I read through this thread and am actually amazed by the amount of misinformation it contains. I'm not sure if that is related to how far we've come in the art and science of bonsai since 2006 and the posts reflected beliefs that were popular 12 years ago, but I'll hope that's why much of the info is so 'off'. *********************************************************************************** Shielah - Apple embryos (seeds) are almost always dormant at the time of harvest. Several weeks at 32- 40*F (0-4*C) is necessary to release the seed from dormancy so it can germinate. To grow normally, apple trees NEED 500-1100 chill units that only accumulate at temps between 33-45*. If they do not go through a normal dormancy and do not get the number of chill units to properly release the tree from it's dormant state. Chill units were formerly called chill hours, but it was discovered that not all temperatures contribute equally to the chilling required to release a plant from dormancy. The second number is the number of chill units that accumulate on a per hour bases at the temp or temp range preceding Degrees Fahrenheit: <34.5* = 0.0 c.u 34.7* – 36.3* = 0.5 c.u. 36.5* – 48.4* = 0.1 c.u 48.6* – 53.8* = 0.5 c.u. 54.5* – 60.6* = 0.0 c.u. 60.8* – 64.4* = -0.5 c.u. >64.4 = -1.0 c.u. Degrees Centigrade <1.4* = 0.0 c.u. 1.5* – 2.4* = 0.5 c.u. 2.5* – 9.1* = 1.0 c.u. 9.2* – 12.1* = 0.5 c.u. 12.5* – 15.9* = 0.0 c.u. 16.0* – 18.0* = -0.5 c.u. >18.0* = -1.0 c.u. A classic symptom of insufficient chilling is delayed bud-break and a lazy spring flush of growth. Also, a tree might have a small tuft of leaves near the tips of the stems and be devoid of leaves for many inches proximal to branch apices (below the growing branch tips). Lower buds will break eventually but full foliation is significantly delayed, production of reproductive parts (blooms fruits/ nuts/ seeds, …..) is reduced, and the tree is weakened. Additionally, not meeting chill requirements contributes to heavy suckering or water shoots emerging from lower parts of the tree, which can be a problem, obviously. Also normal development of next year's buds can be impaired. The age of a tree is measured ontologically as well as chronologically. Cuttings from a tree that is capable of blooming are, at the moment they are taken, already ontologically much older than your tree from seed - even with no roots yet having grown. Trees from seed can take many years (up to 25 for hawthorn) to reach sexual maturity/ bloom / bear fruit, while cuttings from a tree capable of blooming have already attained the sexually mature stage. Your tree, so do as you wish, but the tree would, w/o question, demonstrate its appreciation for a cold winter rest and a nutritional supplementation program that relied heavily on an appropriate fertilizer in lieu of the apple cider thing. That you can manage to keep the tree alive w/o it's cold rest shouldn't be viewed by others as a clarion call to follow the same path. Al

Kayan: Fuji is a wonderful apple, and widely available on the full range of rootstocks, from standard to full dwarfing. But Fuji is not the only good apple around, and you may benefit your cousin by expanding your search criteria. There are several apple varieties technically classified as "crabs" that are medium-small apples and very tasty indeed. The expert around here on these "lunchbox" or "pocket" apples is Lucky, who may provide his opinion if he notices your post, but a couple of the best varieties are Callaway and Chestnut. There are several others whose names momentarily escape me. With a little looking, you should be able to find these varieties on rootstocks such as M-26, or the semi-dwarf M-7, which might also fill the bill. As for maintenance, while there are a few newer apple varieties that advertise resistance to certain apple diseases, keeping an apple tree and its fruit disease and insect free depends more on the prevalence of diseases and insects in your area than on the variety of the tree. It would be nice to be "fully organic", and not to have to spray at all, but most of us have to if we want our trees to prosper and produce edible fruit. It isn't much fun for a child to pick an apple off the tree and find the core full of black frass and a couple of codling moth larvae. If the children begin to associate apples with worminess, there goes all the fun. And you can grow healthy, non-toxic apples with some early chemical sprays, as I do here every year. Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Agree, your comment/situation is scary. But Google does, in fact, advertise that it will search your computer. From someone who tries to avoid Google, what do you do with Google, other than as you mention - a Google search? I try to avoid Google searches but I am probably kidding myself using other search engines. Privacy is an historic word. Most of us are becoming an open book. Innocent GardenWeb and other internet site questions and comments are for the world to see and to pry. Using Yahoo, here's one quote concerning Google computer search: "If you use the Search Across Computers feature and don't configure Google Desktop very carefullyÂand most people won'tÂGoogle will have copies of your tax returns, love letters, business records, financial and medical files, and whatever other text-based documents the Desktop software can index. (Source: EFF)" That article with the caution also says that the scare is far too excessive and the only person who can access such data is the user. But call me a sceptic. Apple's first iPhone was hacked within a month and the recent iPhone3G was hacked within hours after its release.

this probably would have come from the KT as it was in that folder. I always cut and paste also with the contributors name and date but somehow it is missing probably because I just did it quick and didn't check. Upside down caramelized apple cake 4 tablespoons (1/2 stick) unsalted butter, plus extra for greasing 1/2 cup firmly packed light brown sugar 1/4 teaspoon cinnamon Dash nutmeg 2 1/2 cups (about 3 small apples) thinly sliced apples such as courtland, fugi or gala The cake 6 tablespoons unsalted butter very soft 1 cup sugar 2 eggs room temperature 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 1 cup flour 3 tablespoons cornmeal 1 teaspoon baking powder 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/2 cup milk Preheat oven to 350 degrees Lightly butter the sides of a 9" cake pan (not a spring foam pan) Combine the butter, brown sugar, cinnamon & nutmeg in a small saucepan. Stir & bring to a boil & boil for 30 seconds, stirring the whole time. Scrape the mixture into the prepared pan & spread evenly on the bottom. Put the peeled & sliced apples evenly on the bottom of the pan & press slightly to level them. To make the cake beat the butter & sugar with a electric mixer until creamy. Add eggs & vanilla & beat until very smooth & fluffy about 2 min. Stir the flour, cornmeal, baking powder & salt together then sprinkle over the butter-sugar mix, add the milk & beat just until the batter is evenly moistened about 1 min. Spoon the batter over the apples & smooth the top. Bake 50 min or until a knife inserted in the center of the cake comes out dry. Run a knife along the outer edge of the cake to loosen it from the pan. Place a plate over the cake, then flip it over to invert the cake onto the plate. Let cool completely before serving. 2 notes: Be careful with the caramelized part as it is very hot & can burn you. Make sure your plate is larger then the cake or you will have a mess when you turn over the cake.