Landscape front entry (before neighbour installs artificial grass)

4 years ago

Hi Everyone,

My neighbour is going to install artificial grass on his front lawn at the end of July. I'll likely continue the same artificial grass installation onto my property since we share a property line and I want to avoid a line where the natural and artificial grass meet. We'll keep natural grass between the sidewalk and road.

The challenge is that I'd also like to redo my front walk. It makes sense that I complete the hardscaping and final landscaping layout before the artificial grass is installed (since artificial grass can't be moved easily once it's installed!). Yardvaark has helped me in another thread to come up with some ideas on a larger and more practical interlock front walkway -- I really like it!

Yardvaark also created a 3D sketch of what the front could look like with a new walkway and revised plantings:

I took detailed measurements and drew out a template (to scale) for my property.

I've also created a clean version of the template:

FYI, the artificial grass will not be installed between the houses -- it will only go as far as the rear of my neighbour's porch. What I'm looking for are some suggestions on the new walkway, mulch, and plantings that:

Considers removing the two small ornametal trees to make room for the new interlock walkway
Ideally minimizes the amount of artificial grass needed on my portion of the lawn (i.e. by placing mulch beds and plantings where appropriate)
Ideally uses low-maintenance plants

Thanks!

Bryan

Featured Answer

PRO

Yardvaark

4 years ago

last modified: 4 years ago

" the contrast is exaggerated by the fact that my grass is completely dead ..." If you recall ... weren't you supposed to make it beautiful ...?? :-)

A good point is made by Lizziesma. All concrete products wear and weather over time. If exposed agg will be exposed to salt, you might want to consider something solid. (Once too much surface concrete wears away from exposed agg., the aggregate begins to disconnect. While it takes time, once it starts coming of in patches, well, it's not pretty.

I would consider a border pattern arranged like this, with the border being no less than 8" width or as much as 12":

I would suggest that the field be the darker of the two colors and the border be the lighter. The darker field helps cut down on sun glare when days are bright and the lighter border helps make the edge more visible in low light.

I remind again, MAKE SURE to inspect some samples of the contractor's stamped conc. if that's what you use. Lately, we've heard some sad stories of people being less than happy with the results. IMO, the contractor is everything on this material and you need to find a really good one, as there are a lot of ways it can be botched. Have you considered concrete pavers? They seem safer since the character of the material is already established.

Given that your house is a collection of greys, I'd be inclined to add color to the drive/walk. Since the material is still up in the air, it's hard to talk about color without being potentially misleading. If it were pavers, I'd be thinking red since that always looks nice with greys. Whatever you use, you'll need to get samples of the actual material in order to appraise it with your house.

Do you have a good picture of the front porch stoop and steps and at least the lower half the door?

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Comments (24)

PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Bryan, you are ahead of the game. Even though having a base plan is essential in working out design issues, few people show up with one. A few create one, but most try to do without, which handicaps them greatly, if not "fatally."

I found one more feature that should be added to the plan, and that is the porch post, located at its outer corner. If you would, please create one more, even cleaner, version of the plan -- one with all the color removed so that there remains only black lines -- and add the porch post to it. (It would show as a small, solid black square.)

Does your neighbor have a new landscape plan for his front yard? It's always good to know what's happening in the neighbor's yard when you're planning your own, especially when it is close. Given the proximity, it might serve you both well if a planting bed appeared shared at the property line, even if it was literally half his and half yours. It's something to think about while you're working out the hardscape.

As I showed in one of the sketches you've already added, I think you should make the new step and landing the full width of the opening between the garage wall and porch post. Currently, the walk and step would serve only one person at a time. Widening them would look a lot more inviting if it could serve two people at once. It would also add a feel of luxuriousness if you would make the step tread a depth between 16" to 18". Have you given any thought to materials? Is this going to be DIY or will you have a pro do the work?
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
J Williams
4 years ago
Artificial grass only passes when real grass is actually green, what about winter?
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Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
@Yarvaark,

Thanks! It's a bit of work to make the template, but I can see how it will make my job easier now :) I'm not able to modify the original post, so here are three additional versions that incorporate the changes that you requested.

My neighbour has no plans to change his landscaping -- he'll keep it as is for the artificial grass install.

I definitely agree with your suggestion about the full-width landing and step! One complication is that my porch is 8.75' wide but the widest natural stone that one interlock installer could bring in was 7.00' wide. He didn't mention how deep it would be (but my current step is 12" deep).

I was thinking about having is professionally installed; however, both quotes I've received so far are $5000 CAD (which I'm not sure is reasonable for about 130 SQFT + step). I'm also not sure if they could complete it before the artificial grass installation. This is the drawing they provided:

The material they suggested was Techno Bloc Blu 60MM Slate Collection Slab (Chestnut Brown). I'm not sure if I want to go wtih a slate or smooth look though (especially since the slate would be more difficult for clearing snow):

Thanks again! :)
lizziesma
4 years ago
How about exposed aggregate?
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Bryan, as background information, be sure to check out the thread running concurrently on the Landscape Design Forum titled, "Stamped Concrete didn’t turn out as expected". To cut to the chase, the mistake made was not checking out installed samples of the subcontractor's work prior to hiring him. There are vast differences in the quality of people's work.

Here's an example of the layout I was suggesting in your prior thread. Previously, I showed a tall shrub at the left of your porch, but there is not room to do this (unless it was in a shared bed at the property line. In the future, the big tree is going to put the kibosh on the idea anyway.) There is room for a small bed (probably annuals) surrounding the porch post and a larger one (probably perennials) surrounding the tree.

Insofar as materials go, have you ruled out concrete as a possibility? It's a "flexible" material with innumerable treatments (scoring, surface or integral coloring, grinding, troweling, stamping, etc.) that can be applied to it in order to increase its decorative potential. Because of the small job size, I would consider 6" nominal thickness (5 1/2" actual) for hellish durability, with a scoring pattern as shown by the purple lines. I would also consider carborundum grinding (but not polishing) because the look is like terrazzo, which looks like stone. The step could even be ground on its exposed sides if it were precast. I think even plain, scored, trowelled concrete could be nice and major improvement over what's there now.
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
@Yardvaark,

I don't think stamped concrete is the path that I want to take. I live in Canada and I've seen problems with the surface looking really bad after a few years (pitting?).

I haven't ruled out regular concrete if it would be more cost effective and durable. I never heard of "carborundum grinding" before and can't really find pictures of it online -- does it go by a different name or do you have a link to a picture? If it has a bit of a stone-like look then that could work very well! I just want to avoid the look of a big concrete pad at my front entrance. I know that my neighbour wants to do a new concrete driveway, so we could maybe combine our jobs to make it worthwhile for the contractor :) Depending on the cost, I might be able to just redo my driveway in concrete as well.

Thanks for the layout, I think it looks great! For the driveway, the only thing that I'd consider changing is that I'd align the right driveway border so that it's in line with the foundation of the house (rather than extending out beyond the foundation). Of course, this would require that I redo my driveway. The picture below shows what I mean. In this case, I'd still be gaining about 18" of width to my driveway (which is perfect for my needs) due the the left border (which would be installed in a space that's currently not paved).

In terms of the landscaping, do you think there's something that I could do to reduce the square footage of artificial turf that's required? Or alternatively, do you think I should stick with natural grass? But then we come back to the problem of the artificial-to-natural "line" that I was really trying hard to avoid (and it's a concern of my neighbour's too). But I think you mentioned before that a mulch bed on the property line wouldn't really work well due to a lack of space?

I think I'm also going to be running into timing issues again since it will be difficult to get all of the hardscaping and landscaping completed before the neighbour installs the grass in late-July to early-August (which would continue onto my property if I go that route). Unfortunately, if I go with artificial grass, it seems like I'm going to have to install it before the hardscaping (since hardscaping appointments are booking into mid-August at the earliest). But I suppose I can complete the mulch layouts before late-July. I really wish my neighbour would delay the grass install until next year -- everything seems backwards. I'd rather do the hardscaping first, mulch second, and grass last :S

Thanks again for all of your help!
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
"... the only thing that I'd consider changing is that I'd align the right driveway border so that it's in line with the foundation of the house ..." And that sounds even better!

The only logical order is to do hardscape first as its installation is generally destructive to surroundings. Or, so much care must be taken to the surroundings that it adds to cost.

I would put out of my mind the idea that artificial turf will be placed seamlessly in both yards. The seam can be an almost invisible pinstripe of dark metal, or a crisp and snappy pencil-thin line of glistening aluminum, either of which would look fine. And the idea that there might be different colors or textures at either side of the line is no more bothersome than there being different colors and textures in the homes at either side of the line. An even better example comes in a conglomerate of row houses that all have a line separating their differences. It's just not bothersome or offensive. I think it is a worry that requires no solution beyond counseling. Not sure if I can help you overcome it, though. :-) I would throw out the idea that your's and neighbor's projects will be time-coordinated ... and then be at peace. And for the same reason I think it's -- a nothing -- if your neighbor has artificial grass and yours is real.

As far as reducing the overall amount of grass, it's a mathematical equation the balances with the size of the other things: walk, drive and beds. You could enlarge the bed around the tree. Or change its shape. But it would still need to be a bed that claims to exist on account of supporting the tree. It could not carelessly and lopsidedly scoot over toward the property line without someone questioning, "Why?" The walk seems to have a right size range that can't enlarge much without a tree, porch or house getting in its way. Maybe it could grow a foot longer, but that's about it. I constantly bitch about walks being too small, but I don't think, in the plan above, it is in danger of reading that way.

The idea of a "mulch bed" .... in the first place, I never -- not even ever! -- have the idea of a standalone mulch bed. IMO, mulch in a bed is a temporary covering until the plants in the bed cover the ground. Mulch only is a PITA in that it needs periodic replenishment and is generally a barren look in comparison to what plants can provide. What looks bad in landscapes are things that mechanically don't or can't work and things that are out of scale or proportion. There is not room in your yard for anything but the skinniest of landscape beds if it has to go between the property line and the other objects that win out on account of necessity or preexistence. You earlier confessed to not being artistically prone (in spite of coughing up that perfectly gorgeous base plan!) but there has to be a good balance of white space relative to the objects in the composition, and white space in this case is the turf.

Here's generally the look of ground plain concrete:

It's look can vary according to the aggregate and the substrate mix. Grinding with carborundum stones is fairly old school and machines can be found for rent most places. In comparison with diamond grinding, it is slow and goofs are not easy to come by. Diamond, on the other hand, is aggressive and mistakes are hard to avoid, unless one is a professional with experience. Because it's slow, it could be costly to grind a whole drive. But a walk or "trim" is doable. (I could see a concrete drive that is bordered with ground concrete and walk.) Because all concrete weathers, ground concrete is usually sealed periodically in order to protect it longer from aging. I have no idea what services are available in your area or what you might consider doing DIY, but you'll need to factor that into the equation.
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
Hi Yardvaark,

Thanks again for your excellent feedback, and sorry for my late reply! And also thanks for informing me on the importance of "white space" and the purpose of mulch -- that all makes a lot of sense!

Based on everything so far, I think I've reached the following decisions:
- I'd like to modify my hardscaping and landscaping like what is shown in the drawing above
- To save on cost, I'll use concrete for the walkway instead of pavers
- I'll also pave my driveway with concrete at the same time as the walkway (since it needs to be repaved soon anyway)
- The concrete for the driveway could be a regular broom finish, but then I could trim the driveway and walkway with something a little more decorative (ground, stamped, etc.)
- There's no way that I'll be able to complete my hardscaping/landscaping before my neighbour's artificial grass installation in late July
- Because I want my hardscaping and landscaping completed before the artificial grass installation, I won't install artificial grass at the same time as my neighbour. I've contacted the artificial grass company to see what my installation options are if installing artificial grass after my neighbour (say, in the Fall)
- I'll have a couple of months to see what the front yard looks like with half artificial and half natural grass before deciding whether or not I'll also install artificial grass on my half. Based on your description, I'm hoping that it won't look as bad as I imagine and I'll just keep natural grass :-) My rough estimate is that I'd have about 250 SQFT of grass, which would be pretty costly in artificial (i.e. ~$4000 CAD).
Thanks again!
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
If you do any stamped concrete, be sure to find someone who knows how to do it well. And inspect their work before committing.

As long as your grass itself looks good, it will look fine next to your neighbor's artificial.
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Hi again! I put this project on hold because I came to terms with the fact that I wouldn't install artifical grass at the same time as my neighbour. My neighbour's artifical grass has now been installed, and truthfully, the stark contrast between our properties is a little offputting. I'll take a photo and post it in the next couple of days -- I'm not home much when it's light outside :P With that said, the contrast is exaggerated by the fact that my grass is completely dead and needs to be resodded. Also, for some reason the trim on the artificial is not discreet at all -- it's black plastic paver edges, raised 1", and even has the UPC stickers showing :S Pictures will explain it better later :P

I'm now considering the hardscaping for my property. My nieghbour used a contractor to do a broom-finish concrete driveway and it looks great. I'm thinking of something a little more decorative for my property -- perhaps exposed aggregate with a stamped concrete border. The price they charge for exposed aggregate and stamped concrete (i.e. $11 CAD/SQFT) seems pretty reasonable. I have a few questions:

1.) How would you design the border for the walkway component? Should the entire walkway be stamped concrete, or should it be exposed aggregate with a stamped concrete border (for a seamless look from the driveway)? In my mind, I believe the the latter would look better (and is somewhat in line with the line drawing that you created).

2.) I need a single 9ft stair for my entry -- should it be made out of stamped concrete, exposed aggregate, or something else entirely?

3.) Should I be adding a layer of exposed aggregate or stamped concrete on the surface of my porch?

4.) What colours of exposed aggregate and stamped concrete would look best with my property?

Thanks!
lizziesma
4 years ago
While we love our exposed aggregate patio, if you are located where you have to shovel snow, I wonder how it holds up?
Bryan thanked lizziesma
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
Hopefully, you have removed some lower limbs from the tree by now. :-)
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
Thanks again for your insight!

Concrete Material:

I was considering concrete (instead of concrete pavers) because it's more cost effective than pavers. I really like the look of pavers but for a small pathway alone, I was received multiple quotes that all exceeded $5000 CAD. In contrast, I can have the entire driveway and pathway finished in stamped concrete for about $9000 CAD. With concrete, I also wouldn't have to deal with weeds growing between pavers.

I understand that salt can cause wear on the concrete, but in the four years I have been here I've never felt the need to use salt. I do use a snowblower in the winter (for big snowsotrms) and a plastic shovel.

In walks around my neighbourhood I've seen a couple of exposed aggregate driveways that look a little "worn down". With that said, I'm not sure how (if at all) they were maintained or what the installation quality was like, but it does cause me worry about exposed aggregate though. I've also seen local driveways that are completely finished in Stamped Concrete and they all look great. I tried walking on the Stamped Concrete when they were wet and they didn't seem slippery like I was expecting. At this point, I'm leaning towards 100% stamped concrete (for visual appeal at the expense or extra maintenance) or a simple broom finish with a stamped concrete border (for some visual appeal but lower maintenance). I'm interested in your thoughts :) Certainly I would take a look at some of hte contractor's stamped concrete driveways beforehand.

Border Pattern:

I really like your border pattern -- that's exactly what I thought would look the best! Thanks for drawing it out for me so that it's easy to communicate with concrete contractors! It shouldn't be any problem to make the border between 8" and 12"

Concrete Shades:

I know that you suggested the driveway be a darker colour with a lighter border (for glare and night visibility), but would it be awful to reverse this if I go 100% stamped concrete? My rationale is that the tinting in dark concrete can fade over time, so I'd prefer the main portion to be a lighter. Visually, I tend to like the look of light driveways with darker borders as well. Of course, if I go with a broom finish with a stamped border then the borders would certainly be darker than the nearly-white broom finish.

Concrete Colours:

If I go with 100% stamped concrete, I don't might the idea of adding some colour as you suggested; however, I'm just not a huge fan of red driveways for some reason.

Front Stoop:

Here's a picture of the front stoop that you requested :)

Tree Limbs:

No sorry, I still haven't trimmed my front tree yet :P I wanted to read up on how to do it properly first :)

Thanks!!
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
FYI, here are some photos showing the artificial grass and my neighbour's broom-finish concrete driveway. My grass is REALLY dead, so I think this is as offensive as the transition is ever going to look :P I'm not sure that the artificial grass installer used the most discreet trim possible -- it appears to be the same plastic trim that you'd use for stone pavers. I don't think the transition would look as bad if I had healthy new sod. I'd also have the options of continuing the artificial grass on my property or installing some groundcover plants by my new walkway after I get all my hardscaping sorted out :)
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
"I wanted to read up on how to do it properly first."

Remove some bottom limbs :-)

Hi Bryan. I don't have time now to address your questions. Will get back to you tonight or tomorrow morning.
J Williams
4 years ago
You could try a couple of things for your lawn: give it a good rake out, sprinkle some compost over everything, reseed and water. Also keep the mower height high. It’s normal for lawn to brown a little at this time of year and your neighbours lawn looks really odd with a bluish cast if it’s any consolation.
lizziesma
4 years ago
We have a new brushed concrete drive (mid Michigan) and it’s very light. Glaringly bright in the midday sun. I think either stamped concrete or traditional will look good. And, your soon to be pampered grass will look great, even in the outlawn...
Bryan thanked lizziesma
lizziesma
4 years ago
IMO, that turf edging is very unattractive. Is this how it’s supposed to look finished?
PRO
Novel Remodeling
4 years ago
Artificial grass is a great way of reducing water consumption for your yard. We recommend it more often than traditional SOD Installation. Why spend extra on landscaping when you can go low maintenance landscape design that will help you reduce your overall costs?

https://www.novelremodeling.com/drought-landscaping-losangeles
Anna (6B/7A in MD)
4 years ago
We have just the basic gray concrete driveway, which turns out to be quite light. It is GLARING in the sun and you have to wear sunglasses or squint. Get it colored, I wish I had as now I'm waiting for my 3 month old driveway to age.
Bryan thanked Anna (6B/7A in MD)
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
Apparently your neighbor's irrigation system is working and yours is not :-) Kidding aside, your grass looks like it needs just generally better care ... watering, edging, dethatching, etc.... and eventually, more light as the tree grows.

That is so cool to have the barcodes on the neighbor's edge restraint. Will be a great way to help future archeologists in your area research people of our time. :-) Meanwhile, I'd slap a brick/paver mowing strip along that edge, matching its height, and then feather the grade on your side, by adding a little topsoil, to the top of the mowing strip. The grass will easily grow through it to the new height.

When you do the drive, widen/flare it enough at the street to meet where the curb becomes full height.

I don't have an objection to stamped concrete as long as the installer is well qualified. (Too many novices have to cut their teeth somewhere and need to be avoided.) Example.

"I tend to like the look of light driveways with darker borders as well." That's going to make the prettier driveways harder to recognize! :-) Having more experience with pavers, I can't speak knowledgeably of fading issues of stamped concrete. Maybe someone who has more experience with it will know and can chime in.

I once did a commercial patio where they were trying to cut the budget. We ended up with UNCOLORED stamped concrete. It was surrounded by a 12" wide plain border and the field was stamped with basketweave brick. It was quite handsome and vastly dressier than plain, unadorned concrete. A side benefit was that there would never be issues with chipping either (which if you've seen stamped concrete that has had a fair amount of chipping or surface wear, it can bring the look down.)
Bryan thanked Yardvaark
Bryan
Original Author
4 years ago
My grass is in a really sorry state, but I'll worry about that in the spring -- my entire yard in the back needs to be ripped out and resodded since it's now 95% weeds :S

I like the look of your pavers to border my neighbour's property! That's something I could do next year as well. I've walked around the neighbourhood and seen a couple of houses that used groundcover plants in the front yard that I really liked -- I might do something similar and then simply install artificial grass to match into my neighbour's "grass" where I don't have groundcover plants. I think that could look good while minimizing the cost of expensive artificial turf. I guess I can worry about the groundcover layout after figuring our my hardscaping?

Thanks for the suggestion on flaring the driveway at the curb!

Good point on the dark borders -- I never thought that it would take away from a stamped driveway. I suppose that if I simple do a broom-finish concrete driveway then it would make sense to go with a darker stamped concrete border?

I'm really intrigued by your idea of uncoloured stamped concrete! Was this concrete patio also not sealed (i.e. it would be the same grip as maintenance as a regular broom finish concrete surface)? If it's uncoloured, then I presume that any chips or surface wear wouldn't really be noticeable because the concrete is consistently coloured throughout and is also not sealed? Do you happen to have any pictures of this look? Could I use any stamped pattern that I want? I'm just wondering why this isn't more common -- maybe because it doesn't really lower the cost much and people prefer the colour and shine of a normal stamped concrete finish?

Thanks!
PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago
The patio was done a long time ago so the pictures I had were paper. They are either lost or packed away in boxes that haven't been opened in 20-something years. (So it is not time to open them yet.) :-) You are correct in that any chipping would not show a different color underneath. And also that, because it was plain concrete, it was unsealed like any concrete driveway. It isn't more common because no one is promoting it. They are promoting color. Yes, you could use any pattern for the field you wish, but be careful ... you don't want to end up wearing striped pants and a plaid shirt. The brick on your house seems to have a distinct organic pattern to it. For the paving, something that presents a staid, simple look seems like a better choice to me. I would go with something geometric (standard brick patterns; ashlar stone patterns, etc.) before going with anything like flagstone, cobblestone or any busy or complex patterns. Also, consider how it is to walk on the surface. The more texture, the worse it is, IMO. The brick field got a light horsehair broom finish and the 12" border got a troweled finish. It was enough to set the two apart. (I do not think I'd care for concrete with a dark border ... unless the border looked (or was) something like brick or stone. Not just a color and plain. The horsehair broom gives a much better finish than standard brooms (what you see everywhere) which are fairly coarse.

You can think about planting when the hardscape plan is committed to.