I've had various contractors tell me I'm their dream easygoing client (couple of 'em might even mean it since they were willing to work with us again) but if crap happens that necessitates a repair, even when fixable, I want to know.

I think a more direct parallel would be something like the contractor mixed a thinset wrong and realized it before he went to use so he threw out that batch and made a new one. Would I need to know about the wrong thinset as a client? No, because it had no I’ll effect on the final product. Breaking something and repairing it so I won’t know is not the same thing.

The crux here is why are these repairs needed in the first place. In just this one post he cracked the counter in front of the sink. That shouldn‘t have happened. He split a cabinet rail while tapping it off. What? I’ve seen guys do that all day long all year long without splitting a rail. Then he says “one never knows if she got out of the crazy side of the bed the morning”. So, like there are no men who’d have a problem with those two mistakes? (and those mistakes are the ones he’s telling us about). And *they’re* the “crazy” one cause he isn’t the least bit contrite that he did those things. This is the sort of scarey, entitled disdainful contractor we unfortunately read so often about on this forum.

I once let buyers into a home on my lot built with my money while it was under construction. They noticed the trim carpenter chipped a variegated granite tile on a bar counter. He dabbed a bit of clear silicone on the chip, pressed it in and clamped.

Three months later, on closing, this "defect" was presented to the Warranty inspector. The couple spent 10 minutes trying to find the "defect" to no avail.

Bad, bad, bad to the bone!

****

This is not commentary on the specific instance posted. In fact, I do see the repair. But would I see (or feel it) in person if it weren't pointed out?

Well...the granite counter top on my kitchen sink counter was broken just as the example in this post. If I run my finger over just the right spot I can feel the break. But when I look at the counter I cannot see the break at all--from any distance. And you know what? The counter functions perfectly!

Ever tried to install a long and heavy piece of granite with a sink cutout, leaving only a few inches of counter top in the vicinity of the sink?

I have a question.

I'm cursed with an eye for detail, but I'm blessed with patience and a cheerful disposition. So, how should I try to convince contractors to let me know when mistakes happen?

I am concerned that a contractor's "not noticeable" may result in me seeing something, which will damage my trust in the person.

I don't have a problem with either of those repairs. Because I know that the glued joint is stronger than the material around it.

But I'm guessing that most people don't know that and would fuss/ worry unnecessarily if they did know about the repair. So far as I'm concerned, making minor repairs such as these is all in a days work. Fix it and carry on.

In any case, I'm assuming that these were retrofits that should be understood to have some risk. Don't want to take the risk, then live with the sink, whatever, etc., that you have.

+100! Awesome thread.

I learned the same lesson too. Fix mistakes immediately. Any time I said, it will work out, we'll compensate - it always bites you in... It always takes more time and lot more $$$ to fix it later.

Small framing mistakes takes nothing to fix... Boy do you pay for it -- if you didn't fix them at the framing.

Our sub screwed up foundation - it was poured larger, no big deal right? +12k custom framed roof was the result and h.o. would not share $1 - stating not his problem.

Had improperly embedded drywall tape in the small section of the ceiling [slightly visible] and one blue marker. Figured out after texture will be covered. Wrong on both. marker bleed thru, and tape was still visible after the texture. The moral: stop and fix it.

I kind of agree with ODD above. I'm pretty easy going, so if I trust the contractor to begin with, and they tell me about a mistake they made that resulted in a repair that I might not have noticed otherwise, and that the repair was (in the case of a counter edge, for example) stronger than the material around it, I would be just fine with it. But I think I would want to know.

That said, I agree that in some posts I read on here there seems to be a real need for perfection, and from there, a sense of entitlement. We all want a great outcome for our project. But I know perfection is a myth.

Yes! Exactly what Miss Leela said!

I'm very trusting, forgiving, and I'll probably marvel at the skill of the repair, but if I notice it first, it's kinda like, "Hey, why didn't he just tell me? What else....?"

I don't know. I'm currently in the trenches of teaching little people the value of honesty and *telling* me of transgressions before I discover them. It's always harder to find out on my own, and I'm grateful with the kids when they are upfront from the beginning.

I do acknowledge that I am not average. Based on what I read on the boards here, and the conversations I had with the superintendent who built our current house, I know there are a lot of folks out there who don't exactly inspire forthrightness when a mistake occurs.

How can I prove that I'm different? Really. I want to be a client that you feel comfortable sharing this information with. :-) Must I have something drafted by an attorney promising that I'm sweet and I'll never wake up on the crazy side of the bed? lol

I agree — it’s the lack of transparency here that is the main problem. Come to me, explain the issue, and how you propose to fix it. Don’t just do and hide it from me.

First, there is a difference between a mistake in the work and a flaw in the work product, so speaking as an accountant, the accountant example given doesn't work. You would have to find something where the outcome was different, even if arguably equal.

Next, I tend to err on the side of transparency, but I am not blind to the fact that clients and customers sometime lack the understanding to properly process information. So I think that the answer depends...

If the reason has more to do with a client's lack of perspective, thus you are avoiding discomfort to them for no real benefit for them, then you are not alone in believing that acceptable, in fact, most professions do this at times. However, if you are doing it merely for an undeserved economic benefit, that is a bit different.

1. Doing something such as kitchen remodel,interior/exterior paint job,room addition or building a home,I suspect less than 10% are completed without mistakes or accidents. As long as they are corrected to industry standard,I see no reason to report them. Many times I've intentionally left a glaring but simple to fix problem for owners and inspectors. Once a problem is found,most people only look for others which are as obvious rather than small, picky stuff.

This, on the other hand, needed to be fessed up to. I didn't see it on first inspection, but a little while later as I was showing off my beautiful new bathroom counter to my BFF ... UGH! Luckily, it was only a four foot section of back splash that needed replacing.

"Fix it before they find it"

It's a sad commentary on the current state of the handyman/kitchen install business when this has to be the title of a thread.

Joe, how did you manage to split the cabinet rail? ;-)

GN Builders L.L.C:

If you place a piece of wood blocking at the cabinet rail back and tap on it, you'll never split the rail. I got in a rush, and tapped on the back with a hammer directly.

Deb:

Please tell me what good would come from my telling my customers their top or their cabinet was repaired. They cannot see or feel the repair; no one will ever find it. If I pointed it out, like an animal cruelty video, they would never be able to "unsee" it.

Consumers love online ratings and contractors do everything ethically possible to keep them as high as possible. To deliberately and unnecessarily put those ratings at risk is business suicide.

""Fix it before they find it"

It's a sad commentary on the current state of the handyman/kitchen install business when this has to be the title of a thread."

Lovely Linda:

That may be so, but the point of this post is to show that some consumers, with unreasonable expectations and the power of online reviews, have caused this reaction from contractors. If we knew we could expose every single mistake without consequence, we would. We can't and that's not our fault.

It's a sad commentary on the current state of the handyman/kitchen install business when this has to be the title of a thread.

Respectfully, I don't agree. It is a topic that gets a lot of discussion in my field. Should people be given information without any filters so that they can educate themselves to make a decision or should information be given with consideration of how that information is likely to be used?

Really it is all about perspective. There is a reason that your doctor tells you about the 99% likelihood of having a cold and omits the 1% likelihood of having a degenerative condition. Granted, this is very different than the OP but it is still omission based on how the patient will process the information.

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I am not taking a side, I am just pointing out that if this fix were considered an acceptable industry standard install and the client's situation will not be equitably improved by telling them, then what case is there for disclosure? This is an arm's length transaction.

“Please tell me what good would come from my telling my customers their top or their cabinet was repaired.”

Its not about “what good” it will do. It’s about personal integrity.

Its not about “what good” it will do. It’s about personal integrity.

So when your doctor doesn't tell you that there is a one in a thousand chance that your symptoms are a serious condition, then that omission is an omission against his personal integrity?

ETA: just to be clear, I am not advocating that what Joseph did or does is correct, only that complete transparency has been demonstrated to sometimes have a negative impact.

For an accountant this comes up most often in earnings smoothing. Earnings smoothing is a deceptive practice where profits are legally moved between accounting periods in order to make earnings less volatile and more consistent.

It is deceptive because you are not indiscriminately reporting the facts as they are, however, it fulfills your responsibility to shareholders because it increases stability of share prices. If a company starts reporting earnings without any smoothing their share price will go down substantially even though realistically, the only volatility exists in the arbitrary reporting deadlines rather than their actual business model. So investors are substantially harmed by that transparency.

So would you prefer that the companies, who you have invested your retirement funds in, stop earnings management even though it would serve no purpose other than to reduce your retirement?

---

We live in a nuanced and complex world, it is OK that problems have nuanced and complex answers. I personally tend to err on the side of transparency, but I understand the problems that comes with that.

The problem is many contractors just keep going and don't fix it. I've got no problem with Joe fixing an issue. We all know he will correct it properly. Things happen. Most of us have experienced the problem of it not being corrected, left in place, and no one confessing to it until well after the fact.

Nice repairs. My preference would be to be told. But, I'm a pretty reasonable person and I understand that things happen. If you fix it, I'm cool with it. If it can't be fixed, we'll deal with it.

The posts with the absolute hysterics of people’s lives being “ruined” by a pretty small issue that meets industry standard ought to be enough education for consumers about their fellow wackos out there. Is is no wonder that any contractor doesn’t want to trigger that type of over emotional meltdown? Especially when an issue can be fixed before anyone even notices.

It’s like a drip in the paint on your woodwork by the front door. No, it shouldn’t have happened. Scrape it off, and repaint it, and you will never know. Let a customer see it? They start hunting for issues that aren’t there. Their perception of quality is colored by the impossible standards of perfection or nothing, with no gray in between. Microscopic examination of the greatest beauty of all time will reveal uneven skin tones and blemishes. And that’s all some people can see if even one minor flaw is shown to them.

One of the most important ingredients in the custom home and remodel businesses is trust--mutual trust.

Yes, trust is hard to define and quantify.

Yes, trust seems to be relative between different individuals.

But...if and when trust is lost it's game over.

I'm getting old. One thing I've learned is that construction is a messy business. The reality is nearly any project I've had done on any home I've ever owned involved some collateral damage. It makes me a little crazy but I've come to realize it's almost unavoidable.

I have no problem at all with what Joe did. I'd hire him to work on my home in a heart beat.

Here's the applicable section of the mandatory warranty programme I've worked under:

If this were a new home, I would point out the repair to the homebuyer. If they objected, I'd withhold paying the counter installers till they made a replacement.

If this were a home improvement project, I would sympathise with the OP. The cost of replacing the granite could easily kill any profit on the job. I can't understand how anyone can made a living in his business!

I really appreciate this thread; it gives me insight into the nature of the business, so that I can be aware of it and make conscious attempts to win the trust of the folks working on my (current and future) house. This is a highly valuable discussion.

I think one huge problem is the disconnect between some homeowners expecting perfection and the reality of building a house.

If one is accustomed to perfection, which in 2019 is understandable -the quality of mass produced items like cell phones or cars is incredibly high-, it is tempting to expect that level of quality in a house.

Well, that’s not going to happen so I kinda understand a contractor fixing small mistakes without telling the homeowner. Emphasis on “small”.

I’ve built my house mostly DIY and that taught me a great lesson how to deal with screw ups and as a result I’ve become a LOT more understanding if a contractor has to fix something that went wrong.

Not telling, in a nut shell, the contractor has made the decision that his/her customers are too stupid, too hysterical, too oblivious, too ignorant, too irrational to handle the fact that a portion of the product has been damaged, and repaired by the contractor.

Also, the contractor has unilaterally decided the repair has met "industry standard", so it has no problem....all of us have read many arguments on this forum about the definition of "industry standard".

Threads like this definitely tell us the mind set of some contractors.

You are gambling on your homeowner not noticing. Maybe that gamble mostly pays off. Maybe you've lost business from the people that spotted your repairs later but decided it wasn't worth arguing about. You will never know.

Personally, it would be strongly influenced by how good at their job a contractor was supposed to be. When I hired a relatively inexpensive but still reputable firm to remove some trees, I expected them to do it safely, but leave a bit of a mess. That was what happened and so I wasn't mad about the little problems they left behind. If I had hired (and paid top dollar for) the best arborist firm in the area, I would not have been happy and wouldn't have hired them again.

Slabs are repaired at the quarry all the time and then shipped to the wholesaler. No one ever notices. Same with your “new” car. It gets scrapes and minor issues corrected all the time before you ever take delivery. And you never know.

I find this topic very interesting, although I’m not sure who I would side with. I am a licensed civil engineer, with one of my job duties being a resident engineer. In simple terms, a resident engineer oversees work performed by a contractor to ensure a job is completed adequately. To perform my job I have to have a certain level of expertise and experience for a given type of construction job. I am never the expert, that is why we hire contractors, but I know enough to ensure the job is being done in accordance with what we asked for. When $100 million dollars is on the line, nobody is out for your best interests more than yourself, that is the purpose of a resident engineer.

This approach can be scaled down to a typical home owner’s project, whether it be a complete remodel or a sink install. NOBODY is out for your best interests more than yourself. Joseph’s post here states that very clearly - he takes it upon himself to decide whether the job is done right without allowing the home owner to decide if they agree. I am sure there are good reasons for this but that is what it boils down to.

Personally, given my background, this is exactly the kind of attitude I expect from a contractor, good or bad. I am also fortunate enough to have the experience to perform my own oversight on jobs I have to contract out. That means I am home any time a contractor is performing work for me.

What about those of us who don’t have the flexibility or knowledge to perform this level of oversight? My recommendation is hire someone who does. A kitchen designer can play this role on a larger job. If it’s a simple sink install I would watch them. I have no problem with repairing a cracked counter if the fix is not noticeable, but I will be the judge of what is noticeable and nobody else. Joseph your repair looks pretty good from the photos, there are other things you’ve mentioned fixing for unsuspecting customers that I did not agree with in the past. It doesn’t make you wrong, it just makes our opinions different.

^^^^ Ugh, oh. Watch out. Joe detests ALL engineers. Doesn't matter who you are.

When I was pregnant, I had to have some genetic counseling for some reason or other. The councilor mentioned how much easier these conversations go when she is dealing with someone in a "profession." She said people who do not operate in a world where knowledge is nuanced and complicated do not understand what they do not understand and think their Google search puts them on the same footing as the experts. This is the problem Joes has to confront. A consumer who knows nothing of the work involved believing she is an expert. Transparency cannot exist in that circumstance, because the homeowner cannot have all the fact sin context and she cannot appreciate the missing parts of her knowledge. If you hire Joe, the you know the job will be done well and with integrity. Problem is, we don't all get to hire Joe. Lucky for us he comes here and helps us understand what is done well and what is not. I have watched Joe go step by step in helping folks here get remedies for shoddy workmanship.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with Joe making a repair and not telling me about it. As for trust in the relationship: if the quality of the work is excellent (as it clearly is), and if we treat each other with respect in all our dealings, where is the lack of trust? Do you no longer trust Joe to do excellent work, if you know about the repair? It seems to me that my trust in his abilities would increase. My trust in his pride in workmanship would increase.

Would I suddenly lose trust in another aspect of our relationship? "Oh no! Joe broke the counter, fixed it without telling me - now I can't trust him to return my calls, show up on time, or bill me appropriately for his work!" Seems pretty ridiculous to me.

Linda, contractors and engineers don’t play well together, it’s part of the job, especially when you’re like me and don’t “look” like you’d know what you were talking about ;)

Zalco, I agree with you 100%, but how often do people hire a Joe and know they got a Joe? I’ve seen first hand nitpicking at its finest from people who thought they were experts from google university. It’s an interesting topic and a real struggle for good contractors performing small jobs. In the world of high dollar projects, detailed contracts and licensing bonds protect the customor, but these things don’t scale down well.

I find this contractors and engineers don't get along thing so strange. My husband is an engineer and he is a contractor's best friend. He understands why the contractor is going what he is doing and why I am out of my mind when I want things that defy the laws of physics. In addition, my husband has tremendous respect for the work of tradespeople because he understands it. Mind you we tend to either hire the very best contractor or just get a handyman for a small job. We have never wound up with a contractor who was a dolt or a charlatan, but I think that's because we are fortunate, patient and informed.

Now realtors and my husband, that is a whole other kettle of fish. They do not get along and I have to keep them away from one another or I would never get a new house.

“So when your doctor doesn't tell you that there is a one in a thousand chance that your symptoms are a serious condition, then that omission is an omission against his personal integrity?”

Not even remotely the same thing. It’s like the doctor nicking an artery during routine surgery, stitching it, and not telling me it happened or what I need to be aware of for recovery. Presumably, they went over the risks before surgery, so hearing it happened wouldn’t be a shock. I would deal.

I’m a reasonable person. Communicate with me, and it’s good. Don’t, and allow me to find out on my own? Now I wonder what else you weren’t truthful about.

If you’re a moral, ethical person, you don’t have anything to worry about by being honest.

Change " contractors and engineers don’t play well together" to "smart people do not play well with not so smart people" is more suitable... keep in mind, the smart ones could be either an engineer or a contractor.

I highly doubt a REAL engineer who received rigorous engineering training in the areas such as logic analysis, problem solving skills, situational observation, trade off comparison...etc. would apply the same standard in space shuttle to a kitchen stone counter top, and will be ignorant enough to believe everything from Google search.

"The councilor mentioned how much easier these conversations go when she is dealing with someone in a "profession.".

The comments from the councilor sounds like a teacher complaining about not all of his/her students are from high IQ gene pool. She/he forgot his/her responsibility is to make all walk of life understand the subjects during his/her session regardless their background.

"Would potential customers run from you and not sign such a contract?" I bet some would based on their decisions, but from this thread, I suspect Joe would deprive the chance for them to make the decision by hiding the facts.

Sometimes my customers win big from my mistakes.

Before his wife came home today, the husband said "Oh, you undermounted the sink. Boy is she gonna love that."

I'm thinking "Of course I undermounted the sink." Then I realized that I had only charged them for a drop in. That's about a 30% difference. Above is the sink they got, this is the installation they paid for:

Of course removing the old sink was the most difficult I've ever done. A twenty minute job took nearly three hours.

They were grateful perfect customers and offered to pay a bit more, but I refused. Perhaps I shouldn't have said anything.

"Ugh, oh. Watch out. Joe detests ALL engineers. Doesn't matter who you are."

Lovely Linda:

I do no such thing. I detest arrogance. I detest when a highly educated air conditioned pocket protector wearer thinks he knows more than blue collar guys that have bailed him out of trouble more times than he knows.

I've seen the archy's specify a 14-foot long backisland that wouldn't fit into the 12-foot freight elevator they specified to make it to the second floor of the department store. I've been in crawlspaces with engineers and their laughable little 3-foot levels. Yes, their math is perfect, but it's applying that math to the real world where some fall short. The smart ones take notes from the guys who have been there and done that.

Expertise in an area of one off fabrication has to include the ability to deal with imperfections. Look closely at anything and it will be imperfect. But we know the level of finish we'll enjoy. And if a craftsman can produce that I'm satisfied with imperfection. I'd be happy with the 'repaired' sink rail without being told about it.

I hope everyone see's the relivance. I've had many calls where half the occupants (8 to 10) smelled natural gas after one of them detected the odor. The buildings were total electric, had no gas. It's called power of suggestion and is powerful indeed. Tell a person something might be less than perfect and they are often unable to get over it until the item is replaced with one purportedly perfect. Were this not true,placebo medications would never work. If you haven't withheld something from your past, you are one special human.

In my business, and doing contract work, the customer does not care how we got to the finished product. Just that the finished product meets their expectations. I had a client once who wanted to know all the defects that were fixed on the project. I declined. They did not exist.

How many here think that when their house was under construction there were no defects? No bent nails? No boards cut too short that were replaced? etc? And did your builder tell you of all of them?

"Ugh, oh. Watch out. Joe detests ALL engineers. Doesn't matter who you are."

"I do no such thing."

You do. I wrote "ALL" engineers. I even emphasised for you "all" with all caps so you wouldn't miss my point.

In your post above, for the first time I've seen anyway, you do use the word "some" so I'll give you credit for that but show me a past post of yours before yesterday that isn't all inclusive to every. single. engineer. Go ahead.

In my two kitchen renovations and one sunroom addition over the years, I've worked with some horrible "guys who have been there and done that" to use your words. And there's examples here almost every day of shoddy work done by people in your profession, again "guys who have been there and done that". So, should I include every home improvement contractor in a sour lump group assessment of your profession?

No. I think that would be unfair as there's some pretty good ones out there.

Weedmeister nailed it above, IMO. That's what I was trying to say too. Construction is a messy business, mistakes happen along the way.

The people I love working for me are the ones who acknowledge the mistakes and fix them, rather than ignoring them and/or arguing about it. It's hard, and occasionally impossible, to find good quality people who want to do a good quality job.

I've been around here long enough to know Joe cares about the finished product. I'd let him work on my house any time.

Not even remotely the same thing. It’s like the doctor nicking an artery during routine surgery, stitching it, and not telling me it happened or what I need to be aware of for recovery.

This actually proves the point. What if I told you that surgeons nick arteries all the time, it isn't even considered a mistake? You are assuming that because things didn't go as you envision they should, that things went wrong, and that you need to be aware of it for recovery. Your anatomy doesn't actually match the textbook, inside your body things are all over the place. A surgeon may start a procedure by mapping your arteries, but it isn't uncommon to nick something that isn't where they thought it would be.

Yes, I agree you should be told, but your assumption that it was a mistake, because you don't have perspective, is the case for not being told. Furthermore, in this situation, he risks nothing. You will not win this case, and he doesn't care about your online reviews. If either of those things change, and there are ambulance chasers trying to change it, then I strongly suspect the number of times it is mentioned in post-op will go down.

I understand why nothing was said. If I was informed that the counter cracked or cabinet cracked but was fixed and wouldn't be an issue down the road it would be no big deal but I know people who would put up a giant stink. Demanding all new counters or all new cabinets. They would be posting all over the internet how bad the contractor was.

By the comments in this thread, I can see why Joe doesn't always let the homeowners know. My guess is the same ones making a stink about not knowing about the fix would be the same ones who would be insisting that it's ruined and they need all new counters/cabinets.

Now having said that, I'd trust Joe 100%. Not so sure about some of the yo-yo's I've had in my house recently. With them, I might feel differently.

Regarding a crack in a counter, that is no big deal. When I got my quartzite, there were chips in 3 different places. The guys eventually (Lol) came and fixed the chips and I'll be darned if I can even find them now. (And I'm an artist who's students have nicknamed me Eagle Eyes.) And as Joe told me, a fixed crack will actually be stronger.