Dow takes 700-point nosedive as trade war escalates

Mattie

Dow takes 700-point nosedive as trade war escalates

Wall Street recoiled as the U.S.-China trade war threatened the global economy.

While many business executives and investors had hoped that tensions between the United States and China would be resolved easily, the recent developments show how much each country is digging in for a long fight.

“I love the position we’re in,” Trump said at the White House. “I think it’s working out really well.”

Amid signs that investors were questioning his adversarial approach, Trump attempted to assuage the public in a series of Twitter posts. But some of his tweets contained typos and misspellings, suggesting that his comments had not been thoroughly vetted by White House officials and might not represent fully planned-out policy initiatives.


Trump’s trade tactics under fire as China retaliates on tariffs

As Beijing announced steep tariffs on $60 billion in U.S. goods, President Trump’s efforts to calm investors showed signs of cracking.

U.S. markets plunged Monday as China said it would raise steep tariffs on $60 billion in U.S. goods, upping the stakes of a trade war that threatens to imperil the global economy.

The Dow Jones industrial average was down more than 700 points, or nearly 3 percent, in afternoon trading as investors feared that a trade standoff with China would escalate into a full-blown economic crisis — tipping the U.S. and world economies into recession. Dragging the Dow were Apple, Caterpillar and Boeing, with drops of 5.78 percent, 5.11 percent and 4.65 percent respectively. The blue-chip index was headed for its lowest close since January.

The Standard & Poor’s 500-stock index was down 2.5 percent and the tech-heavy Nasdaq Composite was off 3.5 percent, its worst day of the year and continuing the losses from last week. Ten out of 11 market sectors were in negative territory around noon. Utilities was the only bright spot.

Both S&P 500 and Nasdaq were on track for their worst day of the year. The S&P on Monday was treading just above a key threshold of 2,800.

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foodonastump

Enough for Ann to jump in?

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Stan Areted

Meh.

You lose money on paper, you gain money on paper, worry about it the day you need to sell it.

This is part of the process, and I'm behind President Trump doing what he believes is the right thing to make trade with China better for us all--in the long term.

Companies and financial analysits live by the moment, and the media feeds that frenzy.

People should take a chill pill.

Great going, what a brave and proactive President.

FOR A CHANGE.

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Annie Deighnaugh

There's a reason the paper goes down...in anticipation that the economy will go down as people suffer under the 'tariff tax' which cuts spending, raises prices and then the fed has to respond with higher interest rates, tanking housing and so on.


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Stan Areted

The sky is falling the sky is falling.

The skies are bright blue compared to Obama's dull new normal.

Some of us are enjoying it!

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Ziemia(6a)

George Wallace had fans, too.

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Stan Areted

So did Ted Bundy.

Neither have anything to do with a president's policies with China.

Really?



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Carro

and it's still well above Obama levels.

No need to get twitchy. Sit tight and watch Trump do what Obama should have done years ago.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Sit tight and watch Trump do what Obama should have done years ago. "

Piss off the world?

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Carro

Piss off the world?

Let the world screw us over because Obama was too weak to stand up for us,

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Carro

Obama expanded Bush 43's economic recovery plan. It was working before he ever took office.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Let the world screw us over because Obama was too weak to stand up for us "

Yes, the 'America first, America alone' strategy. What a fine one it is. Luckily most of our allies are just trying to wait out these 4 years until we get a real leader again.

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Delilah66

“You lose money on paper, you gain money on paper, worry about it the day you need to sell it.”

Do it to yourself, but not on purpose to your nation as “sport”.

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chase_gw

Trump says that American companies and consumers won't pay the tarrifs, China will pay.

Is he stupid or lying to the American people ? It's one or the other.

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bob_cville

“I love the position we’re in,” Trump said at the White House. “I think it’s working out really well.”

This really makes me think that Trump knew that this announcement would tank stocks and carefully positioned himself through shorting or derivatives or the like so that he personally would profit from the market plummet caused by his actions.

says Trump: All's well if it end's well for me.

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Stan Areted


sunflower_petal(5a)

" Let the world screw us over because Obama was too weak to stand up for us "

Yes, the 'America first, America alone' strategy. What a fine one it is. Luckily most of our allies are just trying to wait out these 4 years until we get a real leader again.

EXACTLY what are they waiting for?

Someone to tell them what to do and go back to paying their way again, saving their countries?

Why should we conduct our policy based on what socialist, impotent countries think about us?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" EXACTLY what are they waiting for? "


They are waiting for a leader who understands that this global economy is more connected than ever and thrives more on cooperation than it does on conflict.

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Mattie

Better do your Christmas shopping now.

Trump is threatening to impose tariffs on EVERY product coming from China

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Carro

The stock market doesn't back anyone.

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chase_gw

"The stock market doesn't back anyone"


Good to have you admit that Trump does not drive the stock market.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

“I love the position we’re in,” Trump said at the White House. “I think it’s working out really well.”

Bwhahahahaha, that trump, he's such a ....

I hope it works out but I don't see Xi folding so easily, or at all.

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catticusmockingbird



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chase_gw

Taxes imposed on Americans by Executive Order........can you imagine.

Just watch Trump claim glory for reducing the national debt by taxing American consumers and companies to make up for the increase in national debt by lowering taxes on American consumers and companies............we aren't in Kansas anymore...

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numbersjunkie


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mrskjun(9)

Wow, where did the buy American products people go? Ok, don't want to buy American, by from India. You have choices. But how many of you would prefer to see China continue stealing our intellectual property and technologies?

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chase_gw

First you have to have the American products available before you can buy them....then they have to be competitive price wise.

Why doesn't Trump by his MAGA hats from an American manufacturer?

All that aside, what about American companies that want access to the Chinese markets.....like your farmers? Just sell your soya beans elsewhere and quit whining.

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heri _ cles

You lose money on paper, you gain money on paper, worry about it the day you need to sell it.

This widens the economic divide between the haves and the have-nots To some this is a mere inconvenience. To others an economic downturn can cost them their jobs, their homes, their life insurance/health. and can be devastating and life altering.

Yea just a question when you have to sell some stock, yuk yuk yuk,.,


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heri _ cles

Trump started a trade war and maybe he will start a real war now as he positions B-52's and a carrier strike force to intimidate Iran...and maybe their allies, including Russia.

How about we start Impeachment Hearings before this guy gets a lot of people killed ?

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Prim Rose

trump's tax break for the wealthy and the corresponding increase in the national debt combined now with chaos with China.


The debt isn't going to go down and trump won't win this war. Grown-ups need to get involved.

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maifleur01

Those who are over 70 1/2 have no option on selling if their retirement accounts are handled so that they earn more than the average yearly cost of living. To do that most have some of their pension, either handled directly by themselves, through a management company directed by an current or previous employer, or an employer pass through to a management company. It does not manner what type of spread in retirement funds you have unless it is only government securities all are interconnected to the stock market. If companies and people have less equity there will be less spending.

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judeNY_gw

Obama expanded Bush 43's economic recovery plan. It was working before he ever took office.

Another fine demonstration of profound ignorance. Or maybe the poster was not yet "born" in 2008.

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maddie260

It’s just ignorance to say “buy American” for many of the products or parts imported from China. Google re the tariffs on washing machines imported from China. American manufacturers raised their prices too! Americans got screwed! And, not only did washing machine prices rise, so did dryers. What a deal maker- hahaha!

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Ziemia(6a)

What leadership position was Ted Bundy elected to?

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catkinZ8a

The Free Market will reign!

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numbersjunkie
What a great economy! So much winning!



Nearly 80 people are set to lose their jobs at a manufacturing plant in Amherst.

According to the New York State Department of Labor, Amherst Precision Industries, Inc. is set to close in October.

The company makes transmission products from it's site on Hazel Wood Drive. The plant is closing due to economic conditions, according to officials.

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/news/2019/05/12/amherst-manufacturing-plant-closing-this-fall?cid=share_clip
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Prim Rose

Free Market?? No such thing. No economy is pure anything.

And we don't have people reigning over us, much less institutions.

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catkinZ8a

If the consumer doesn't like the high price of an item, they'll buy a cheaper one.

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Sofia

If the consumer doesn't like the high price of an item, they'll buy a cheaper one.

Which will be shipped from China to the US, and sold in Walmart

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

In the real world, many people have superannuation. Every month my super. provider sends me some moular. To get the money to pay me every month they have to cash some assets. Maybe US Shares, maybe somewhere else.

Then there is the Little Aussie Battler company listed in Australia. Headquarters in the USA. Share valued Halved by one Donald Trump, economic Genius not.

We had some great years prior to Mr Trump arriving on the scene with his 1950's policies and Diplomatic action via tweets.

USA First and Foremost may not be good policy.


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Ann

FOAS, yes it is. 7% with last Tuesday's drop and another 7% with today's drop. So, I am working my way in but with enough caution that, if we really crash, I will be ready for a bigger move in. So far, I'm in with 33% of the amount I plan to invest. That's enough to make me feel good if it goes up and good if it goes down and provides additional buying opportunities.

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Ann

This thread and the criticism of Trump for finally tackling trade inequities with China is kind of funny in that many on both sides of the aisle are very supportive of his efforts. As much as some of you might want to make this a big partisan narrative, it's falling flat. This will be great for America and a huge win for our president. Watch and then enjoy the improved trade situation outcome we'll have.

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JanieJ

We’ll see how flat it falls.

Even Republican lawmakers and economic advisers are criticizing Trump.

This isn’t actual trade policy, this is just another Trump tantrum.

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Ann

It looks like stock futures are pointing to a somewhat positive opening tomorrow. We'll see if that holds or if the market heads down again tomorrow.

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catkinZ8a

Republican lawmakers criticizing Trump? You don't say!

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maddie260

As someone said, I just do NOT want to bail out farmers UNLESS everyone is bailed out. They voted for this guy; let them deal with the "rewards" of this guy: NO welfare queens. Let them pull themselves up by their bootstraps or move to where economic opportunity is better. Isn't that what is always preached to those on welfare?

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elvis

Carro

and it's still well above Obama levels.

No need to get twitchy. Sit tight and watch Trump do what Obama should have done years ago.

True, but to be fair, Trump himself said this began long before BO took the office. No one has done anything about China since Clinton advocated for China back when he wanted China in the WTO.

There will be short term pain. Nothing is free.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

Just to add to what I posted above....

Stan wrote "You lose money on paper, you gain money on paper, worry about it the day you need to sell it."

Yes Stan, that is true if you are lucky enough to have a share portfolio that you are not relying on to provide day to day living expenses.

I do not manage my own superannuation, but some do in Australia. Madness in my opinion. Do not know anything about super in the USA , but perhaps it is the same. "I'll manage my own superannuation and avoid paying fees."

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Annie Deighnaugh

Wall St gave trump an inital bump, probably related to enhanced profitability from the tax cut, but has been making no headway since.


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Kathy

I would like to know who or if anyone in the administration went short before Trumps announcement.

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Sofia

I would like to know who or if anyone in the administration went short before Trumps announcement.

Well, that's an interesting question, and one worth asking

Trump diddles and dawdles with his decisions.

Not because he can't make a decision or knows what he's doing - which is a given.

But it gives his fans time to move their investments around?

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Stan Areted

There has to be an adult in the room that sees past the "it hurts I don't want to do it leave it like it is" mentality, and of course the political pressures to keep President Trump from succeeding.

President Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do in attempting to address the trade situation with China--another reason I voted for him.

By the way, during the witch hunt and destruction of Justice Kavanaugh and his family, the right was accused of wanting Kavanaugh on the Court so that he would vote along conservative lines. I contended that that was exactly what I and many other conservatives specifically did NOT want--we wanted a pure jurist that would apply the facts to the constitution and make a decision--which exactly what we got.

Yesterday's ruling showed Kavanaugh going again with his "always bet on the left fellow jurists." While I haven't studied the decision I realize the implications and will have to think about it. Basically, Justice Kavanaugh seems to lean to pragmatism when Justice Gorsuch leans to a more strict interpretation of the Constitution. Both are well within the bounds of reasonable judicial review, so I'm okay with that.

The point is, regardless of how a justice votes, if they are fair in their interpretation of the facts, the application of the Constitution, and their reasoning makes sense--even if the outcome is not what I might want to happen--they are a good justice.

See what happens when adults are in the room and adults calmly and unemotionally support what is right for this country?

See who's really fair and not afraid of not getting their way because our Constitution is more important?

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Stan Areted


"Yes Stan, that is true if you are lucky enough to have a share portfolio that you are not relying on to provide day to day living expenses."

By the way, arthurm2015, most everyone that invests has plans for the income, as do I expect regular income from my investments. While some consider it play money at the race track, I do not. A well diversified portfolio and living beneath one's means so that they are able to live within a range of return from the stock market will compensate for all but the most drastic of fluctuations of the market.

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Annie Deighnaugh

If the Constitution were so important, then aren't you concerned with the violation of the emoluments clause? Defiance of the Article 1 powers by refusing to obey subpoenas? How comfortable will you be if/when the courts find the wh must obey the subpoenas and then defies the court order? Don't the moves that trump has made and continues to make toward an imperial presidency bother you?

You support trump imposing tariffs willy nilly on products like aluminum and steel and dealing single handedly with China, but does Article 1 sec 8 come to mind? Has congress abdicated their powers or did trump usurp them?

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises....To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations....

-------------

As far as: ...adults are in the room and adults calmly and unemotionally...you can't be referring to our toddler in chief!

About Carly Fiorina: “Look at that face. Would anyone vote for that? Can you imagine that, the face of our next president?"

When New York Times columnist Gail Collins wrote a story about Trump’s bankruptcies, he sent her a copy of her article with her picture circled and the words “the face of a dog” written across it.

Look at those hands. Are they small hands? And he referred to my hands – if they’re small something else must be small. I guarantee there’s no problem. I guarantee it.

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elvis

Arthur wrote: ...

Yes Stan, that is true if you are lucky enough to have a share portfolio that you are not relying on to provide day to day living expenses.

I do not manage my own superannuation, but some do in Australia. Madness in my opinion. Do not know anything about super in the USA , but perhaps it is the same. "I'll manage my own superannuation and avoid paying fees."

"Madness" is right, Arthur. Some people like to play the slot machines, too. To gamble, with the income one relies upon to survive, is madness.

As jodik would say, it's greed.

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haydayhayday

"I do not manage my own superannuation, but some do in Australia. Madness in my opinion. Do not know anything about super in the USA , but perhaps it is the same. "I'll manage my own superannuation and avoid paying fees."

I'm mad?

Who you going to trust?

Someone wanting to make money off you?

I'm mad?

Do you happen to know how much of a fee you are paying? Most people have no clue.

Pay me a fee and I'll hold your hand.

The average fee is way above 1%. Way above. But, for now, we'll use that. (That's the "fee" you can see. Trust me, they're getting way more than that.)

https://www.google.com/search?q=average+fees+for+managing+retirement+accounts&oq=average+fees+for+managing+retirement+accounts&aqs=chrome..69i57.19610j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I'm mad?

Who you going to trust?

Get out your trusty calculator. The stock market historically returns about 7% per year. Invest $1000 when you're 20 and when you're 70, you could have

1000x(1.07)^50=$29,000 .Pay a fee of 1% per year and you've got 1000x(1.06)^50=$18,000.

18,000/29,000=62%.

I love compounding. You should, too.

I'm mad?

Hay

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numbersjunkie

Trump's long trade war


Senior administration officials tell Axios that a trade deal with China isn't close and that the U.S. could be in for a long trade war.

The state of play: A senior administration official said the differences between the two sides are so profound that, based on his read of the situation, he can't see the fight getting resolved before the end of the year.

  • Trump yesterday held out the possibility of meeting Chinese President Xi Jinping at the G20 in Japan next month. That statement may have been made in part to calm the stock market, which yesterday had its worst day since January. (Lead Financial Times headline: Global markets reel.")

The bottom line: White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow was right when he said on Sunday that "both sides will suffer" in a U.S.-China trade war.

  • The Chinese economy will be harmed. But so, too, will America's. And so will American consumers, who will pay higher prices, and American farmers, who will be targeted for retaliation by China.
  • The question remains: Can Trump, facing a re-election race in 2020, outlast China's "president for life"?
  • Both Trump and Xi have to contend with hardliners in their parties. But only one of them can harness all the tools of authoritarianism.

Trump’s mindset on the Chinese is simple: They only respond to shows of brute force.

  • And he thinks they’ll suffer more than America will, because they buy fewer products.

I've asked several current and former administration officials whether Trump actually believes that China pays the tariffs — rather than the reality that U.S. importers and consumers do.

  • The consensus is "yes": That's what he actually believes.
  • And as one former aide said: There’s little point trying to persuade Trump otherwise, because his belief in tariffs is "like theology."

https://www.axios.com/donald-trump-us-china-trade-war-tariffs-deal-e154abe0-a00e-4c2f-8caa-1e9a6f370238.html


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haydayhayday

Most of you are, down deep, desperately hoping that the market will crash.

Bad luck to you!

Meanwhile, just to keep things in perspective, the stock market this year is up about 14%.

Who you going to trust?

Hay

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maddie260

And, if anyone thinks prices on any of these items is going down after this tariff war, think again! Hahahaha! What an unstable idiot.

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Annie Deighnaugh

No one wins a trade war...and we won't either.

Instead we have an idiot in the wh who thinks that *china* pays for our tariffs! His tariffs have already taxed away whatever benefits the average family got from his tax cuts.

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haydayhayday

You all got lucky. I never had these kind of funds when I got started.

Who you going to trust?

If you really need someone to guide you, take a look at any thing Jack Bogle has to say:

https://www.google.com/search?q=jack+bogle&oq=jack+bogle&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.5107j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If it makes sense to you, go check out the funds his firm created just for you.

Buy it and never look at it again.

https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/ekit/pmed/trf/index.html?ajdejc&abqu&&

An excellent example:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/VFORX

Check out the fees.

Hay

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Up 14% this year? Smelling like irrational exuberance, again?

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haydayhayday

"Smelling like irrational exuberance, again? "

Do you happen to know how that turned out?

Who you going to trust?


Hay

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Big up- big down - big up- big down -big up- big down - big up - here we are.

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haydayhayday

Annie:

"Instead we have an idiot in the wh who thinks that *china* pays for our tariffs! "

It really isn't quite that simple. Really.

The same sort of thinking:

Houses get sold and it's always the line that "the seller" pays the broker fees.

Really?

Life is almost never as simple as you might think.

You're not the first and certainly not the last.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Who sends "sales tax" to the government, Me or Walmart? Who pays it?

Life is never as simple as you think.

Hay

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Sofia

catkinZ8a: Republican lawmakers criticizing Trump? You don't say!

GOP senators raise alarms, criticize Trump as U.S.-China trade war heats up

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" This thread and the criticism of Trump for finally tackling trade inequities "

Doing something the wrong way doesn't make it right that you're doing something.

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Ann

Sunflower, what, in your opinion, is the right way?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Diplomacy. Not bullying with hateful words and slapping tariffs. American businesses may have lost business for years to come as a result of this ham-handed approach. Are you listening to what business owners are saying about how this has affected them, Ann?

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Tilly Teabag

IF manufacturing resurges in the West due to tariffs, it will most likely employ increasing robot labor. Western wages and conditions for human workers cannot compete with developing countries.

So it’s a pay cut, or unemployment.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

This thread was sailing along with left and right views and then it was the target of a well known carpet bomber.

The USA Population is probably much like the Australian Population. Many would never buy shares because they are risk adverse.

Well, I have Superannuation Funds, Managed by experts. sure I could try and manage it myself, but I want to enjoy my retirement. Retired 23 years and the Capital is largely intact.

I also have a share portfolio which has done better than storing money in jam jars or putting it in term deposits.

50 years of fiddling around, with disasters every so often. Latest disaster is a tribal guy who thinks USA, USA, without realising that the USA is the centre of global finance and is a "great trading nation". This guy terminated a phone conversation with the Australian PM by hanging up. Great trading nations should try to keep the customers happy.

Aussie market is up a bit today. Closed half an hour ago.

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haydayhayday

arthurm:

" This thread was sailing along with left and right views and then it was the target of a well known carpet bomber."

Some days you get lucky.

arthurm:

" The USA Population is probably much like the Australian Population. Many would never buy shares because they are risk adverse."

Might it be more risky to NOT buy stock?

arthurm:

" Well, I have Superannuation Funds, Managed by experts. sure I could try and manage it myself, but I want to enjoy my retirement. Retired 23 years and the Capital is largely intact."

I showed you perhaps THE best expert in the world with regard to EXACTLY what you say you want!

Hay:

"If it makes sense to you, go check out the funds his firm created just for you.

Buy it and never look at it again.

https://retirementplans.vanguard.com/ekit/pmed/trf/index.html?ajdejc&abqu&&

An excellent example:

https://investor.vanguard.com/mutual-funds/profile/VFORX

Check out the fees."

Some days you get lucky.

Hay

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Ann

Hay, as someone who recently moved 401ks from our previous employers to IRAs at Fidelity, I've been looking closely at those fees you mention as I select an investment mix to never mess with for the future. They have 2 or 3 relatively new no fee funds, but not a nice balanced option yet (but I can get that nice low .14 with some of those). But, I love the idea of no fee, so for a little portion of money where I want more risk, FZROX is a choice I couldn't resist for 0 fees.

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palisades_

.14 is quite low. Mine are much higher around .7, but the 10 year average annual return is appx 20 so I don’t mind to leave them there for awhile. Still like to have a hands on approach in managing them myself.

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chase_gw

We have a financial advisor who we look to for recommendations on buys and sells. We pay her on a transnational basis so if we do nothing, we pay nothing. We only own stocks and bonds...no funds at all. I'm not interested in paying those fees.

She has done very well by us, very well......much better than we did when we were doing it by ourselves plus we don't have the headache.

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