What kind of countertop?

Do you have a receiving dock and a boom lift on a forklift? Stone requires specialty handling considerations. It is a very risky thing for those not used to heavy rigging to deal with. People end up dead every day in the stone industry.

I bought Mexican tiles for a counter online. But those are individual. Maybe you're talking about laminate from Lowes or somewhere, or a pre-fab counter for a bath vanity?

I am talking about the ability to give all measures and details and have a price that include the material , fabrication and install ( I have no interest to install it by myself )

I would be interested in Quartz or porcelain , product that looks like the pictures I have , or a sample I got .

Are you basically asking about ordering something without seeing the slab in person? People seem to do that a lot.

yea, email a plan to a frabicatior..... poof

On my gosh! I sure wouldn't want to take on that responsibility! It's bad enough that typos on my grocery list ended up buying out the entire stock of lasagne noodles. I can,t imagine buying something like stone and entering in things wrong. You can't exactly donate that to the food bank.

That’s like trying to get a custom made suit and never visiting the tailor. You aren’t going to be very accurate with your tape measure. And darn sure few homeowners own a framing square to check a 90° angle. and to tell him how out of whack the corners are or how wavy the wall is.

Gee what could go wrong?

You can buy soapstone counters online. I almost did through this site

https://www.soapstones.com/soapstone-diy-do-it-yourself/

I spoke with a person several times and felt relatively comfortable with the process. We had a long delay in the final pieces of our cabinets and I found someone willing to travel to our location to install the soapstone so chose them instead.

I'll ask for a quote of a simple vanity. Typically my fabricator(s) sends the owner to template a project when custom slabs are involved. If its a prefab slab, they can be cutdown onsite.

Do you live in a No Mans Land? I wouldn't do it. Counters are an exacting LASER template on site, a discussion with the person who templates as to every jog, turn seam, and edge profile and location of seam etc. Counters are like politics. They are LOCAL.

I would. If I can get a quote online, handle all the communication with the fabricator via a digital interface and have one point of contact for my service requests, then it's a no brainer. People are buying mattresses and cars online, so why wouldn't we get the same experience with countertops?

"People are buying mattresses and cars online, so why wouldn't we get the same experience with countertops?"

Mattresses came in set sizes. Cars are available with options, but vasically no structural chnages can be made. Countertops every dimension is critical, very critical. As someone said earlier what could go wrong? All you need to do is search here for the amount of people who had their tops measured and templated and still had a hot mess to realize people do not know what they do not know. As I mentioned, what could go wrong?

There's a reason why fabricators do templates & not rely on measurements alone. Simple measuring can go wrong very quickly & you are paying out a lot of money. Are you willing to take all responsibility for measurements?

I would not buy anything online that included installation. Purchase of material for local fabrication would be understandable, but not a totally custom piece which would only retain a fraction of its value if it did not work out as expected. Unless you can afford to take a crazy chance on something really unique and accept the possible consequences of having to pay twice, just stick with the typical program.

I don’t think counters come with the same 90-day trial/money back guarantee that most online mattress companies seem to offer. Personally, I prefer to outsource specialty trades for the same reason I buy insurance - why take the risk? Is there some expected cost savings or just a desire to cut out the middle man?

I think that people had the same arguments regarding buying mattress and cars online a couple of years ago (oh...I need to feel the mattress before I buy it is something we all used to say I am sure). Yet, you see companies such as Casper and Vroom that sell these items online.

Let's assume that the templating phase is still happening as it is today and let's assume that you can get a sample and even you don't need to pay until you see the stone and have the final quote after templating.

Would that help? if not, what would make you buy a countertop online?

Old lady disclaimer: I'm going to start sounding like my grandparents. But, "You get what you pay for". First, countertops have small margins in our industry. There isn't a lot of wiggle room for profit/discounts. Second, Unless the company can provide you with a good local measure service and take responsibility for fit, you are crazy to even consider tops online. Heck, even the box stores have a huge contract that protects THEM. An online place will be worse AND there's no store to walk in to and speak with a manager. Third, if you are wanting a stone/quartz countertops and they only do curbside delivery, you better increase your umbrella policy.

Is that so called 'good deal' really a deal if: your tops don't fit well, your best friend drops a top....worse yet, on his foot, your backsplash tile won't cover the wall gaps entirely, the cooktop cutout needs some adjustment. Who do you call? My store gets calls on stuff like this all the time...DIYers wanting to save a buck and need someome to help fix issues. They call me to bail them out. Sorry, we don't work that way. Its sad to hear their frustration. All of this for minimal savings. Good luck.

Here's something to remember: If you can buy it off a shelf, then go to the box stores or online. If it's custom or installed, stick with local pros.

Kelly

Ps. I've been in the business long enough to remember when a huge infux of online vendors appeared in the 90s. A lot of them failed for one reason or another....homeowners wised up to this. You wouldn't believe so many of my clients today say they 'want to buy local' or 'keep their money local'...it's a movement. However, the younger generations coming to adulthood don't remember all the failed online kitchen stores.

Absolutely NOTHING would induce me to buy countertops online, you research gathering marketing marketing shills with zero industry experience. This is well beyond you don’t know what you don’t know here. You don’t even know that custom items need custom experts involved, and it isn’t able to be automated.

So the key is the measurement and installation? How many people do you think can actually tell the difference between the brands or even the types of countertops? How many of them choose a colour that is not white?

I actually bought countertops several times and it was always a painful process where inventory wasn't always there, prices changed, and when I had a problem the fabricator sent me to the manufacture and vise versa.

Perhaps this market is doomed to be full of friction...

The KEY is AN On Site Laser Template. That means in your home, on installed cabinetry. Then a cut, Polish, delivery , install. No online anything.

Or come back here to whine when you have gotten a " great deal" and are in misery.

Or keep asking until you get the answer you seem to want.

These are not mattresses and they don't bend either.

"I actually bought countertops several times and it was always a painful process where inventory wasn't always there, prices changed, and when I had a problem the fabricator sent me to the manufacture and vise versa."

Unfortunately your inability to find a good fabricator does not mean ordering on line is the answer. Houzz is full of people that cannot read a level and a tape measure. How do you think they would make out making a template, ordering a large pc of fabricated fragile stone, having it delivered, then they bring it in the house and after attempting to install it find it doesn't fit. What do they do then?

This is very obvious that the template part is inevitable , but assuming that this is part of the process of ordering online ( schedule a template ) why wouldn't consumer want to order online ? please help me to understand as I am exactly this consumer , I don't feel like shopping around , go to HomeDepot etc , I just want it simple stupid with clear transparency and peace of mind .

@Dan Dan - I don't understand what you are gaining by buying a stone on-line. You admit that you still need to find a trusted fabricator who would actually take responsibility for measuring, templating and installing.

If you are installing a counter top that is completely fungible like I assume Corian is, then I guess you could do it.

However, for any other kind of solid surface material, each slab is different so I don't know what you would be gaining unless you are interested in builder grade quality surfaces and you don't have much interest in aesthetics.

I researched a lot of materials on-line but I went to the stone yard (actually two stone yards) so that I could pick out my slabs in person. Even slabs with the same name can look completely different as I picked a specific slab as one I liked more than others which were theoretically the same at the yard (i.e. they were stacked together in a group of about five slabs).

If you really don't care about the stone or the templating, then just call a recommended fabricator and tell him/her to come over and that you want this particular stone because there are plenty of pictures of stuff on-line if you don't care what a particular slab looks like.

I am not understanding what one gains from an on-line business model in terms of counters? And I bought a car through the internet in 2000 so I think the internet is a fantastic way of buying and researching lots of stuff so long as the item is fungible.

Helen , first I am only talking about Quartz , Porcelain and Corian- products that are unified and has no unique look . secondly , when I went to the stone suppliers they will not share with me the slabs prices and refer me to the fabricator ( In that case someone is making extra markup ) and lastly my one experience with the fabricator was so bad in terms of communication , transparency and inconsistant ( before I chose him I went to 3 others and gave me different prices for the same stone ) ... that why I feel that buying online ( assuming service levels like other online platform) will be a great thing .. what else am I missing and thank you for your detailed message

Dan Dan... I'm not quite following your definition of "On-Line". Are you talking about looking up a supplier who sells strictly on-line, no shop, no office, nothing? Or are you talking about finding a fabricator who has a website, has a shop near you, comes to you, installs for you, etc.? Someone who has store front near you & has a website advertising their product but you don't want to go there physically, is completely different than buying from something like Amazon, Ebay, Alibaba, etc.

If, you are agreeing that a template is inevitable, I can't see any "On-Line" suppliers even offering such a thing as template & install. Where is it fabricated, how would they get the template if they are half way across the country if they would even be in the country? What if there's a problem, a defect, etc.? This idea of On-Line has disaster written all over it!

Go ahead and set up your online countertop business. I want to see the faces and reviews of your first 10 customers who will not accept or pay for the end product because it doesn’t look like what was on screen and doesn’t fit their cabinets.

"... when I went to the stone suppliers they will not share with me the slabs prices and refer me to the fabricator ( In that case someone is making extra markup ) ..."

A slab supplier is completely different from a Fabricator Yes, the Fabricator is making money on the slab. He's the one trucking the slab, templating it, cutting it, shaping it, installing it. And the slab supplier is making money on the slab which they purchased from the distributor or possibly even direct from the quarry.

Do you buy your groceries from the farmer or do you buy them from the grocery store? Do you buy your gas from the oil refinery or from the gas station?

So, you are saying that you're more trusting of a faceless company to give you a quality product more than a few local fabricators? Because these fabricators quoted you different prices does not mean they are dishonest, it means one might be better than the other & that one might be trying to make more money than another. It's our jobs as consumers to find the best one for the job, based on more things than price alone. If you're not willing or wanting to do this homework, that's your prerogative. What can be wrong with what you're looking into? Improper fit, wrong colour, second grade slabs, no warranty , no recourse if something goes wrong. That's about it, nothing to drastic.

There have been a few threads discussing the issue of purchasing counters/stone in different locations.

In Los Angeles where I am located, you go to the stone yards and purchase the stone from the stone yard directly. You then hire a fabricator who picks up the stone - comes to your place - measures and installs it for a separate installation/fabrication charge. There is pricing transparency to the extent that you can find out the price for slabs you are interested in. My personal experience in Los Angeles was that the natural stone yards are separate from the places that sell manmade stuff or at least the stone yards I visited sold natural stone - granite and marble and that I went to a retail establishment when I was considering manmade counter surfaces - quartz, Caesarstone, Neolith etc.

As to your bad luck with your fabricator, the guy who installed my counters was great although I didn't interface with him directly as he was hired by my GC. My GC was recommended and all of the tradespeople he used were great.

If I were getting a counter installed as a stand alone job, I would ask everyone I knew that had work done and get referrals.

Based on above responses, the Los Angles business model is that the stone yard makes whatever profit they want to make on the stone and the fabricator makes whatever he wants to make based on picking up the stone, fabricating it and installing it - and also dealing with the responsibility for any issues with installation.

I am sure contractors and designers receive discounts at Stone yards as well as every other place.

I ordered the slabs through my designer and was charged her cost plus the markup we had contractually agreed upon. I have found that purchasing through my designer generally was less expensive or the same as buying items directl. .

However in Los Angeles the stone yards do sell directly to the public and you send the fabricator of your choice to them. The fabricator does not purchase the stone nor did my GC.

This is a regional thing as I learned from several threads as many areas do not have direct to the public sales. Perhaps this is because there are so many yards in Los Angeles as literally one can drive down the street where they are all located and there are many of them next to each other. I think there are places with fewer yards and less competition and therefore the business model enables them to have a closed sales by only selling to fabricators.

Contractors EARN their discounts and markups. Just try to DIY all that they do and get back to us.

@itsminenow - Your analogy makes no sense - your pharmacy is buying drugs wholesale and then selling them to you at a markup. There are actually some drugs like complex chemotherapy drugs which a doctor administers in a medical facility and then they are more like a GC because they are buying the drugs from the distributor. But even then, the analogy isn't really on point since the price the doctor will be reimbursed for the chemo will be negotiated between the insurance company or Medicare.

A GC or designer gets "to the trade" price because in general they purchase relatively large amounts of stuff from their suppliers. How much dry wall or rough plumbing fixtures have you purchased in the past decade?

In terms of counters, the same would be true as the expectation is that someone in the business will provide repeated business. And also, there is probably a lot less work required in terms of each sale as a professional will know exactly what they need.

@itsmenow - that's a poor analogy. Contractors and fabricators get discounts because they're volume buyers. They then add value by building, fabricating, assembling, cutting, installing whatever they purchase. All those functions cost them money - wages, tools, transport, insurance, storage and of course taxes. Of course they're going to charge more for the finished, installed product than a stoneyard will charge you for a cash and carry piece of stone. They are charging for the product and/and the service. And the better builders and fabricators will charge more because they produce a better product.

That's not gouging, that's charging market value for the entire package. That's where the OP is looking at the wrong thing - the price of the stone isn't what matters, it's the price and quality of the installed package that counts.

Your labor price just went way up to deal with your attitude.

"We would not expect a doctor demands a cut of pharmacists' , or Physical
Therapists' profits, why do you think it is reasonable for a
fabricator, after being paid for his/her service, is entitled to have a
cut of slab sellers' profit?"

I wouldn't expect a doctor to demand a cut from pharmacists but I don't see how that's at all relevant to this situation. The stone sellers is perfectly entitled to set the prices for his slabs, and to give discounts where he chooses. He may well make the very sensible choice to take a little lower per-slab profit when dealing with a fabricator who is a regular client because he knows he'll make up for it with more slabs sold. That's a business decision, pure and simple. The fabricator isn't taking a cut of the slab seller's profit, he's
contributing to it, by increasing sales volume.

That's a business model followed by many businesses, not least by the big drugstore chains selling discount pharmaceuticals. I know of physios who give discounts to sports teams, and to government agencies paying for rehab for patients. Volume and reliable, steady income streams matter.

As it happens, I go to a physio from time to time. Because my physio is vastly experienced, she charges more than a junior physio would. I'm prepared to pay the difference for her level of expertise. My physio delivers a service, the fabricator produces a finished product. A good physio and a good fabricator are likely to produce better outcomes/products than less experienced or competent ones. In other words, they're producing higher added value than their less able counterparts. They're entitled to charge more for higher quality. Just as the physio's prices have to cover her cost of doing business, so do the fabricator' s, and that may well include having more expensive equipment and materials available to produce that better outcome.

Those are all legitimate things to factor into pricing - they are not "gouging" unless you think that Chuck in a truck is going to deliver the same product as a fabricator with laser templating equipment.

What a ridiculous!!!! conversation . Has the OP ever watched the claw and truck haul a slab from a stack in a stone yard into better lighting for viewing? How does the op think it then gets on a truck, A frame style and transported to the fabricator. Now it has to get INSIDE To the muddy watered areas for cut and polish. Then back onto a truck, into the residence and onto tops, fitting perfectly. ............following that laser template.

Try it. I recently asked my fabricator for a perfectly round 21" top for a drinks table . A soapstone remnant. ''If you can do that today, I'll pick it up"

Now.........I can do twenty MAN push ups, no girlie on the knee variety. I lift weights every day. I could barely get that sucker out of the back of the suv and into her home. Knock yourself out with this DIY concept. Knock yourself out with the idea that you should get wholesale prices WHY?

Want a free lunch? Go ahead and order online. I can't wait for that 2 ton thing at the end of your drive, probably cracked, and you figuring out how to get it in the house and installed. You deserve the outcome.

Itsmenow - The OP is talking about situations in which the stone seller won't tell him the price of the stone, but simply refers him to the fabricator for a total stone and install price. The fabricator is a critical part of the sale. A relationship with a good fabricator helps the seller sell more stone.

In other situations, where the stone seller sells outright to the customer, the profit he makes is obviously unaffected by whatever the fabricator charges, post sale, for his services. Same thing with doctors and physios - my GPs income isn't reduced because my physio charges more than another physio might, and I'm prepared to pay for better outcomes by using her. I can't see an on line system of slab buying offering the same level of choice.

Some slab suppliers have open pricing.... but its typically their undiscounted retail price. Even the big box stores sell branded slabs at retail, while splitting discounts between fabricator and the big box store.

There are advantages & disadvantages of working with a consumer for slabs. The disadvantages is most don't have the ability to move or handle the material.

In my area, stone fabbers make VERY little profit on the material. They make their money on the labor. Yet their risk and liability is VERY high. They have to handle the slabs and install them....if they damage it, they have to remake it and any profit goes right out the door. It is a very difficult business to be in.

Fabricators getting slabs cheaper than a homeowner is like jmm said....they buy in volume. I don't understand what you don't get about this? Why do you think that is so "greedy". It's just like I give my regular contractors a small discount. If a contractor is going to do 3-8 kitchens with me per year, he will get a reduced price for that loyalty.

Why do you think it's "greedy"? I'm not going to get political here but the notion that profit is greedy or evil bothers me. Profit feeds my family and puts a good roof over our heads. During the recession many of my competitors closed their doors. With my business, we had to cut corners in so many ways to survive. One of the corners cut was not getting a paycheck for about six months. Another thing we had to do in those day was giving homeowners extra discounts so we could sell a job. I actually had people say "I know everyone is hungry for business...what are you going to do for me if I buy from you?" I kid you not! So in those tough times, yes, we gave discounts to get a job. Is that evil of the homeowner to ask? Maybe, but it's part of the business, supply and demand. But we survived the recession, thank goodness. The last 3 years have all been record years for us.

You should follow your gut, OP. You must be smarter than everyone else on the planet. Why do things like all the dummies? You could be the great countertop innovator we have all been waiting for. /s