@Shannon_WI Yes, please! :)

ditto

Yes, how bout we all turn this thread back around to autopsy tables and
the derth of glorious kitchens in expensive homes? It was going so well
:)

Autopsy tables really did make me giggle- I don't get the huge
expanses of expensive stone that a lot of folks can't/won't actually
use in the kitchen though. It's kind of like opting to have nice
jewelry, but don't want to wear it in case something bad happens.

I think part of the underwhelming kitchen thing is because of what a lot
of us are lead to believe is the upscale design/display kitchen, and
that it's a necessity. Maybe trend stuff? Not everyone wants to actually
use a display kitchen. Or keep one up when having their day to day
lives. Or wants to put the bucks that way when they could spend it
otherwise. And honestly, because each kitchens taste is ones own- and
the hardest/most expensive to change if you don't want someone else's
taste.

And I think earlier commentary of how a mil home in some places is a much cheaper home elsewhere. If my rural house now was plopped in Chicago where I used to live- the 3 lots worth of space for the house footprint in land there would cost more than what my house and the large land lot did here. And probably the old rambling farmhouse torn down to build a lot of other...
I know my kitchen would underwhelm the beejeebers out of
most folks, because it did. It was one of the reasons it was on the
market for a while. Delightful late 50-s's, maybe to mid 60'sish crackle orange counters.
Hardwood cabinets and drawer inserts built in behind the lower doors.
Solid as hell... and custom built for someone of my short height who
used their kitchen.

After reading all these posts, I've decided to give my two cents. Some people love their kitchens the way they are. Some people hate their kitchens and remodel them. Kitchen remodels are expensive and some people don't see an upside to spending their money on a kitchen remodel. Some people with, or without a lot of money don't like change and others prefer to spend their money on education, cars, boats or vacations. It's like car buying. Some like buying a new car every year and some keep their cars until they stop running. You just can't pigeonhole everyone. We all have our own priorities.

Personally, I needed a large and very functional kitchen when my kids were growing up. I cooked three meals a day from scratch for my 4 kids and their friends, and had many dinner parties. Now that I'm a widow and my kids are grown, my kitchen isn't as important to me as I rarely cook more than a few basic items. For me, I like timeless decorating and need good and reliable appliances, easy to maintain counters and cabinetry that won't go out of style every year. No crazy backsplashes or flooring, but thoughtful and enduring finishes. Time changes our priorities, wants and needs.

Home builders now realize that if they provide a good enough sized kitchen space, with reasonably good finishes and appliances, they don't need to go all out. Homeowners needs and wants vary, so the value to the builder is in providing a basically blank canvas for their buyers. Then it appeals to a broader base of buyers...those who want to add high end finishes and those who are just fine with what they get. Again, this is just my opinion.

Wow Jennifer. You went from decorating/kitchen choices all the way to the Holocaust.

You also know nothing about the people you see posting here, who they are, where they came from, what they have achieved, what they have endured, etc, etc?

I know Houzz can be a bit confusing with the shared posts, but if you
want to talk politics you should go to Hot Topics. This area is for
decorating/kitchens topics.

Janice Jones made a lot of good points. Life changes and ebbs. As for builders and those that buy up houses and then

redo them; Most of them don't know anything about cooking and what constitutes a good kitchen either up scale or ordinary.

The buzzwords are " Stainless appliances and granite counters." as if that makes a wonderful kitchen. You can have a fantastic kitchen with melamine counters.

As for autopsy tables, the Utah house has one of those but it's even worse than a regular autopsy table since it isn't rectangular but odd shaped. I can't reach across to clean the counter. I get tired from walking around and around. My new friends think it is the most wonderful/beautiful kitchen Arghhhh. I think it was done for show. A lot of fou fou and totally disfunctional. I can't wait to remodel it. , down to the studs.

I will donate everything that Habitat for Humanity wants, or anyone else for that matter. It will keep it out of the land fill and someone who doesn't have a lot of wherewithal will get some nice cabinets and counters. However, I will NOT feel guilty on spending $$$ or will it be $$$$ for my new kitchen. We worked hard and saved our money and we will spend it as we see fit! As for worrying about finishes and damage, I'm a firm believer in using what we have.

We take care of our things but they are meant to be used and if something gets damaged, ce'st la vie! Life is shorter than you think. Live it to it's fullest.

Inga

Obviously when you remodel things are going in the landfill. HFH won't take most of it. I've tried repeatedly. Some locals who go to Mexico regularly will take a truckload sometimes. Besides that your best bet is putting it on Craig's List or Nextdoor for free.

My neighbor had a lot of tiles. Habitat had a 3 week window for pick up Salvation Army came and got them. I'm hopeful someone will want what we are going to get rid of.

chispa said

I am looking at houses in Florida and I've never seen so many awful kitchens, even in newer homes. Builders there seem to love angled walls which are terrible for kitchens and furniture placement.

Chipsa, our FL house is for sale. Fantastic kitchen, huge lot on the open bay:))

OP asked why high end houses don't have high end kitchens.

My original response was a poke of fun at a 40+ year old woman who doesn't know how to cook buying a 14K range because she wants to learn how to cook.

my follow up was a simple question.

"Is the high end kitchen really worth the money if you don't have a true passion for cooking."

Chapa responded with:

"I don't think we should be dictating what people should buy based on their passion! If I'm paying for a high end house, then I expect a high end kitchen in it. Whether I cook for 14 every day, or just heat up take-out, is irrelevant."

Sorry folks, couldn't resist the temptation to respond to this emotional outburst and have a bit of fun watching the whirl wind.

Back to the OP's original post, someone who is financially savvy will not over spend on the kitchen.

Renovations are either to
1. Repair non functional items or correct a non functional layout to the kitchen (necessary) or

2. make cosmetic changes (not necessary), but adds some level of joy for the owner.

The ROI for kitchen remodels is generally around 60%. So for every $100 you spend you increase the price of your home by $60.00 and you either flush $40.00 down the toilet or live in the home long enough to gain $40.00 worth of joy from the results of your renovation.

That $14K range most likely will only bring about 20% ROI, unless it is typical for the neighborhood to have $14k ranges. The value of the home is not determined by the individual appliances and finishes, it is based on the price per sq ft and the general condition of the home in comparison with other similar homes in the same general location.

Jennifer - That's not the way it works around here. Everyplace is a little different so its hard to generalize. I'm not saying you'd get a big return on a $14k range; but here its driven by supply and demand and lifestyle. And a lot of emotional buyers that know it when they see it. Most home purchases are decided by women who want a beautiful kitchen and master bath.

Jennifer, but not everyone cares about resale or ROI for every thing they do in a house or every thing they do in life.

Sometimes someone just thinks a $14k range looks pretty and that is what they want for the last 20 years of their life. That person might not spend money on fancy vacations or expensive purses and that $14K range is what "sparks joy" in their life. Life isn't all about ROI.

As far as emotional outbursts ... I think you win that one with making a correlation between home remodeling choices and slavery and the holocaust!

ifoco - what general area is the FL house in?

This is one of my most favorite pictures of all times, and I think it speaks for itself...

I can't even imagine the back pains Julia Child must have experienced...

SW on the Gulf side. Fishing, sailing, dolphins laid back

Specifically, St James City the southern tip of Pine Island

I think doing things for resale is one the most misguided reason to do anything. How on earth will you know who is interested in your house and for what reason and if and when. Who are you living for and doing things; some unknown future buyer! Waste of time in my opinion. Save for tomorrow, live for today is my motto!

Chispa - I agree with you that no one should dictate what other people should buy, nor should every decision be made on the basis of some future, intangible "resale" value. Nonetheless, I think it's fine to point out that there are downsides to making expensive investments in "pretty" things, especially if it's just to keep up with the Joneses or the latest trends. We all should do the occasional bit of self-reflection about our priorities, financial and otherwise, and make sure the decisions we make that involve big investments in money and/or time are fully informed.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that this particular conversation didn't take long to provide yet another example of Godwin's Law in play.

Yep, Godwin's Law indeed.

Where I live, 1.5 mil is a tear down. It's all about location, so when we decided to renovate our kitchen, we just did what we wanted, because we wanted something that worked for us. We have no plans to sell, but even if we did, the next buyer is going to change it to their liking. I refuse to try to guess what a future owner of our house wants.

I can't believe I've been on the Internet all these years and had never heard of Godwin's Law. Thanks for the education, jmm1837.

^^Me too! Never heard of Godwin’s law before this, that is so interesting! And, evidently, true!

I have never heard of it either and just googled it. Very interesting!

jmm

Remodeling a kitchen buying a new car or doing anything like that IS NOT an investment it is an

EXPENSE. Pretty things are an expense. An investment is something that hopefully will gain value in time. The minute you use those fancy appliances, they are worth very little...remember expense. Same with cars and anything else.

I think that phrase started years ago with "investment dressing"...some catchy marketing ploy. I cringe every time I hear about investments when they are expenses. How much do you think your clothes are worth the minute you wear them once, three dollars at the Salvation army. Your car after you drive it off the lot etc etc.

I will now get off my soap box :))

We downsized 2 years ago into an over 55 community and before moving into the home we gutted the kitchen, 3 bathrooms and removed a wall. We did not consider it an investment, we will never recover 1/2 of the cost. High end items are like buying jewelry - you buy it because you like it. If by some chance they add to resale or help the house sell quicker - then that's just an added bonus.

We put in the same higher end appliances and custom cabinets that we had in our previous home and thoroughly enjoyed - a BlueStar range, 42" Sub Zero, Thermador and Bosch. We donated the original cabinets to Habitat to Humanity. They rejected the 13 year old appliances due to age.

Straying back to the original question, I think "expensive home" is a meaningless term unless it is specific to a specific location - as has been discussed in multiple posts.

Also "high end" is a term of no particular meaning - does high end mean costly materials or does it go beyond the surface and analyze the functionality of the design?

Assuming "high end" only deals with the aesthetic aspect of a kitchen, I think like Occam's razor, the reason generally is fairly obvious

An older home in a high cost living area (i.e. West Los Angeles, Encino etc in Los Angeles; Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco and its environs, homes were built for working class or middle class people years ago and the kitchens and bathrooms reflected that. Suburban homes in New Jersey also reflect what were considered to be gracious homes when built in the 1960's or 1970's - not even dealing with the closer in suburbs of Long Island which were settled after WW II. The cost of housing in desirable locations such as these has escalated far beyond inflation. Despite the seemingly high price tag, these are not what most people in who actually LIVE in those areas think of as expensive homes - they are the least expensive homes available if you want to live there. Unless the house was flipped, the kitchens in that area would have either the original kitchen - or a kitchen that was remodeled 20 years ago. Perhaps there would have been some minor cosmetic upgrades like a new counter over the existing cabinetry.

However, there seems to be a lot of new homes being built in relatively low cost areas (the Midwest, South) that have kitchens that look expensive - or at least in terms of what I see when I watch House Hunters. Builder grade new builds in these less expensive areas are on trend in terms of having white cabinets - an island and stainless steel appliances and the newest seem to also have white quartz counters. However, though they look expensive superficially, they generally have "low end" design as most of them don't have lower cabinets with drawers except for one stack and there is a microwave/hood over the stainless stove - and I am willing to bet the stove is a fairly low end model. I would also imagine the actual construction of the cabinets and hardware is fairly low end as well.

Actually, ifoco , a kitchen remodel is considered by the IRS to be a capital expense. Buying car is not. For instance, adding plantation shutters is considered a capital investment because it's permanent and adds value, like a remodel. When you sell, you can deduct the expense from your capital gains to lower your obligation. A family car is a depreciating item like a mobile home, and doesn't qualify as such.

One assumption the OP is also making is that the people living in these so-called "expensive" homes actually have enough liquidity to do a full scale kitchen remodel but just aren't. If these are highly desirable neighborhoods, the owners might've barely scraped enough money together for a down payment and may still be trying to get out from under PMI. That on top of private school tuitions and HCOL may make kitchen renos unattainable for them.

" However, though they look expensive superficially, they generally have "low end" design as most of them don't have lower cabinets with drawers except for one stack"

Helen,

I take it your a designer. Would you mind explaining to me how a kitchen is "low end" because

it doesn't have all lower cabinet drawers. So designing drawers for the bottom cabinets is a high end design? It sounds rather arbitrary from my perspective. Shouldn't you as a designer give the

customer what they want not what current fashion dictates in your world of design.

Inga

Drawers are expensive. Drawers also make things a lot more functional. A deep cabinet that rarely gets used can become the most useful cabinet in the whole kitchen, if you add drawers.

So, as a first approximation, the number of drawers in the lower cabinets (and to some degree in uppers) is a good proxy for how functional the overall kitchen design is. A kitchen designer that bothered spending the extra money on drawers probably also paid attention to some of the other little details. A designer who skipped the drawers probably cared more about appearances and overall cost, but not so much about functionality.

Yes, this is a really rough approximation and counter-examples are easy to find. But as a simple first test, it isn't half bad.

And just for the record, we put a ton of drawers into our lower cabinets, and we also made the cabinets extra deep. They are now super accessible and have great capacity. We do have uppers, but they hardly get used at all. A non-traditional cabinet configuration that heavily emphasizes usability is really fun to have.

Janice,

Aw yea the IRS. Of course you write off everything you put in the house after you sell to minimize capital gains and your car doesn't count; it's one of the worst "investments" :)). Most of the time, you don't make a "profit" when you sell if you take into account inflation and what it's going to cost for you to buy into a similar house. The IRS of course makes their own rules. They say you have capital gains and what are you gonna do? Pay them!

I was just trying to make a point that

everything and everyone refers to any purchase as an investment.

@ifoco - I think M explained it well. All things being equal, a kitchen without drawers or just the standard one drawer is going to be less expensive than the same kitchen with drawers in as many lower cabinets as possible. It's not an arbitrary aesthetic design decision or one that is trendy but one that is based solely on increased functionality.

For the sake of aesthetics, I put in some lower cabinets with roll outs (also an upgrade which may or may not be present in builder grade kitchens). They are much more functional than lower cabinets without roll outs but drawers are much more functional because there is only one action to open the drawer versus opening a door and rolling out the pull out.

FWIW, I am NOT a designer - I worked with a designer who helped me balance aesthetics and functionality. Some of the stuff I added for functionality were my own ideas like my toe kick step stools :-).

I live in Texas where the real estate issues are nothing like the ones you have in Boston or San Diego. If you spend $1M on a home you get a lot!

I am remodeling my kitchen and I am really looking forward to the end result!! It is something that I have wanted for a very long time. I have no illusions that this is some kind of an investment--it is a treat. And I want to enjoy it.

Definitely some of these top end homes have kitchens that don't measure up to the house as a whole. That kind of bothers me too.

It all makes sense. My FL kitchen has some lower drawers in specific areas, one bank of drawers and all of the lower cabinets have pull outs which I think was extra which i like. I eliminated the one drawer over the lower cabinets. Mores space to store junk! I also had the counters set lower ergonomically better for me. I have a floor to ceiling storage area with roll outs. A friend said it's nice but wastes a lot of space. She wasn't impressed, who cares! She is right it does waste space but I like it for holding casseroles and other big and heavy stuff.

Having serious back issues, bending down to lift out 8 dinner plates from a drawer does not appeal to me. It's bad enough loading and unloading the dishwasher.

What is a toe kick step stool? Is that a little boost for vertically challenged people? That would be great for me at 5'4. Elaborate please.

In our area pricey houses don't have high end kitchens because they don't have to. Most of the ones that need updating sell pretty close to the ones with renovated kitchens and baths. Also a lot of buyers want to renovate things to their own liking. I personally have no interest in paying for someone else's renovation. I do think update houses here sell faster, though.

@ifoco - Toe kick step stool is a riser that is where the toe kick would be. It looks like a regular toe kick but has hardware so if I "kick" it, it comes out and there is a riser which is about the height of a normal toe kick. I have it below all my upper cabinets and since I am also short, it enables me to reach the top shelf without shlepping out a step stool.

Bill - I literally could have written this post! I wondered this too. Interesting thread to read!

The crappy kitchens are no indicator of property value - it really is Location, location, location. When I listed my home last fall and my realtor wanted to under price my home with a 'state of the art' kitchen that I actually used and loved. She used 'comps' in my area to determine the best price. The 'comps' had contractor grade kitchens or worse and horrid bathrooms. I pointed out my remodels were high end with quality finishes and appliances - she claimed that the comps had remodeled to a pleasing standard. I disagreed- she disagreed and we listed it at my lowest possible price I would accept. I endured 35 showings in 3 weeks and fired her when no offers came in. Feedback from viewings - They LOVED my kitchen and bath - but location seemed less desirable.

Re listed it at 10% more with new realtor and sold it for my price 2 weeks later!

Those other homes still sold with their kitchens and baths and were good values for starter homes. There really is a market for all budgets.

When I remodeled my kitchen and bath it was for my enjoyment and never thought about selling or the impact 'over improving' could have till issues surrounding my home neighborhood became unattractive for my enjoyment.

I will remodel some in my new home and will chose finishes that make me happy - it is your house and YOU should enjoy where you life as long as you live there.

@slsunrise - I wasn't sure how to frame the question without sounding like a jerk! But there have definitely been some great points made here. So surprised at how many people commented.

@Debora Broderson — Very true about location. And looking deeper into it, many of the homes I am referencing have sellers who bought decades ago — in some cases, 35+ years. Standards have changed since then, and I imagine many of those in my town in their 40s/50s have updated kitchens, but aren't selling, so you can't see them in those listings.

Very interesting thread!

We live in NJ, NYC suburbs. In our town, if a house on the market doesn’t have a renovated kitchen, the listing will get visibly less attention.

Many Prospective buyers here these days don’t want to renovate kitchens. Heck - they even complain about the paint colors. Some request as a condition of sale that the homeowner paint the house (the ubiquitous) gray & white.

Realtors tell me this is all a function of our location. Commute to NYC is only 30 minutes.

How soon will we see a shift here to a sellers’ market??

Of the homes I’ve seen, I cannot think of one in my “expensive” locale...North Shore, Long Island...that has been renovated in the past 6 years, without top of the line products. SZ, Wolf, Thermador, Miele, Bosch, marble, soapstone and granite are the norm. High end tiled backsplashes, on-site wood flooring, too.

What rpwoodard said above...exactly!

On the topic of drawers...Because I’ve been on this site since the old, old Gardenweb days ...going back to when Spike was in charge...I have drawers everywhere in my kitchen...even under the two sinks. My contractor thought I was nuts. “You’ll never know if you have a leak!” A water sensor solved that issue. The drawers were the best thing I did. They fit so much, especially the drawers under the large main sink-plastic wrap, tin foil, wax paper, backup rolls of paper towels, dish towels, cleaning products, large rolls of garbage bags...all without fumbling around in the cavernous cabinet, under the sink.

I had rollouts under the sink in sink in my last home. Vastly inferior to drawers.

Bay Area houses sell for well over asking with a mud floor and camp fire stove. Sarcastic, but true enough reflection of our market.

There are many ways to look at this discussion. First and foremost kitchen remodels are TOUGH-:

they cost a small fortune, no sink, no dishwasher, paper plates...etc no one is overly excited about having to remodel their kitchen so sometimes they just DONT. Maybe why you are seeing sub par/undwerwhelming kitchens-and when one considers moving they decide to let the new home owner do the work. Lots of variables here-New construction in the Bay Area-lots of fancy new kitchens with the latest techno appliances...very appealing to some. For some it is great to buy a place that can let you make it your own and within a reasonable budget...others may have no choice and have to purchase someone else's crappy design....never easy.

I found this thread because of a phenomenon that fascinates me---how really rich people do not do major remodeling the way that middle class people do. Case in point--anyone I've known more than twenty years has done their kitchen twice. That being said, I found this listing in my old hometown. Turns out, I went to school with the daughter. These folks bought this house new in 1970 (over 4,000 square feet, in the "estate section" of town). The property taxes are $20,000. Now in their early 80's, they are selling this home--untouched--it's like a time capsule. It's a beautiful home with expensive finishes put in at the outset. I've seen these homes before, but this time, I know the story. Sure enough--I found another home on the same street--huge, expensive place....with the three original 1950's bathrooms intact. I'm thinking that (maybe old money?) rich folks are more discriminating in how they spend their money than we think. I remember trick-or-treating in this area and being disappointed in the cheap candy they gave away and my mother commenting that "the rich don't get rich by giving their money away." Maybe Mom was on to something. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/72-Harrow-Dr-Colonia-NJ-07067/39202643_zpid/

I also remember reading an article that described a threadbare sofa in Jackie O's living room in her Manhattan apartment--it was old, but VERY expensive when she bought it. Hmmm. Maybe that's the way you tell old money from new money?

Maybe that's the way you tell old money from new money?

Very much so.

From Vanity Fair in 1995, the year after she died,

Even if Jackie had a limited amount of money to spend when she moved to New York in 1964, New Yorkers more accustomed to lavish displays of freshly milled chintz and newly quarried marble didn't understand her classic American style, which values comfort and continuity over the whims of fashion. They seem disconcerted that she never traded up: her library carpet was threadbare, the fabric on the dining room walls (originally bought for a dollar a yard on Orchard Street on New York's Lower East Side) faded, and her kitchen, in the words of one friend, "deplorable." They find it peculiar that she engaged a succession of decorators over the years—notably Albert Hadley, the late Harrison Cultra, the late Vincent Fourcade, Georgina Fairholme, Mark Hampton, and Richard Keith Langham—but the look never changed. (The last refurbishing was done, eerily, in the bedroom where she was to die. Only months before she became ill, Langham replaced the bed hangings with Scalamandre glazed cotton in "Tuileries," a lavender and salmon pattern of undulating vines and small flowers. Says Langham, "It's almost as if she knew what was going to happen.")

One friend with an expert eye recalls that one of the few important pieces of furniture in the apartment was a subtly painted Louis XV table with a marble top, on loan from Bunny Mellon. The rest was French and Italian decorative painted furniture, souvenirs from Jackie's travels (an obsidian sphinx said to have been given by Anwar Sadat, Greek worry beads of blue glass), stacks of books, her collection of drawings of animals dating from the 17th century onward, and overstuffed sofas and chairs. A drawing table where she painted was set up in the living room. ...

Those with refined sensibilities found it admirable that Jackie seemed to have remained immune to the decor mania of the late 70s and 80s and that she preferred to spend her time working as a book editor, riding, and playing with her grandchildren, rather than pondering species of fringe or the intricacies of upholstery with a decorator. They see in it a reflection of the uppercrust values of another era (benign neglect) and a reflection, as well, of her private self, as opposed to the immaculate public image. "Her tastes were very French," says art critic and lecturer Rosamond Bernier, who adds, "I think of a warm place, with a fire burning." "It was," says designer Carolina Herrera, "an apartment of someone who comes from an old family. Not a showplace full of marble like the homes of all these new people. It was her taste."

"Case in point--anyone I've known more than twenty years has done their kitchen twice." Two thoughts #1 your people are chasing HGTV made up trends or #2 they did such a crap job the first time... Kitchens are not a couch. I get a person buying a home and making a kitchen "their own" but seriously it's not like getting new carpet!! Discretionary spending in America would feed a third world country for a year!!

Five years after college graduation a group of women meet for lunch. All are wearing cashmere sweater sets and a discreet set of pearls...except one. She's wearing a designer dress and sizable diamonds. The conversation rotates around the table; whom they have married, number of children etc.. Diamond girl says, "I'm a call girl" and the others breathe an audible sigh of relief. "Oh, thank God! We were afraid you had dipped into principal".

That is Old Money.

My aunt and uncle built a gorgeous custom home in the south in the late 60s. Large home with high quality everything and extensive use of reclaimed brick and beams. Beautiful marble in the bathrooms. Unbelievable furnishings and antique rugs. The kitchen was a nice size but pretty basic. Same with the adjacent laundry and utility bath. These areas were used almost exclusively by the maids. It was a much different time.

Not just in the South. Gorgeous, huge, "six flat" built in Chicago circa late 1930's. No expense spared, original exotically tiled showers and tiled tub, superb woodwork throughout. Good sized kitchen and laundry but, strictly utilitarian. Having "staff" was the norm for the upper class.