I think Betsy is coming back in a big way!

Carro

I see Nike's abolishing the Betsy Ross flag shoe as making so man Americans aware of the history of Ross and her flag, and how much it means to so many Americans.


Shoes, flags and shirts are all selling!


I will fly my Betsy Ross flag proudly and wear my t-shirt to show I will not be cowed by the likes of some washed-up quarterback who promotes antipathy towards police officers and worships Che Guevara.

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mudhouse

Yup. Not everyone agrees with Kaepernick's opinion about the Betsy Ross flag sneakers.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/betsy-ross-flag-sneakers-pulled-by-nike-are-selling-for-2500-online-2019-07-02

Nike’s decision to pull shoes with the Betsy Ross flag on the heel has sparked immediate controversy — as well as a price surge on the secondhand market.

Pairs of the Air Max 1 USA are now selling foras much as $2,501, according to the sneaker reselling site StockX, which listed the shoe’s retail price at $120. As of Tuesday morning, 66 pairs have been sold, the site said.

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Carro

Love the Snoopy meme!

What Nike has done is created a black market for their shoe already in circulation, and a whole market for BR flag apparel.

I've already bought a t-shirt.

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mudhouse

I used to sell on eBay, so I know what's likely to happen with this current auction...the shoes won't really sell, as the high bidder will probably back out after winning. I don't condone that behavior (it sucks for the seller who did the listing.)

But clearly there are those who would like to register their opinion on the topic, on eBay.

Only one day into a 7-day auction, 37 bids, current selling price $5100, and 383 people watching the auction.

I don't think the public has turned away from the Betsy Ross flag on apparel. Quite the opposite.


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mudhouse

I like this one a lot, also for sale on eBay:


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Carro


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Everyone does know, don't you, that Betsy most likely did NOT create/design the flag that unofficially bears her name today--nor was "her" flag the only one available at that time.

There is no evidence that any one person deserves credit for creating the first flag. Evidently, it "evolved" and a number of people contributed to its design.

Kate

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Stan Areted

Well give us a name, Kate.

Who knew we should have thrown a fit all those years ago in school and told the teachers there was no real Betsy Ross, that it took a village of anonymous stitchers.

As Hillary says at this point WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Francis Hopkinson.

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margievank

OY, the left have trouble giving credit to anyone for anything. Everyone must get a trophy, right?

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patriciae_gw(07)

I did a little rustling around. I have known for many years that the Betsy Ross story is just that but for me the clincher was reading the account given by her grandson who is the person who created the story. He claims that she was responsible for the five point star. The gentlemen who were asking her if she could do the flag wanted to nix this because it would be too difficult and she supposedly said how easy it would be and cut out a five point shape from a piece of paper. No only does it stretch credulity that George Washington would have been a part of the contingence who went to her shop to order the flag(as if he had nothing else to do) no group of men is going to tell a woman how to sew unless they are tailors and they weren't.

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catkinZ8a

Flyover logic from the Radical Extremist Left.

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Delilah66


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cattyles

Here’s the truth about this issue. I know it’s not fun outrage fodder but it’s the factual information. I realize that there is a lot of deliberate obtuseness going on. Some people care about knowing the facts.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/betsy-ross-flag-nike-colin-kaepernick-patriot-movement-ku-klux-klan-854612/

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patriciae_gw(07)

The grandson of Col Ross, one of the supposed contingent, did an exhaustive research for evidence of the story for the Pennsylvania Historical society and found absolutely nothing to back up the story. He felt that it was proof that the story was just that. Because his grandfather was one of the people in the story he had a good reason to want to find it true. He did not. This has become like a religion for people. Our flag is worshiped in a way other countries do not.

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catkinZ8a

Betsy Ross sewed the first flag, lol.



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live_wire_oak

We all know it’s aliens. Aliens made the flag. Aliens made the planes and airports poof away as well. Weve been enlightened, and now we know. It’s always those pesky disembodied ghostly baby aliens.

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mudhouse

Cattyles, I will admit, I tried to read that Rollingstone article, but pretty quickly found myself only skimming. Too many things I completely disagree with. Those aren't facts; they're opinions, and opinions I don't share.

Instead, I agree with the top-rated comment after the article:

This article peddles a treacherous, literally traitorous logic: that any and all symbols of America's Founding and heritage are now presumptively fascistic. Worse, this article makes that odious argument in a grossly conniving manner...weasel wording at every turn.
Nike must never live this down, and their defenders must be understood as contributing to a literally traitorous gaslighting of Americans about our own history.

I can't say it any better than that.

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elvis

I've already bought a t-shirt.

Not from Nike, I hope!

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Carro

elvis, no, not from Nike! I probably have some Nike apparel that I bought because it was on sale at Kohls. I won't burn it if it's still useful.

Ah, yes, just realized. My pool visor has a swoosh. Meh, don't really care.

I don't mind a small logo, but would never buy anything that doubles as a billboard.

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live_wire_oak

The hakenkreuz symbols were adopted by the Nasix . They corrupted the original $was tika meaning. You don’t see anyone in the modern world still clinging to the original meaning of the symbol except for a few small local temples in India where they are literally carved in stone. The corrupted meaning became too strong to not repudiate and reject.

White nationalists are adopting that same old strategy of coopting heritage symbols that on the surface seem to be innocuous. They infuse them with a deeper more sinister meaning, until no thinking person can not not acknowledge that corruption, and that connection.

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chijim

I can't wait for confused Trump's tweet defending the Betsy DeVos flag!

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catkinZ8a

:slow clap:

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catkinZ8a

Palmetto State Armory's new Betsy edition part---out of stock, of course--selling like hotcakes.

*This is a Pre-order item. Expect shipments to begin within 4-6 weeks after purchase*

Palmetto State Armory’s limited-edition "ISTAND-15" Betsy Ross American Flag lower will only be available once. Only 1776 of these are going to be made, so all serial numbers will be #1 through #1776. The "ISTAND-15" lower comes from the most advanced aerospace manufacturing technology and is one of the industry’s finest forged, MIL-SPEC lowers. This PSA lower is made using our automated manufacturing process. Our multi-million dollar engineering and manufacturing facilities allow us to produce a product of unequaled quality and value.

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patriciae_gw(07)

What is this thing for?

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Delilah66

It’s a stand for an automatic weapon, also known as a weapon of mass killings or toys to some.

ETA

”unequaled quality and value” - sure as shootin’ to be on target.

Disgusting

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elvis

It doesn't look like a stand. What is it?

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mudhouse

It's not a stand, it's a part of the firearm itself, called the lower receiver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjaROQDbM0U

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cattyles

I bet the white supremacists are buying those like hot cakes.

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mudhouse

Nah, just American gun owners that aren't buying Kaepernick's hype.

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maddie260

I guess if this gets some peeps all fired up... small minds, and all......

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maddie260

^^^^^ It's useful distraction for some. That's how I choose to view it.

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artemis_ma

Stan: Who knew we should have thrown a fit all those years ago in school and told the teachers there was no real Betsy Ross, that it took a village of anonymous stitchers.

I don't think anyone claimed there was no real Betsy Ross.

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artemis_ma

Carro, what does the script over the flag on that t-shirt say? Can't read it here.

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foodonastump

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I see this from two angles: First, it’s a little (or perhaps a lot) ridiculous that some people would let others reappropriate a historical symbol like that. Did we seriously just make the “Betsy Ross Flag” a bad thing? Second, while I do find it ridiculous, I also find quite telling the types of folks who will then go out of their way to display it, knowing what/why the controversy is.

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mudhouse

I see this from two angles: First, it’s a little (or perhaps a lot) ridiculous that some people would let others reappropriate a historical symbol like that. Did we seriously just make the “Betsy Ross Flag” a bad thing? Second, while I do find it ridiculous, I also find quite telling the types of folks who will then go out of their way to display it, knowing what/why the controversy is.

This is an interesting comment to me, foodonastump...because it seems someone who can see the problem with letting others reappropriate a historical symbol would also understand the reason why people would then go out of their way to display it.

It's sending a signal that they're not letting the reappropriation attempt succeed. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable response, if you don't agree that the Betsy Ross flag is a bad thing?

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Ziemia(6a)

It seems like being stubborn - refusing to understand a different point of view.

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mudhouse

It seems like being stubborn - refusing to understand a different point of view.

I'd say there's a difference between understanding a different point of view and agreeing to accept it as your own. If I agree to stop using the Betsy Ross flag, I'm agreeing to the redefinition of what it means.

I'm all for understanding different points of view, but in some cases, it's an either-or situation.

You either feel good about the Betsy Ross flag (because you choose the long term historical definition) or you don't (because you agree with Kaepernick it's a symbol of a shameful era.) You can't halfway fly a flag. Can you?

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Carro

It's sending a signal that they're not letting the reappropriation attempt succeed. Doesn't that seem like a reasonable response, if you don't agree that the Betsy Ross flag is a bad thing?

Yes, it's saying that the Left can't amplify what a very, very, very small % of losers do to hijack the flag for their hate symbols. Further, we know the ONLY reason he Left is doing this is to politicize EVERYTHING, hijack our beloved traditions and reinforce the notion that America is bad. Not just flawed, but bad. So bad, it must be destroyed and remade.

I'm not having any part of their cynical ploy.

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Carro

You either feel good about the Betsy Ross flag (because you choose the long term historical definition) or you don't (because you agree with Kaepernick it's a symbol of a shameful era.) You can't halfway fly a flag. Can you?

There's nothing they won't try to poison and politicize, so where does it end? In my life I never would have thought the BR flag somehow akin to a swastika, but sure as heck, the Leftist pundits are doing it.

Why? Because some washed-up loser quarterback said so?

How ridiculous.

You know the American flag is next.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Carro, who is this they? I am left,I am liberal, I am progressive. Are you addressing this diatribe at me?

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foodonastump

Welcome back, thread!

Mudhouse, one could argue either way but my feeling is, if you’re going out of your way to display something that is currently a hot topic as having racist undertones, it shows that you’re ok with the possibility of people thinking that you’re intentionally sending out that signal. I wouldn’t expect anyone to stop hanging their BR flag, but to load up on imagery that they probably never thought twice about before is another story.

Not the greatest analogy but think of the ok symbol. People have been using it forever and don’t expect them to stop nor will I go out of my way to stop. But that guy who goes out of his way to photobomb every picture flashing the sign, well there’s little doubt he’s instigating with a symbol he knows can be interpreted as racist.

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, this is an extremist view (seeing it simply as This Or That) (I see way more than two positions):

You either feel good about the Betsy Ross flag (because you choose the long term historical definition) or you don't (because you agree with Kaepernick it's a symbol of a shameful era.) You can't halfway fly a flag. Can you?

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mudhouse

Mudhouse, one could argue either way but my feeling is, if you’re going out of your way to display something that is currently a hot topic as having racist undertones, it shows that you’re ok with the possibility of people thinking that you’re intentionally sending out that signal.

I think the best way to fight back against (what I see as) a completely wrongful appropriation of an iconic symbol is to use it in the way it was intended, at every possible opportunity.

If I want to fly or wear the Betsy Ross flag because of what it means to me, but I don't because I'm afraid that a small number of people might misunderstand why I'm wearing it, they've won. I've absolutely abandoned that symbol to them. I think that's crazy, and cowardly, to boot.

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Ziemia(6a)

Again, it's not a THIS or THAT situation.

There is also understanding a different PoV and sensing the related sensitivity and wait a bit before protesting the protest.

Respecting a different PoV doesn't mean agreeing with it. I personally really like the BR flag. Was thinking of using it but with this new knowledge - I will keep using the one I have for the time being.

Bennington Flag.


It seems like being stubborn - refusing to understand a different point of view.

I'd say there's a difference between understanding a different point of view and agreeing to accept it as your own. If I agree to stop using the Betsy Ross flag, I'm agreeing to the redefinition of what it means.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

My solution to the flag controversy and what is appropriate to fly:

.

.

Locally it works just fine.

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mudhouse

Ziemia, I think it's fine if you're more comfortable with delaying your use of the Betsy Ross flag, if that seems like the right thing for you, based on the recent Kaepernick controversy.

But I don't think the viewpoint of someone who chooses to outright reject the flawed redefinition is correctly defined as an extremist viewpoint.

There is also understanding a different PoV and sensing the related sensitivity and wait a bit before protesting the protest.

I tend to reject warnings about appearing insensitive a lot more than I did a decade ago. I'm not an insensitive type, generally, but I see that warning used far too often in recent years as a way to scare people into a desired politically correct behavior.

I doubt that Kaepernick worried much about being sensitive to those who would disagree with his viewpoint. Why should my own opposing viewpoint be viewed as any more extremist than Kaepernick's?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

If someone agrees to stop using the Betsy Ross flag, they could simply be recognizing that there is controversy regarding the symbol.

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Carro

Mudhouse, one could argue either way but my feeling is, if you’re going out of your way to display something that is currently a hot topic as having racist undertones, it shows that you’re ok with the possibility of people thinking that you’re intentionally sending out that signal

Oooooooooooooooor, we can say "Not on my watch will the Left amplify what a tiny fraction of the population has done and destroy the BR flag".

The REAL reason is the former, not the latter.

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Carro

I tend to reject warnings about appearing insensitive a lot more than I did a decade ago. I'm not an insensitive type, generally, but I see that warning used far too often in recent years as a way to scare people into a desired politically correct behavior.

Well heck, at this point in the never-ending Leftist lunacy sage, it's offensive to be white.

What are ya gonna do.

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Carro

If I stopped using the BR flag because the Left ginned up some manufactured outrage, I'd be lending credence to the lunacy that is the flag is somehow a symbol of oppression.

Again, trying to control expression.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Boy, stuff about the Left, mostly made-up stuff, is sure being thrown around.

I’m not a lunatic, nor do I “hate white people.” None of my liberal and progressive friends and relatives feel that way either.

(They do have some strong opinions on the deficiencies of Anglo cuisine.)

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mudhouse

If someone agrees to stop using the Betsy Ross flag, they could simply be recognizing that there is controversy regarding the symbol.

Yes, they could. I think that's Nike's declared reason, and I think that's their own decision to make.

It's still agreeing to stop using it, bottom line. It's either on their shoes, or it's not. You're either flying the flag, or you're hiding it in your garage, until the controversy blows over.

The decision to stop using it reinforces the newly assigned negative connotation, and some of us aren't okay with contributing to that process; that's all.

That doesn't make us extremists, or insensitive, or racist.

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foodonastump

I understand how you feel, mudhouse. I actually feel that way about the American Flag. Not as a racist symbol, but as a symbol of the Right who are under the impression that they’re more patriotic and often feel the need to hang flags to prove it. I recently moved into a house with a flag flying 24/7. How sad is it that the thought crossed my mind to take it down because I don’t want anyone thinking I’m a trumpster? Well I left it because I’ll be damned if I let them rain on my love for this country. When it comes down to it, it’s what’s in your heart and what you’re comfortable with.

So mudhouse, I hope you fly your BR flag with love and pride. Some will fly it more out of hate; that much is self-evident in this thread.

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Ziemia(6a)

Again, it's not This Or That. There are several more options and solutions than this:

"You're either flying the flag, or you're hiding it in your garage, until the controversy blows over."

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mudhouse

I recently moved into a house with a flag flying 24/7. How sad is it that the thought crossed my mind to take it down because I don’t want anyone thinking I’m a trumpster? Well I left it because I’ll be damned if I let them rain on my love for this country. When it comes down to it, it’s what’s in your heart and what you’re comfortable with.

Good for you, foodonastump. And l bet, like me, you'll have no problem explaining your personal reasons for flying any flag you like, if someone asks. That's one thing that posting here has done for me. It makes me work on getting my thoughts straight, so even in real life, I can share them with a little more clarity!

(Sometimes...)

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

The BR flag is only one version of the US flag.

It’s not as if there is no other version available to fly.

ETA: My family has never flown any version other than the current one.

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catkinZ8a


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Ann Gale

Welcome "catkinZ8a".

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mudhouse

Again, it's not This Or That. There are several more options and solutions than this:

"You're either flying the flag, or you're hiding it in your garage, until the controversy blows over."

Okay, I'll ask, Ziemia, but I'm not trying to be silly. How do you fly a Betsy Ross flag halfway? How would you fly it with sensitivity? Alternate it with the regular American flag? Find ways to clue your neighbors in, in casual conversations? I really don't understand what you mean. To me, this is one example of a yes or no situation...

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Yea, California with the world’s sixth largest economy.

Such a shame if other states were to be as prosperous! Our CA tax dollars would not have to be funding the red states.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Bogus map, bogus allegations.

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Carro


nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Bogus map, bogus allegations.

If that's what you call poop, then sure.

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catkinZ8a

Homeless people are usually toilet-less.

SF saw a big increase in homelessness this year. But exactly how big depends on who counts as homeless.

City count identifies 1,700 more homeless people than official numbers based on federal guidelines.JOSHUA SABATINIJul. 5, 2019 12:00 p.m.THE CITY



Numbers released Friday show there was either a 17 percent or a 30 percent increase in the number of people experiencing homelessness in San Francisco this year compared to 2017.

It all depends on who is counted as homeless.

The City’s own definition of homelessness is broader than the definition reported to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, which requires the biennial homeless count.

Traditionally, The City’s homeless count tally released every two years and cited by city officials has been based on The City’s own definition, which includes, for example, people staying in jails, hospitals, or rehabilitation facilities.

This year, however, something different has happened: The City is relying on the narrower federal definition for its official report.

The change makes a substantial difference. It means that city officials are telling residents they found 8,011 homeless persons during a point-in-time count on the night of Jan. 24, rather than the 9,784 homeless persons that would have been reported under the broader city definition.

It also means they are reporting a 17 percent increase in homelessness since 2017, as opposed to the 30 percent increase seen using the city standards.

In 2017, The City reported a homeless point-in-time count of 7,499, using its own local definition. At the same time The City reported to HUD the lower number of 6,588, a difference of 641 residents.

The 2019 homeless count released Friday by the Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing only provides the higher tally based on the local homeless definition in an appendix.

https://www.sfexaminer.com/the-city/sf-sees-big-increase-in-homelessness-but-exactly-how-big-depends-on-who-counts-as-homeless/


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mrskjun(9)

So Betsy Ross was a feminist, she was an independent business woman, a Quaker, an abolitionist, so she was probably a Republican. I can see why the left want to diminish her.

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Chi

"I can see why the left want to diminish her."

That's quite a generalization. I think you'd be hard pressed to find even a few lefties who have an issue with Betsy Ross, much less all of them.

Do you share the same beliefs of every single conservative?

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Carro


mrskjun(9)

So Betsy Ross was a feminist, she was an independent business woman, a Quaker, an abolitionist, so she was probably a Republican. I can see why the left want to diminish her.

Yup, she's on the trash heap of history now.

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Ann Gale

Nope. Only in the imaginations of the Kaepernic haters.

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margievank

Rush said that his STAND UP FOR BETSY ROSS t-shirt has been his most sold item to date. He donates all proceeds. I guess there have been over 70 knock off companies trying to get in on this. Way to go RUSH!

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katrina_ellen

Its like we should be ashamed of our countries flag according to Kaeperwreck. I don't think so.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Setting aside modern party names and affiliations that did not even exist at the time the flag was designed(by who ever it was) Betsy Ross sounds like a liberal.

Still Betsy Ross as an actual person is not the point of all of this to me faux flap. It is a nice decorative flag that gets used from time to time as back ground decoration. I wonder why Nike was using it in the first place? When I was young putting a flag on your shoe would have conservatives chewing the carpet while shrieking disrespect and desecration. What happened there?

I do not support the religious symbolism of American flags. I am speaking of the religion of patriotism. It is a strange American fetish. but that is just me.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

No it is more like a certain segment of people hate Kaepernick more than they love a flag they had no idea existed. You have to ask yourself WHY NOW am I buying this flag and anything it is on now.


If no one was ashamed of it before why did they not already have a trunk load of BR flags, t-shirts, napkins?


IMO the hate is closer to the hearts than the love of a symbol.

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cattyles

Exactly right, marquest and patrician. Thank you for saying it so well.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

History lesson: Betsy Ross could not have been a Republican as that political party was not in existence during her lifetime.

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Carro

Saw Rush Limbaugh on FOX this morning. His online store is selling Betsy Ross t-shirts and they're selling better than any merch he's ever carried.

All proceeds go to Tunnel to Towers Foundation.

A great American woman and great American cause!

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2019/07/08/our-t-shirt-tribute-to-betsy-ross/

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marquest(PA zone 6)

There is a silver lining that has come from this conflict.


Black owned and operated wholesaler in Philadelphia profits are up, orders are flying in to fill. This extra revenue of profit give them more money to donate to the Democratic party.


Niki stocks shot up giving Kaepernick more credibility that he knows what the majority buying population respect. When he speaks they will continue to listen. The hate is proving he knows what he is talking about.


More they buy out of hate contribute to the cause to fight their hate. I say, please continue. It is helpful to the cause. You have to thank them for the contribution.

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Ann Gale

Rush Limbaugh? The entertainer who pretends to be a rabid conservative for ratings and revenue? That explains a lot.

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Ziemia(6a)

Mudhouse, I offered some options already. If you didn't notice then the others I will likely also go unnoticed.

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