t happy. He advocated for immigration reform but the Republicans were on strike.

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socalnolympia

" Under Obama, ICE was doing its job and the Left was silent. Now suddenly it's remarkable. "

Under Obama, we didn't have to keep migrants in detention facilities, they were deported expediently.

There's a difference between holding a million people in a holding cell for a day versus holding a million people in holding cells for a year. That's why things are getting clogged up.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Under President Obama the left was quite vociferous each and every time he traveled to Los Angeles. Demonstrations in support of immigrant rights / against deportations were held outside the hotels where he was staying, and along travel routes when going from one event to the next, and near the events as well.

If Los Angeles, particularly West Los Angeles, was going to be an ATM for the president and Democrats, they were going to have to endure complaints as they punched their PINs.

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Carro


socalnolympia

" Under Obama, ICE was doing its job and the Left was silent. Now suddenly it's remarkable. "

Under Obama, we didn't have to keep migrants in detention facilities, they were deported expediently.

There's a difference between holding a million people in a holding cell for a day versus holding a million people in holding cells for a year. That's why things are getting clogged up.

This is it, exactly. The demographic has changed, but still, Obama was stern in his warning, "Do not bring your children to our border".

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Ziemia(6a)

They were deported after experiencing due process.

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socalnolympia

Whatever "due process" means.

They come by the tens of thousands to this nation's borders, demanding asylum, and then the country has to take them in and can't send them back until they have "due process", clogging up the immigration courts?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Correct socalnolympia.

Rule of law.

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socalnolympia

It was a bad law.

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Ann Gale

Oh Ziemia, don't try to distract from the hyperbole and supposition and unsubstantiated random opinions with your Ivy League facts.

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Carro

Obama turned people around at the border. No process involved.

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Ann Gale

It was a bad law? Can I declare "BAD LAW" and speed and ignore laws? Cool!

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socalnolympia

You shouldn't be surprised at the response to it.

If you're insisting that the country has to automatically take in anyone and everyone, from other parts of the world, no initial questions asked, why wouldn't you think that might cause a problem?

Overcrowded unpleasant facilities are the result.

These facilities are too overcrowded for adults to be able to be housed with children, it would create some safety issues in those conditions, since the people are practically being wholesale warehoused.

Same reason they can't put men together women. Since current law automatically gives automatic citizenship to babies born of US soil, and the court cases can often drag on for a year, they can't be taking any chances of a pregnancy taking place. (not to mention they don't have the facilities for any more babies to be birthed or taken special care of)

So the families have to be separated. Because of the laws on the books, because of current practicalities.

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socalnolympia

Also just to point out, the 90% who do not self-deport ruin it for everyone else.

The authorities tried releasing asylum seekers with children temporarily into U.S. society while they were waiting, and look what happened.

If you have a problem, blame the migrants themselves.

If they don't keep them in these facilities, they'll just disappear and never show up for their court hearings. Of course they're welcome to wait it out in Mexico while they're waiting.

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Ann Gale

Just to be clear. If you declare something a "bad law", it is okay to ignore it? It's an easy yes or no answer.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

socalnolympia did you get a chance to listen to the program I linked to earlier today?

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-july-8-2019-1.5203506

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socalnolympia

Not all laws are intended to be followed to the letter when there's something going wrong, but it's up to the courts.

When you have a problematic detail in a law, and courts who insist on upholding it, then things can sometimes come to an impasse. That's what's happening here, you have a border crisis.

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Kathy

SoCal, that hasn’t been true. Most of them do show up for their hearings. I am always asked for a source but I don’t see the naysayers on the right asking you for a source, so I will ask where you read most don’t show up for their hearing.

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Carro

Of course they're welcome to wait it out in Mexico while they're waiting.

Except Democrats are trafficking them back across the border.

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Kathy

Carro, the ones turned around at the border by Obama were processed efficiently.

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socalnolympia

The current law does not allow them to be processed efficiently, in this situation.

There is simply not the facilities or the manpower.

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Kathy

Trump needs to fix that. It was working better before he took office. In fact immigration was at a low point.

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socalnolympia

Then the economy started picking up again.

And activists began going to Latin American countries organizing migrant caravans North, and telling them how to say the right things to trick authorities into granting them asylum.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

socalnolympia

4 minutes ago

Not all laws are intended to be followed to the letter when there's something going wrong, but it's up to the courts.

-------

Lol yes they are. Every law is intended to be followed to the letter and in spirit.

No doubt some could use clarification (often the job of the judiciary), and some could use abolition, and some could use better enforcement.

But they are all intended to be followed.

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Kathy

The economy has been getting better since 2008 and the immigration was lower in 2017 than previous years. What changed was Trump wanted a wall. He needed a crisis to bolster that. He enacted Zero-tolerance and created a crisis.

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Ann Gale

Thanks for calling that out miss lindsey. I was so flabbergasted by that post that I was rendered speechless.

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socalnolympia

" Every law is intended to be followed to the letter and in spirit. "

Contrary to popular belief, that's not completely true. Laws can have unintended consequences that those who passed the law did not foresee.

Anyway, it's amazing how duplicitous those on the Left are about this.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Ok socalnolympia, cite a source. Cite a source that gives a credible legal opinion that not all laws are intended to be followed to the letter.

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socalnolympia

I'm not going to bother, it's another complicated topic.

It should be obvious if you think about it though. Imagine if the law was administered by cold purely logical supercomputers. There'd be all sorts of blatant injustice, because the law itself is not perfect.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

No it's not.

ETA I see you edited your post after I replied. My answer was in reply to your assertion that "it's complicated." It's not. It's simple. You and I and everyone else is required to follow the letter and spirit of the law.

Now to answer your edit: simply because bad laws exist, or because some laws need to be better worded, or because some laws need to be better enforced does not mean you or I are absolved from obeying them. We still have to. Even the imperfect ones. Sorry kiddo, life's not fair.

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Kathy

Trump is the most lawless President in recent history. He thinks, as did Nixon, he is above the law. It is no wonder his followers think the same.

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socalnolympia

So ironic you are saying that since you support illegal immigration.

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Carro


socalnolympia

So ironic the Left is saying that since they support illegal immigration.

Yeah, it doesn't follow. There are Democrats defying our agreement with Mexico and bringing illegals back into our country.

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Kathy

I don’t support illegal immigration. I support fair and humanitarian adherence to the laws for processing immigrants.

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socalnolympia

It's not fair for otherwise would-be illegal migrants to pretend to be asylum seekers and demand accommodation.

It's no coincidence that the number of asylum seekers suddenly shot up at the same time the amount of illegal immigration went down.

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Ziemia(6a)

It's not a law. It's the US Constitution.

socalnolympia: "It was a bad law."

& "I'm not going to bother, it's another complicated topic."

This, taken with the view that following laws is optional - explains a lot.

I am truly glad to now know this is a view among some Trump supporters.

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Kathy

Who decides if they are legal asylum seekers or not? Processors. That’s the point.

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socalnolympia

" It's not a law. It's the US Constitution. "

You're saying foreigners demanding to enter from another country, have all the same rights as US citizens, even the right to stay for an extended period of time in the country?

That's a very questionable interpretation of the Constitution.

If they were being held against their will, then yes, I would say they should be entitled to due process, but we are talking about people who are free to go back to the other side of the border that they entered from.

No evidence that their lives or freedom are in imminent danger.

Only the Left would claim that due process applies to foreigners being given free things.

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Ann Gale

Everyone has a right to have an opinion. You don't have the right to manufacture facts out of thin air to support it.

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socalnolympia

Which facts are manufactured?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Any "facts", numbers, data that you make up for dramatic effect are manufactured.

Any claim that you make that you won't back up with some type of evidence beyond "just think about it for a while, it will make sense" is assumed to be manufactured.

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socalnolympia

The "90%" had a link attached, if you clicked on it.

The issue about things not always being run based on strict laws is too complicated to get into without derailing the discussion. Courts bend laws all the time. And most people don't realize the laws in existence theoretically could legally allow people who were convicted of even minor crimes to spend life in prison, due to the overlapping nature of multiple laws. Or obscure laws can be construed in ridiculous ways, in certain situations.

The point is, if a certain law is causing innocent children to suffer, it might be appropriate for a court to temporarily suspend its enforcement.

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Ziemia(6a)

"Only the Left would claim that due process applies to foreigners being given free things."

No. Yale Law School is not generally seen as Left. My second link had Yale as a source.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

It didn't when I first saw the post.

Having clicked on it, I have no idea what it says. The author of the article makes an assertion that isn't backed up by the quote that is used to defend it.

But I appreciate the effort.

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socalnolympia

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Because neither of us here is really willing to spend all the time and do the research to back up all their claims. That's pretty typical in an online debate. I'm not getting paid by the Russians to debate with you.

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Ziemia(6a)

I backed up mine.

????

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socalnolympia

"Our best estimate is that legal immigrants accounted for 12.4 percent (494,000) of all births, and illegal immigrants accounted for 7.5 percent"

( source here )

Obviously higher in some areas than others, for example Hispanics make up over 50 percent of the births in California.

An article titled "Majority of Babies Born in California are Latino, UCLA Study Finds" appears on a Google search, but the link to the article no longer works.

" Latinos make up the majority of students in California "

( mention in NYT article here )

" In 2017, 27% of California's population was foreign born "

(source here )

Latino Children: A Majority Are U.S.-Born Offspring of Immigrants


It does get more complicated, because many of them entered and had children as illegal immigrants, and then managed to gain legal resident status later.


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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I don't make claims that I can't back up.

Before I make a claim, I gather the evidence I need to support it. And I post it with the claim so that anyone who is interested can check out what I'm referring to.

If you're not willing to give any evidence for the claims you make, why are you bothering to participate in this forum? The high level of intelligence and willingness to research shown by most of the posters here is precisely what makes this forum different from others I've been on and abandoned.

Even when I disagree with the interpretation of the information being presented, it is nevertheless an interpretation based on supposedly factual information.

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Ann Gale

I did share a statistic. The 1,000,000 number from the original post is only .3% of our total population. Can you dispute that with a source?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

When I follow the link about Latino babies this is what comes up.


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socalnolympia

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/05/17/explaining-why-minority-births-now-outnumber-white-births/

Not the most relevant article, but gives a little bit of insight.

You'll have to do your own basic estimates and math from different sources to arrive at your own statistics.

The point is there is a big portion of the country's population who have not fully assimilated into the culture yet.

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Ann Gale

hmmm.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Yep. I'm done.

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Ann Gale

So, this declaration with no source, "Plus, a big chunk of country's population is already illegal aliens and their children."

Is supported by this declaration with no source, "It's obvious if you go to some states like California".

And is supported by this declaration with no source, "many of them entered and had children as illegal immigrants, and then managed to gain legal resident status later."

This illogical way of supporting your opinion is exactly what I mean when I commented about making up facts out of thin air. You can't verify an opinion with manufactured facts.


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Ann

Yup Carro! These 1 million people need to be deported. ICE has a lot of work to do and I (and the law) fully support every single one of these deportations.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Best estimates of the undocumented population of California is c. 2.5 million out of a population of 39.5 million.

https://www.ppic.org/publication/undocumented-immigrants-in-california/

So the claim that a big chunk of the country’s population is already undocumented residents is untrue when you consider that California is home to the largest number of undocumented immigrants in the country.


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bleusblue2

socalnolympia

Whatever "due process" means.

They come by the tens of thousands to this nation's borders, demanding asylum, and then the country has to take them in and can't send them back until they have "due process", clogging up the immigration courts?

~~~

yes, "due process" -- such a nuisance isn't it?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Considering that California is a border state with a large agricultural sector, a larger number of undocumented workers/residents is not surprising.

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Ann

"So..have the orders been given? "

I think it would certainly be most effective if no one knew that answer, don't you? Maybe it can happen as quietly as it did when Obama did it. It's in everyone's best interest (for purposes of everyone's safety) for it to not be a big publicly advertised event IMO.

Does Canada announce its deportations to the media and citizens in Canada and to the media and citizens in the U.S.?

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Ann

It is a huge shame that the immigration courts are clogged up with 90% invalid asylum claims. That really makes it hard (and a long delayed process) for those with valid claims.

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Carro

Ann, it would definitely be better if ICE could just do their job without the wailing and gnashing of teeth! However, we know the media will be jumping for joy once they get to report on deportations, because it means their ratings might finally come out of the toilet.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"I think it would certainly be most effective if no one knew that answer, don't you? Maybe it can happen as quietly as it did when Obama did it. It's in everyone's best interest (for purposes of everyone's safety) for it to not be a big publicly advertised event IMO."

Tell that to your boy Donald lol.

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Ann

Oh yeah, Carro. I'm sure the media is taking guesses about where deportations will occur and camping out like vultures. Even more so because Trump is president!

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Ann

Lindsey, I don't have a boy named Donald:)

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steve2416

I think it should be highly entertaining when ICE starts trying to deport a million people. Talk about a logistical nightmare. Worse than herding cats if they have to transport them any real distance and I don't think they'll be able to fly that many. If they can't hire enough officers for the border how can they possibly hire enough to escort buses. Every rest stop for food or bathroom breaks will have to be closely monitored and there will always be people like me that think it is wrong and will favor the immigrants!

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Carro

Somehow ICE managed to do their job under Obama. I think they'll handle their task just fine.

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chase_gw

"Does Canada announce its deportations to the media and citizens in Canada and to the media and citizens in the U.S.?"

Of course not...but Trump did, twice now...........so has the order been given?

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Kathy

I wonder how many agree Trump properties should have been held responsible for breaking the law by hiring undocumented Immigrants. Or does the law not apply to Trump?

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Ziemia(6a)

"It is a huge shame that the immigration courts are clogged up..."

Aggravated by Sen McConnell. He refused to allow additional resources designed ti reduce the backlog.

The backlog was growing. It has been growing.

GOP leadership refused to increase resources to stop the growing backlog.

So the backlog has continued to grow.

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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

"When you have a problematic detail in a law, and courts who insist on upholding it, then things can sometimes come to an impasse..."

Then Congress should pass another law to fix that "problematic detail." Until the legislative branch does that, the law needs to be followed or one should expect to suffer the consequences. It seems some think a person should not have to take responsibility for their illegal actions when they disregard a "bad law."

I cannot believe anyone would think otherwise and I am a left wing liberal. Interesting that some conservatives think they should be permitted to ignore laws they think are "bad."

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elvis

Kathy

I wonder how many agree Trump properties should have been held responsible for breaking the law by hiring undocumented Immigrants.

Well, yes. All employers and employees involved should be held responsible. I'm sure you agree.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Rereading some of the above comments re California demographics: Foreign born =/= undocumented.

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socalnolympia

There is a correlation, but it's obviously not 1 to 1

It's difficult to find exact statistics, so sometimes you have to find related statistics and extrapolate, do some basic estimation

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

There have been studies, and best estimates are 2.5 million undocumented persons in California — see my link in an early comment — and CA has the largest population of undocumented persons in the US.

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socalnolympia

My estimation would be just over 5 million undocumented in California, and there used to be 6.

65% of Hispanic immigration was undocumented. Recent immigration accounted for maybe about 70% of the Hispanic population. And you don't go from 12% of the children being Hispanic to 50% within a single generation without some serious levels of illegal immigration.

I hate to use race, but there are no truly reliable figures specifically on illegal immigration.

None of these are exact numbers, but give some rough idea.

It could be lower because many of them were in the country so long they applied and got legal residency after staying many years illegally, or got citizenship through marrying a someone who had gotten citizenship. (which is kind of a grey area, as far as I am concerned)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Latinos have been in California since before statehood — just consider the names of cities, mountains, valleys, etc.

To make a claim that the Latino population is recent is willfully ignoring history.

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socalnolympia

Oh please, that is so disingenuous. There were very very few of them, relative to todays numbers. Most of them today came from later immigration, probably the majority after 1980.

The state was only a territory of Mexico for 27 years. Those were Spanish names, not "Mexican" names.

A census taken in Los Angeles in 1900 found that fewer than 1% of the residents were "Mexican or Spanish". I'm sure the numbers were much lower in other parts of the state (Los Angeles being the biggest city in Southern California at the time).

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Not disingenuous, but historical fact.

Who do you think were working the fields in California during WW2?

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socalnolympia

A historical fact that's almost meaningless when placed in context with the numbers.

I don't know about WW2, but during the Depression there were a lot of poor white people from Oklahoma coming to work in the fields. (Ever read Grapes of Wrath?)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

And during the Great Depression Mexicans who were US citizens were deported to Mexico. (Precursor to sending Japanese who were US citizens to concentration camps during WW2.)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Increase in Hispanic population is coming from children born here, not new immigrants.

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Carro

Funny how border security only became racist when Trump ran for office. We see how intellectually dishonest the claims of "nativism" are.

And btw, "native" is racist!

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chase_gw

Sure hope they have a good plan worked out if they do go ahead with family deportations. Wonder where they will keep them while they straighten out transportation and children's citizenship and placement.

I'm sure that's all under control.

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lurker111

Let's see. 1,000,000/328,000,000 = .3% of our population. Point three percent. .003 My goodness, how can we handle it?

Such an absurd argument for people who have been ordered to leave the country by a court of law. Just ridiculous. This is just the beginning. Another 20-30 million need to be processed. :)

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Ann Gale

Badly needed perspective and context. Not absurd. Actually this applies to Carro's and lurker's comments. Interesting.

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Carro

lurker, it is absurd to posit that we should simply ignore illegals because citizens outnumber them.

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lurker111

After reading that one absurd post...SOB the rest :) Unreasonable arguments should be ignored.

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Carro

lurker111

After reading that one absurd post...SOB the rest :) Unreasonable arguments should be ignored.

Along with the breathless outrage over calling something by it's name instead of whitewashing.

Oh wait, it's that racist?? WHITEwashing?

We can't have the same operation because our laws don't allow immediate deportation other than Mexico, but that should change.



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Chi

It's considered a slur now, that's the difference. And it wasn't referred to as a past event but as something re-occuring now, and using what is now widely accepted as a slur.

I guess we'll see if the moderators bring it back.

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Ann

"so has the order been given?"

Maybe the 5th time will be a charm.

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Ann

"Sure hope they have a good plan worked out if they do go ahead with family deportations. Wonder where they will keep them while they straighten out transportation and children's citizenship and placement."

I've felt Canada's immigration system/process and their adherence to it has much to be admired. What plan does Canada use for deportations concerning transportation/children's citizenship/placement?

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chase_gw


"What plan does Canada use for deportations concerning transportation/children's citizenship/placement?"

We handle it professionally and compassionately on a case by case basis. We don't herd them up in mass deportations .

When one "plans" on a mass deportation one would think there was a plan in place. According to DHS there wasn't one last time Trump broadsided them with his "orders".

Perhaps they do now but if they go forward as Trump describes.... big if... it will present a huge problem logistically. Which Is why I simply stated I hoped they had a good plan.


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Ann

That's the job of ICE, so I'll assume they have a plan and leave that to them. I hope they also have a plan for the safety of all, including our hardworking ICE agents. Yesterday, I saw an interview where a question was asked about whether the ICE agents would be armed. The answer to that was that typically law enforcement agents are armed, but hoped to not have to draw weapons in most cases. So, while they logistics of transportation is important, so are the logistics of safety. These are people who have been processed and asked to leave - and haven't. I would guess some might resist and my first hope will be for the safety of all involved. Then, they need to be removed. I'm not sure a Holiday Inn is needed as they are here illegally and do not have any basis to stay.

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chase_gw

Yes the roundup and deportation of thousands requires multi levels of planing and logistics.....nobody would argue that it doesn't. The safety end is something ICE, and other law enforcement agencies, are very experienced at and good at. They have been deporting illegals , many of them dangerous, for a long time.

Deporting entire families, at least the members who aren't American citizens, including little children poses a whole range of additional problems.


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Ann

Then, if the question of "so has the order been given" is asked the 5th or 10th time, I hope you or I don't learn the answer - for the safety of all involved in deportations. This is a serious, important, and sometimes dangerous job our ICE agents will perform and not the type of topic I think appropriate for a stirring of the pot type narrative from Americans or citizens of other countries outside America. Furthermore, deportations from the U.S. (and the way they are handled) are American policy and you've mentioned numerous times that you do not discuss American policy.

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chase_gw

Ann, all I have said is I hope they have a plan. I have not made any comments of what I think of the deportation orders. As a matter of fact, I doubt that you know, what my views are on illegal and/or legal immigration.

You may think you know but it will be based on assumption not fact as I have never said anything about what I think you should do.....not my business even though I have an opinion.

BTW what I have said was that I will not comment on what American policy should be . I have never said I wouldn't discuss it. I discuss healthcare all the time but I never say what I think America should do,

I also agree that the timing should not be announced........not sure why Trump did it the first time but it was a mistake and I hope someone is restraining him this time.

He has said that he would give Congress two weeks to come up with an amnesty fix. ....that time has come and gone , I think......but if they do will he NOT deport. Is that OK ?

ETA If you don't think I should discuss American policy then why engage me on it ? Had you not engaged me on the subject this AM I likely would not have revisited this thread.

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Emily H(9)

Please do not post racial pejoratives on this site, even if quoting a former policy. This will be the one and only warning on this.

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Kathy

Will they be sending all the people from China back? Has anyone heard?

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socalnolympia

I have read they've sent back some Koreans.

Don't think there's that much illegal Chinese immigration anymore, in fact some Chinese have even gone back to China because they say there's more opportunities in China now for them than there used to be.

I noticed there are fewer Chinese restaurants than there were 10 years ago.

So sad. Maybe they should issue special "restaurant visas".

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elvis

nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Increase in Hispanic population is coming from children born here, not new immigrants.

Um, I respectfully submit that that is disingenuous, It's both, IMO.

chase_gw


"What plan does Canada use for deportations concerning transportation/children's citizenship/placement?"

We handle it professionally and compassionately on a case by case basis. We don't herd them up in mass deportations .

Yes, well. Canada doesn't have "herds". We do.

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elvis

For 7th Consecutive Year, Visa Overstays Exceeded Illegal Border Crossing

You mean the illegal border crossings that are known, obv. Apple and oranges, what's your point, Kathy?

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Carro

144K crossing arrests just last month. That many visa overstays every month?

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Kathy

My point is more than likely most of the deportations will be visa overstays rather than people who crossed the border since most of them are already in detention. ICE will need detention facilities for them and they are full. Where do they plan to put them or is Trump just making noise so they will self deport?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

For elvis: Foreign-born share of US Latino population has declined to 34.4% per Pew Research.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/09/18/how-the-u-s-hispanic-population-is-changing/

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elvis

That makes sense if they are including the foreign-born unauthorized persons who are reproducing here.

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soupgirl53

It is possible ICE has assessed the situation and realizes it does not have the means available at this time to deport 1 million people. The detention centers are full and you'd think the sensible course of action would be to work through the asylum request and hearing backlog before apprehending more people.

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chase_gw

I suspect it is more than possible............

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socalnolympia

The sensible thing would be to stop taking on any more people until they can deal with the people they already have.

(except with the most extreme pressing cases)

Empty the detention centers back to Mexico.

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chase_gw

Has the roundup order been given yet ? How is Graham doing with his amnesty bill? I'm not hearing much on either front.

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elvis

chase_gw

Has the roundup order been given yet ?

We handle it professionally and compassionately on a case by case basis. We don't herd them up in mass deportations .

"Roundup"? "Herd"? Sounds like a rodeo.

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chase_gw

agreed.....a wild west rodeo

Elvis, do you know how Graham's efforts are proceeding?

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Ann

"Has the roundup order been given yet ? How is Graham doing with his amnesty bill? I'm not hearing much on either front."

Chase, you could look into these issues yourself and let all of us know what you find out. I believe you've now asked about an order 5 times. Have you googled for yourself yet to see if you can satisfy what appears to be intense curiosity of yours (my guess about your curiosity based on you asking the question 5 separate times)? Who is it on HT you think has the inside info into ICE plans and operations? I'm not aware of any ICE employees who are HT participants. Are you?

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Nana (10a)

compounded every year, year after year, that adds up.

No, it doesn't

It's still 3/10 of one percent of the population, because the rest of us are compounding faster.

SMH

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elvis

Elvis, do you know how Graham's efforts are proceeding?

Nah, chase. He never calls me!

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Stan Areted

ROTF!

Elvis, do you have ANYTHING else to do?

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Ann

Chase, this is the latest on Graham and his bill, from today. He'll be visiting the border with Pence on Friday, he's hoping Dems will agree to change asylum laws if more financial help is provided to Central America, so far - he's having no luck getting Dems to agree asylum laws need changing, no Dems will accompany them to the border on Friday, the marked up bill might end up presented to the public to see how they feel about changes to asylum laws - if Dems won't work with him, etc.

I found the article interesting.


https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article232490497.html

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Ann

Chase, Dems are needed for legislation. Have you any new info on the current thinking/position on the topic from the Dems? This, from the linked article:

"The only way to ensure a bill gets to President Donald Trump’s desk is for Democrats to get on board: They control the U.S. House, and in the U.S. Senate their votes are necessary to help legislation clear procedural hurdles.

If Graham moved his bill through the committee without Democratic support, it would be a purely messaging exercise."

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elvis

I feel sorry for Graham and Pelosi. Turns out Nancy is too white for the progressives.

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Ann

Chase, I also looked for info on what you are now referring to as a round up, since you asked 5 times:) I can't find any new news from today. The only thing I could find was from about 3 days ago and that info indicated deportations would begin after the 4th of July. How about you - have you looked for or found any new info?

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Ann

Elvis, Biden is taking a beating too. Too old, too white and now, too rich. MSNBC has been working pretty hard to end his lead.

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chase_gw

Thanks Ann interesting article. I found nothing current when I looked, must be that left wing Google thing. I thought FOX might be reporting something.

If the article is accurate, no reason to think it isn't, the Dems are making a huge mistake not negotiating.

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Kathy

ICE is starting Sunday according to news.

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chase_gw

Thanks Kathy...found this just released overnight. FOX is also reporting on it.


https://nypost.com/2019/07/11/ice-raids-targeting-illegal-immigrants-to-start-sunday-report/

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Ann

Thanks Kathy, I'm glad to hear the plan will get underway. I hope it will lead to all of the million (who have received deportation orders) being deported.

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Stan Areted

Well I'm getting more popcorn and have good butter and salt all ready for Sunday.

This should be veeeryyy interesting and I hope cameras are there to record it.

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Kathy

This should have been ongoing policy. Why Trump has to make a spectacle out of it for political reasons is so unethical. I don’t enjoy watching families being broken up and hauled away even if it is something that must be done.

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Joaniepoanie

Stan Areted

Well I'm getting more popcorn and have good butter and salt all ready for Sunday.

This should be veeeryyy interesting and I hope cameras are there to record it.

------------

Wow........reminds me of movies set in medieval times with the townspeople cheering at a stoning in the town square.

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Carro

Stan, there will be the usual accusations flung around, but this policy has been there for a long time, and Obama deported 3 million.


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Joaniepoanie


Carro

Stan, there will be the usual accusations flung around, but this policy has been there for a long time, and Obama deported 3 million.

----------

It's one thing for people to be deported, quite another to watch in glee as it happens.

BTW.... wonder how many being deported will be visa overstays from Europe and Australia?

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chase_gw

The article Ann linked to isn't completely accurate, that's not Ann's fault news stories often only tell part of the story.

Pelosi said today that she has been in talks with Graham and that there are several areas of possibilities where the Dems and Republicans can move forward on some sort of immigration bill....good news. Glad to hear that Dems are indeed involved would be very bad move for them not to be.

One concern may be that Graham is known to be a moderate on the immigration issue and while he and Pelosi and Durbin might be able to agree on something will it be tough enough for Trump? Trump won't sign anything that doesn't feed his base.


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adoptedbyhounds

"I don’t enjoy watching families being broken up and hauled away even if it is something that must be done."

There is a legal way to enter the US, and those who opted not to do so are coming face to face with a problem of their own making. I'm not going to lose sleep over separated families, because the families are free to stay together.

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Carro

If anyone loses sleep over illegals' families being broken up, it would follow that they also lose sleep every single time an American child gets separated from a parent when they get sent away.

I'm thinking the don't for the latter.

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Chi

"If anyone loses sleep over illegals' families being broken up, it would follow that they also lose sleep every single time an American child gets separated from a parent when they get sent away."

Like a parent going to jail? How long are misdemeanor jail sentences? Not very long.

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Ann

"Pelosi said today that she has been in talks with Graham and that there are several areas of possibilities where the Dems and Republicans can move forward on some sort of immigration bill....good news. Glad to hear that Dems are indeed involved would be very bad move for them not to be."

I heard Pelosi today too. She followed that by expressing that she didn't think it would work out. I'll look for the video.

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Ann

Here it is. The question about asylum laws and such was at about the 17 minute point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgP-8TscTwk

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Ann

I listened to it again to refresh my memory. It sounds like she's not in favor of changing laws but thinks we might be able to allocate resources in the countries from which these people are coming. Well Nancy, that will do nothing since 90% of them don't even have valid claims and are just looking to walk through our wide open border and then disappear. So, big deal if an office opens up in their country where they can apply for asylum. That's only the goal for very, very few of them anyway (10% or less). If the laws don't change and they can still just walk across our border and use the loophole, those offices won't do a thing toward any solution. They'll just keep coming and coming into the U.S. The laws most definitely need to change so they can't wait in our country for their hearing which they never go to!!!!!

Then she mentioned an initial conversation with Graham after quite a dramatic negative reaction to McConnell (she looked like she was ill). Then, near the end, she said, "Every time you think you're making progress it doesn't necessarily happen".

Everyone can listen for themselves but I don't think her words expressed any good or encouraging news! Dems want nothing to do with actually changing the asylum loopholes!

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Carro


Ann

I listened to it again to refresh my memory. It sounds like she's not in favor of changing laws but thinks we might be able to allocate resources in the countries from which these people are coming. Well Nancy, that will do nothing since 90% of them don't even have valid claims and are just looking to walk through our wide open border and then disappear. So, big deal if an office opens up in their country where they can apply for asylum. That's only the goal for very, very few of them anyway (10% or less). If the laws don't change and they can still just walk across our border and use the loophole, those offices won't do a thing toward any solution. They'll just keep coming and coming into the U.S. The laws most definitely need to change so they can't wait in our country for their hearing which they never go to!!!!!

Dems have no intention of fixing asylum. None. They want their voting bloc and will overturn anything, violate anything and create anything to get it.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"That's only the goal for very, very few of them anyway (10% or less). "

If that's the case, it will become apparent very quickly when those offices sit empty day after day.

Can someone point me to the source of that 90% figure that is cited so often?

The articles I have read state that in preliminary interviews 75% of asylum claims are found to be credible enough to warrant consideration.

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Carro

Ann, Nancy does look like the stress is getting to her.

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Carro

Ann, the migrants aren't even claiming asylum. They don't need to at this point.

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Ann

Lindsey, that's part of the loophole. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if our current laws regarding the preliminary interview are very easy to get through, so those people get released in our country (maybe 75% as you mentioned). But, in the hearing, only 10% are found to be credible asylum cases. By then, they're long gone and deportation efforts like those to be underway this weekend are the only way to remove those who have been sent final deportation orders.

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Ann

Lindsey, not only do most of them not have valid claims, but most of them aren't even showing up for their hearing and their cases are heard without them present at all. Again, then we have to locate and deport them.


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/dhs-secretary-90-percent-of-recent-asylum-seekers-skipped-their-hearings/

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

This source indicates that 28% of asylum claims were accepted in fy 2016, the most recent data available.

[How many people are granted asylum?


Nearly 20,500 individuals in FY 2016. In fiscal year (FY) 2016, the most recent year for which data are available, 20,455 individuals were granted asylum, which is about 28 percent out of the 73,081 cases. Approval rates varied by immigration court from about 10 percent to 80 percent.]

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-u-s-asylum-process/

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Ann

Lindsey, I get that 2016 might be the most recent data you could find, but that's before any of our current crisis began and the situation didn't even resemble what is true today and the current makeup of the border crossers! It was a completely different situation then, in every way (the numbers of people crossing, the number claiming asylum, the type of people crossing - men vs families, and where they came from). 2016 info is completely irrelevant to today.

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Carro

the number claiming asylum, the type of people crossing - men vs families, and where they came from). 2016 info is completely irrelevant to today.

What an interview with Ted Cruz yesterday. 50% of illegal males are coming over with kids now.

50%!

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Ann Gale

https://www.kltv.com/2019/07/11/watch-live-sen-ted-cruz-delivers-remarks-senate-floor-about-border-crisis/

U.S. Border Crisis by the Numbers in the Rio Grande Valley

  • 50,000 apprehensions in the RGV sector in May
  • 12 deaths at the border last week
  • 1,400 fraudulent families detected
  • 30 hospital trips each day
  • 50% of single males apprehended at the border had a child with them, up from 2% in 2014
  • 60 countries of origin for individuals apprehended
  • 60% of border patrol agents at detention centers, instead of the border



You forgot something in your post. 50% sounds more dramatic without context, doesn't it?

  • 50% of single males apprehended at the border had a child with them, up from 2% in 2014
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Ann

Lindsey, I'll leave you to look at all the numbers and such you care to. We're long past recognition of our crisis at our southern border and the role the asylum loopholes have in our present day problem. If you want to try to prove the crisis or asylum loophole issue isn't valid or doesn't exist, it's on your time and you'll need to locate your own sources to back up whatever your opinion might be. Again, we're long past that point of arguing about the existence of a crisis and we're now trying to figure out what to do about the crisis.

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Carro


Gayle Mail

Oh wait. You forgot something. 50% sounds very dramatic without context, doesn't it.

50% of single males apprehended at the border had a child with them, up from 2% in 2014


Thanks for adding that the number rose exponentially, "gayle"!

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Ann

Oops Gayle:) Maybe you better read what you posted again. Did you think it was a 2% increase (it sure seems like you might have that misconception based on your comment). The increase was 48%, not 2%.

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Ann

Lol Carro, we overlapped:))))))

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Ann Gale

My mistake. Thanks for pointing it out. See, admitting you are wrong isn't hard :) That change at that particular border is dramatic.

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Ann

Well, it is an excellent example of how very much things have changed. I'm not even sure data from 1 year ago would be representative of our current situation.

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Ziemia(6a)

Trump had an opportunity to find and get a solution done. What a waste.

*******

Knowing that you know what the Dem plan would take a lot more than watching a video. One doesn't reveal everything in advance, right ?, when negotiating.

******

Everyone knows that his Wall would not be on the border itself for the most part. Which means both sides of it are US.

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Carro

Yes, the change in men bringing children is dramatic and directly related to our asylum loopholes, which put children in harm's way.

Men used to come to work and send money back home. Now they bring their Golden Tickets to get in.

Ever ask yourself how these dads expect to work when they have a small child to take care of?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Crime and narco corruption has grown exponentially in Central America.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Until there is more recent data available, I don't know how anyone can claim that 90% of asylum requests will be rejected.

If you peruse the link I posted a bit it does go into recent trends that are not yet official.

As far as this statement: "If you want to try to prove the crisis or asylum loophole issue isn't valid or doesn't exist, it's on your time and you'll need to locate your own sources to back up whatever your opinion might be" it shows that you haven't been paying very close attention to the comments I've made about how we need to reform the process. I've never claimed that there is no crisis and I've never claimed there are no loopholes and I prefer to base my opinion on the most relevant facts and data available.

But if I find any data to support a 90% rejection rate I'll be sure to post it.

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Chi

"Yes, the change in men bringing children is dramatic and directly related to our asylum loopholes, which put children in harm's way."

So why didn't Trump fix those loopholes in the 2 years he had both the House and the Senate? Back when border crossing was at a 40-year low?

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Carro

Riiiiiiiiiiight, Trump closes loopholes and the Dems and their left-wing fringe runs to the nearest courts to block it.

Congress needs to act, not Trump.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Both/all need to act.

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Chi

"Riiiiiiiiiiight, Trump closes loopholes and the Dems and their left-wing fringe runs to the nearest courts to block it."

Lol, yeah, he didn't do it cause he thought the Democrats would block it. That's funny. Since when has Congress stopped Trump from doing what he wants?

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Carro

Love how you deflect to Trump while the Dumbocrats are telegraphing how to evade ICE to illegals!

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Chi

It's not deflecting to Trump when you mention Trump in your very first sentence of the topic. Trump and his lack of action for 2 years is relevant to the topic.

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Ann

"Lol, yeah, he didn't do it cause he thought the Democrats would block it. That's funny. Since when has Congress stopped Trump from doing what he wants? "

Right now and in his first 2 years, Democrats can and do block whatever legislation they want. In his first two years, he needed 9 Dem Senators to pass legislation, even if the House passed it. Now, he needs fewer Dem Senators (but still 7), and he needs the Dem majority House.

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Ann

"So why didn't Trump fix those loopholes in the 2 years he had both the House and the Senate?"

Have we still not yet reached an understanding of 60 needed Senate votes to pass legislation - at least for now until some Senate majority leader decides it's time to change that, which McConnell doesn't feel appropriate. Do you think it appropriate for that to happen the next time Dems have more than 50 Senators?

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chase_gw

Doesn't explain why he couldn't get anything out of the Republican controlled House

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chase_gw

What's your excuse for the fact that the Dens have passed multiple bills out of the House that McConnell refuses to bring to the Senate floor?

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Chi

"Have we still not yet reached an understanding of 60 needed Senate votes to pass legislation"

Did he even try?

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Chi

"What's your excuse for the fact that the Dens have passed multiple bills out of the House that McConnell refuses to bring to the Senate floor?"

They don't need an excuse. They absolutely love that he does that! And then they blame the Dems for obstruction. It's pretty amusing, and sad.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

It's been posted repeatedly that a simple majority (51%=51 Senators) is all that is required to pass a bill out of the Senate.

A supermajority is needed for various things. Here's a list.When is a Supermajority Vote Required?

By far most measures considered by the U.S. Congress as part of the legislative process require only a simple majority vote for passage. However, some actions, like impeaching presidents or amending the Constitution, are considered so important that they require a supermajority vote


Measures or actions requiring a supermajority vot

Impeaching: In cases of impeachment of federal officials, the House of Representatives must pass articles of impeachment by a simple majority vote. The Senate then holds a trial to consider the articles of impeachment passed by the House. Actually convicting an individual requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the members present in the Senate. (Article 1, Section 3

Expelling a Member of Congress: Expelling a member of Congress requires a 2/3 supermajority vote in either the House or Senate. (Article 1, Section 5

Overriding a Veto: Overriding a presidential veto of a bill requires a 2/3 supermajority vote in both the House and Senate. (Article 1, Section 7

Suspending the Rules: Temporarily suspending the rules of debate and voting in the House and Senate requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the members present. (House and Senate rules

Ending a Filibuster: In the Senate only, passing a motion to invoke "cloture," ending extended debate or a "filibuster" on a measure requires a 3/5 supermajority vote - 60 votes. (Rules of the Senate) Rules of debate in the House of Representatives preclude the possibility of a filibuster.Note: On November 21, 2013, the Senate voted to require a simple majority vote of 51 Senators to pass cloture motions ending filibusters on presidential nominations for Cabinet secretary posts and lower federal court judgeships only. See: Senate Democrats Take the ‘Nuclear Option


Amending the Constitution: Congressional approval of a Joint Resolution proposing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires a 2/3 majority of those members present and voting in both House and Senate. (Article

Calling a Constitutional Convention: As a second method of amending the Constitution, the legislatures of 2/3 of the states (33 states) can vote to request that the U.S. Congress convenes a constitutional convention. (Article 5

Ratifying an Amendment: Ratification of an amendment to the Constitution requires the approval of 3/4 (38) of the state legislatures. (Article 5

Ratifying a Treaty: Ratifying treaties requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the Senate. (Article 2, Section 2

Postponing a Treaty: The Senate may pass a motion to indefinitely postpone its consideration of a treaty by a 2/3 supermajority vote. (Senate rules

Repatriating Rebels: An outgrowth of the Civil War, the 14th Amendment gives Congress the power to allow former rebels to hold office in the U.S. government. Doing so requires a 2/3 supermajority of both the House and Senate. (14th Amendment, Section 3)https://www.thoughtco.com/the-supermajority-vote-in-us-government-3322045Hom

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Humanities › Issue

The Supermajority Vote in US Congres

For When the Majority Doesn't Quite Rul

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Flipboar

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Capitol building, Washington DC. Dennis Flaherty/DigitalVision/Getty Image

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Robert Longley

Updated October 22, 201

A "supermajority vote" is a vote that must exceed the number of votes comprising a "simple majority." For example, a simple majority in the 100-member Senate is 51 votes; while a 2/3 supermajority vote requires 67 votes. In the 435-member House of Representatives, a simple majority is 218 votes; while a 2/3 supermajority requires 290 votes


Key Takeaways: Supermajority Vote

The term “supermajority vote” refers to any vote by a legislative body that must get more votes than a simple majority of votes in order to win approval

In the 100-member United States Senate, a supermajority vote requires a 2/3 majority or 67 of 100 votes

In the 435-member United States House of Representatives, a supermajority vote requires a 2/3 majority or 290 of 435 votes

In the US Congress, several major legislative actions require a supermajority vote, most notably impeaching the president, declaring a president incapable of serving under the 25th Amendment, and amending the Constitution

Supermajority votes in government are far from a new idea. The first recorded use of supermajority rule took place in ancient Rome during the 100s BCE. In 1179, Pope Alexander III used a supermajority rule for papal elections at the Third Lateran Council.


While a supermajority vote can technically be specified as any fraction or percentage greater than one-half ( 50%), commonly used supermajorities include three-fifths (60%), two-thirds (67%), and three-quarters (75%)


When is a Supermajority Vote Require

By far most measures considered by the U.S. Congress as part of the legislative process require only a simple majority vote for passage. However, some actions, like impeaching presidents or amending the Constitution, are considered so important that they require a supermajority vote


Measures or actions requiring a supermajority vot

Impeaching: In cases of impeachment of federal officials, the House of Representatives must pass articles of impeachment by a simple majority vote. The Senate then holds a trial to consider the articles of impeachment passed by the House. Actually convicting an individual requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the members present in the Senate. (Article 1, Section 3

Expelling a Member of Congress: Expelling a member of Congress requires a 2/3 supermajority vote in either the House or Senate. (Article 1, Section 5

Overriding a Veto: Overriding a presidential veto of a bill requires a 2/3 supermajority vote in both the House and Senate. (Article 1, Section 7

Suspending the Rules: Temporarily suspending the rules of debate and voting in the House and Senate requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the members present. (House and Senate rules

Ending a Filibuster: In the Senate only, passing a motion to invoke "cloture," ending extended debate or a "filibuster" on a measure requires a 3/5 supermajority vote - 60 votes. (Rules of the Senate) Rules of debate in the House of Representatives preclude the possibility of a filibuster


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Note: On November 21, 2013, the Senate voted to require a simple majority vote of 51 Senators to pass cloture motions ending filibusters on presidential nominations for Cabinet secretary posts and lower federal court judgeships only. See: Senate Democrats Take the ‘Nuclear Optio


Amending the Constitution: Congressional approval of a Joint Resolution proposing an amendment to the U.S. Constitution requires a 2/3 majority of those members present and voting in both House and Senate. (Article

Calling a Constitutional Convention: As a second method of amending the Constitution, the legislatures of 2/3 of the states (33 states) can vote to request that the U.S. Congress convenes a constitutional convention. (Article 5

Ratifying an Amendment: Ratification of an amendment to the Constitution requires the approval of 3/4 (38) of the state legislatures. (Article 5

Ratifying a Treaty: Ratifying treaties requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of the Senate. (Article 2, Section 2

Postponing a Treaty: The Senate may pass a motion to indefinitely postpone its consideration of a treaty by a 2/3 supermajority vote. (Senate rules

Repatriating Rebels: An outgrowth of the Civil War, the 14th Amendment gives Congress the power to allow former rebels to hold office in the U.S. government. Doing so requires a 2/3 supermajority of both the House and Senate. (14th Amendment, Section 3


Removing a President from Office: Under the 25th Amendment, Congress can vote to remove the President of the United States from office if the vice president and the President's Cabinet declare the president unable to serve and the president contests the removal. The removal of the president from office under the 25th Amendment requires a 2/3 supermajority vote of both the House and Senate. (25th Amendment, Section 4) Note: The 25th Amendment is an effort to clarify the process of presidential succession.


https://www.thoughtco.com/the-supermajority-vote-in-us-government-3322045

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Ann

"Doesn't explain why he couldn't get anything out of the Republican controlled House"

Irrelevant, just as Graham's asylum legislation will be right now, even if 53 Republicans in the Senate agree to it. That won't get it to passage in the Senate and definitely not in the House.

Chase, often you question on HT why bills aren't brought to the U.S. House or Senate floor. I don't think it's because you have a lack of understanding of how the writing and passage of legislation happens in the U.S. I'll leave my opinion of why I think you choose to question this to myself.

Many of the more experienced members of both chambers of Congress aren't all that interested in the game playing that represents. Both chambers may use the tactic from time to time to make a point to supporters and voters, but it's irrelevant to passing legislation, which is the job of Congress. I don't know if you think American politics is a game of stirring the pot, but it's not or at least shouldn't be. Congress is how our laws are passed and passing one chamber with no hope of passing the other does nothing more than make a political point, and does nothing to achieve the job of Congress, which is to create and pass meaningful legislation.

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Ann

Oh Lindsey

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chase_gw

"Congress is how our laws are passed and passing one chamber with no hope of passing the other does nothing more than make a political point, and does nothing to achieve the job of Congress, which is to create and pass meaningful legislation.

Ann, you and I have different ideas of how things should work. What you describe above is not how it is suppose to work. There is an entire process designed to manage Bills that pass in one chamber and will not pass in the other......it's called Conference . That's how it is suppose to work.

Ryan had a very specific reason, one he stated often, for not bringing bills to the floor. He had a hard and fast rule that no bill would be brought to the floor that required Democratic votes to pass, Period. That is why no immigration legislation was passed out of the House until the government shutdown debacle.

McConnell's game is a little different. I heard him describe his reasoning on a Sunday morning show a few months back. In a Presidential election cycle he doesn't want any votes on the record from Republican Senators supporting Democratic legislation especially if it means it would pass. Secondly, after Trump pulled his stunt over the shutdown, he won't let anything come to the floor that Trump may veto , or worse yet sign if it is a Dem sponsored Bill , leading up to 2020.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Chase, often you question on HT why bills aren't brought to the U.S.
House or Senate floor. I don't think it's because you have a lack of
understanding of how the writing and passage of legislation happens in
the U.S. I'll leave my opinion of why I think you choose to question
this to myself."

Ann, it was also a good choice to keep you thought about my motivation to yourself given you are likely wrong, as you so often are, about what you think, I think. Not sure why you found it necessary to add that entire piece. It served no purpose in advancing the discussion which is what you told Emily you were here to do.

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soupgirl53

It should also be added that McConnell has no qualms, if something matters enough to him, to use his GOP majority to amend the rules so he can get what he wants passed. McConnell is the holdup, not the Democrats, and that is because he does not want his caucus having to make tough votes on immigration matters prior to the 2020 elections.

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Stan Areted


Joaniepoanie

Stan Areted

Well I'm getting more popcorn and have good butter and salt all ready for Sunday.

This should be veeeryyy interesting and I hope cameras are there to record it.

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Wow........reminds me of movies set in medieval times with the townspeople cheering at a stoning in the town square.


I would never cheer at anyone being stoned--that is a ridiculous thought.

I will absolutely cheer if I see people who have already received deportation documents and are staying here anyway, evading the law because it will mean that our laws DO mean something, despite the liberals trying to pick and choose which people are held accountable to our laws based on who they need to be indebted to them politically and what human beings they can use for their own greedy and selfish desires for power and money..

Just as many cheer when other criminals are brought to justice.


Again, an insulting post about me in response to a humorous, light comment from me. You smitten Joaniepoanie?

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Kathy

Secondly, after Trump pulled his stunt over the shutdown, he won't let anything come to the floor that Trump may veto , or worse yet sign if it is a Dem sponsored Bill , leading up to 2020.

McConnell is the roadblock, pure and simple. He takes orders from Trump and refused to work for Obama. His wife has a cushy job now as Transportation Sec. and is advancing their business interests in China. There is no way he will cross Trump.

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Ziemia(6a)

Needing 60 votes in the Senate is a decision by McConnell. There is no evidence he worked to find a solution. He was and is the leader who has no interest in leading or negotiating.

He decided to not allow a vote unless it was assured to have 60 while only a simple majority was needed.

"Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said he won’t waste time bringing up a House-passed bill in his chamber unless President Donald Trump supports it. And even then, the Kentucky Republican signaled he’d want to ensure the bill could get 60 votes to overcome any filibuster threats.

“If it came out of the House and the president said he was for it, I’d obviously consider it,” McConnell said. “What I’m not interested in doing is ... spinning our wheels and getting nowhere.”

https://www.rollcall.com/news/politics/obstacles-house-immigration-deal

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Ziemia(6a)

He'd *consider* it.

“If it came out of the House and the president said he was for it, I’d obviously consider it,” McConnell said.

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Ziemia(6a)

Stan - you claim your comment was humorous AND know the other wasn't?

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Kathy

So McConnell is essentially saying he won’t “consider” anything Trump doesn’t approve. Period.

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chase_gw

Part of McConnell's job is to work through the Senate,and back to the House if necessary until a piece of legislation is produced that all can sign on too...even if somewhat reluctantly.

McConnell's prime motivation is to keep Senators votes off the record leading up to 2020 . Republicans are the ones with most seats at risk this cycle. Including him.

He is doing whatever it takes to keep the Republicans in control of the Senate while denying the Dems any legislative wins that might help them in 2020....the peoples work be damned.

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Ann

"It should also be added that McConnell has no qualms, if something matters enough to him, to use his GOP majority to amend the rules so he can get what he wants passed."

He most certainly has qualms about this, and as much as it sometimes frustrates me, I think it wise. When it came to judges, the Dems made that change and McConnell added SCOTUS judges, but the legislative change would certainly have ramifications either party should give serious thought to.

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chase_gw

I agree with Ann. It's the only decision McConnell has ever made that I found honourable..

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socalnolympia

Maybe for every asylum seeker who has their application accepted, offer them $18,000 in cash if they will forfeit the offer and go back to their country, and see what they do.

I think that will give us a very good idea what percentage of these asylum seekers are actually "fleeing for their lives".

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