Gosh, it's been a long time (and a big learning curve) since I started this thread. We never did have the installer redig the pond; I was afraid we would create more problems by messing with the liner (the pond has mortared rock ) re: leaks, etc. His excuse for not going the specified depth was that they hit a large stump (I would have told them to rent a stump grinder if they'd mentioned it) and that I didn't specify a koi pond. But I did clearly specify at least 3' in depth; even they admit that. Oh, I now know that I have a Savio system with the biofalls and skimmer. The bottom drain is only for draining, not recirculating. Not enough filtration and too much water current IMO. My water quality and clarity is great due to all the plants and consistent weekly 10% water changes. We ended up joining the local koi/watergarden club and bought seven young koi at a club cull sale. They said these would be my "suicide fish" with a new pond, but guess what? They are all still here, growing and healthy. And this in spite of a massive heatwave (100+ temps). My water has been up to 92 degrees each day but the fish seem fine. Probably (definitely eventually) too much fish load for my pond which I now think has no more than 1500 gallons according to my calculations. All of the fish are fairly small (7" and less) at this point. I also have two small shubunkin, one small sarassa, and a large adopted comet. In hindsight, I actually like my goldfish best and they are the most tame. The herons haven't found us yet (knock on wood) but I am resigned to the fact that they will come as we live near a floodplain/greenbelt. My husband and I decided that we want to add a second pond for the koi (deeper) connected to this pond with some sort of stream. We will add more filtration and a recirculating bottom drain in the 2nd pond and the top pond will function as a bog filter/goldfish pond as I really am enjoying the plants (especially lilies) as much as the fish! We got a bid from this same contractor which was totally out of sight (7'x8') with 4' depth, recirculating bottom drain, bioball filter tank, and dragon filtration for $16K! We just laughed and said no thanks. We are planning on a DIY project this time with lots of advice from experienced club members. We will contract out the digging and rock work and think we can do a much larger pond for way less $$. We are hoping to work on it this fall/winter if we can afford it. Glenda: you wouldn't know if any of these fish suppliers have Wakin goldfish for sale? I would love to have a couple after we expand our setup but hate to order onlne and have them shipped; I'd much rather see/select them in person. I plan on making a trip to both Bonnie's and the place in Franklin when time allows. I have three children so it's tough to find an open weekend.

So many nay-sayers! All it takes is a large pocket book, (preferably inexaustable public funding)and a panel of experts to create a "natural enclosure". Ask your most local zoo! My opinion is it could be done, and with appropriate habitats for different species, BUT, it would be expensive and have to be large enough to provide room for the transition of habitats. You would also be adding LARGE amounts of risk to your pets. Predators, parasites, pathogens, and other microorganisms that you would have no control over. Your pets would also have no defense against them, (other than their shell) as they are not indigenous to your area. None the less, you "could do it". You would have to create a large sump either covered, or separated outside the perimeter of the enclosure. My first thought is a shallow stream, where a slow moving, (but enough flow to carry waste away) stream would drain into your sump area through a screen too small for your smallest pet to get through. (Maybe large holes cut into the side of a 55 gallon drum in a grid pattern.) That sump would need to be AT LEAST a 100 gallons, (not necessarily all in one container), and contain a prefilter, mechanical filter, and bio filter to treat your tortoise wastes. Since they would use it infrequently, (after all, they are tortoises)it would probably work fine to treat the water so long as it could get enough time to chemically breakdown, and balance. Your prefilter could be as simple as a mat of plant roots near the drain to the sump, or a settling chamber, which would also pre-treat the waste, while allowing the dirty water to flow through. Properly chosen, the plants would also provide a food source. You would pump from the sump, beyond all the filters, back up to the head of the stream area, and the water would carry wastes back to the sump through the drain system. Experimentation would be needed to set the water flow, then it would have to be adjusted as the plant growth varied. The automatic requirement is the most interesting part of your idea. THAT could get very expensive! Filter back washing to waste, chemical monitoring, water level, etc. is quite a design feat in itself! But if you are willing to monitor the water level, and run a hose a little every few days/weeks, it would not be too bad to have it manually operated. In fact the bigger the sump, and filters, the less attention it should need if designed right. A simple toilet valve could control water level for you, but the supporting infrastructure becomes an issue. Solar pumps are certainly available to move the amount of water you need to move, and most likely, move it often enough to keep the water healthy, depending on system loads. (size of pond exposed to sun, wind, and relative filter sizes, how many leaves get in, etc.) Just like your pets, water features need attention. So you know, there is no such thing as a maintenance free pond, just one that hasn't been maintained, or is not yet completely full of stuff. Nature puts things in, we take them out. We do this to keep the area a pond. In nature, the pond is always changing, and always filling with gunk, getting shallower and shallower all the time. What you proposed is certainly not a simple project. What other proposed is simpler and more practical. It certainly is cheaper, and less risky to use a large saucer, and unless you are willing to create a large water sump, a lot less headaches! You have easy control over the quality and quantity of the water in the saucer, and simple disinfection with a weak bleach solution provides a micro guard. When you decided to take on pets, you decided to devote a portion of your life to their care. If you want them to live in a natural area, you will need to return them to their native lands and set them free. Other than that, continue to care for them daily. They deserve your attention! And you benefit from providing for them. Heck, they're tortoises, you only have about 25-100 years to take care of them! Buck up! -TT

Gatormom, I have container water gardens all over the place. They never turn into stagnant, mosquito infested messes. Once you have the plants balanced (not hard to do) and a couple of guppies in them, they are good to go. The guppies eat the mosquito larva, and the oxygenating plants keep the water relatively clear. You can top it off every other day or so, or even run it over a bit, if you want to change out some of it. I never use pumps or filters on my urns and tubs that I raise pond plants in. Here are a few pictures for you to see what I mean: This is a large, galvanized tub that I keep taro, rush, papyrus and dwarf water lilies in. I add black food coloring to make the water look deeper and more reflective. It also keeps algae growth down. This is an urn I had a potted canna in last year. You can see that I had hornwort floating in the water. (You can buy it at any aquarium place, including PetSmart.) It is a good oxygenator, and it gives the baby guppies (and there are always baby guppies) somewhere to hide. Here is the canna I'm growing in the urn this year. It really is not as hard as you might think, and during the summer, it is especially nice, because the plants never wilt or dry up. I plan to add several more container water gardens around the yard this year. I'm going to sink a big black tub in the ground and grow a lotus in it. Marcia

I have made many outdoor things, my gnomes come to mind. I paint them with acrylic paint and spray them with an acrylic clear sealer that lasts for several years! BUT I also take them in for the winter to keep them from the thaw/freeze factor. Ceramic painted objects will NOT last too many years exposed to the winter elements. I found that out the hard way. After several years they may have to be repainted or just touched up. Because of the sealer I usually wash them with warm soapy water, wipe them down with plain alcohol (to remove some of the spray on sealer) and repaint! I don't use varnish or Thompsons waterseal. I am afraid I would not be able to get it off with alcohol if I wanted to repaint. What do you think? Rosie