Triggered again...

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Just wanted to let folks who replied to my last post know I read & appreciated all their comments, since I can still access it, and the prior one too, thru my notifications page.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Curious if it was filters or concern trolls, but will probly never know...

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mrskjun(9)

Just curious. What are you talking about?

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elvis

Ditto. Where's the beef?

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Annie Deighnaugh

A thread which linked to a very good and interesting article about why people who support a cult leader support him, how reason and argument are not effective as it's an emotional choice by them and it looks into the psychology behind those choices. It references Wilhelm Reich's "The Mass Psychology of Fascism" originally published in 1933. But apparently some don't like it and have deleted it more than once.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Yes the references to comments and attitudes witnessed elsewhere on this forum was on purpose.

Some people are never not ironic.

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elvis

Yes the references to comments and attitudes witnessed elsewhere on this forum was on purpose.

Surely the article ^^^ was not about Hot Topics.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

carolb,

I hope you post it again later or on another day. I'm interested in reading the article.


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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Dang that sounds like an article Id like to read - what was the author and/or place it was published? We could prob find it on our own easily enough. Its not exactly a new or controversial concept that people vote or choose leaders based on deep seated emotional need and not logic.

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blfenton

I read the article quickly and was hoping to get back to it and reread it. The specific article was written by James Reich and referenced the article that Annie mentioned above thread. I also read the one by Wilhelm Reich.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

It's in the online magazine sensitiveskinmagazine (.com)

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freeshoesfsu

Snowflakes, no wonder so may trump supporters live in the south.

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Annie Deighnaugh

At the risk of losing yet another thread, I'll post the link. Please try to be adult and delete only this post and not the entire thread if you must. But be even more adult and try not to delete the post. The article is a thoughtful piece even if you don't agree with it. And you *know* psychologists are always blaming Oedipus and Electra...

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Im guessing no one read all those big words, just took one look at the pic . Just when you think you cant be shocked anymore along comes another reminder about why this person is unfit for presidency.

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Annie Deighnaugh

It just dawned on me that the thesis in the article would also explain why AOC is such a trigger for the gop! Yup, another data point in the same direction!

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Linda

I incinerate ticks most of the time. My Daddy taught me that. When DH questioned what I was doing, I told him it was a BBQ. And too much virtually unlimited power in the hands of dishonest politicians who also want to discourage voting rights of the people is a very bad thing.

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Delilah66

The article answers a lot of my questions and the photo, which I had entirely forgotten, reinforces my disgust.

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tony jelly

It would take a pretty savvy MAGAlomaniac to gauge the hidden mood of people and then exploit it the way the article suggests. And if we are holding Trump up to this standard do you think he came by this on his own or is it just a coincidence that his views correspond to the white supremacy/evangelical crowd and when he discovered this - and then he maxed on it?

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woodnymph2_gw

Thanks for posting the link. The photo is shocking.

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Annie Deighnaugh

tony...love it magalomaniac!

I think it's both...a lot of his racist sentiment has been long held and resonates with a lot of Americans...otherwise he would never have hooked up with the likes of bannon and miller.

But it's also that he's been guided. Remember the wall was just a memory cue to help remind him to talk about immigration. And he said he thought drain the swamp was stupid, but used it because he was told to and then was surprised at how well it sold.

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jean_mi_z5

Shocking? Evidently you haven't seen the photo of Trump and Ivanka on the bed.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

The article isn't about the photo, and vice versa.

Our president is a guy who operates on impulse. That explains why he shies away from study or preparation of any sort. 1 thing he has a knack for is picking up on what resonates with the public - positively or negatively. I've heard him compared to a standup comic, honing an act based on audience feedback.

And this, from the article:

"...the authoritarian will sense his own ‘accidental’ aspect, that he is merely an instrument of history. Frequently, he will confuse this with his inevitability. The truth is that he is under their spell, not they under his. If and when the authoritarian is defeated, or the ideology implodes under the pressure of its consequences (the reluctant awakening of a reasonable self-disgust or pragmatism within the group) then he is transformed from their messiah to their scapegoat...."

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Current Resident(z4 WI)

Carol, I think the photo is somewhat relevant cos the cultist can look at that and somehow theyre OK with it.

I dont think all trump voters are cultists - some like my sibs abhor the person and arent afraid to say so... but are so anti-abortion they will vote for him anyway - I guess in their minds abortion is a worse sin than incest.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Make no mistake, the anti-abortion, & for that matter, anti ALL reproductive rights for women, platform is a thinly veiled, and deeply cynical method of getting a constituency to turn out the vote for those who will uphold and enable the power agenda of the ultra wealthy.

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woodnymph2_gw

True, and the power of the White Male constituencies.

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catkinZ8a



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steve2416

Thanks for the link to the article. Can't help thinking of the similarities of Trump and Jim Jones - wonder if Trump will self destruct also when the "winning" is over and try to drag us all down with him(?).

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adoptedbyhounds

The article reminded me of the "Sokal Affair" from a couple of decades ago.

In that case, a couple of very smart academics wrote a bunch of nonsense and got it published. They made fools out of fellow academics who were taken in by their deliberately meaningless verbiage and pretended to understand it. They called their paper

Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity

https://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2.html


As for the latest effort to cast Trump as a dictatorial authoritarian, that's a narrative his critics bring up regularly in the hope their planted seed will grow somewhere.

This time, his critics used used research from a guy who came up with a lot of quirky ideas nearly a century ago. I had never heard of "orgone" until I read about Wilhelm Reich.

https://www.thoughtco.com/wilhelm-reich-and-orgone-accumulator-1992351

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palisades_

Thanks for the links Nik. I’ll look into them later today after my battles of the weeds.

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tony jelly


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palisades_

Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity

Yes, no new quantum theory offered, but is full of deliberately meaningless verbiage with a trek of schizophrenic thoughts mixed in on feminist theories, right wing enemies, on authoritarianism and elitism inherent in traditional science... The professor was lost in trance of thoughts in the end with his political rallying!

As for Reich's orgone pseudo science, doomed as it did for the failure to fully understand the physic law of conservation of energy and mass. He would be better off spending years in India, Tibet, or China taking refuge under a meditation guru or a kungfu master to study metaphysics, especially in channeling [sexual] energy to a more useful, healing form of energy.

Therefore, the authoritarian will sense his own ‘accidental’ aspect,
that he is merely an instrument of history. Frequently, he will confuse
this with his inevitability. The truth is that he is under their spell, not they under his.

In reality, such a development or rising of an authoritarian is multi-facets, more complex than implied in the above statement. One would not think the rise of Karl Marx, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and Kim is 'accidental' in the authoritarian regimes, nor are those people instruments of history. Rather they themselves have made permanent marks in history. Similarly, it is no accidental that we have an elected President Trump. He was surprised he won as an underdog but nevertheless he ran for office, and the other half of the voters put him there. And many people are under his 'spell' on the illegal immigration and economic issues, not the other way around.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The truth is that he is under their spell, not they under his.

Actually it's both...I don't think the trumplicans would come to the defense of any other goper like they do trump...and we know trump is terrified of losing his base. A parasitic relationship where they will end up destroying each other and themselves.

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Ziemia(6a)

Reich argued that the reason why German Fascism (Nazism) was chosen over Communism was that of increased sexual repression in Germany - as opposed to the somewhat more liberal (post-revolutionary) Russia. As children, members of the (German) proletariat learned from their parents to suppress nearly all sexual desire and - instead expend the repressed energy into authoritarian idealism. Hence, in adults, any rebellious and sexual impulses experienced would cause fundamental anxiety and - therefore, instead - social control is used to reduce anxiety. Fear of revolt, as well as fear of sexuality, were thus "anchored" in the 'character structure' of the masses (the majority). This influenced the irrationality of the 'people' and allowed (irrational) 'populistic' ideology to flourish, Reich argued:

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Ziemia(6a)

Until reading ^^^^ I couldn't get the point of the linked article. Now that I have revisited it - this is strikingly pertinent:

"What Reich says of the generative character of fascism is that it is emotionally rebellious and socially reactionary"

Now it connects with an idea I have about why our country (USA) is so unique. It is loosely constructed so far - but acknowledges that many of the immigration movements (and far from all) and some major migrations - were for the desire of freedom to practice religion - and often because that practice was contrary to the majority.

Two examples are the Puritans (not everyone on the Mayflower was one) and the Latter Day Saints.

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Ziemia(6a)

And, I agree with this from palisades_

"Similarly, it is no accidental that we have an elected President Trump."

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palisades_

Reich argued that the reason why German Fascism (Nazism) was chosen over Communism was that of increased sexual repression in Germany -

His slingshot is way off because racism was a key feature of German Fascism, ultimately resulted with the Holocaust.

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tony jelly

One would not think the rise of Karl Marx, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, and Kim is 'accidental' in the authoritarian regimes,

I just need to correct that statement: Marx was not an authoritarian, nor did he have a regime, furthermore, none of them were Fascist.

Then Zelma says this:

This influenced the irrationality of the 'people' and allowed (irrational) 'populistic' ideology to flourish, Reich argued:

I notice that 'people' is in parenthesis, and intentional or not the definition of who exactly are 'the people' has been problematic forever. The founding fathers, for instance, made sure that the irrationality of the people played no part in government if we assume that this means all people. If all people are not involved in governance but only some, who are these people?

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tony jelly

Racism is endemic to Fascism, not just the German variety that was almost exclusively anti-Semitic. Jews were even blamed for the rise of Marxism. The other common factor in Fascism is the protection of Christianity. leading to racism against Muslims, Buddhists, etc..

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Ziemia(6a)

Isn't racism part of communism (in Russia and China - early last century) as well?

The query was: why facism and not communism

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Ziemia(6a)

A la:

Soviet Union authorities and leaders officially condemned nationalism and proclaimed internationalism, including the right of nations and peoples to self-determination. However, in practice they conducted complete opposite policies including but not limited to; systematic large-scale cleansing of ethnic minorities, political repression and various forms of ethnic and social discrimination, including state-enforced antisemitism and Polonophobia.

(learned a new word: Polonophobia)

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palisades_

I just need to correct that statement: Marx was not an authoritarian, nor did he have a regime, furthermore, none of them were Fascist.

Who said they were fascists? To elaborate, Marxism was the precursor for many authoritarian regimes which based on Marx’s school of thoughts, hence the list of names follow after Marx. Castro and few other Eastern European ‘leaders’ would complete the list.

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palisades_

common factor in Fascism is the protection of Christianity. leading to racism against Muslims, Buddhists, etc..

racism against Muslims, Buddhists? Who knew!

Religious discrimination and racial discrimination are two different concepts. People of any race can choose to practice any religions.

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adoptedbyhounds

"Actually it's both...I don't think the trumplicans would come to the defense of any other goper like they do trump..."

President Trump has earned the loyalty that so vexes his critics. He attracted voters unwilling to cede authority over their lives to unelected bureaucrats promoting globalism.

"...and we know trump is terrified of losing his base. A parasitic relationship where they will end up destroying each other and themselves."

Speaking of a parasitic relationship, that is what globalists, posing as US politicians, are busy imposing on the US.

It's no accident we are a nation already teeming with millions of "migrants" illegal aliens and tens of millions of impoverished immigrants from around the world.

Globalists seek to subvert the sovereignty of wealthy nations so that we become the 'host" for the world's poor. Globalism doesn't just mean trading with the world. It means surrendering our sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats. Hence the "sudden" (and quietly financed) migration of poorer populations to wealthier parts of the world. The globalist/open borders crowd is eager to displace Americans steeped in our own cultural values with new arrivals who will vote for the very politicians most eager to sell us out. President Trump threw a monkey wrench into those plans, and that is why he, and other populist leaders are being attacked.

Putting Americans first is incompatible with what globalists were planning for us.

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elvis

Amen, sistah!

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tony jelly

This is the fear of many that anti-globalism will segue into anti-immigration then on to nationalism and fascism, as explained by ABH above.

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haydayhayday

Tony:

" Jews were even blamed for the rise of Marxism"

Funny.

The history of the Jews in Europe did not start with the Holocaust.

Hay

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tony jelly

Hay, did my post trigger that even though I never mentioned the Holocaust or the history of European Jews?

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haydayhayday

INSIDE EVERY SOCIALIST IS A TOTALITARIAN, SCREAMING TO BE FREE!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

"A journalist and politician, Mussolini had been a leading member of the National Directorate of the Italian Socialist Party from 1910 to 1914... "

You do need to have some compassion for him, though. What would you expect...

"Benito Mussolini's father, Alessandro Mussolini, was a blacksmith and a socialist, while his mother, Rosa, was a devout Catholic schoolteacher."

Poor kid. Bless his heart.

Hay

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Mussolini was unceremoniously expelled by the socialists for his endorsement of Italy’s participation in WW1.

It’s no coincidence that 1914 is the end date of Mussolini’s tenure with the socialists.

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adoptedbyhounds

"This is the fear of many that anti-globalism will segue into anti-immigration then on to nationalism and fascism, as explained by ABH above."

No, globalism is not about "immigration."

It's about NGOs quietly arranging to flood nations with new arrivals, without the consent of the citizens.

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tony jelly

Am I missing something did I write something to trigger hay or is this just another brain overflow?

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Any consideration for the idea that Mussolini may have been more an opportunist than anything else, in his pursuit of power?

Just because a person can espouse affiliation for a particular cause is not proof that they actually embrace it wholeheartedly.

And I chuckled a bit at the counter arguments basically reinforcing the idea that authoritarianism/totalitarianism is rooted in racism and religious intolerance.

Thank you to Ziemia for pointing out the sexual repression aspect. It immediately brought to mind this latest surge in anti-reproductive freedom measures supported by the right. It becomes clear, when one reads or hears comments from those in favor, that these moves are rooted in sexual repression that is mostly grounded in religious beliefs.

I am also glad to see that this resurrected post has generated an actual intellectual discussion.

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palisades_

Reading into the references provided here and other online sources about Reich, I have to chuckle about this mad doctor who failed both in science and psychology, died in prison yet still has throng of admirers. Jim Jones comes to mind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich

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Ziemia(6a)

Now, check out this connection...

Dylan's lyrics to "Joey" (a gangster?) {Just a small part of.them}

The police department hounded him, they called him Mr. Smith
They got him on conspiracy, they were never sure who with
"What time is it?" said the judge to Joey when they met
"Five to ten, " said Joey
The judge says, "That's exactly what you get"

He did ten years in Attica, reading Nietzsche and Wilhelm Reich ***
They threw him in the hole one time for tryin' to stop a strike
His closest friends were black men 'cause they seemed to understand
What it's like to be in society with a shackle on your hand


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tony jelly



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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Is that supposed to be a suggestion that there are admirers of Reich here in this discussion?

One can discuss and/or dissect someone's ideas without necessarily being an "admirer", as I'm sure many are aware.

And thanks for the reminder of that Dylan song from a great album, though I'm not sure how it relates, other than the mention of Reich...? I remember seeing him on the Rolling Thunder tour from around that time.

Here's the entire thing:



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palisades_

Carol, of course we can discuss someone’s ideas without being an admirer, but the impression I get from this and the other 2 threads (which have since vaporized again) is adulatory on Reich’s ideas, which upon my further reading about them prove that his ‘work’ and ideas were such a disgrace to the medical and scientific communities. And I have refuted them earlier.

And I chuckled a bit at the counter arguments basically reinforcing the idea that authoritarianism/totalitarianism is rooted in racism and religious intolerance.

No one is reinforcing such idea - Histories proved it. In the infantry of communist expansion into the Far East, religious persecutions were the norm. And I was surprised that you agree or admire (?) that Reich’s idea of sexual repression caused the rise of German fascism, while the historical motive of it was rooted in racism. We have to disagree.

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Ziemia(6a)

Maybe Reich supported the idea that sexual repression caused German fascism - but it seems he felt the rise of a dictatorship in Germany wasn't a surprise - and he was speculating on why it was fascism and not communism.

He may have been a "kook" but he had a lot of fans post WWII.

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tony jelly

Racism is a dog whistle Palisades. To bring people together you need a common enemy. and race, religion or the color of skin are all easy targets. German Jews were the cultural heartbeat of that country, yet different from the mainstream. An easy target. They are taking our jobs, our money, our women, the fact that we don't want to do those jobs is not the issue, the rest is made up.

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palisades_

Tony, historians concurred that German fascists considered Jews an inferior race to the Aryan Germans.

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tony jelly

Wow, thank you, I didn't know that about Nazis, and Judaism is a race?

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palisades_

Wow, thank you, I didn't know that about Nazis, and Judaism is a race?

You’re NOT welcome, especially with your silly game and memes.

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Ziemia(6a)

palisades - about racism. Earlier you indicated the vile treatment of Jews wasn't racism and now it is? I may be missing some nuance?

**Earlier:

common factor in Fascism is the protection of Christianity. leading to racism against Muslims, Buddhists, etc..

racism against Muslims, Buddhists? Who knew!

Religious discrimination and racial discrimination are two different concepts. People of any race can choose to practice any religions.

**Now:

historians concurred that German fascists considered Jews an inferior race to the Aryan Germans.

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elvis

Um, Palisades wrote that German fascists considered Jews an inferior race.

You can see that ^^^. Everyone can see that.

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palisades_

I may be missing some nuance?

maybe just re-read mr. jelly’s post and my comment on his post earlier about the difference between racial discrimination and religious discrimination. I’m done playing his silly game :)

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Ziemia(6a)

I wasn't being silly nor playing.

I am not on tony's side on this.

I had noticed your earlier wording and it gave me something to think about. Then you seemed to contradict yourself - yet you are thoughtful so I decided to ask. That's all.

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palisades_

Ok no worries. I enjoyed the discussions without game playing even though we [almost often] disagree. Don’t see I contradict myself in any way.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Sometimes others can see things about us we may not be aware of.

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tony jelly

I am sorry that you regard this as a game Palisades, as it is very serious to me, the fact that you nitpicked my statements rather than engaged with it has lead to what you see as game playing. Hay stepped in with his usual nonsense that may have upset the flow but trust me memes and game playing is not what I do as a tactic to win an argument.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

This is a bit unrelated but once again this site is showing signs of weirdness. After just back paging from a recent thread I was redirected to this page of threads below which have zero replies.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/hottopics?view=2

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catticusmockingbird

How bizarre.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I don't know why many, maybe most, of those threads have zero replies, but I do know one reason why that happens. A number of us can vouch for the fact that immediately after posting a new thread, we realized that same topic (often the same headline) was posted earlier by someone else. As a result, we deleted our own late-comer thread.

Kate

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

That's the 'Unanswered' page. If you comment on any of them they'll move to the 'Latest' page. I've done that more than once.

There is an 'Unanswered' category to click on my desktop browser, along with 'Popular', 'Latest' & 'Featured', but I don't see it (or comment text formatting options) on my mobile browser.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

It's on the mobile browser. On the first page, under the Houzz banner there is a drop down "topics" tab. Click it and you can choose to sort discussions by latest, most popular, or unanswered.


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