Systematic destruction of women rights- Alabama edition.

dandyfopp

Get raped? Too bad. Your fault, you will bear that child or go to prison.

Alabama Senate passes near-total abortion ban

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/14/politics/alabama-senate-abortion/index.html

(CNN)Alabama sent the most restrictive abortion bill in the country to the governor's desk Tuesday night, with the state's Senate passing legislation that could punish doctors who perform abortions with life in prison.

The state's Republican backers have pushed the legislation, which amounts to a near-total ban on abortion in the state, forward with the express goal of overturning Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court case legalizing abortion. Alabama lawmakers join legislators in several other states in putting forth legislation to restrict abortion, such as Georgia's recent fetal heartbeat bill.After more than four hours of debate, the Republican-led Senate voted 25-6 to pass HB 314, which would slap doctors with up to 99 years in prison for performing an abortion. The Alabama House passed the bill earlier this month.

The law only allows exceptions "to avoid a serious health risk to the unborn child's mother," for ectopic pregnancy and if the "unborn child has a lethal anomaly." Democrats re-introduced an amendment to exempt rape and incest victims, but the motion failed on an 11-21 vote. Republican Gov. Kay Ivey will have six days to sign the legislation, though the bill would not take effect until six months after becoming law. Ivey has not publicly taken a stance on the bill but has previously aligned herself as anti-abortion, lamenting the courts striking down another Alabama abortion law last year. "As this legislation is still making its way through the legislative process, the governor intends to withhold comment until it makes its way to her desk for signature," Ivey spokeswoman Lori Jhons said in a statement.American Civil Rights Union of Alabama Executive Director Randall Marshall said that his organization would join with the national ACLU, Planned Parenthood, and Planned Parenthood of Southeast to challenge the bill in court within "a few weeks" should it become law. Roe v. Wade Fast FactsThe bill's consideration Tuesday made frequent reference to the chamber's dramatic vote last week to drop an amendment that would have made exemptions to abortions performed for instances of rape or incest.Republican State Sen. Clyde Chambliss, who ushered the bill through the chamber, emphasized in his introduction that the bill impacts women who are "known to be pregnant" and would provide "every female that's pregnant or thinks they're pregnant, and the male who was involved, it gives them that window of time -- this bill does not change that window of time."In a news release, Chambliss touted that his bill outlaws surgical abortions as soon as a pregnancy can be medically determined. Speaking on the Senate floor, Chambliss repeatedly referred to a "window" of time between conception and when a woman knows for certain that she's pregnant. The state senator said he believed that time was between about seven and 10 days.

"She has to take a pregnancy test, she has to do something to know whether she's pregnant or not," he said. "You can't know that immediately, it takes some time for all those chromosomes and all that."Many women don't yet know for certain that they're pregnant even at six weeks into a pregnancy -- the earliest a fetal heartbeat can be detected.When Democratic state Sen. Rodger Smitherman asked what would happen under the bill to a young girl who was a victim of incest and found out she was pregnant, Chambliss said that he hoped that the bill would result in young women learning to seek physical and mental help quickly if they are abused."What I hope is, if we pass this bill, that all young ladies would be educated by their parents, their guardians that should a situation like this occur, you need to go get help -- you need to do it immediately," Chambliss said."Then also they can get justice in the situation," he added. "If they wait, justice delayed is justice denied."Democratic state Sen. Vivian Figures told Chambliss that a rape victim's trauma "is not your business.""You don't have to raise that child, you don't have to carry that child, you don't have to provide for that child, you don't have to do anything for that child," she told Chambliss. "But yet you want to make that decision for that woman, that that's what she has to do."Figures proposed amendments to have legislators who backed the bill pay for the anticipated legal fees accrued by subsequent legal challenges, to expand Medicaid in anticipation of the bill's impact on low-income women, and to make having a vasectomy a class A felony, as the bill would designate performing an abortion. All three motions failed.Eric Johnston, head of the Alabama Pro-life Coalition and the drafter of the initial legislation, told CNN that while the amendment to exempt rape and incest victims is "sympathetic" and "deals with very difficult issues," it would upend the law's legal standing.

"Regardless of how the conception takes place, the product is a child, and so we're saying that that unborn child is a person entitled to protection of law," he added. "So if, be it a rape or inecst conception, then it would be impossible to ask a judge which of these is protected by law and which is not."Staci Fox, president of Planned Parenthood Southeast, told CNN before the chamber's vote that "even the authors of this bill know that it is blatantly unconstitutional and wouldn't stand up in court.""We've seen the continual chipping away year after year in Alabama and efforts get bolder and bolder each year," Fox said. "I think with the President and now Kavanaugh on the court, the politics in Alabama just feel emboldened to take this egregious swipe at women's health care."But in the larger legal landscape, Marshall cast doubt on whether this bill would ever take on Roe, citing how the case would take several years to get to the Supreme Court while several other states have already passed so-called heartbeat bills effectively banning abortion."There are already 14 cases nationwide in the pipeline, two of which are currently at the Supreme Court of the United States," he said. "The notion that somehow this is going to be the vehicle for the Supreme Court to reconsider Roe v. Wade is really misplaced."This story has been updated.

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Annie Deighnaugh

So this means people acquire US citizenship upon conception, not birth, right?

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freeshoesfsu

In Alabama, life begins at rape.

-Jenna Friedman

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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socks(10a)

Will the governor sign?

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tony jelly

There was a change at the Supreme Court and the stuff like this goes down, surely a coincidence amirite?

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Jane

The bill has already passed the house. It must now be signed by the state’s governor, Kay Ivey.

Gov. Ivey has been a Republican politician since 1979

Oh, and she was in a sorority at Auburn Univ., president of her first year pledge class!!

Married, divorced, twice, and is now single - no children

In August 2018, the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a ruling that blocked the Alabama Unborn Child Protection from Dismemberment Act, Ivey reflected on her support for the state law while serving as Lieutenant Governor and said that "we should not let this discourage our steadfast commitment to protect the lives of the unborn, even if that means taking this case to the U.S. Supreme Court." She furthered that the ruling "clearly demonstrates why we need conservative justices on the Supreme Court" and expressed her support for the confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court

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HU-73492036

I wonder how many impregnated mistresses or girlfriends who terminated the pregnancies? You know there has got to be a few hypocrites in that group.

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foodonastump

I’m totally against this of course, but I will say I never did get the rape/incest exemption. Either it’s about the mother or it’s about the fetus.

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Rory Nichols

A Handmaid's Tale happening in 2019 in Alabama.

What are they doing to prevent unwanted pregnancies? I am sure they have first-class Sex Ed classes and free birth-control for all.

Every man who is anti-choice should freeze some sperm and have a vasectomy.

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JodiK

It's actually about power and control. A sick, twisted version of being overseer of all uteruses.


None of these state laws will hold up to Supreme Court decisions.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I think conservatives will be surprised at how this goes down at the Supreme Court but they're definitely willing to give it a go.

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Jane

None of these state laws will hold up to Supreme Court decisions.

Wanna bet?

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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Kitchenwitch111

Alabama and Georgia are last on just about every list that indicates prosperity, education and quality of life. Yet banning legal abortions is where these states focus their energy. What about their prison systems, education systems, and access to healthcare? Residents of states like Alabama and Georgia complain they are often portrayed as backward, yet they completely prove it at every opportunity.

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sowkmom

Utterly amazed/dumfounded/disgusted at what the Republican Party has morphed into. We’ll see what happens at the Supreme Court (if they decide to take the case).

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dandyfopp

Oh the hope of course is that RBG will kick the bucket and Donnie will install someone on the SCOTUS who will heed the call of GOP Jesus, overturn Roe and ensure a legacy of forced birth or criminalized healthcare and abortion on girls and women who through their own irresponsibility, moral failing or maybe just a low cut shirt made some man do what men must - the women must see it through no matter.


And what a wonderful legacy for the generation of girls growing up now and those to come!


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Some of the wonderful sentiments expressed by Republicans in recent times even:



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chase_gw

After refusing an amendment that would have excepted pregnancy as a result of rape or incest , a Republican legislator said all life was sacred and must be protected.

...and then there is this........

"Capital punishment is a legal penalty in the U.S. state of Alabama. Alabama has the highest per capita death penalty rate in the country. In some years, its courts impose more death sentences than Texas, a state that has a population five times as large. However, Texas has more executions per capita."

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dandyfopp


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Webuser 107388825(7a)

This is about control of women. True right to life people would also be against the death penalty.

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chase_gw

The majority of Americans feel that abortion is a matter best left to a mother and her health professional. Educated suburban women have already turned away from Trump. If Trump actively supports this draconian law in Alabama it may even drive more moderate women away.

An anti abortion position is not a winner in a National election.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Fox newz poll----


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batyabeth

"You can't know that immediately, it takes some time for all those chromosomes and all that.""

A week to ten days. That's not a window. There are so many things wrong here I just do't know where to start. But those who think this is a good idea wouldn't hear me anyway. I'm appalled at the sentiments in the article.

VOTE THEM OUT

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"Chris Evans praised for slamming 'absolutely unbelievable' Alabama abortion bill: 'Captain America for president'

After Alabama’s State Senate passed a bill banning nearly all abortions, including those necessitated by cases of rape or incest, actor Chris Evans took to Twitter to slam the “absolutely unbelievable” news. The Avengers: Endgame star, who has made no secret of his disdain for Donald Trump, also said these restrictions would put Roe v. Wade at risk and urged his fans to vote.

The actor’s fans praised him for speaking up on behalf of abortion rights — though he also got called out for his recent meet-and-greet with Republican congressman Dan Crenshaw of Texas, who is anti-abortion.

Other stars shared Evans’s outrage. Actress Milla Jovovich reacted by sharing her “horrific” abortion experience, while the likes of Sarah Silverman, Jameela Jamil and Ava DuVernay slammed Alabama’s legislation on social media.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/chris-evans-slams-alabama-abortion-ban-103137963.html

------------------

There--Captain America has spoken.

Kate

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palisades_

Captain America is too cute to run for President. But I do hope the governor would not sign it without including the exception of rape and incest.

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chase_gw

She has signaled that she will sign it......according to the Republican Senators , all life is sacred regardless of the circumstance of conception. I guess if one is truly against abortion that is a reasonable position.

Once you exclude some abortions based on how the conception took place it negates the "all life is sacred" argument.....no?

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palisades_

Yes it would negate that argument, which should have not been raised. It’s only valid if we all become vegan. Traumatized life circumstances should be considered as well.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Logically, you would think so, Chase, but anti-choicers have long ignored that contradiction. They realized that they lost a lot of support if they insisted on no rape or incest exception, so they pretended there was no contradiction and allowed it to become part of their agenda.

That they are being so "purist" now to disallow exceptions for rape and incest is a new direction for them to take. They finally decided consistency makes more sense for their side?

Kate

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chase_gw

OK...let's change it to all human life?

BTW...this is not a position I hold. Just playing devils advocate to their "all life is precious/sacred" BS.....especially in a State that embraces the death penalty.

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blfenton

The ignorance of these men is stupefying.

Chambliss repeatedly referred to a "window" of time between conception and when a woman knows for certain that she's pregnant. The state senator said he believed that time was between about seven and 10 days. - from OP

Add that to Ohio Rep John Becker's misinformed statement about pregnancy and it makes your head explode (everytime I post his comment it gets deleted but you can find it here)

https://rewire.news/ablc/2019/05/09/someone-tell-this-ohio-legislator-you-cant-move-ectopic-pregnancies-into-the-uterus/

I just hope that these men are not giving their daughters the "sex talk".




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Chi

I wonder if their daughters were ever raped, if they would feel the same about forcing them to have the babies. I suspect they would quietly travel to a different state.

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dandyfopp

Surely they will tell the daughter she owes the rapist gratitude for the gift he gave her.


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Several more Repub. states are working on anti-choice bills also:

-------------

"Missouri senate bill seeks to ban abortion after eight weeks even in cases of rape and incest

Missouri senators will consider one of the most restrictive abortion bans in the US, which would rule out terminations even in cases involving rape or incest.

The Republican-led senate in the state is expected to consider approving legislation to ban almost all abortions after eight weeks pregnancy before a deadline to pass bills on Friday.

Under the new laws, the only exceptions where terminations could be carried out after eight weeks would be in cases of medical emergency.

If approved, Missouri would join four other states that have passed so called “heartbeat” bills, banning abortions once a foetal heartbeat can be detected – usually around six weeks into a pregnancy.

[. . .]

Last week, Georgia governor Brian Kemp signed a heartbeat abortion bill into law, giving the state the power to sentence women to life in prison if they terminate their pregnancies after six weeks.

On Tuesday, senators in Alabama gave final approval to a ban on nearly all abortions in the state, which will become the strictest set of abortion laws in the country if approved by governor Kay Ivey.

The legislation would make performing an abortion a crime at any stage of pregnancy with almost no exceptions.

Although Ms Ivey is yet to announce whether she intends to approve the bill, any veto is likely to be overruled by the Republican supermajority in the state senate.

Meanwhile, Michigan’s Republican-led legislature is poised to vote to ban a common second-trimester abortion procedure, pushing ahead with legislation that would likely be vetoed by Democratic governor Gretchen Whitmer.. . . "

https://www.yahoo.com/news/missouri-senate-bill-seeks-ban-130242523.html

--------------------------

It seems like new anti-choice bills are being introduced DAILY into REPUBLICAN state legislatures. Evidently the goal of the current anti-choice campaign is to get every Repub. state in the nation to pass unconstitutional anti-abortion bills--to form a unified and (I guess) louder anti-choice voice across America and into the ears of the Supreme Court. Anti-choicers have long held the secret belief that the Supreme Court operates on the principle of democracy (what the public wants--mob rule, in other words) rather than on constitutional principles.

One overlooked aspect of that argument is that more Americans are pro-choice rather than anti-choice--not that that will make any difference when it comes to the High Court interpreting constitutional matters.

Kate

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enegiram

If the RepubliCons are so Pro-Life, why is it the majority have been jingoistic warmongers from the right? You can't have it both ways, folks....you are either Pro-Life all the way or you aren't....make up your mind.

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Joaniepoanie

Let this be the hill the Republicans die on so we can put the final nail on the Republican Party coffin.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

So be it!

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woodnymph2_gw

I have no words. Unbelievable that after what we deemed progress, all these years later, so many want to return to medieval thinking. And with the new SC, they may just get what they want. If there was ever a war on women, this is it. The ignorance of these men is winning out over reason and the health of women. Who here can recall "back alley" abortions that were shushed, or girls suddenly flown out of the country, or Florence Crittendon homes, etc.?

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texasranger2

I realize you are angry--- but seriously.......

From that dandyfop read this: "Get raped? Too bad. Your fault, you will bear that child or go to prison."


Exaggerated fear mongering and rumors like this have spread like wildfire on the internet by pro-abortion people as they resort to angry mob-think and hysterics.

The Bill states: "a woman who receives an abortion will not be held criminally culpable or civilly liable for receiving an abortion."

It also states "This act shall not apply to a physician licensed in Alabama performing a termination of a pregnancy or assisting in performing a termination of a pregnancy due to a medical emergency as defined by this act."

The intention of the bill is to challenge Roe v Wade asserting "The heart of the bill is to confront a decision that was made in the courts in 1973 that said the baby in the womb is not a person."

This bill addresses that issue.

The bill is about challenging Roe v Wade and protecting the lives of the unborn because an unborn baby is a person who deserves love and protection.

This is the way to do that.

Finally.

This has been the concern and goal of the pro-life movement since day one and this fight will continue no matter how this battle ends up.





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dandyfopp

Ah yes.

The fetus has rights and abortion is murder.

What happens to a girl or woman who violates those rights?

What are the penalties for murder?

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Kitchenwitch111

So since Alabama and Georgia and Ohio and other states are deciding who is a person and who is not, and thumbing their noses at the Constitution, what is there to stop them from bringing back slavery? Forced birth is a form of slavery.

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Ziemia(6a)

If for them all life is sacred, do they fund free and easy access to health care for the first few years of life and

free and accessible to all women who are pregnant and are post-partum?

...

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texasranger2

This bill and the Heartbeat Bill in Georgia are not directed at mothers. They are directed at abortionists or a man beating a pregnant woman who would be in deep trouble. The intent is not to punish mothers but protect the unborn by recognizing them as humans with rights. The media is distorting the law.

For example here are some blatantly false headlines as highlighted by National Review concerning the Georgia heartbeat bill.



Both laws make it clear that they apply to third parties. Neither call for life imprisonment of anyone. A man beating a woman and killing her baby would, according to this bill, be charged with murder. Without that bill he would not be charged with anything except beating the woman.

These bills recognize the baby is also a human being.

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dandyfopp

Yes.

Keep going. What is the penalty for murder of a human being?

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blfenton

When you direct bills at those doctors who perform abortions as a result of conversations with women who are pregnant you are directing these bills at those women.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" A man beating a woman and killing her baby would, according to this bill, be charged with murder. Without that bill he would not be charged with anything except beating the woman. "


Alabama already has a law on the books for that:


Alabama*Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines "person," for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults, to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in the act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.

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Joaniepoanie

TR

How many times does the right have to be told that no one is "pro-abortion" yet they keep repeating the same rhetoric and lie.


"an unborn baby is a person who deserves love and protection."


So do already born children but the right is against any form of assistance for them......Medicaid, WIC, etc.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Fine. If you want to define a fertilized egg as a person then it gets citizenship a ssn access to ssi child support etc.

Follow the logic and a woman who tries to get pregnant knowing she’s at high risk for miscarriage can be charged with negligent homicide right?

im still waiting for an anti choicer to tell me they’d grab the Petri dish with a dozen embryos rather than the 3 yr old child if they’re in a room that catches fire and they can only save one or the other.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

As far as I know, most states have that same law declaring homicide of /assaults on a fetus a crime and stating that that bill has nothing to do with abortion. The case in my area that I'm familiar with is a drunk driver ramming into a car and killing the woman and her fetus. Same would apply to a man beating up a pregnant woman.

So an additional Alabama law is not needed.

Kate

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texasranger2

Joanie---If you are not pro-abortion, then what are you hollering about? The idea that you can't just go get an abortion if you get pregnant shouldn't make any difference to you since you are not pro-abortion.

It seems more likely you are trying to convince people that you yourself wouldn't kill your own child because you think its wrong but you don't care if other women do because that somehow is not wrong. Is that supposed to impress us and convince us you are morally superior them? If that is the case, you are pro-abortion no matter what you claim to the contrary because it is a judgement call condoning abortion. Self congratulating semantics or euphemistic phrases don't make a bit of difference in the end result no matter how many times you patiently try to "explain" it to us.

Don't insult our intelligence. It is what it is no matter how much twisted logic and euphemisms you use to describe it.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"25 men voted to ban abortion in Alabama. Do they reflect the rest of America?

[. . .]

"If you look at national polling, this isn't where the American public is and it frankly isn't even where mainstream Republicans are," said Debbie Walsh, director of the Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University. "The harshness of it is pretty shocking."

  • Nearly 60% of U.S. adults say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, according to a 2018 survey from the Pew Research Center.
  • While Gallup shows Americans are evenly split on how they personally identify — 48% of Americans consider themselves pro-life and 48% are pro-choice — as of 2018, 79% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in at least some circumstances.
  • 54% of Americans say they are either satisfied with the country's abortion laws or would like them to be made less strict, according to Gallup.
  • More than a third of Republicans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, according to Pew.
  • Men and women have similar views on abortion: 60% of women and 57% of men say it should be legal in all or most cases, according to Pew.
  • More than half of Catholics think abortion should be legal in all or most cases, according to Pew, as do 70% of white mainline Protestants."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/15/alabama-abortion-law-american-views-abortion-poll-pro-life-pro-choice-republicans-catholic-heartbeat/3678315002/

----------------------------------

Just a reminder.

Kate

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dockside_gw

tr - there is no one who is "pro-abortion". It's pro-choice. And, these anti-women laws being passed are all about control of women. I just posted this on another thread and think it bears repeating:

  • I got pregnant, two months after marrying, altho' I used birth control (the pill wasn't available then). Back in those days, women were kept ignorant about the most basic things concerning reproduction and their bodies. After a long labor, where I was "put out" for the last part, I woke up a couple of hours after giving birth. I learned that I had gauze packing in the birth canal. My roommate told me that her sister also had that so I assumed it was typical of giving birth. At no time did my doctor tell me why it was there. A couple of weeks later, my husband got a letter from the Red Cross saying that a member of his family had received a blood transfusion and would he donate blood in return. We both assumed it was his mother or my mother as they both had been hospitalized shortly before my delivery (found out, after asking, that neither got blood transfusions and I didn't even think it was me because someone would surely have told me, right?)
    Fast forward to five years later when I gave birth to my second child. A very easy birth. Doc left the hospital and I started having severe pain. He was called back and I was taken into surgery. When I awoke in the recovery room, I was hooked up to a pint of blood. The doc told me that I was bleeding internally which was very dangerous and that there was gauze packing inside me. I told him that that had happened in my first delivery but didn't know why. Evidently, I had some tearing in the birth canal the first time and the scar tissue the second time, tore and bleeding commenced. I almost died the second time (I'll spare the details of how I know that).
    Anyway, back then, women were treated as second-class people. Can't tell them much about their bodies as they might start feeling like they own them and the right to do with them what they think is best. I later learned a lot more about my body (thank you, "Our Bodies, Ourselves"). And, I am still angry that women were treated the way we were just 50-some years ago.
    I see that happening now with the laws being passed taking away that control from women and treating them as tho' they are only breeders. Keep them barefoot and pregnant is now the motto of many of these right-wing legislators.
    Well, no way. I will continue to be an angry feminist when dealing with these wanna-be slave masters. They deserve every ounce of my and my fellow feminists' wrath.
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dublinbay z6 (KS)

When posters say they are "pro-choice" and NOT "pro-abortion," they mean it. Almost every abortion rights supporter I have met insists he/she is PRO-CHOICE.

Yes, there are a number of women who state that they are personally opposed to abortion and would never get one, BUT--and here is what TR is skipping over--they do NOT feel they have the right to impose their beliefs on other women who should have the right, according to Roe v Wade, to make their own decisions based on their own freely chosen beliefs.

That shouldn't be that hard to understand, TR. It is a version of the freedom of religion argument. You do believe every woman--and man, for that matter-- has the right to believe in a religion that differs from yours, do you not?

Kate


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texasranger2

Dublin if you are going to call us anti-choice instead of pro-life you don't have a legitimate right to complain when we call you pro-abortion.

We choose life over death. There are many choices other than abortion. We present those choices.

We do not think anyone has the "right' to kill. That idea is appalling.

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Webuser 107388825(7a)

Very emotional issue for TR. logical discussion on this issue is not possible.

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Chi

Exactly, Kate. To me, pro-abortion is not a real thing. No one celebrates abortions, or gets pregnant just to have an abortion. I don't like abortions, especially for convenience. It makes me sad. But it's not my right to decide what other women should do with their own bodies. And it certainly should not be the government's right.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"Dublin if you are going to call us anti-choice instead of pro-life you don't have a legitimate right to complain when we call you pro-abortion."

TR--when and where did I "complain" about you describing us pro-choicers as being "pro-abortion"?

I simply corrected your incorrect terminology.

Chi--you said it as clearly and succinctly as anybody has!

Kate

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Jane

25 white men deciding


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Joaniepoanie

TR

Don't you insult our intelligence. It is what it is no matter how much twisted logic and euphemisms you use to describe it. Which you most certainly did.

Everyone is pro life and no one is pro abortion, but the majority are pro choice. Got it?

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catticusmockingbird

We do not think anyone has the "right' to kill. That idea is appalling.


Alabama thinks they do. Are they planning on abolishing the death penalty next? Bunch of friggin' hypocrites.

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HU9999

Let this be the hill the Republicans die on so we can put the final nail on the Republican Party coffin.

Agreed. If they were to ever get their wish, and overturn Roe v Wade, I think they will be in for a very rude awakening and not like the results of elections for many years to come.

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dandyfopp

What a complete and I mean a complete load of garbage.


Perhaps the pro life folk who find abortion so abhorrent should, rather than harass people and try to criminalize what is constitutionally protected, call their lawmakers locally and in DC and demand free condoms, free birth control, free family planning and free child care for every man and woman in who wants it.

Get those dialing fingers going.


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catticusmockingbird



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Ziemia(6a)

Who here is part of "Shout Your Abortion"?

TR: you seem to be using imaginary posters to suport your views

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texasranger2

Dfopp----its amazing that a group of women who are always screaming for the government to stay out of their uteruses don't see any conflict in demanding the government supply them with birth control if they won't supply them with access to abortion.

The contradictions of the pro-abortionists are mind-numbing. Remember gender is just a social construct so you can't complain that "men" are doing this to women because there is no such thing as gender. Men can be women and women can be men. A uterus doesn't count.

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texasranger2

Zeimia the comment I was addressing was "NO ONE supports abortion".

If no one does, then what is all the hollering about here on HT?

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Webuser 107388825(7a)

Best not to indulge her.

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HU-73492036

its amazing that a group of women who are always screaming for the government to stay out of their uteruses don't see any conflict in demanding the government supply them with birth control if they won't supply them with access to abortion.

You're the only one keeping score. For everyone else it's common sense preventative women's reproductive healthcare. But feel free to make women's healthcare part of the patriarchal malarkey.

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barncatz

Women have the right to make the difficult decisions that will affect their life in possibly catastrophic ways. A bakery owner shouldn't be forced into making a wedding cake for a gay couple but a young woman who knows that a pregnancy will destroy her life must be forced into that pregnancy? Are we going to adopt the former Irish system of houses full of women forced to finish a pregnancy and then the babies transactionally adopted?

You want to call abortion murder? Okay,follow Northern Ireland and jail the woman - but also jail the man who got her pregnant, whether consensually or not. Not for being a rapist, but for being an essential part of a murder conspiracy.

It's murder? Accepting it on those terms, which I don't under Roe v Wade, how do you feel about allowing murder in the name of self defense? Would you kill somone to save yourself or someone you loved? I know a young woman who had an abortion and I also know that choice absolutely saved her life for many many reasons. And since I love that young woman, I'm grateful she made that choice and is now living her life beautifully, including mothering step children. None of you love someone who decided abortion was the only correct decision? None of you know or love anyone who is gay either, I bet.


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dandyfopp

I believe I struck a nerve.

It is really quite simple.

Find abortion a horror and sin? Work to be sure unwanted pregnancies don't happen in the first place. Condoms and birth control in high schools.

Sex education.

I know, none of those shame women and force your beliefs onto her body, but if you really want to prevent abortion that is what you do.


In the time it took to type all that you could have made a dozen calls to lawmakers.

For shame.

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Chi

We know they don't actually want to prevent abortion or they would be all for Planned Parenthood. Shutting PP down or removing funding basically guarantees that more abortions will happen. They may not happen at PP but they will happen elsewhere, and in higher amounts without the cheap and accessible birth control options that PP provides.

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dandyfopp

Yep.

Every day there are people who show up at the PP in our town to stand and scream, harass and shame the women going past them.

Take that energy and prevent countless unwanted pregnancies?

Zero thrills.


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texasranger2

dandyfopp---the nerve being struck right now belongs to the pro-abortion people. Thats why you are so angry.

We are gaining ground. People who have been sitting on the fence are seeing the pro-choice people and the abortion industry for what they are when they are exposed.

The thing that matters is reversing Roe v Wade. Its not about birth control.

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chijim

texasranger2


Exaggerated fear mongering and rumors like this have spread like
wildfire on the internet by pro-abortion people as they resort to angry
mob-think and hysterics.

The Bill states: "a woman who receives an abortion will not be held criminally culpable or civilly liable for receiving an abortion."

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But she's committing murder in the first degree according to pro-birthers - why is she exempt?


....but then you already know why


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Jane

If defending your position requires relying on falsehoods, then perhaps you should be questioning whether it’s defensible at all.

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texasranger2

Why is she exempt?

Because that is how the law is written.


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chijim

texasranger2

Why is she exempt?

Because that is how the law is written.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's another reason why it's a bad bill and the lawmakers are hypocrites.

You know if they jailed the women for murder/attempted murder , the anti-choicers would debate would lose.

Pro-birters/anti-choicers are hypocrites too if they don't think the mother should be jailed or executed for killing a human being.

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maifleur01

I no longer have any faith in the checks and balances that this country used to have. These laws lower women from second class citizens to much lower than that. They become a slave to any man who would force them to have sex. Even with the best contraceptive a woman can become pregnant. Do those that want the nuclear family want to return to the days that when a woman was forced to marry after she was raped? It certainly sounds like it. The solution for an unmarried woman in those glorious days of old who became pregnant was marriage or tossed into the street to become a prostitute. Is that what is wanted because with no way to feed, cloth, and house a child that is what will happen once again.

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blfenton

"Shout your Abortion" grew out of the "No Coat Hangers" movement in the 1970-80's. It allows for women to talk about their decision in having an abortion without shame or condemnation. For those who think it's about women bragging about having had an abortion I feel sorry for you,

If this Alabama law is enforced and if Roe Vs Wade is overturned women will be driven back to whispering in dark, dank alleyways about the need for an abortion. And we'll be back to the "No Coat Hangers" movement.

I wonder how many OB-GYN doctors will be leaving Alabama.

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texasranger2

People attempting to shame people because they believe babies should have the right to live rather than being aborted is a rather demonic kind of logic.

I'm totally shamed and sooooooo embarrassed (cough).

There are doctors who fund their schooling by performing abortions because its very little work for big profit with a steady supply of customers. They call it easy money for 15 quick minutes of work.

chijim--My advice to you is ----contact the people who wrote the bill and tell them to correct the oversight and include women in the group who should be punished because you think unless they do, its unfair.

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JodiK

And... I'm pretty certain that if we check racial statistics on those states still applying capital punishment, I do think it would be found that minorities lead the way.


What's with the hypocritical idea that "we need to save every fertilized egg, but instead of life prison sentences, let 'em fry"? Something is desperately wrong with the logical thought process when fertilized eggs take precedence over life that already exists.


And... since when is a fertilized egg the description of a baby?


Sorry... my body; my choice. Keep your nose out of my private business, and my private parts!


It's just creepy that some people need that level of control over others.



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pippabean,

Hmmm.

TR, aren't you the one who accuses liberals of being wishy-washy on morality?

While you believe in absolute morality? Or maybe you only do, when convenient?

So what is it now? Abortion = child-murder? Or not? If yes, how is it possible that the woman who after all typically is the instigator of the heinous crime, should not be prosecuted and convicted for infanticide?

Please explain.

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catticusmockingbird

In Alabama, a state that just passed a total ban on abortion, more than a quarter of children live in poverty; 30 percent of those children are under the age of five.

Only half of Alabama’s 67 counties have an obstetrician.

Infant care for a single child in Alabama takes up an average of 11 percent of a family’s income. According to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, child care costs are unaffordable when they exceed 7 percent of a family’s income.

Single mothers in Alabama spend 29 percent of their income on childcare costs.

Child care costs for families with two children—an infant and a four year old—cost 28 percent more than the average rent in the state.

About 88 percent of Alabama’s rural hospitals are operating “in the red.”

Alabama has the second highest infant mortality rate in the country.

Alabama rejected the Medicaid expansion under the Affordable Care Act, despite support for the expansion from the Alabama Hospital Association.

More children are living in poverty in Alabama now than they were almost 20 years ago, and the state has the fifth highest child poverty rate in the country.

Alabama’s child food insecurity rate is 22.5 percent. The national average is 17.5 percent.

There are no maternity leave or family leave laws in the state of Alabama.

Alabama is the sixth poorest state in the country, its most impoverished regions are predominantly black.

Alabama State Senator Clyde Chambliss, who sponsored the abortion bill, characterized the legislation as a necessary government intervention to protect human rights. “When God creates the miracle of life inside a woman’s womb, it is not our place as human beings to extinguish that life,” Chambliss said.

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HU-87154335

This will be the end of the Republican Party for sure.

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texasranger2

pippabean---Excuse me???

I never voiced an opinion on the punishment aspect ---who gets punished or how long----one way or another. Don't accuse me of being wishy washy. I believe abortion is a grave sin and that it is killing.

Is that clear enough?

What I did was tell you the stuff you are reading online about women being accused of murder and that they will be sent to prison is untrue. Its just online hysteria and some of it is coming from certain publications who should know better. The bill does not say that. Look it up if you have doubts.

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, there is the cruelty of forcing a victim of incest to continue the pregnancy.

Will 11 year old victims be forced to continue?

With the penalities being that severe, will any doctor agree to perform one?


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jojoco(NY 5)

Does "serious risk to the health of the mother of the unborn child" consider mental health? To make a woman bear a child that was the product of rape or incest could cause a serious risk to the mental health of the woman.

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Joaniepoanie

73% of the country do not want RvW overturned......so good luck with that wingers. Yep....keep this on the ballot and make it a major campaign issue in 2020 and we'll see how big the next blue wave is.

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Chi

I think overturning Roe vs. Wade would be a huge, huge mistake for the Republican party. On the practical side, they will lose their biggest political platform. And I think they underestimate how angry people will be.

No woman of childbearing age today has known life without reproductive freedom. I suspect they won't take that loss very well.

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texasranger2

There is a lot more cruelty when victimizers take their underage victims to Planned Parenthood for abortions. It has been found that there are often more than one abortions performed on the same victim at the same clinic where the victim is escorted by the same creep. Planned Parenthood has a record of being notoriously guilty of not reporting obvious cases of abuse for decades. Where is your compassion when Planned Parenthood aids and abets more abuse? Planned Parenthood can be a victimizers best friend as the saying goes. They quietly dispose of the evidence and take care of the visible 'problem' allowing the abuse to continue.


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Jane

We do not think anyone has the "right' to kill. That idea is appalling.

State sanction killings are OK with you?

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catticusmockingbird

Jane, she's conveniently dodged that question repeatedly today.

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Ziemia(6a)

News story tonight on CBS about the horrific conditions in the Alabama prison system.

Investigation finds Alabama prison conditions are "unconstitutional"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alabama-prison-conditions-are-unconstitutional-investigation-finds-2019-05-15/


Findings are that Alabama is "deliberately" disinterested in changing.

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blfenton

TR - go back and read what I said. you seem to have a reading comprehension issue. It sounds like you've had an abortion? (which I'm sure is not what you are intending to indicate)

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Planned Parenthood has a record of being notoriously guilty of not reporting obvious cases of abuse for decades "

Source?

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maifleur01

bifenton some women who have had abortions turn into the most rabid anti-abortion advocates.

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chase_gw

The Governor of Alabama has signed the bill.

Now in Alabama a doctor who performs an abortion will be subject to greater penalties than a rapist .....including incest .... the lowest of the low.

Sick.........

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Jane

Pat Robertson, an outspoken anti-abortion televangelist, said Wednesday that the near-total ban on abortions the Alabama Legislature passed this week is too restrictive.

“I think Alabama has gone too far,” Robertson said on his show, “The 700 Club.” “They’ve passed a law that would give a 99-year prison sentence to people who commit abortions. There’s no exception for rape or incest. It’s an extreme law and they want to challenge Roe v. Wade, but my humble view is that this is not the case we want to bring to the Supreme Court because I think this one’ll lose.”

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Agree, this one is too extreme to win. They went too far.

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Stan Areted

Sounds like they did go too far.

It will get sorted out in the courts.

It's our system.

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palisades_

They went too far. What will it take for a change, a real case?

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Chi

I saw this on Reddit: Stop calling yourself pro-life when you're prepared to have a child risk her life to give birth to a rapist's baby.

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Joaniepoanie

Pat Robertson says it went too far? Hell hath frozen over!

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texasranger2

Jane---Alabama went "too far" on purpose for legal reasons. The goal is to challenge Roe v Wade and to do so they had to make the wording extreme and clear that they mean all life in the womb is to be protected. That is why incest and rape are not excluded because that is the question. What life is and when it begins. Doctors and biologists all know when it begins but Roe v Wade states no one can say when life begins. That is ludicrous.

They don't expect it to pass in that strict form but that type of specific wording is exactly what it takes to challenge Roe v Wade. The Georgia bill will not challenge Roe but this one does. No one really expects Roe v Wade to be overturned. This is just one strategic battle in the ongoing battle which may not be resolved in our lifetimes. The goal is to put the decision about abortion laws back on the state level which makes sense because New York is not Alabama and they should not be under the same universal law (a badly worded, very flawed law no less).

If you can move past and not get bogged down in the emotional hysterics and end-of-the-world rhetoric its enlightening to watch this play out in the legal system. I am hoping we eventually go back to state's having their own laws on this. If, in the unlikely event we did overturn Roe and made abortion illegal all across the US, we would not be any better off than we are now, it would not solve anything. It should be given back to the states to decide for their own people rather than forced on all of us.

My personal views are just that. My personal views. Abortion is murder in most cases.

edit to add:

No that does not put me in the camp with pro-choice or mean I am pro-choice in the sense of the term as you people mean it. So don't even go there.

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Chi

I don't think anyone here would ever think you are pro-choice, don't worry.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" The goal is to challenge Roe v Wade and to do so they had to make the wording extreme and clear that they mean all life in the womb is to be protected. "


They should have gone with a more modest limit, like 20 weeks. Trying to take it down to 6 weeks is just shooting at the dirt - it's pointless. But, hey, I'm happy for these folks to blow their credibility on something like this. They just look like anti-choice idiots, determined to tell women what to do with their body.

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dandyfopp

We can thank women for the last blue wave.

Next time, tsunami.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"Doctors and biologists all know when [life] begins but Roe v Wade states no one can say when life begins. That is ludicrous."

Once again, TR, you are mis-using your terminology.

The issue discussed in Roe v Wade is NOT when does "life" begin.

Roe v Wade was trying to determine when "personhood" begins--when does a fetus develop into a person with civil rights protections?

The answer is "at birth," assuming the fetus is then viable.

And Roe v Wade does know when viability begins. It accepts the standard medical designation of 24 weeks.

Kate

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Remember the Blue Wave!

Kate

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Annie Deighnaugh

TRMS had a clip on tonight where the author of this legislation said that nothing changes for the woman who doesn't know she's pregnant...it's only once she knows she's pregnant then she can't get an abortion.

Say what??? So you can get one so long as you don't know you need one, but as soon as you know you need one, you can't get it?

So if women get a monthly abortion whether they need it or not, it's ok???

ETA: You can see the bit on https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show video clip: Republicans Aim to Flip Roe v Wade at about minute 1:15. It's really quite stunning.

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Joaniepoanie

They showed the clip today of Trump on the campaign trail being interviewed by Chris Matthews saying women should be punished if they have an abortion. What do the right wing members think? Did it give you pause when he said it or do you agree? Of course Trump stumbled and then said no when Chris asked him if men should also be punished.


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dandyfopp

Of course Donnie stumbles and says no when asked about punishing men... no telling how many abortions he has paid for.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

" So you can get one so long as you don't know you need one, but as soon as you know you need one, you can't get it? "

Sounds exactly like that book Catch-22.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Here's a link to a pro-life senator who rails that the AL bill went too far and uses his niece's situation as an example.

https://www.facebook.com/OccupyDemocrats/videos/595441667619285/

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how2girl

Passed by 25 white republican MEN & signed by a 74 year old Governor - none of whom would be candidates for an abortion under any circumstances, in a state with one of the worst infant mortality rates...and they want you to believe they “value” life.

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palisades_

Signed by a 74 year old WOMAN Governor. I felt the buck stopped with her.

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blfenton

If I remember correctly, she was also a supporter of Roy Moore.

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catticusmockingbird

Passed by 25 white republican MEN & signed by a 74 year old Governor - none of whom would be candidates for an abortion under any circumstances, in a state with one of the worst infant mortality rates...and they want you to believe they “value” life.


AMEN!

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JodiK

Always remember... the "value" within the bigger picture is wealth and/or power... every time. When looked at hard enough, it's there somewhere.

~~~

Facts and stats do not lie... it's those very same states that push for utter control over women and reproduction are the same states that gasp in horror at the mention of teaching actual sex education beyond abstinence, making birth control accessible and affordable, have the highest rates of venereal disease, teen pregnancy, and the need for public assistance! But, hey... what's a few thousand more kids stuffed into a foster care system that is understaffed, underpaid, where abuse of those children is rampant?


The take away is... quantity over quality in all things, including life. Very backwards.


And... no matter how hard one wishes for it, a fertilized egg does not equate to or describe a BABY.


Abortion is not murder or infanticide. At the very least, please bring reality to such debates. Anything less is just... a colossal waste of time.



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Delilah66

“So you can get one so long as you don't know you need one, but as soon as you know you need one, you can't get it? "

Clumsy wording for: take a pill the morning after unprotected sex.

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Stan Areted

Clumsy wording for: take a pill the morning after unprotected sex.


This is important and I do not recall seeing a campaign about this as I think there should be. It took forever to get younger women on the pill and to consider abstinence, as well. Things have changed sinced the 90s for the better in that regard.


However, I think a lot of these people are just ignorant, not a bit concerned about becoming pregnant because there is always a tie to the man that got them pregnant--which is what so many are looking for. I'm not referring to an educated, monogamous and careful person that finds out they are pregnant despite doing the right thing, or an unusual lapse of some sort. It happens.

These are the people that are panicked, realized the gravity of the situation, and regret an unplanned pregnancy. They're more likely to get the morning after pill.

Others--I don't know how to make them consider it.

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woodnymph2_gw

It's a human rights issue. Why should the rights of a fetus trump the rights of a woman over her own body, a body that endures the pregnancy and pain of birth?

Women are still treated unequally, even though we are at least half the human race. Where is justice for women?

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aristocleos

woodnymph

Do you have a more expanded explanation as to why you and your rights are more important than that of your own unborn child or any unborn child? All people experience pain at some time in life and your child would be no exception. Is avoiding pain or inconvenience really a legitimate reason to kill your own child?

What happens when we extend the logic of that line of reasoning to its obvious conclusion on any human issue in order to decide who has human value and who does not?

Would this same excuse be considered legitimate if someone didn't want to be burdened with caring for their elderly parents if they became helpless to care for themselves? Would it be ethical to say their rights don't trump yours in order to justify euthanizing them in order to avoid the unpleasantness and inconvenience?

The way I see it is both of you and your unborn child should have rights and neither is more entitled than the other although the mother does bear more responsibility but she also has an unfair advantage. The child is unable to have a say in the matter. This law seeks to accomplish just that by speaking for that child since the child cannot.

Who is really being treated unequally here?

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Chi

Artisrocleos, do you think children who are raped should be forced to risk their life to have the baby? Which child is more important? The living, breathing one or the embryo?

Do we expect an 11 or 12 year old to get herself some plan B after an assault? Go on birth control just in case she's raped? Maybe she should have been more responsible and prepared?

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dandyfopp

If abortion is murder, what shall the penalty for the murder be?

Possible boon here to the for profit prison systems.

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numbersjunkie
Why-cant-these-pro-life-states-stop-killing-infants-all-the-time?

A lot of interesting data. Worth a read.

https://www.wonkette.com/why-cant-these-pro-life-states-stop-killing-infants-all-the-time-2637206485.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
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aristocleos

Chi

You are dodging the issue to avoid responding to the question by pulling up outlier cases to invoke sympathy. That is a common tactic used by those who push for abortion. You cite rape or incest which make up approximately 1% of all cases for abortion.

Answering a question with such a question is a cheap avoidant tactic used when a person has no legitimate response or leg to stand on.

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dandyfopp

Like the adults who might not care for elderly parents question you posed earlier?

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Chi

Aristocleos, I noticed you avoided answering my question as well. Are you avoiding it? And just because it only happens 1% of the time doesn't mean it's not relevant. I'm sure if it were your child, you'd care about that 1%.

The point is that abortion is not black or white. It's not all irresponsible women who use abortion as backup birth control. There are so many different circumstances that the only reasonable solution is to let the pregnant women and her doctors decide what to do with her own body

And to answer your questions, I don't consider a fetus to have the same rights as the woman until he or she is living outside of the womb. A fetus is not the same as an elderly person. A fetus is not the same as a pregnant woman. A fetus is not the same as a raped child. Killing an elderly person is not the same as an abortion.

Now will you answer my questions?

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palisades_

Killing an elderly person is not the same as an abortion (killing unborn baby)

I am very trouble by that statement. It would go down easier to say killing an elderly person is not the same as killing an animal, would it?

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dandyfopp

Still waiting on the answer about what we do to these women who murder their fetus.


Your link when I copied it didn't work for me Numbersjunkie, so I tried this.

https://www.wonkette.com/why-cant-these-pro-life-states-stop-killing-infants-all-the-time

None of that information is surprising. Red states want to force women to carry the child, but they don't care what happens to her while she is pregnant or what happens to the mother or the baby after. Strangely all interest in the sanctity of life drops off when the baby meets air.





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aristocleos

We all start life as a fetus and baring disease or accident we will all be elderly in the end. Maybe you want to convince us you did not exist when you were in your mother's womb. Maybe you believe you were something other than a human baby in some tangible way even though your own unique DNA was intact from the moment of your conception and you can trace your own life back to that time.

The issue of the bill is personhood.

Who do you all think you are to sit in judgement and say a fetus is not a person just because that fetus is inconvenient to you. Everyone of you enjoys the privilege of life and personhood because your own mothers let you live. Your own individuality and uniqueness proves you are wrong that a fetus is not a person.

If your answer about personhood is we should let the woman and her doctor decide that is no answer at all. That's just throwing the question like a hot potato onto someone else to deal with. Its a cowards response.


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aristocleos

dandyfopp

I read the bill. Did you? I think not. The bill says nothing about punishing women "for murder".

Maybe you should take out time to read the bill before making statements or asking irrelevant questions. Its not that long and easy to understand.

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dandyfopp

Not asking about the bill aristocleos.

I am simply asking, if abortion is murder, what is the penalty?


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Chi

"Who do you all think you are to sit in judgement and say a fetus is not a person just because that fetus is inconvenient to you. "

I mean, you're judging people too for having an opinion that's different than yours.

Fetuses aren't inconvenient to me. I don't think they are a person until they are outside of the womb. While a fetus is dependent on the mother's body for survival, the mother gets priority. That's why most abortion laws still allow abortion in the case of risk to the mother's health.

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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

Legislation doesnt prevent abortions, it only prevents safe ones.

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Chi

Somehow I don't think they care much if a woman dies getting an abortion.

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Kitchenwitch111

What this is really about is the government deciding what women can do with their own bodies. They are saying that once a woman is pregnant the fetus is a person and the woman is not. These men, and the women who agree with them, do not consider a woman to be a full person.

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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

I don’t think they do, either, Chi. They aren’t truly pro-life.

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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Annie Deighnaugh

It's a human rights issue. Why should the rights of a fetus trump the rights of a woman over her own body, a body that endures the pregnancy and pain of birth?

Let's not forget the risk of death too. The risk of a woman dying from childbirth is 14 times that of a pregnancy termination.

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HU9999

We know they don't actually want to prevent abortion or they would be all for Planned Parenthood. Shutting PP down or removing funding basically guarantees that more abortions will happen. They may not happen at PP but they will happen elsewhere, and in higher amounts without the cheap and accessible birth control options that PP provides.

This! Needs repeating.

They show their hypocrisy when they want to shut down Planned Parenthood.

They show their hypocrisy when they want to teach abstinence only sex education.

They show their hypocrisy when they don't want birth control to be covered by health insurance.

They show their hypocrisy when they don't want to make birth control easily accessible.

They don't care about preventing abortion. If they did, all of the above would be at the top of their agenda. It's not. They care about controlling women or forcing their religious views on others. Period.

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Annie Deighnaugh

aristocleos, do you have trouble telling the difference between a chicken egg and a chicken? One is a chicken, one is a potential chicken.

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dandyfopp

Testy, testy.

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Chi

"Biologists would not agree with you."

That's okay - the law does.

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dandyfopp
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cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)(zone 7, Northern VA)

TR: "My personal views are just that. My personal views. Abortion is murder in most cases."

What in the world does that mean? In what cases do you consider it murder and in what cases would it not br murder. Please clarify because that sentence/view makes absolutely no sense to me.


Also, Chi, I think biologists certainly do agree with you. They use terms like zygote, fetus, fertilized egg.

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texasranger2

Its not murder when the woman's life is endangered or the fetus is dead and must be removed from her body.

Biologists say life begins at conception. By the way a human is not a chicken and they do not lay eggs.

You guys need some new material, that old stuff is tired and shopworn. Justifying abortion for any reason "because its the law" is a silly argument when the topic of discussion is a state challenging a bad law by writing a new one.

The GOP is pro-rape? That accusation sounds desperate.

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blfenton

You can pass bills all you like, outlawing abortions, threatening doctors with jail time, threatening women with no control over whether or not they are in a position to have a child. But the choice of having an abortion will continue.

The only thing that's being born is a new underground.


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patriciae_gw(07)

Chicken and egg made me laugh because I had the exact same thought but didn't say it-good for you Annie. People who have chickens with a rooster are going to be eating infant chickens if you think a fertilized egg is a being. If a fertilized human egg is a being then so is the chicken egg. While chickens push their embryos out of their bodies for the rest of gestation the situation is the same. Still an embryo.

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catspat(aka)

Its not murder when the woman's life is endangered or the fetus is dead and must be removed from her body.


Too bad Savita Halappanavar's doctors didn't believe that. There was still a heartbeat, so fatal septicemia was allowed to progress. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/27/world/europe/savita-halappanavar-ireland-abortion.html or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

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Chi

Alabama is ranked dead last in quality of public education, so if they really care about the kids, they could start there.

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palisades_

In dire situations where one must choose either to save the baby or the mother, either choice is possible depending on their conditions. Sacrifice must be made and that is not murder.

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dandyfopp

Lets see.

On top of being victimized in a violent act, the woman or even child who was raped must carry and deliver a baby that was forced on her, spend 9 months of her life living with the physical manifestation of that rape, go through the trauma of birth then the trauma of raising or giving the child away.

The rest of her life being physically tied to the man who assaulted her.

Pro rape. Sounds kind of like ya'll are more about punishing the victim there.

Go on and own it and tell us what happens to women and girls who murder their fetus.


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blfenton

Missouri has now passed their new Abortion bill - banning all abortions after 8 weeks.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/missouri-abortion-law-senate-passes-wide-ranging-bill-to-ban-abortions-at-eight-weeks-of-pregnancy/

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Abortions will continue whether you outlaw them or not. Making restrictive laws won't stop them, but it will send them underground where a black market will develop, enriching those who prey on desperate people. And women will die along with the blob of cells within her. But perhaps you will think the woman deserved her death.

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Chi

"The rest of her life being physically tied to the man who assaulted her."

Don't forget that rapists in Alabama can also petition for parental rights or even custody. So not only are raped women forced to have the babies, they also get to deal with custody battles and court cases with their rapists!

Imagine a woman having to drop their child off every weekend for their visitation with the man who raped her.

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dandyfopp

Imagine if that person was her father, brother, uncle.


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texasranger2

bifenton---rape and theft are both against the law too but that doesn't prevent scumbags from doing either one. Do you really think breaking the law matters to such a person? No. The law makes no difference, the object is not to get caught or just satisfy a need or get stuff for free. I suppose we could make it more convenient for these scumbags and change the law and say stealing and rape are not wrong after all but that doesn't make a lot of sense. My guess is if stealing was legal a lot more people would just steal what they need rather than work for it which is exactly what happened with abortion after Roe v Wade. And, forget about asking a woman for permission.

I think we are at about 60 million abortions since Roe v Wade? Maybe more. I forget the actual number but its ghastly. But.... keep posting coat hangers anyway.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Why don't you acknowledge that the number of abortions decreases every year? Especially so when more education and birth control is made available.

In 2015, 638,169 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2015 was 11.8 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 188 abortions per 1,000 live births.

Compared with 2014, the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions for 2015 decreased 2%. Additionally, from 2006 to 2015, the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 24%, 26%, and 19%, respectively. In 2015, all three measures reached their lowest level for the entire period of analysis (2006—2015).

Women in their twenties accounted for the majority of abortions in 2015 and throughout the period of analysis. The majority of abortions in 2015 took place early in gestation: 91.1% of abortions were performed at ≤13 weeks’ gestation; a smaller number of abortions (7.6%) were performed at 14–20 weeks’ gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks’ gestation.

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/data_stats/abortion.htm

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Chi

Facts and logic don't fit the pro-life narrative. It's the same thing with trying to shut down Planned Parenthood. Real pro-lifers would throw as much funding as possible at PP because cheap and easy access to birth control is how abortions are prevented.

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catkinZ8a

Ah, we remember when the lefties tried to get memes banned here. Carry on!

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sherwoodva

Ever since Rose v. Wade, Republicans have been fighting women's right to have an abortion. What will the Republican party do if that decision is overturned? I doubt that those Republican voters will fight as hard for the right to buy as many guns as they want. Along the lines of what Sunflower said earlier, if the GOP is satisfied with offering "thoughts and prayers" after a student is killed via gunshot (and not pass any laws restricting guns), why don't they just offer "thoughts and prayers" when there is an abortion, and not take any action?

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Jane

Jane---Alabama went "too far" on purpose for legal reasons.............

Duh.........

Yes, we all know that.

Its not murder when the woman's life is endangered or the fetus is dead and must be removed from her body.

According to the Catholic Church it's still murder. They won't even approve a D&C, forcing a woman whoa has miscarried to carry a dead fetus

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catspat(aka)

Oh, Jane -- the paper at your link is horrifying, dreadful to read. And these are Catholic hospitals in the U.S.! Story after story of women with sepsis, hemorrhaging, and near death, being denied treatment and/or having to be sent 90 miles to a secular hospital in order to get lifesaving treatment, because there happens to still be a fetal heartbeat, though the fetus is nowhere near viability..is this the barbaric, backward direction we want to go? Why is this allowed at all?

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catkinZ8a

Don't wonder why.

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Chi

Catkin, your little meme conveniently forgot the initial sentence of that part where he said "And it’s done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that’s non-viable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered, the infant would be kept comfortable, the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother."

I think most people are intelligent enough to know that he's talking about babies that are not going to survive. The decision is whether to let them pass peacefully or resuscitate and give them a little longer, though perhaps more traumatic, life.

Those who play dumb and pretend it's about killing healthy babies aren't doing themselves any favors. No one is killing healthy, viable babies. That is illegal.

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Jane

the paper at your link is horrifying, dreadful to read. And these are Catholic hospitals in the U.S.!

It is horrifying, and with hospital mergers, etc, far too many women are now at the "mercy" or lack of mercy of Catholic hospitals and so have no recourse.

No contraceptives, no birth control, tubal ligations, D & C & hysterectomies are problematic, even when medically necessary. Women are at risk every time they go to a Catholic hospital for OB or GYN services.

Women's health decisions are being made by old white "celibate" men.

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Chi

Catkin, maybe you should go talk to one of these mothers of terminal babies. Explain to her why her baby should be born and then resuscitated. Explain to her that the moral choice is to put the baby through clearing its airway, possible intubation, chest compressions, painful IV's in his little veins. Imagine how terrifying that would be for a little baby who will die anyway, likely hooked up to machines and without ever being held by its parents.

Or you could allow the mother and the doctor to decide to let the baby pass peacefully, without pain, in their mother's arms and surrounded by warmth and love. But no, that would be murder, right?

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palisades_

Those who play dumb and pretend it's about killing healthy babies aren't doing themselves any favors. No one is killing healthy, viable babies. That is illegal.

So many ignorant people are out there. Majority of abortions on healthy, viable babies are due to financial reason, and poor women are among the majority. Alabama (and the rest) should spend more resources on BC and sex ed.

“Most abortion patients say that they cannot afford a child or another child, and most say that having a baby would interfere with their work, school or ability to care for their other children.9 Most women also cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals as a factor in their decision to have an abortion. These concerns make particular sense when one considers that six in 10 women who have an abortion are already a parent.7 “

https://www.guttmacher.org/gpr/2016/07/abortion-lives-women-struggling-financially-why-insurance-coverage-matters

ETA: and the minority of abortions include rape, incest, birth defects, and from wealthy republican/democrat mistresses. Substitute fetuses for babies in this context as you wish.


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Jane

No one is killing healthy, viable babies. That is illegal.

Majority of abortions on healthy, viable babies

Ignorance or just the usual right wing lies?

Babies aren't aborted, no abortions involve babies

Babies are already born so they can't be aborted.

Killing a baby is a crime.

Baby - A very young human, particularly from birth to a couple of years old or until walking is fully mastered

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texasranger2

"no abortions involve babies"


Aw, how cute, a little baby elephant.

Nah, its not really a baby elephant. Baby elephants are only those other kinds, the ones that have already been born. These here ^^^kinds of look-a-like elephants don't count, they aren't really elephants........ and when they are in the womb they definitely aren't really elephants.

They aren't baby elephants until they get born to a couple years old or......until walking is fully mastered. Thats when you have your baby elephant.

They may look like baby elephants, but don't let that fool you. They are really just right wing lies.

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Chi

Looks like an elephant fetus to me.

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Lars(Z11a, Sunset 24)

I will say it - I am pro-abortion in the case of rape. Otherwise, this gives more rights to rapists. No woman should have to give birth from rape. The rapist should have to face the consequences - not the victim of rape. I believe that abortion should be mandatory in the case of rape - not the other way around.

In the case of incest, I would leave the decision up to the mother, providing she is over 18 years old. If she is underage, then abortion should be mandatory.

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JodiK

No woman should be forced to give birth, ever, regardless of the circumstances... period!


And why can't anyone seem to answer the question of why they require so much control over the bodily parts and functions of others... anyone?

C'mon... it's a simple question. Why do you need to control the workings of reproductive parts that do not belong to you?

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Jane

Facts and logic don't fit the pro-life narrative.

They aren't "pro-life".

They kill doctors, they murder, they assault, they kidnap, they burn, they destroy.

And they have the audacity to claim they are acting for a god.

They are anti-women, anti-children, anti-family, unless, of course, the woman, the child, the family, are white and christian. They are even allowed to have abortions.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Imagine killing doctors because you disagree with them.

Imagine shouting in the face of women that are walking into a clinic even though you don't know if she is definitely there for an abortion or the circumstances of her decision.

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Jane

Imagine killing doctors because you disagree with them. Imagine shouting in the face of women that are walking into a clinic even though you don't know if she is definitely there for an abortion or the circumstances of her decision.

It's hard to imagine that there are people in American, in 2019, who carry around so much hate, day after day, that they would behave in such a manner. Yet they are being encouraged to do violence, day after day, by so-called christians, and even republican lawmakers and the president.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Glutton for punishment that I am, let me try another analogy.

You know the difference between cake batter and cake. Batter has all the necessary ingredients to become cake, but it isn't cake. Cake is made of batter, but it isn't batter. You put batter in the oven. At some point it becomes cake. Early on, it's still batter, not yet cake. Later, it's cake and no longer batter.

What the discussion is about is at what point does the batter fully become cake? At what point does a fetus become fully formed enough that it acquires the rights of a full-fledged human being. Early on, it is a potential human life, but it is not a fully-formed human...it only contains the ingredients to become one, but it isn't one yet. In those early stages, the fully-fledged human has the rights and jurisdiction over her own body, the potential human does not.

Beyond that the number of things that can go wrong in the process as well as the risks and benefits assessments of a woman's health, the potential baby's health and medical capacities are such that no blanket law can cover every eventuality. Every situation is different, every assessment for what's best for all involved is different. And everyone has the right to choose what is best for them. A blanket law that attempts to interfere with a private matter that should be among the woman, her doctor and her god will only cause more suffering than it solves. These anti-abortion laws will not saving babies, they will kill women.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I wish I had a direct link for the video I posted above, but I don't so I'll summarize what he said here....but I wish people would watch it as it's very moving.

He is pro life but he is aware of the medical issues involved due to his niece's situation. She was happily pregnant, but they found out that she did not have enough amniotic fluid. Some of the amniotic fluid comes from the mother, but the rest comes from the fetus through its excretory system. So they investigated and found out her baby-to-be had no kidneys or bladder. The doctors explained to her that if she carried to term, the baby would only survive a day or two and it's short life would be very painful. Rather than be the instrument of her baby's suffering and death, she chose to abort this pregnancy and try again. He concludes that the decision cannot be made by far removed state legislatures, but must be between the woman, her doctor and her god. I agree.

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Jane

Imagine having to allow a rapist have unsupervised visits with your baby daughter

Toddler dies after sex assault in Virginia motel room

Nariah was born prematurely, and, for three months, she fought to live.

Aija Brown said she never missed a day at the hospital, and pledged to her baby girl that she would never leave her side. A promise she said she kept until the very end.

The mother of 17-month-old Nariah Brown, Aija Brown, told WTVR she left her daughter in a South Richmond motel room with a person she trusted.

Police confirmed a person of interest in the case has been jailed in the alleged May 8 attack. He was arrested by U.S. Marshals on a probation violation, WTVR reports.

Benjamin Taylor sentenced to life without mercy

A jury on Tuesday afternoon has found Benjamin Taylor guilty of the murder and rape of a 10-month-old girl.

After only about two hours of deliberations, jurors found Taylor guilty of first-degree murder, guilty of death by child abuse, and guilty of sexual abuse by a guardian.

The jury recommended no mercy. Taylor rocked back and forth with his hand over one side of his face during the verdict.

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Fuhgetabauti

Abortion is a barbaric practice. With so many contraception options readily available it has no place in the civilized world.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

But yet the US won't help poorer countries distribute birth control ... all because they might also counsel them about abortion. Do you see how that works? More abortion because we refused to help them because they might have talked about abortion ... good job there, brainiacs.

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sowkmom

I’m not sure how many times it needs to be said...no birth control is 100% effective. NONE. Even sterilization methods have a small chance of failure. Abstinence isn’t the answer either. In fact it’s completely unrealistic.

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texasranger2

Annie---That tired old argument is worn out.

If I spend hours mixing ingredients for a cake and have it in the oven and you came into my house and maliciously took it out of the oven before its baked and tossed it on the ground as if it was trash and destroyed it, I would not say you ruined my batter. Or my ingredients. I would say you destroyed my cake. Once I start mixing those ingredients I am making a cake and have no other intention other than making a cake.

I suppose next you will be trying to convince me if we eat the cake, its like eating a baby.

Dumb argument.

Everyone knows the sexual act between a man and a woman often results in conceiving a baby. It is what it is. That is the purpose of the act as nature intended.

Obviously you and other pro-abortion people need to go into all these biological steps and technicalities in order to look for loopholes to put your conscience at ease to end the conception of the baby or to kill it at some point in its development, but its just another way to justify abortion which is killing a baby. We all know the process but the process doesn't justify the killing unless you need to think that way for whatever reason. You can repeat this over and over again until you are blue in the face but it only comes across like a desperate attempt to convince yourself or preach to the choir so you can all feel legitimized.

I don't need those contortions to convince myself of such things. Pro-life people will never be convinced by such a ham-handed tactic intended to manipulate the biological process in order to fit an ideology.

The Germans used to use similar arguments to convince themselves, such as it was OK to eliminate vermin. First you have to de-humanize the target. Then you can kill it.

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Fuhgetabauti

But yet the US won't help poorer countries distribute birth control ... all because they might also counsel them about abortion

So the entities receiving our money can stop counseling about abortion. Someone else can do that that is not receiving foreign money. I don't see why that's so hard.

I’m not sure how many times it needs to be said...no birth control is
100% effective. NONE. Even sterilization methods have a small chance of
failure. Abstinence isn’t the answer either. In fact it’s completely
unrealistic.

I think engaging in an act which nature efficiently designed for procreation and expecting to prevent pregnancy with 100% efficiency is unrealistic.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" So the entities receiving our money can stop counseling about abortion. Someone else can do that that is not receiving foreign money. I don't see why that's so hard. "

So you're recommending that they just move things around and pretend like they are not doing it? Brilliant.


The sneaky sleight of hand preferred by conservatives.

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HU-73492036

I think engaging in an act which nature efficiently designed for procreation and expecting to prevent pregnancy with 100% efficiency is unrealistic.

-----------------

So your solution for preventing unwanted pregnancy is total abstinence except for procreation?

100% unrealistic.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Everyone knows the sexual act between a man and a woman often results in conceiving a baby.

Would that were true...if all children received proper sex education and information about contraception, we'd have abortion be a lot rarer activity. But unfortunately, it's not true.

And we also have the issue of so many men who don't care...they want the act but not the result. They accuse women of 'entrapment' but refuse to take active steps to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancy as they so often don't bear the burden of the result. A rapist doesn't care...a child abuser doesn't care...a drunk doesn't care...a half-baked teen doesn't care...but the woman must deal with the result...*always*.


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Annie Deighnaugh

I say all fecund males should have vasectomies and then have sperm medically extracted if they want children. If that's not possible? Who cares...doesn't seem to bother the anti-choicers that ectopic pregnancies can't be recovered...

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catspat(aka)

I think forcing a woman to go into sepsis, and worse, in order to obtain a necessary abortion is barbaric, and that is where we are headed with these extreme laws.

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Chi

"The Germans used to use similar arguments to convince themselves, such as it was OK to eliminate vermin. First you have to de-humanize the target. Then you can kill it."

Comparing allowing women body autonomy with what the Nazis did is incredibly disrespectful. If you think abortion is anything like what Jewish people went through, then you need a history lesson.

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Fuhgetabauti

So your solution for preventing unwanted pregnancy is total abstinence except for procreation?

No, my solution is using birth control with the understanding there's a very very very small chance it might not work, and assuming that responsibility when you engage in the act like an adult.

So you're recommending that they just move things around and pretend like they are not doing it? Brilliant.

All anyone is asking is keep the books separate so you can guarantee the

American taxpayer is not directly or indirectly paying for abortion.

A rapist doesn't care...a child abuser doesn't care...a drunk doesn't
care...a half-baked teen doesn't care...but the woman must deal with the
result...*always*.

The whole rape argument is a strawman. How many abortions taking place in the US are a direct result of rape?

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Fuhgetabauti

Comparing allowing women body autonomy

Except we're talking about another human being here.

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Rudebekia

"Comparing allowing women body autonomy with what the Nazis did is
incredibly disrespectful. If you think abortion is anything like what
Jewish people went through, then you need a history lesson."


Abortion brutally tears apart a child, or burns it to death, in the womb. It is torture, pure and simple. The child screams in pain. Unfortunately those who support abortion rights--those who often would rightfully abhor torturing an animal much less a human--purposely refuse to learn the truth.


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Chi

"Unfortunately those who support abortion rights--those who often would rightfully abhor torturing an animal much less a human--purposely refuse to learn the truth."

What truth? You don't think pro-choicers are aware of what abortion means for the embryo? We are. We still think it's wrong for the government to force women to have babies against their will.

So I assume you're totally fine with child rape victims being forced to give birth too, like this bill supports, Rudebekia?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Mis-statements everywhere.

"I would not say you ruined my batter. Or my ingredients. I would say you destroyed my cake."

You might say that, TR, but you would be incorrect. It was a "cake-to-be"--not a full-fledged cake. And depending on when the cake-to-be was tossed on the floor--such as, EARLY in the baking process--it might be more appropriate to describe it as BATTER, perhaps beginning to slightly thicken, but definitely not a cake yet--no matter what you call it.

~~~

"The child screams in pain."

Three errors there, Rudebek. There is no "child" in the uterus, only a FETUS. And the fetus cannot scream nor can it feel pain until the 3rd trimester (which begins at about 27 weeks, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Physicians).

Kate


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Fuhgetabauti

At what point does the fetus become a child in your opinion Kate ?

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texasranger2

Annie---- borrowing your illustration-----What you really want is to have your cake and eat it too---preferably provided by taxpayers.

You want guarantees that people can engage in sex as often as they desire, in any situation, with as many people as they want and be 100% assured nothing "bad' will happen. You want free preventative measures against disease or consequences of your activity handed out by the government to insure a "bad" thing doesn't happen and if something "bad" does happen, you demand it is to be "taken care of" preferably at no cost to you, the innocent victim, who should never have to bear any liability, responsibility or cost.

Nothing in life is like that. For every act there is a result.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" preferably provided by taxpayers "

I don't think anyone here has ever said they want abortions paid for by taxpayers.

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Fuhgetabauti

I don't think anyone here has ever said they want abortions paid for by taxpayers.

What if a woman can't afford it but wants an abortion, what should be done ?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

TR has a super-active imagination.

Nowhere have I ever read or heard of pro-choicers saying such things. Only in the warped imaginations of anti-choicers!

Kate

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texasranger2

'A Cake to Be'

Sounds like a good abortion story for children.

I hate to say this Dublin but you sound like you are loosing your mind over these new laws and are searching desperately for arguments for dummies.

Even cakes can come in useful.

You call your cake a "cake to be" if it fits into your idea of correct speak. You can even abort your cake if it gives you a victorious feeling to do so. Go for it.

As for me, when I'm making a cake, thats all I am doing---just making a cake. Me and my little mixer. When I stick my cake in the oven to bake it, I will still call it a cake (because I always have). While its baking at 350---that's my cake baking.

I don't know about your "cake to be" but its actually impossible for my cake to be compared to a baby because I can make it all by myself and don't need a partner, if you get my meaning.

How dumb can you get?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"you are loosing your mind over these new laws and are searching desperately for arguments for dummies."

Nope--I'm busy refuting arguments for dummies.

Shall we now lapse into insulting each other so that Houzz comes along and ends it all by deleting the entire thread?

I know that is a common method some of you anti-choicers use to get rid of threads where you are losing the argument.

Kate

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texasranger2

'A Cake to Be'


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HU9999

With so many contraception options readily available it has no place in the civilized world.

Birth control reduces the need for abortions. It does not eliminate it.

Birth control does not prevent an embryo that is so malformed it cannot live.

Birth control does not prevent pregnancies that will kill the mother if allowed to continue.

And sometimes, birth control fails, no matter how careful one is.

One wouldn't think this would need to be stated, but apparently it does.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

That would be the equivalent of a late-term fetus, TR. And as you know, late-term abortions are rare (less than 1% of abortions) and occur only when there is a medical necessity--the woman's life or health at serious risk, a badly deformed fetus, plus cases of rape or incest.

Your "late-term" cake appears not to be seriously deformed (though slightly bulging on one end) and I assume your life is not at risk as it continues baking, so I don't think there is anything for you to worry about as it bakes to full-term.

Kate

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texasranger2

First you have to dehumanize it. Then you can kill it.

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catticusmockingbird

Should never have been forced to be born.


alabama-abortion-law-rape_n_5cdc3627e4b09d94af53f471


"I have a front row seat to my daughter’s suffering for an entire year ― the grief moves toward us day by day, merciless and unstoppable. Every other moment until her final one, she lives in pain. I wake to change her diaper in the morning and I find an angry red rash that had not been there five hours ago. I apologize to her, my tears falling on the collar of her onesie as I smear hydrocortisone on her. Even this sort of stimulus to pain sends her into a tonic seizure. Her legs stiffen, her body locks so tight I’m afraid her bones will break. She is diagnosed with diabetes insipidus. She has to have her IV placed in the vein along her skull, because every other vein collapses as soon as it’s touched. Her body is swollen from being unable to regulate its own fluids. She hardly looks like herself. I hold her hand in my open palm, stroking over the distention of her skin. I can’t make out her tiny knuckles.

I am afraid to lie down with Zoe because her reflux, even medicated, is so severe that the risk of aspiration makes it unsafe for her to sleep prostrate. Zoe can’t cry, so she can’t let us know if she has vomited. We always have her in our arms. I sit propped with my back against the headboard of the bed, I clutch Zoe to my chest to keep her warm, and I stare out into the dark corners of my room. My fingertips press against the pulse point on Zoe’s wrist and I count the beats to stay awake.

I have never felt the loss of time as keenly as I do in my year with Zoe ― every inch of her life runs out like sand between my fingers. Do you think I am not preoccupied by it? Can you fathom how many times I held my daughter stiff in my arms and felt like a monster because I could offer her no respite? I blame myself ― even now I rewind to the days after my rape. I wish I could go back and pry open my mouth, make the words come out so that my mother, asleep in her bedroom, would have known what was happening in her kitchen and come to my rescue ― and ultimately Zoe’s rescue. But aren’t solutions to catastrophes always that way afterward ― obvious?"




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jerzeegirl(9b)

That was a very powerful story.

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texasranger2

Abortion in the case of rape and incest represents only about 1% of actual abortion cases. Pro-abortion people like to focus on cases like this in order to divert people from thinking of the other 90+% of actual cases. Its an old trick at emotional manipulation because we all know from their rhetoric the main issue is so-called 'empowerment of women'. Its always about the woman's needs or wants and never the baby. They don't care about the baby. Its about power and control.

That is a sad story. There are many different kinds of sad stories----stories of women being coerced into getting abortions against their will that could be posted just as easily. Stories of women regretting their decision to abort. There are recorded cases of Planned Parenthood not reporting obvious cases of abuse as the perform abortions on minors brought in by their abusers without parental knowledge, sometimes these abusers have taken their victim to the same clinic more than once and its not reported.

That innocent baby did nothing wrong but it sounds like you think it should be dead. If the woman is traumatized she should give the child up for adoption. Killing an innocent baby does not erase the crime and two wrongs don't make a right. There is always the possibility a victim would be even more traumatized with an abortion on her conscience for the rest of her life.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" There are recorded cases of Planned Parenthood not reporting obvious cases of abuse as the perform abortions on minors brought in by their abusers without parental knowledge, sometimes these abusers have taken their victim to the same clinic more than once and its not reported. "

You mentioned this before and I believe I asked for some source details. Do you have it or is it just hearsay.?

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Chi

"Abortion in the case of rape and incest represents only about 1% of actual abortion cases. Pro-abortion people like to focus on cases like this in order to divert people from thinking of the other 90+% of actual cases"

And only about 1% of abortions happen after 21 weeks, yet that doesn't stop pro-lifers from latching on to this tiny percentage when describing abortion procedures and talking about killing full-term babies. This goes both ways - either the tiny percentages matter, or they don't.

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catticusmockingbird

That innocent baby did nothing wrong but it sounds like you think it should be dead. If the woman is traumatized she should give the child up for adoption. Killing an innocent baby does not erase the crime and two wrongs don't make a right. There is always the possibility a victim would be even more traumatized with an abortion on her conscience for the rest of her life.


The baby is dead. It suffered horrendously for a year.



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dockside_gw

"Abortion in the case of rape and incest represents only about 1% of actual abortion cases. Pro-abortion people like to focus on cases like this in order to divert people from thinking of the other 90+% of actual cases"

And only about 1% of abortions happen after 21 weeks, yet that doesn't stop pro-lifers from latching on to this tiny percentage when describing abortion procedures and talking about killing full-term babies. This goes both ways - either the tiny percentages matter, or they don't.

Exactly. I was thinking this and you wrote it very succinctly.


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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

That innocent baby did nothing wrong but it sounds like you think it should be dead.


Your failure to acknowledge the incredible cruelty of forcing it to live in pain, and it’s Mother to have to watch that pain helplessly, FOR A YEAR until it’s inevitable death does not translate to anyone thinking it should be dead. Exaggerated comments like that dimish your argument.

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blfenton

I have a couple of questions -

I remember some man - an elected rep (don't remember who) who said that womens bodies will shut down during rape and then she can't get pregnant. I wonder what happened here - oh wait, perhaps she's lying.

Where's the father during this year - I don't seem him helping out or paying child support - Oh wait - he raped her.

I just hope, that although there was no mention of it - that she was able to access some sort of help during the year of caring for Zoe that the anti-abortionists say will be there. Oh wait - they don't say that will be provided either.

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enegiram


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Jane

First you have to dehumanize it. Then you can kill it.

You've learned Trump's lessons well

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catticusmockingbird

touché

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dandyfopp

Two hundred posts. Come on Donnie fans, show some guts.

If you get your dream and abortion is banned, what next?

What will the penalty be for women and girls who defy the law and murder their baby? If it is banned it is logically inconsistent that there will not be punishment.

What is the penalty for murder?

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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catticusmockingbird

Trae Crowder's latest is worth a search via youtube. Not for the those with "sensitive" ears.

Liberal Redneck -- Bama Abortion Ban


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texasranger2

Girl babies have a uterus.

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dockside_gw

For those who think the zygote/embryo/fetus is a person, please tell me what I should have done with the approx. 2 month embryo that I miscarried and flushed down the toilet. Should I have

had a funeral, bought a coffin and buried it in a cemetery? Please tell me what all those women who have spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) should do with the blob of tissue.(1/3 of those who get pregnant) when they spontaneously abort it. Ever thought about that?

And the embryo that I spontaneously aborted (which caused me untold grief because I knew that I would not have a baby in 7 more months, a feat I had been so looking forward to) was a blob of tissue. I saw nothing resembling a human being. That is not being heartless. It is stating fact.

I am sooo soooo tired of people, especially ignorant men or controlling men, or misogynistic men, telling women what they must do or may not do in such a personal situation.

Maybe we need some women introducing bills throughout the country's legislatures that require any young man that they must wait several days to purchase a gun and that there should only be one or two stores in the state where they can buy one, get a parent's permission to buy one or go before a judge to get the judge's permission before buying one. Maybe then they will understand what some women have to go through. But, I guess their heavenly father hasn't imparted any wisdom to them in that regard so it's all o.k. (this is a snide remark aimed at one of the legislators sponsoring the AL bill who admitted he had no idea what is was like to be pregnant so would rely on what his heavenly father told him).

It can't be repeated too often. If you don't think abortion is right, don't have one. Set an example. But stay the he!! out of the lives of women who think differently than you.

As you can tell, I have very firm, unchangeable beliefs on this matter and any other matter where someone tries to tell me and half the humans in this world how they must live and take away their autonomy. I have experienced it many, many times in my lifetime and really thought, about 40 years ago, that we wouldn't still be fighting for women's equality and autonomy in this day and age.

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texasranger2

dockside--- the majority of people on the pro-life side are women and your desire for revenge on men is kind of creepy.

Sunshine---if you don't know this by now its time you woke up. Most men are not interested in a woman's uterus. That is not the part of the body men focus on or the part of the anatomy that interests them.

Most men hate hearing about a woman's uterus let alone want to control it and they especially hate hearing about the gory details of the monthly functioning of a woman's body. It is pro-choice women who are incessantly focused on their own uteruses so they mistakenly think everyone else is just as focused and fascinated.

Frankly, if the rest of us never heard about you gal's uteruses again or witness them being bandied about publicly we would all greatly appreciate it.


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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

Maybe we need some women introducing bills throughout the country's legislatures that require any young man that they must wait several days to purchase a gun and that there should only be one or two stores in the state where they can buy one, get a parent's permission to buy one or go before a judge to get the judge's permission before buying one. Maybe then they will understand what some women have to go through.


How about before they’re allowed to have sex? And absolutely no blow jobs, that would be cannibalism.



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VedaBeeps SoCal 9b/10a(9b/10)

Sunshine---if you don't know this by now its time you woke up. Most men are not interested in a woman's uterus. That is not the part of the body men focus on or the part of the anatomy that interests them.

Most men hate hearing about a woman's uterus let alone want to control it and they especially hate hearing about the gory details of the monthly functioning of a woman's body. It is pro-choice women who are incessantly focused on their own uteruses so they mistakenly think everyone else is just as focused and fascinated.


So, they’re not mature enough to have a discussion about women’s bodies but they can legislate against them? That’s really sad and really really wrong. I’m thankful the men in my life have never been that immature.

Gory functioning of a woman's body? Really? Gory? There is nothing “gory” about the natural process of menstruation. I sincerely hope you have never taught a young woman to be ashamed of her body and it’s natural processes.

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catticusmockingbird

Sunshine? Are you referring to Sunflower?

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catticusmockingbird

Most men hate hearing about a woman's uterus let alone want to control it and they especially hate hearing about the gory details of the monthly functioning of a woman's body


That reveals more about you than we needed to know.

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Ziemia(6a)

There is nothing gory about a healthy uterus.

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Chi

"Frankly, if the rest of us never heard about you gal's uteruses again or witness them being bandied about publicly we would all greatly appreciate it."

Then maybe your side should stop trying to control what others do with their uteruses.

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dockside_gw

I see that no one has responded to my question about what to do with a spontaneously aborted embryo.

.And tr, it's not all men I'm referring to - it's those in power in government who think they should be able to dictate to all women what they cannot do if they become pregnant. Especially since they have no idea, and never will, about what women experience during and after pregnancy. And, if my tongue-in-cheek proposal about governing young men's constitutional rights appears to you as revenge, get a grip.

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Chi

I'm sorry that happened to you, dockside. The same thing happened to me last year, and as far as I know the embryo became medical waste after my emergency d&c. Mine was very early, maybe 6 or 7 weeks, and I didn't consider it a baby but rather a potential baby.

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catticusmockingbird

I miscarried twins in my 5th month. That was back in 1973. I was forced to bury the remains. That's not something I would have chosen to do.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Catticus, I'm so sorry.

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ubro(2a)

Most men are not interested in a woman's uterus. That is not the part of the body men focus on or the part of the anatomy that interests them. Most men hate hearing about a woman's uterus let alone want to control it and they especially hate hearing about the gory details of the monthly functioning of a woman's body.

I disagree, I am sure there are many men who are both relieved and glad to know about their sexual partners months functions, especially that they are on time.

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Annie Deighnaugh

...if you don't know this by now its time you woke up. Most men are not interested in a woman's uterus. That is not the part of the body men focus on or the part of the anatomy that interests them....

No, of course not...it's other parts that turn them on...they'd rather not know nor be involved in any way with what happens after they make their deposit. But guess what. A woman doesn't have that *choice*. The woman *must* deal with whatever results.

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Jane

Matt Walsh, Self described “theocratic fascist” thinks we should force a 12-year-old girl raped by her father to give birth because the incest baby would prove the girl was raped.

To be clear, Walsh is an idiot. Pregnancy alone proves the girl was raped. To claim that the girl must give birth in order to prove she was raped suggests that Walsh is an imbecile unable or unwilling to engage in anything resembling critical thinking.

To repeat, Walsh is an idiot. More important, he is a cruel and dangerous idiot who believes his naive and ignorant religious superstition justifies his despicable cruelty.

His callous attitude towards the fate of a little girl is a strong indication that this man is bereft of moral compass, and is lacking compassion, empathy, kindness, and basic human decency.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Let's not forget about Rep barry hovis in MO who talked about "consensual rape" and called a rapist jumping out of bushes a "gentlemen"...he has since apologized making an excuse. Yeah right. "Consensual rape" "legitimate rape" it's all always the woman's fault, never the man's.

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blfenton

I think he said that date rape is consensual rape. And what's really frightening is that he use to be a police officer.

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Kathy

What about all the embryos in fertility clinics? why is it only about embryos in women? It seems is more about the women than the embryos.

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Linda

Pure pro-life means no capital punishment, no war, prevention of all mass shootings, prevention of accidental shootings, keeping brain-dead patients on life support until they die naturally, mandatory health insurance for all to prevent premature deaths due to preventable diseases, and regulations to protect workers against accidents and diseases due to the unhealthy or dangerous practices of their employers. It means all people should live a healthy and happy life when possible.

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Kathy

The RW are good at attaching righteous labels. That just don’t live up to them.

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Annie Deighnaugh

blfenton, no he made two points and even counted them on his fingers as he said it: date rape and consensual rape.



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kaych

texasranger2

It is pro-choice women who are incessantly focused on their own uteruses so they mistakenly think everyone else is just as focused and fascinated.

Yes, they'll use any means necessary to take the focus off of the paid-for intentional killing of an innocent human life, how it is disposed of, sold, or donated for the betterment of 'science' & 'healthcare'. There are only a few other topics I know where their propaganda is believed in more.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Yelizaveta "Liza" Pantueva was 5 years old when her 70-year-old maternal grandfather raped and impregnated her. She had her 6th birthday several days before giving birth. Pantueva's parents did not want the obstetricians to perform a cesarean section, as it was considered dangerous at the time. She gave birth in Kharkiv, with the aid of forceps and retractors. The 3 kg (6.6 lb), 52 cm (20 in) infant girl died during labor due to an early placental tear....

Gee...do you suppose that was consensual rape? Much better to let a 6-yr old go to full term so she can suffer all that pain, risk death, only to deliver a dead baby. So much better to let those decisions be made by a bunch of pols yakking around a rotunda rather than by the girl, parents, her physician and her god who understand her individual situation...

SMH

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Prim Rose

AL law is stupid and won't pass thru the courts which is the reason for these states trying to pass gross overreaches into private lives, hoping to make it to the SC where kav will do trumpy's bidding.


Takes 5. Don't be so sure about Roberts. He may not want his legacy to be a political bombshell.

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kaych

Democrats unhinged over Alabama’s abortion bill

David Limbaugh · May 17, 2019

Alabama’s mostly Republican lawmakers and governor passed a strong abortion ban this week, and liberals are fit to be tied.

“Today, I signed into law the Alabama Human Life Protection Act, a bill that was approved by overwhelming majorities in both chambers of the legislature,” said Gov. Kay Ivey. “To the bill’s many supporters, this legislation stands as a powerful testament to Alabamians’ deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God.”

In today’s secular culture, the governor’s invocation of God is almost as bold as signing the bill into law. But it’s gratifying that some public officials are willing to observe that respect for life is fundamentally a spiritual issue.

I’m sure many leftists are horrified at the reference to God, but they have their hands full hyperventilating over the strictness of the law itself, and so, they will probably let this slide for now. The bill prohibits abortion except when the life of the mother is in jeopardy or the unborn child has a “lethal anomaly.” The bill makes it a felony for doctors to perform or attempt to perform an abortion.

In her statement, Ivey acknowledged that the law might not be constitutional under the Supreme Court’s notorious 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion in all 50 states. But she noted that the bill’s sponsors hope the bill will prompt the court to revisit this issue.

Not to be unduly pessimistic, but frankly, I’m not sure why Democrats are so exercised. Justices Roberts and Kavanaugh have both expressed their abiding respect for long-standing Supreme Court precedent, apparently even if, like Roe, its rationale was manufactured out of whole cloth. The court’s decision was not only egregious in substance — inventing a constitutional right to abortion out of imaginary language in the Constitution creatively referred to as “emanations” and “penumbras”; its effect on society was just as bad.

Before the decision, the issue of abortion was the prerogative of the individual states, determined democratically by their duly elected representatives. The court’s fiat was not only erroneous on its face; it tyrannically divested the authority of the states. This federal judicial travesty sparked national acrimony over abortion. Judicial tyranny, where it occurs, is just as bad as executive despotism.

Here we are almost 50 years later, and the court still hasn’t overturned Roe. But when any of the sovereign states dares to pass a law outside Roe’s parameters, liberals become unhinged, huffing hysterically about the state’s audacity to deviate from the court’s ruling.

Yet every day, liberals around the nation enact measures they know violate existing constitutional precedent with the undisguised intent that they serve as test cases and that courts, under relentless pressure from their activism, will change the law. When liberals do it, it’s noble activism; when conservatives do it, it’s anarchy.

The Guardian, for example, framed the Alabama law in racial and gender terms. Why not? That’s what liberals do. It’s almost all they know anymore. “These 25 Republicans — all white men — just voted to ban abortion in Alabama,” the headline reads. The law, according to the article, “will disproportionately affect black and poor women, because they are more likely to seek abortions, and less likely to have resources to obtain an abortion out-of-state.”

Not once did the article allude to the only innocent party in the equation: the unborn baby. Nor did it mention that America’s abominably liberal abortion laws result in the grossly disproportionate killing of innocent black babies. Pro-life leaders in the black community have said that “the most dangerous place for an African-American is in the womb” and that abortion “is the most institutionalized form of racism” in America.

Planned Parenthood, the left’s favorite abortion factory, was outraged at the bill. “Today is a dark day for women in Alabama and across the country,” said Staci Fox, CEO of Planned Parenthood Southeast. “Banning abortion is horrible … We will take this to court and ensure abortion remains safe and legal and accessible in the state of Alabama.” She forgot “profitable.”

Democratic leaders were seemingly in a competition over who could condemn the law most harshly. Hillary Clinton said it is an example of “appalling attacks on women’s lives and fundamental freedoms.” We can safely infer that she was not factoring in the female babies’ lives the law would protect. Sen. Elizabeth Warren said the “ban is dangerous and exceptionally cruel.” She did not comment on whether the law is cruel to the unborn babies. Warren and Sen. Kamala Harris both noted that the law is an attack on Roe v. Wade.

Yes, that’s kind of the point, and Alabama’s Republicans are admitting it. Isn’t it about time the court revisited Roe in earnest? What these Democrats don’t say is that their best hope of preserving existing abortion law is for the court to affirm its lawless 1973 decision, either through some newly created legal fiction or in almost-idolatrous fidelity to long-standing but screamingly bad precedent.

As I say, I doubt the court, even as currently constituted, will overrule Roe outright, but it would be a glorious day for America, and for God’s innocent unborn babies, if it were to do so.

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/limbaugh-democrats-unhinged-alabamas-abortion-bill/

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kaych

If we do not stand for life, we stand for nothing

Jen Kuznicki · May 17, 2019


Some say they are pro-life, but then equivocate on certain life. In doing so, they commit further injustice and reject the individual right to life.

This nation has gone way too far on abortion, and we are now witnessing America passing stricter laws regulating abortion because the people’s collective conscience has finally had enough. Pro-aborts have been trained to believe and stand up for a “woman’s right” that doesn’t exist. The barbaric ritual performed in clinics across this nation has never been about empowering women or giving them choices. Abortion has always been about destroying what is good.

What else do you call the force of evil? Evil sets out to destroy what is good.

This week’s abortion ban in Alabama has some reeling because of its totality. Pat Robertson said it went too far. Though the man is against abortion, he believes this particular ban will not do what he and others want, which is to ultimately fight to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Others wish the words “in case of incest or rape” were plugged into the ban, so that the most controversial and sensitive circumstances of conception and childbirth could be exempted from the totality of the ban.

But it’s not OK to kill an innocent life sometimes, under certain circumstances.

At this time in the political arena, the Left is pushing farther and farther toward claiming to be defenders the Constitution and the purveyors of morality. Their own brazen advocacy of abortion up until birth proves them wrong, because abortion is unequivocally immoral.

The focus ought to be on the innocent life: A person is a person, whether born or unborn. This nation must once again decide whether all innocent life has value and stop the dehumanization of certain human beings.

We must stand in agreement that Roe v. Wade is not constitutional law. There is no right to privacy in the Constitution, and no woman has the right to take the life of another.

We must acknowledge that the child is an individual, growing within the mother, whose very growth means it is a human life. We must stand to protect that defenseless life so that we can stand without hypocrisy for the individual rights guaranteed in our Founding.

As Abraham Lincoln said of the meaning of the Declaration of Independence:

“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” This was their majestic interpretation of the economy of the Universe. This was their lofty, and wise, and noble understanding of the justice of the Creator to His creatures. Yes, gentlemen, to all His creatures, to the whole great family of man. In their enlightened belief, nothing stamped with the Divine image and likeness was sent into the world to be trodden on, and degraded, and imbruted by its fellows. They grasped not only the whole race of man then living, but they reached forward and seized upon the farthest posterity. They erected a beacon to guide their children and their children’s children, and the countless myriads who should inhabit the earth in other ages.

If we continue to allow abortion advocates to characterize an unborn life as less than human, as akin to a tumor, nobody is safe. We must decide whether human life has value. We must acknowledge that life begins at conception, and we must advocate for the protection of innocent life at all stages.

From the moment of conception until natural death, we must advocate for the right to life in this nation, the last, best hope of mankind.

https://www.conservativereview.com/news/not-stand-life-stand-nothing/

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Jane

Alabama has the fourth worst infant mortality rate in the country.

After signing the country’s strictest abortion ban into law Wednesday, Alabama Gov. Kay Ivey (R) explained her reasoning in a statement, citing “Alabamians’ deeply held belief that every life is precious and that every life is a sacred gift from God.”

But that belief is not reflected in the state’s abysmal statistics when it comes to child mortality, child poverty, food insecurity, education, child care, or paid family leave. Indeed, Ivey’s stated commitment to giving “every person the best chance for a quality life and promising future” doesn’t seem to extend beyond the womb.

Alabama has the fourth worst infant mortality rate in the country, at 7.4 deaths for every 1,000 births, according to the most recent Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) data. This number is actually the lowest in the state’s history, a glaring sign that infant health has long been a major problem in Alabama. And there are significant disparities between black and white infants: The Alabama Department of Public Health found that the 2015 infant mortality rate for black infants was the highest it has been in a decade, at 15.3 per 1,000 births, while the white infant mortality rate was at its lowest, at 5.2.

The Alabama legislature has done little to tackle this problem, choosing instead to focus primarily on “fringe issues and oddball causes that don’t improve Alabamians’ lives and health,” the editorial board of a local newspaper wrote in 2018.

About 26.5% of children in Alabama live in poverty, including about 30% of children under the age of 5.

Alabama is also one of the most food insecure states in the country, with more than 16% of the population struggling to afford food. This means that more than one in five children grow up hungry. Last year, 38,000 Alabamians lost eligibility to food stamps.

Alabama consistently ranks as one of the worst states when it comes to public education.

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Jane

dockside--- the majority of people on the pro-life side are women ............

Oh really?

Then why aren't women voting to enact these laws.

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Ziemia(6a)

Alabama's prisons are barely past Medieval conditions.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Alabama executed a prisoner the day after signing this bill and declaring every life precious. Now that is hypocrisy at it's best. the governor made both decisions and the statement.

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texasranger2

What are you talking about? Women are voting. More women are voting pro-life than men.

Alabama may have its problems as indeed all states do but they look pretty good when contrasted with the Pro-Choice record.

Planned Parenthood realized long ago the importance of semantics when speaking or thinking about abortion. They have put a lot of time into their talking points. These talking points provide their converts a means to justify and to think positively about abortion. They are even convinced they are helping to lowering abortion rates in the process by focusing people's minds on birth control and education with the goal of ending abortion. All the while, the abortion procedures go on and on and on as scheduled. Planned Parenthood has been so successful in its constructed message and 'talking points' that these adherents are fully convinced they are the ones on the right side of morality and that the pro-life group are the evil people.

Is it any wonder "pro-choice" people all spout the exact same message word for word. They are mouthing the dogma provided by Planned Parenthood who uses repetition and semantics to put its talking points into the mouths of ordinary citizens. That is why they come across almost cult-like in their uniformity of belief, dogma and emotional zeal. To them, anything other than this message is evil.

They portray the Pro-life movement as a group of radical extremists who want nothing more than to control others and hurt women. Crazy people one and all. This is in spite of the fact that it is the pro-life people who offer alternatives and real help to women in crisis. That is why so many of them step up to women entering the clinics and offer to adopt the child. For each unwanted child in America, there are about 35 couples wanting to adopt.

As a result there have been more deaths from abortion than all deaths from cancer, malaria, HIV/AIDS, smoking, alcohol and traffic accidents combined.

The reason women are escorted into these abortion facilities is not for their safety as Planned Parenthood would have us believe. It is so they will not be 'bothered' with alternative choices that are being offered by the pro-life people who devote their time and energy into helping these women and prevent them from making a decision that many women live to regret. Planned Parenthood does not want its clients to hear that message and instead demonizes the pro-life people offering help, prayers and counseling to women in crisis situations. The pro-life activists know how confused and frightened these women are and that many are really undecided or cannot think clearly due to their predicament. Many of them have had abortions and want to rescue other women from making the same mistake they did.

Unlike the workers at Planned Parenthood clinics, pro-choice volunteers do not get paid. They volunteer. They care. They want to help.

To suggest that killing the unborn is a way to solve poverty is not only false, it is barbaric. What you are saying is the solution is to kill children so there will be less mouths to feed. What kind of person says things like that? Probably someone who has bought into the Planned Parenthood dogma because most people aren't really that cruel. They are just brainwashed.

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Jane

Then why aren't women voting to enact these laws.

That would be women in the state legislatures! They are the only ones who can vote to enact laws

More women are voting pro-life than men.

Can you document that with any actual facts.

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Chi

"They are even convinced they are helping to lowering abortion rates in the process by focusing people's minds on birth control and education with the goal of ending abortion"

So how do you explain the steadily decreasing abortion rate? If PP is out there churning out abortions instead of preventing them, wouldn't the abortion rate be increasing?

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Annie Deighnaugh

Thanks, Jane...I was just about to ask to see evidence of women voting anti-choice. I mean how would one know?

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enegiram


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Pidge_

We choose life over death.

No, you don't.

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texasranger2

Pidge----If you choose an abortion over carrying the child choosing death is exactly what you do. Every woman knows this at some level no matter how deeply she has buried it or closed off her mind to the facts. This reality often comes back to haunt the women who chose abortions. They know. Everyone knows.

That is what abortion is all about. A woman chooses life or death of the child she is carrying. Its that simple.

Guttmacher uses the lower abortion findings to argue for government funding for contraceptions. However it is far from clear that more contraceptive funding would lower the abortion rater. Guttmacher's own research indicates that very few sexually active women forgo contraceptives due to cost or availability. Additionally, there is no substantial body of peer-reviews evidence that shows contraceptive funding lowers abortion rates.

Very ew media outlets take a long term view when asking why the numbers of abortions declined since the early 1990's. Conservatives take pride in this decline and know key reasons include more pro-life laws being passed at state levels namely parental involvement and informed consent laws.

There are also lower numbers of abortion providers as fewer physicians are interested in performing abortions.

There is also evidence of less sexual activity among teens. The pro-life position has made consistent gains in the court of public opinion especially among young people even though those pro-life success stories get little or no coverage.




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Chi

"Conservatives take pride in this decline and know key reasons include more pro-life laws being passed at state levels namely parental involvement and informed consent laws."

Okay, so if less abortions are happening because women are choosing not to go through the procedure, or if they aren't legally allowed, why is the birth rate the lowest it's been in 32 years? Where are all these babies that would have been aborted without parental involvement or informed consent going?

If fewer physicians are doing abortions, why are we not seeing more babies being born?

I'll tell you why - unintended pregnancy rates are falling. Common sense says that this is because birth control is becoming more efficient, more affordable and more available.

Believing that a significant amount of people have suddenly changed to be more pro-life and only have sex when they are ready for a baby is a fairytale. While there are some that feel that way, it's not enough to explain decades worth of trends or we would see that reflected in public opinion. Most of America continues to believe abortions should be legal.

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Pidge_

I always regret ever commenting on anything you write, TR, because I just get more and more of your absolutes in long, tedious paragraphs.

There is also evidence of less sexual activity among teens. The pro-life position has made consistent gains in the court of public opinion especially among young people even though those pro-life success stories get little or no coverage.

Not sure how many young people you know or anything about their sexual activities, but this almost makes me laugh.

Okay, I know I am now in for yet another long post telling me why I am wrong and you are right--but then you would never admit you were wrong even if the truth hit you with a brick. Don't you get tired of yourself and your perfection?

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catticusmockingbird

A woman chooses life or death of the child she is carrying. Its that simple.


You can't have death without life. A forming baby is not a life until it is born and can sustain life.

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Pidge_

We need to overturn Roe v Wade and go back to letting the state legislators decide for themselves.

What will you if those legislatures decide that Roe should stand?

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texasranger2

I don't understand your question.

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chijim

texasranger2


chijim--My advice to you is ----contact the people who wrote the bill
and tell them to correct the oversight and include women in the group
who should be punished because you think unless they do, its unfair.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Interesting, you're all for people committing first degree murder not being charged. Why aren't you writing them to change that obvious miss?

We know the reason why



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Pidge_

If the legislators decide that Roe should remain in place, what will you do?

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texasranger2

The same thing I am already doing. Speaking up, defending life and helping people through my church who know where the need is for these women.

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HU-87154335

I never had an abortion nor has any close female in my family but I feel so bad about these women living in these archaic states. I will work as never before to elect Democrats in 2020. I never thought we’d ever go back to coat hanger days. Wait till women start dying in back alley abortions. These old white Christian men need to be voted out .

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JodiK

It's pointless to bring factual information, truth or real statistics into this debate because they just get erased by those who don't agree with our Constitutional rights as they stand.


Anyone who refuses to accept the anti-scientific diatribes posted, and has the audacity to post actual reality regarding the subject... those posts will be quickly eradicated... so read quickly.

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texasranger2

coalkills

My full comment was: "Anyone with half a brain knows you cannot make a state like Alabama with a conservative population into a state like New York who has pushed the envelope into the other extreme to the point of lighting up the Empire State building in Planned Parenthood pink and celebrating"

Tell me what you find "unchristian" in that remark? Unlike your remark, it certainly wasn't a personal attack directed at a specific person. It was a general statement, one which I stand by no matter what your personal opinion might be to the contrary. Lighting up the Empire State Building to celebrate the most extreme abortion laws ever heard of is certainly not something I condone and is definitely not what you would expect in a "Christian" nation---- quite the opposite in fact.

Seriously--- you threw out the accusation so explain why that remark is unchristian. Maybe your version of Christianity has decided to condone the act of abortion. Mine still does not. Christianity has always condemned abortion or a woman killing her own child by her own hand. Maybe your version has changed that basic moral law to suit the prevailing opinion of you and your fellow members but if that is the case your version of what is unChristian or Christian becomes a matter of subjective relativism and cannot be taken seriously.


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Annie Deighnaugh

I'll throw this into the mix because why not?

http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/blog-home/the-bible-tells-us-when-a-fetus-becomes-a-living-being

ETA: Not sure anyone clicked the link, but it's an argument that the bible says life begins at first breath.

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Kathy

The men in those GOP states aren’t writing laws because they are concerned about embryos, babies or pro-life. If they were they would be addressing infant mortality, test tube babies and the death sentence, they would make sure every woman and child has healthcare and food.

It is all about keeping women in their place. It is also about using their political power to stay in office by touting pro-life when their constituents haven’t taken the time or interest to look past the abortion issue.

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Jane

And there are women who support these "men".

Are these women so ignorant that they don't understand why men are doing this?

If these women are opposed to abortion, why do they need men to do the work for them. Don't they know how to vote? Don't they know how to run for office? Don't they know how to get laws passed.

Are they so cowed, so beaten down by their men that they can't even imagine taking the initiative and doing their own work, for issues that are important to them?

Men should have NO standing, no authority, no say in making decisions about women and our reproductive rights.

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Ziemia(6a)

TR: this from you is insulting and more than demeaning.

"Every woman knows this at some level no matter how deeply she ...."

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Ziemia(6a)

About all the women who are pro-life.

Quite possible that most women are for legal abortion access and being hopeful they never are in a position to personally have to decide.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/235646/men-women-generally-hold-similar-abortion-attitudes.aspx

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Jane

Some christians condemn abortion, but where in the Bible is abortion condemned?

Of course killing your own child is wrong, and illegal, but not many women do that. It’s a crime.

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Prim Rose

Clever woman!

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palisades_

Mean as a snake.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

No one is discussing Annie's link above, so I am wondering if they are not clicking on her link--which is very enlightening.

Here is a short excerpt. Particularly important for the Biblical view of abortion.

-----------------------

"According to the bible, a fetus is not a living person with a soul until after drawing its first breath.

After God formed man in Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”. Although the man was fully formed by God in all respects, he was not a living being until after taking his first breath.

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

-----------------------------

In other words, you have to be born before you can draw a breath--which means that you have to be breathing in order to be considered a living human being.

That link discusses other relevant passages in the Bible -- for those of you interested in what the biblical view of abortion is.

Thanks, Annie--very informative link.

Kate

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Jane

Meanwhile, in Georgia

A restrictive Georgia law opened debate about whether women who miscarry could be questioned or maybe even prosecuted.

Georgia’s much-discussed new law on abortion is one of the most restrictive in the nation. Abortion will be banned as early as six weeks into pregnancy.

This law goes even further, though: Although the intent of the law is to block abortion, it has opened a vigorous debate about whether women who miscarry could be questioned or even prosecuted.

The new law, which goes into effect Jan. 1, gives a 6-week-old fetus the legal status of a human being.

This raises the question of whether a woman who miscarries because of what is perceived to be her conduct could be held liable for that conduct.

“This suggests that women who ‘cause the death’ of a fetus, with or without malice, could be charged with second-degree murder,” said Eric Segall, a law professor at Georgia State University, and a supporter of abortion rights. He said the law would most likely be struck down in the lower courts.

Early pregnancy loss is not uncommon. It occurs in about 10 percent of recognized pregnancies. Four out of five cases occur in the first trimester. Many women miscarry before they know they’re pregnant.

About half of miscarriages are because of abnormalities in the fetal chromosomes. These defects are usually incompatible with life, and spontaneous abortions occur. The chance of an early pregnancy loss rises with age. While it is less common in younger women, about 80 percent of pregnancies in 45-year-old women can end this way.

A woman who has health problems in general is more likely to suffer early pregnancy loss than one who does not.

Women with high blood pressure, diabetes and thyroid disease are at higher risk. So are those who have hormone problems, immune disorders or infections.

A 2013 systematic review found that working nights was a risk factor, as were things like working in a three-shift schedule, working 40 to 52 hours per week, and standing for six to eight hours per day.

Smoking has been associated with an increased risk of miscarriage, according to a meta-analysis that included 98 studies. Obesity has also been linked to recurrent miscarriage.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Good one, how2.

Kate

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Jane

If a man rapes a woman, or even gets a partner pregnant, and the woman dies during pregnancy or miscarries the fetus, will the man be charged with murder?

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catticusmockingbird



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HU9999

Let's not forget that some of these self pro-claimed christian pro-lifers have paid for their mistress's abortions, or tried to get them to abort.

They are totally fine with abortion as long as they are the ones making the decision. They just cannot handle a woman having control over her own body.

They're liars, cheats, anything but christian, anything but moral.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Leslie 'Dracarys' (that -itch) Jones is terrific! Hope she is scheduled to appear on SNL more in the future.

Kate

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catticusmockingbird

She's been a regular for the past 5 or 6 years.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Good--love tough humor that hits home!

You can tell I'm not a regular SNL viewer--but I love checking out these excerpts that show up on youtube.

Kate

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JodiK

Federal supersedes state, so the Supreme Court ruling stands. It is a woman's choice to terminate a pregnancy, or not.

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Jane

helping people through my church who know where the need is for these women.

What women need is a government that respects us, and respects our decisions, and respects our rights as women to make decisions that are right for us.

Women don't need, or want religious organizations imposing their beliefs, their intolerance, their racism. their sexism

In 2017, there were 159.41 million men in the United States, compared to 165.92 million women. By 2024, it is projected that there will be 167.08 million men and 173.9 million women in the U.S.

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adoptedbyhounds

Why doesn't the "right to choose" what's in their best interest extend to women who don't feel safe with men in their locker rooms and rest rooms?

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Mina

Is that a big problem for you? Maybe you are in the wrong rest room if you keep finding men in them.

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ubro(2a)

Every woman knows this at some level no matter how deeply she has buried it or closed off her mind to the facts. This reality often comes back to haunt the women who chose abortions. They know. Everyone knows.

Please keep your assumptions contained to yourself. I am part of the everyone and I do not agree with you and many of my female friends do not either.


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ubro(2a)

Annie I read your link and it is very enlightening. I love the song 'What it's Like' by Everlast, the phrase quoted is very apt.

“She heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors;
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore;
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes;
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose.”

~ Erik Francis Schrody (Everlast), from the song, “What It’s Like.”

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Prim Rose

Someone believes she can mindread. And what is read is precisely what she would want to read. Funny how that works. :)

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HU9999

Every woman knows this at some level no matter how deeply she has buried it or closed off her mind to the facts. This reality often comes back to haunt the women who chose abortions. They know. Everyone knows.

This is the 2nd time in the recent history you have declared here what "everyone" knows or thinks.

You were wrong the 1st time and you are wrong this time.

Perhaps everyone you know thinks like you, but that does not mean everyone else does. Expand your horizons a bit and find out what the majority of people think. You might be surprised to find you are the minority.

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texasranger2

In his essay "Why I am an Abortion Provider", Dr. William F. Harrison says:

"No one, neither the patient receiving the abortion, nor the person doing the abortion, is ever, at any time, is unaware that they are ending a life."

The reality is a bit different. Counselors, escorts and employees at places like Planned Parenthood are indoctrinated and trained to intentionally hide and distort the facts from vulnerable women. The baby is described as a "blob of tissue" or "a product of conception" and they are told the abortion "empties out the uterus". Its never a baby. The facts of fetal development are glossed over or outright distorted. Women are coerced, manipulated and lied to. The woman is facing a life changing, irrevocable decision during a time when she is susceptible to being deceived and Planned Parenthood makes use of this vulnerability to meet their quota. Planned Parenthood clinics must meet a quota to make a profit because they loose money in other services they provide. Administrators and workers are intimidated into meeting the quota.

Today it is impossible to keep up the lies due to advanced medical knowledge and facts that most everyone knows whether they admit it or not. Only those who need or want to keep blinders on can manage to keep their minds and words carefully arranged to blur biological facts in order to justify an abortion by using talking points of Planned Parenthood, often for political purposes.

They ignore the legions of stories from women who suffer guilt and regret their abortions. Women who wished someone had been there to warn them. Stories of medical and emotional problems due to abortion are kept out of the media. These are well documented. Anyone who is interested can take the time to research these themselves.

There are those who know abortion ends a life and are fully well they themselves ended a life but simply do not care.

These are the ones who are the most virulent and vicious in their rhetoric and anger against the women and men in the pro-life movement who defend the rights of the innocent. They talk in euphemisms, they parrot Planned Parenthood talking points like cult followers, they blame white men, they get indignant and resort to crude language the vilest name calling, they say the government only wants to control their bodies, they play the victim card, they shamelessly capitalize on outlier cases such as rape or incest to justify abortion, garner sympathy and vilify pro-life people. They lie, distort and say anything they think will draw peoples attention away from the fact that abortion is the killing of an innocent baby and take the focus off the baby and onto themselves as if they are the victims rather than the millions already killed.

Mostly they are trying to convince themselves.

At some level everyone knows abortion kills babies no matter how people attempt to drown out the facts with hysteria, anger, pseudo science and self-serving propaganda. Pro-choice activists are not interested in babies. They avoid using the word baby. They have convinced themselves they are an entitled based on the diabolical belief that they are a special interest group who has a right to kill because their bodies are more important than babies.


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HU9999

Once again with "everybody knows"

No, just because you think it does not mean everybody knows. So far, every time you've said that, it's been wrong. Since you're batting 1.000 in this area, we can assume that every time you say that, the complete opposite is true. Your inability to understand that you do not speak for everyone comes from your own hysteria and anger. Projection is not a good thing.

psuedo science

That's actually hysterical from someone that supports the Republican party which does not believe in science.

Sorry, laughing too hard to respond further.

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texasranger2

Everyone knows abortion means ending a life.

I'll back up on my claim. A person is who is severely brain damaged or mentally challenged, or a mental vegetable would not necessarily know this. So on second thought I admit "everyone" is an exaggeration.

Babies and very small children are too young to understand the concept that abortion is killing. Lets hope most small children are not aware babies are being killed in the womb, especially if its a sibling. That would be a traumatic thought for a small child.

I stand corrected.

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enegiram


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Ziemia(6a)

Opinion, not fact: "No one, neither the patient receiving the abortion, nor the person doing the abortion, is ever, at any time, is unaware that they are ending a life."

Opinion, not fact: "Everyone knows abortion means ending a life."


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adoptedbyhounds

Why doesn't the "right to choose" what's in their best interest extend to women who don't feel safe with men in their locker rooms and rest rooms?

Mina

Is that a big problem for you? Maybe you are in the wrong rest room if you keep finding men in them.


Mina. Democrats have decided men are entitled to use female restrooms and locker rooms if they're more comfortable in those spaces. How do you propose to meet the needs of the women made uncomfortable when men are in the same room with them while they're undressed?


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Ziemia(6a)

ABH: do you have any statistics about the problems created?

You do know, don't you, that the group that campaigned against the trans bill in 2018 used lies about bathrooms to support their cause? That they admitted to using lies?

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catticusmockingbird

Everyone knows abortion means ending a life.

The Bible says life begins at first breath.

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catticusmockingbird

Dina Zirlott, the Alabama teen who was raped and forced to give birth to a baby with hydranencephaly, was on CNN today speaking to Brooke Baldwin.




VIDEO: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2236059013177940

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HU9999

Everyone knows abortion means ending a life.

Wrong again. Just because you keep repeating it does not make it true.

No matter how many times you type it, it's still wrong. I'm sorry you are not able to comprehend that your opinion is not shared by the majority of Americans.

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texasranger2

HU My "opinion" is shared by more people than you realize. Just because in your opinion, you think its perfectly fine to kill an unborn human it is irrelevant to the fact that abortion = killing the unborn no matter what stage of development you are talking about. If a human woman has an abortion by the very definition of the word abortion, you are describing the killing of a human offspring at some stage of its development.

There is no other reason to perform an abortion than to end that life after it has been conceived by killing and removing it. That is what an abortion is according medical procedures and biology and anyone who tries to say otherwise is lying. \

An abortion is not the removal of part of the woman or a tumor or a growth. It is a child at some point of development in her body, not a part of her body. There is only one way it got there and hopefully you don't need that explained as well.

The baby at any stage is a separate being. It is not a uterus or an arm or a leg or any other part of a woman's body. Its heartbeat is not only separate from hers, it beats faster than the woman's heart because it is a separate person.

So please, stop with the pseudo science nonsense. Your argument is political, not scientific. It merely reflects a personal preference but shows a callous indifference to the life of unborn children especially if they get in the way of or inconveniences a woman's life.



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Kathy

Immigrant children have heartbeats too.

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texasranger2

Then you saying the unborn should have the same right to life as immigrant children. Unfortunately, that's not the case because they are not considered human.

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Jane

Then you saying the unborn should have the same right to life as immigrant children. Unfortunately, that's not the case because they are not considered human.

I know the RWingers don't consider immigrant children to be human, but I never thought I would see someone actually say it.

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Ziemia(6a)

Most abortions, both intended and unintended, occur before the fetal stage of development. It has the potential for life. It's an amazing process.

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Ziemia(6a)

Didn't expect this:

The legalization of abortion [in the USA], which was completed in 1973, was the most important factor in the decline in neonatal mortality during the period from 1964 to 1977, according to a study by economists associated with the National Bureau of Economic Research.

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texasranger2

zeimia---there have been about 60 million pre Neo-natal fatalities since Roe v Wade.

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bleusblue2

Let's get back to the fate of those embryos. I simply don't see why an embryo in the lab is left to it's unborn fate and an embryo in a woman is a human. So are you fighting for the right of every embryo to be born?

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Chi

I wonder if the pro-lifers will all adopt and give birth to the extra IVF embryos.

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Chi

A baby does not have full rights until he or she can live outside of the womb. Until then, the embryo depends on the mother, and does not have more rights than the mother. Outlawing abortion is giving the embryo higher priority than the living, breathing human, and that is not right.

Priority is always given to the mother, both legally and medically (unless specified otherwise).

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texasranger2

Tell that to the person responsible for counting body parts or those who assist and watch the ultra sounds of babies about to be aborted as they struggle in the womb trying to escape or the doctor who tears up the unborn child or the baby killed by chemicals. Its understandable you want your audience to focus embryos but thats not the reality. The reality is depressingly gruesome, painful and bloody. Women are often traumatized and many are coerced.

Choice between two lives is only excusable in the rare event that the mother's life is endangered. That doesn't represent the true reality of todays abortion picture either. Usually the mother just wants to get "rid of it" and often its for selfish reasons.

The truth is you can't morally defend abortion so you use absurd tactics such as trying to get people to focus on embryo's rather than babies and come up with absurdities like frozen embryos as if this is a joke. Anything to divert attention from what you don't want people thinking about or visualizing. That makes you appear dishonest and selfish. At least be honest about what you are demanding and what we are really talking about.

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elvis

HU9999

Everyone knows abortion means ending a life.

Wrong again. Just because you keep repeating it does not make it true.

You just wrote that abortion does not mean ending a life.

What do you think abortion means?

The dictionary definition is "the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy".

Pregnancy, also known as gestation, is the time during which one or more offspring develops inside a woman.

Gestation is the process of carrying or being carried in the womb between conception and birth.

In biology, offspring are the young born of living organisms.

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Chi

"The truth is you can't morally defend abortion"

Sure you can. It's morally wrong for the government to force women to have babies they don't want. It's especially morally wrong to force rape victims to give birth.

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elvis

It's morally wrong for the government to force women to have babies they don't want.

It's definitely wrong for the government to impregnate women and then force them to have babies they don't want. Isn't there some TV show about that?

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palisades_

the fetus cannot scream nor can it feel pain until the 3rd trimester
(which begins at about 27 weeks, according to the American College of
Obstetricians and Physicians).

So suddenly at about 27 weeks, nerve cells appear suddenly so pain can be felt? Talk about propaganda and fake sciences from the pro-abortionists.

Within 2 weeks of conception, brain and spinal cord begin to form, and neurons grow quickly along with myocytes as the baby grows. Anyone with half a brain can realize such central nervous system can sense stimuli, such as pain in early stage of pregnancy.

First you have to dehumanize it. Then you can kill it.

Indeed.


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elvis

Indeed. Can you imagine having an honest conversation about this? Now that would be humanizing.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Stimuli must be interpreted in order to "feel". There has to be connections for the stimuli to get to where it will be interpreted when the systems are mature enough to even transmit to that point.

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palisades_

The brain neurons are established at 6 weeks, and can interpret pain. Nerve cells branch out from the central nervous system so they are already connected as they continue to grow.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Let's get back to the fate of those embryos. I simply don't see why an embryo in the lab is left to it's unborn fate and an embryo in a woman is a human. So are you fighting for the right of every embryo to be born? "

I've always been curious about this too and it looks like none of the anti-abortion folks are answering it.

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