Subzero-Wolf or GE Monogram

4 years ago

I am currently starting a kitchen remodel. Putting cost aside, which appliances are better to go with? Sub Zero/Wolf for refrigerator and ovens/cooktop or GE Monogram for all. Also Bosch or Miele for dishwasher? Thank you.

Featured Answer

jalarse

4 years ago

I installed when we built our home 19 years ago Wolf (all gas so no blue enamel oven) 48” and Sub Zero 48” refrigerator. They are work horses. One service call in all those years. You get what you pay for.

Comments (44)

Babar
4 years ago
IMHO I wouldn't even consider GE Monogram. Mine was built in and a joke. Finally died and I got a REAL refrigerator --a SubZero
JOe Guilot
4 years ago
IMHO I wouldn’t even consider paying in excess of $5k for a Wolf oven until they stop producing ovens where the blue enamel liner flakes off into your food. Why would you? There are so many other options without that problem. However, Sub Zero makes outstanding refrigeration.
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People have very strong opinions sometimes either way about which is easier to clean. Wolf and Thermador are sealed so it is pretty straight forward. This shows how a BS is cleaned. https://youtu.be/3K2DR2ub1sA To understand the difference in how these burners relate to cooking, look at some of the aspects of design that give certain functions. In looking at burners, consider the BTUs, high if you like to stirfry or need to heat something quickly. Look at the low end of The BTU range of the burner if simmer is important. A lot of burners have higher BTUs now, but BS has a couple of things that affect how the heat is applied to the pan. They do not have a burner cap. This allows the heat to go straight up. This is what some people mean when they say "open". A cap causes more spread of the flame on highest heat. Wolf has a dual stacked burner so there is a little less of the flare because you really have two burners and the range of heat is spread over two burners. Another important design aspect is the shape of the burner. The BS has a star configuration which distributes heat over a greater area. This is the BS star burner top and Wolf on the bottom The star burner is an advantage in getting heat to the bottom of a wok or gives better distribution on cookware that does not distribute heat very well like cast iron, enameled cast iron or some stainless but the cookware must be sized to the burner to take advantage of the star configuration. If you have a ring burner, your cookware can also distribute heat if you have thick copper or aluminum. The burner ports are also aligned on the sides of the rays of the star so as you turn the burner up, the flame stays in a specific area. A ring capped burner will flare more on high heat. I have Wolf so this actually works well for me. I like that the burner flares because I use high heat on big frying pans. I also have heavy aluminum or copper so the star is not as much as a benefit for me. I don't really want heat toward the middle but others do. I would try to find "live" demo ranges and take some of your cookware and see how this will work with your pans. Here are some burners with different features. You can see why you need specific terminology rather than just the ambiguous term "open". Star capped burner sealed tray. Probably one of the widest burners on high heat. Thermador. Star shaped, uncapped burner, semi sealed tray in that it comes very tight to the burner but comes off for cleaning (American Performer) Capped burner, open tray, an (older Viking). They advertised this as "open". 23K, Triple ring, uncapped burner. Semi sealed tray. Capital. Advertised as "open" BlueStar actually has several types of ranges. In my order of preference. RNB-high BTU, 22K star shaped, open tray RCS, lower BTU, 15K, star shaped, open tray sealed burner, 21K BTUs, ring burner, sealed tray Platinum, highest BTU, and you can change out an overlay griddle tray for a grill. The oven is odd in that all the heat comes from the back and the convection never shuts off completely. There is also a brand called Big Chill that has a pro model made by the company that makes BS closest to the sealed burner model. https://bigchill.com/30-pro-range.html Another aspect of performance is the oven. Look at the broiler size. I don't know what you have now but most prostyle ovens have a gas infrared broiler. Much hotter than a regular gas broiler but often small. The Monogram has a reversing convection fan. One of the problems with a convection fan is that it can set up an air current that makes hot spots. Manufacturers deal with this by using baffles or two fans with varying degrees of success. The fan in the Monogram reverses periodically to avoid hot spots. Monogram and BS I believe will both hold a full sized commercial baking pan. Check out out the service available in your area on these different brands. 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paddykk
4 years ago
I have a GE 240V Monogram Advantium over a GE Monogram wall oven. The Advantium serves as a microwave and as a Speed Oven. The GE Monogram Oven is good enough for me - I'm not a gourmet cook but I heard from other "real" cooks on this forum that the wall oven doesn't bake evenly because it has different temperatures in different parts of the oven etc. so the browning is not even.

We installed this configuration six or seven years ago and no issues - although I hardly use the wall oven only a handful of times a year at the most. The Advantium we use it mostly as a microwave and have used it as a speed oven (it did a great job).

Now we are building a second home and in the market for double ovens and it's so scary and so hard to decide what with all the blue enamel chipping!!!
Michelle misses Sophie
4 years ago
Absolutely avoid Monogram for refrigeration, unless you have an unlimited budget for inverter boards, control boards, and dispensers...
K R
4 years ago
Do you have a Ferguson by you? Go in and look at everything. I was dead set on getting sub z and wolf until I saw Jenn-Air. Great products! And super high end just like the others.
paddykk
4 years ago
We are building a second home and we are buying Subzero refrigerator and Wolfe induction cooktop, 2 Miele dishwashers, Sharp drawer micrwave.

Now for the ovens wanted to buy the Wolfe E series double oven to get the package discount but now scared to take that step because of the blue enamel chipping issues on this forum. Looks like none of the ovens are immune to this problem - except maybe the Ganggue, Bosch - I hardly use the oven - its more to have ovens because its a vacation home and it will be used mostly during holiday time when you would need a double oven with lots of guests!

Frozen and can't make a decision because I have to weigh in on the huge cost of any double oven with the package discount that SubZero/Wolfe offere ($1000 off and another countertop appliance like a toaster oven, juicer etc.)

Another thread they said to buy Wolfe ovens only if are getting the 6-year warranty! Since I'm not a gourmet cook maybe I should go with Bosh or GE Monogram oven.

Everything has been decide except for the double oven!!

Very confused on the double ovens!!
Robin Katzenstein thanked paddykk
paddykk
4 years ago
I have to see if Wolfe E series comes in the gas configuratoin
Robin Katzenstein
Original Author
4 years ago
Beautiful kitchen jalarse. Thanks for sharing the pictures and the vote of confidence in Subzero-Wolf.
Robin Katzenstein
Original Author
4 years ago
paddykk, I also was going to go for the Wolf E double oven, however, I have now decided to go with the Wolf E single oven and the Wolf steam/convection oven above it. The steam/convection oven has a stainless steel interior so no chipping worry. It can still be used as a second oven. Although, I have a feeling the single oven might end up becoming my second oven, thus possibly avoiding the chipping issue. The steam/convection oven has a smaller interior, but I was told it can cook a whole chicken and I believe a turkey up to 15 lbs. The steam keeps the meat moist, yet the convection browns the skin. I'm looking forward to using it. It's also supposed to keep leftovers from drying out when being reheated. I'm also going to do the drawer microwave as well as I have two boys who use it a lot.
paddykk
4 years ago
Thanks @Robin - I have read on another thread that you should try to get a 6 year warranty if you can for the Wolf oven so you are covered. It comes with a standard 2 year and then you can get a 3 year more from Subzero and then if you get it installed by a certified installer then you get one more year - bit then you can't get a $1000 off for the package promotion.
Michelle misses Sophie
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Something to consider - check your credit card benefits to see if they include additional warranty. I know Citi cards add 2 years beyond the manufacturer's AND any extended warranty you purchase, with a 7 year from purchase date max (so if you got a 6 year warranty it would cover you 1 extra year, or if you got a total of 5 years from W/SZ the CC will cover 2 additional beyond that.) Of course this would apply only if you used the card to buy the appliances.

$1000 is a nit in the overall cost of the project, and especially if you amortize it over 5-6 years of warranty (vs the cost of service/replacing the oven due to a liner issue), so I would not worry one iota about a package promotion...
paddykk
4 years ago
Good idea @Michelle misses Sophie - I will call my Citi card and find out - while I'm at it I will call all my other cards too!!! (True about $1000 in the long run - I shouldn't worry about that)
Allison0704
4 years ago
GE Monogram in last house (fridge/freezer and range). No issues with the range. Some problems with the other. Have Wolf and SZ in new house. ASKO DW, Cove was just about to come out but not in time.) Love our new appliances. Installed by certified installer, so got the extra year.
B D
4 years ago
@Michelle misses Sophie - Wow, I had no idea about that Citi benefit as I almost never use the card, but that is great. Thank you for sharing.
paddykk
4 years ago
@allison0704 Do you have Wolfe range or the Wall ovens? No chipping I presume as yet - maybe they fixed the problem!!
Allison0704
4 years ago
fwiw, our local appliance showroom is large and carries all the major high end brands. He didn't try to steer us towards any one manufacturer.
Allison0704
4 years ago
paddykk, 48" dual fuel range. My understanding of the chipping problem has a lot to do with the self cleaning mode and prepping the oven for high temps. We've been in the house just over a year and haven't had any issues.
frodaddi
4 years ago
FWIW the SZ/W promotion that adds the 3 years warranty also includes one or more free "Wolf Gourmet" countertop appliances. We just received the countertop oven. Which turned out to be great timing since our Breville smart oven - which we used a lot (more than our wall oven) - just died. Don't think I'd personally pay the $599 list price for the Wolf vs less than half that for the Breville, but for free it was certainly a useful bonus.
pennfire
4 years ago
Robin - i had the same questions when planning our kitchen remodel. I cook, on average, two meals per day and do a lot of entertaining and large batch cooking. This is my first and last kitchen remodel so I was getting what I wanted, no matter the cost (to a point).

I worked with a large dealer (three locations in a wide metro area) and asked endless questions. What I LOVED about the dealer was the salespeople never tired of giving me detailed answers and opinions. I wasn't pushed in any direction. I visited the showroom three times and talked with three different sales people because I wanted different points of view.

I benefited from having an architect friend who is also a great cook. I trusted his guidance as it related to which lines his clients put in their homes and their opinions of their choices.

The short version of - the GE Monogram line are 15 year appliances, meaning they perform as expected for about 15 years, maybe more, and if I went that route, expect to swap them out down the road or get ready for service calls. Not that they aren't good, just that they aren't built to last or be workhorse appliances like Wolf/Sub Zero and Viking/Thermodore.

I talked to someone that is a serious home cook who has lived in two homes (over the past three years) with SubZero/Wolf as well as Viking/Thermodore appliances. She personally has no preference and likes both equally.

I have yet to encounter anyone in real life that had an issue with the Wolf enamel flaking. I know at least five people (who actually cook) with Wolf dual fuel ranges who haven't had problems.

I ended up selecting SubZero - one fridge column and one full freezer column and Wolf 36" dual fuel range with griddle.

I could not be happier with these appliances. Next month it will be a year since the remodel was complete. I am amazed how fresh the produce stays in the new fridge version my prior (newish) fridge. The range is a delight, the burner control is perfect and I enjoy the different cooking modes for the oven.
paddykk
4 years ago
@ pennfire Thanks for all the details! I think most of the flaking listed on this forum atleast are mostly for the Wolf wall ovens not the dual fuel range.

By the way you are correct - self clean is mostly the culprit for chipping (the sales guy said the same thing) - but why have a self clean option when you can't use it. I don't cook that much but when I do I swipe everything down after it has cooled off - so I'm ok with not using the self clean
Allison0704
4 years ago
I don't like how hot self cleaning modes are, and have only used twice in my lifetime. Like pennfire, we also bought SZ 36" fridge tower and freezer towers. The fridge really does keep food fresh longer, and drinks are colder. The only thing I do not like about the freezer is the ice maker - when you open the drawer to get ice, pieces that haven't dropped yet fall into the drawer below. We have a Scotsman nugget ice machine, so usually the SZ ice maker is turned off... but recently the door was flung open to far and the hinges had to be replaced. Both pans on the SZ towers were replaced (also under warranty/no charge) since the fridge pan would end up getting hit by a small fan. SZ has since changed production, so no more issues. Our appliance repair company said they have replaced many pans. I could not be happier with our selections. We received 3 "free" appliances. I opted for the multi-function cooker and two blenders (DD1 wanted one). I considered the countertop oven, but after seeing the size and, realizing how hot it would get, I reconsidered.
paddykk
4 years ago
Update: called ALL my credit card companies. Citi card is the best with regards to extended warranty - they will provide UPTO 7 years of warranty supplementing the manufacturer warranty. They cover whatever the mnufacturer warranty covers. You just need to keep the receipt and the warranty information.

@allison0704 - How did you end up with 3 freebies!!!!
Allison0704
4 years ago
Just the promotion they were having at the time! I purchased 48" Wolf Dual Fuel range, 36" fridge tower, 36" freezer tower and ASKO DW (they bundled with ASKO before Cove was released). I was shocked it was so easy to get the small appliances and they came quickly.
pennfire
4 years ago
"The only thing I do not like about the freezer is the ice maker - when you open the drawer to get ice, pieces that haven't dropped yet fall into the drawer below."

Ha! I agree. However, the joy of eliminating the thru door water and ice dispenser far exceeds my annoyance at errant ice cubes.
Michelle misses Sophie
4 years ago
@paddykk just be aware it's a limit of $10,000 per item, I believe (you should be able to go online and get a copy of your Citi card's benefits in PDF format - I did that and stuck a hardcopy in with my purchase receipt).

From my copy:

How Long are You Covered?

We will extend the manufacturer’s warranty for

an additional 24 Months. If You purchase an

extended warranty, Our coverage begins at the

expiration of that warranty. In the event of a

covered failure We will repair or replace the

item or reimburse up to the amount charged on

Your Citi Card and/or ThankYou Points

(excluding shipping and handling) or $10,000,

whichever is less. Total coverage up to a

maximum of 7 years from the purchase date.

Maximum Coverage per Item

Coverage is limited to the lesser of

the following:

■ The cost to repair or replace the item.

■ The purchase price of the item.

■ The amount charged to the Citi® Card

(including ThankYou® Points).

■ $10,000 per item.

We will decide if a covered failure will be repaired or replaced, or

whether You will be reimbursed up to the amount paid with Your

Citi Card and/or ThankYou Points. Items will be replaced with

those of like kind and quality. However, We cannot guarantee to

match exact color, material, brand, size or model.

Coverage only applies to the item that fails, not to any other

property that’s damaged by it.
paddykk
4 years ago
We are getting the 42" Subzero French Door refrigerator without the water dispenser (usually that is a cause for problems) but with an icemaker in the freezer section.

With the Citi warranty maybe I can take a chance with the Wolf E series double ovens!!! (I was and am still considering the Bosch Double ovens - although the handles won't match even if I go with the Pro handles on the Subzero or the GE Monogram double ovens because their tubular handles are the same as SubZero)

Pricewise Bosch is very affordable and comes out cheaper even without the $1000 promotion from Subzero!!

Decisions! Decisions!! Decisions!!!

@ Michelle misses Sophie Good idea - will print it out!! or ask them to mail me a copy!
Michelle misses Sophie
4 years ago
Which level Bosch are you looking at? I believe some have a max temperature of 450F, which might be an issue if you like to do pizza and artisan breads. Check the specs.
paddykk
4 years ago
@ Michelle misses Sophie I'm looking at the 800 Series or the Benchmark - didn't know that there was a temperature limit!
jen
4 years ago
@paddykk - I am considering the exact same ovens as you (Wolf, Bosch, BlueStar) and need to make a decision quickly. The Bosch Benchmark has a Pizza mode and it looks like the max temperature for the oven is 550 degrees F. Good luck with your decision making!
paddykk
4 years ago
@ jen - let me know what you decide!!! I looked at the Bluestar but was told that it cannot be installed flush - so not considering it - it protruded out quite a bit.

Goodluck to you too!!
jen
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
@paddykk - Thank you for pointing that out. I hadn't considered that the oven wouldn't be sitting flush. It doesn't seem like it would be too bad based on the drawings (about 3" out) and based on the photo posted here: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4661148/bluestar-wall-oven#n=3 . Also Jerry's photos: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2260746/consumer-reports-not-high-on-bluestar#n=175
B D
4 years ago
I'm going to be purchasing soon, so it's refreshing to read positive comments from Wolf owners.

@pennfire - How have you found the preheat time to be on the 36 incher? And cleaning the griddle?

@allison0704 Which model of the DF48 do you have?

Thanks!
paddykk
4 years ago
@jen - it’s looks fine but for us since we are going with a contemporary look and all flush appliances skipped on that one.
Michelle misses Sophie
4 years ago
@paddykk - I responded to your comment in the other thread. Benchmark is a much better choice in Bosch than the 800.
Allison0704
4 years ago
Bill D, we have the DF486G - 6 burners and infrared griddle. We had a griddle with our GE Monogram/last house and used it a lot (pancakes, grilled cheese, less messy things/no bacon).
B D
4 years ago
@Allison – Thank you very much. That's the model I'm probably getting for our remodel. Small family, so single griddle will be plenty of space.
pennfire
4 years ago
@Bill D

How have you found the preheat time to be on the 36 incher?

By preheat, do you mean the over? If so, its quick. I'll time it next time but it is very fast compared to my former (relatively new) GE electric wall oven and at least 3x as fast as my KitchenAid gas oven at our weekend cottage.

And cleaning the griddle?

Depends on what you cook and your description of "clean" I don't cook super messy foods on it like bacon. I use it for sausages (links and patties), chipped beef for cheese steaks, pancakes, keeping meats warm (ham steaks, sauteed meats, etc.)

My version of clean is a really good scrape down followed by either a deglaze with water and/or a scrubbing with a wad of wet paper towels. Thankfully, I have an excellent exhaust fan so copious amounts of steam aren't an issue. I treat it like a cast iron pan, I want it clean (free of food bits and excess grease) but not scrubbed to look brand new. I think its easy as long as you attend to the cleaning before letting it cool down.

My husband's version of clean would be the removal of the (very heavy) steel plate for a complete scrubbing and possibility a trip thru the dishwasher. I don't allow this and he is forced to avert his eyes when I clean the griddle.
B D
4 years ago
@pennfire – Thank you for the feedback! (I did indeed mean preheat for the oven.)
Missy Muffet
4 years ago
Robin K.... what appliances did you end up getting? Would love to hear what you decided, and how it has worked out.

I'm currently starting my kitchen remodel. I've owned Thermador double convection oven and gas cook top for 22 years. They have been maintenance free (never had a part or needed service for 22 years!). Thought I would get the same brand. Unfortunately, neighbors that remodeled and replaced with Thermador in past year to 3 years have had problems. Parts have been replaced, and now getting concerned as their warranty has expired or will be expiring soon. Sooo.... I started researching appliances.

On my appliance list:

Refrigerator = Classic Side by Side SZ (Owned one for 22 years, and love it!).

DW = Bosch or Miele? Still researching reliability and ease of getting service / maintenance, when there is a problem.

Single Wall Oven = 30" M Series Pro Built-In Single Oven, Model # SO30PM/S/PH

Convection Steam Oven = 30" M Series Pro CS # SCO30PM/S/PH

Gas Range Top or Gas Cook Top = Wolf 36" Sealed Burner / 6 burner or Wolf # SRT366 36"Pro Gas Cook Top.

Due to the discussions and law suits (2015 and 2018 both refer to double oven E series, but other postings seem to be having similar problem with L series ovens, M series ovens and ranges), it froze me in my final decision for the Ovens and Range Top / Cook Top. I am back to researching (more thoroughly) the oven - cook/range top.

I ran across this Yale Appliances blog yesterday, which seems very helpful (updated June 2019) https://blog.yaleappliance.com/best-luxury-appliance-brands-reviews-ratings

I don't live in Boston, but I am tempted to call and inquire about the Wolf built in ovens; get their recent consumer experiences.

Thank you for starting this post! Perfect timing for me!
paddykk
4 years ago
@missy Muffet - what wall ovens did you end up with? Thanks.
Allison0704
4 years ago
Anyone posting in this thread (or not, LOL) that has installed Wolf range with blue lining had any chipping issues since this thread started? Or involvement in the Class Action Lawsuit I saw linked on House in another thread?
Chuck Morton
3 years ago
STAY AWAY FROM MONOGRAM!!! NOTHING BUT PROBLEMS ON OUR NEW $10K RANGE
Jeanine Lester
3 years ago
I have had the chipping in 3 Wolf dual fuel ranges in 2 years between 2018 and 2020. If someone thinks they don’t have the chipping problem in theirs, ask them to take a wet paper towel along the bottom near the door when the oven is cool. If they see no blue chips I’d be shocked. When you have it in 3 of 3 it isn’t rare or a coincidence.

Subzero-Wolf or GE Monogram

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