The slaughter of Christians

Fuhgetabauti

Let's get this right. This was not at an attack on Easter Mass. It was not an attack on "churches and hotels". It was not an attack on "Easter worshipers and "travelers".


It was an attack on Christians. It was the slaughter of Christians.









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texasranger2

Chi.

Liberal Christians?

Do you mean comfortable, American, watered down Christianity where people cut out any Christian teaching they don't like because really following Christianity is too demanding? Do you mean the people who replace Christian doctrine with what is politically correct and which lines up with the ideology of the secular culture, usually to validate personal vices?

You can call that Christianity but the fact is, it has no resemblance to Christianity. The same thing applies the Prosperity Gospel form of 'christianity'. Most of them do not even attend church regularly, they are 'name only christians'. I would say the same thing about the mega churches whose worship services resemble entertainment or rock concerts with big sound systems and star performers pretending they are preachers.

Please don't insult real martyrs with comparisons like that.

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Chi

"Liberal Christians?"

Yes, liberal Christians. I'm not sure why you think you get to decide if a Christian is real or not (isn't that God's job?), but there are many, many liberal Christians. Including many on HT.

What I think is funny is people who call themselves real Christians yet call people names and viciously attack them on this forum for having different opinions. Somehow I don't think Christ would approve.

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texasranger2

"What I think is funny is people who call themselves real Christians yet call people names.......Somehow I don't think Christ would approve"

I don't recall calling an individual a name or saying any individual is not a Christian. Your term "liberal Christians" was a general term which describes an ideological teaching.

Do you really think Christ would not approve of calling out false teachings and hypocrisy for what they are? Christ desires that all men to be saved "on the narrow path". Out of love I would want to try to rescue someone innocently caught up in a false form of Christianity spouting false, unbiblical teachings such as are publicly expressed in what goes by the name of 'liberal christianity'.

Anyone who has read the Bible knows Christ called certain people names. I believe he would certainly approve of calling a lot of the nonsense that passes for 'christianity', especially in America, an appropriate name.

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither suffer them that are entering to go in."

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like white washed tombs outwardly appear beautify, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness".

"Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across the sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves."
Matthew 23

"By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil' whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God. 1 John


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tony jelly

It is not fair to blame Obama and Hilary for the anti-Christian feelings in the Middle East and to give Israel a free pass, you must also remember that ISIS was formed in Iraq where GW Bush led his Crusade because his Christian god told him too, In India Hindu's are not keen on the god the British tried to force on them and Assad is in no way a savior of Christians in yet another or us or against us situation.

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Chi

"I believe he would certainly approve of calling a lot of the nonsense that passes for 'christianity', especially in America, an appropriate name."

I disagree. The Christ I believe in is warm and kind and accepts and redeems flawed humans. They may not go to church every Sunday or read the Bible every day, and they may support homosexuals and letting people make their own decisions about their bodies. But they believe in Christ and try to live their lives the best and loving way they can.

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heri _ cles

Why did God let this happen ?

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texasranger2

tony jelly---- If you go back you will notice I mentioned Saddam Hussein & Iraq and I also mentioned some things about false doctrine and absurdity in what passes for Christianity in America aka George W. Bush. There is only so much a person can say on a forum like this.

The Christian Syrians at my church along with their families still living in Syria would not agree with you and they wouldn't use the word savior to describe Assad (that's your word, not theirs).

But....what do they know and why listen to them? I'm sure the average well fed American watching the news on TV would know much better than them.

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bob_cville

> Do you mean comfortable, American, watered down Christianity where people cut out any Christian teaching they don't like because really following Christianity is too demanding? Do you mean the people who replace Christian doctrine with what is politically correct and which lines up with the ideology of the secular culture, usually to validate personal vices?

You can call that Christianity but the fact is, it has no resemblance to Christianity. The same thing applies the Prosperity Gospel form of 'christianity'. Most of them do not even attend church regularly, they are 'name only christians'. I would say the same thing about the mega churches whose worship services resemble entertainment or rock concerts with big sound systems and star performers pretending they are preachers.

Please don't insult real martyrs with comparisons like that.

Wow. For a religion that purportedly started of from statements like "Love your neighbor as yourself" to where someone who appears to consider themselves that absolute apex of "true Christianity" makes a statement such as the above, so full of self-pride and self-importance and dripping with disdain, scorn or even hatred for those who they consider "lesser Christians". Just ... wow.

>You can call that Christianity but the fact is, it has no resemblance to Christianity

Right back at ya.


Some of those attending the Easter Mass were likely "Christmas and Easter only Christians" and some of those may be among those killed or injured. If so, they are just as dead as any "better Christians" sitting nearby who were also killed. Your post makes it seem like they deserve a "Meh" or even a "good riddance"

I've recently been re-reading "The Handmaid's Tale". Based on the above it seems you'd consider the horrific world depicted therein would be not-so-bad, or perhaps even something to strive for.

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texasranger2

Chi. Thats fine but I won't go there. I have no desire to pursue a general topic with someone attempting to bring it down to personal details as if they feel a need to prove their personal salvation by using it as their defense in a discussion. Some things really are best kept private rather than airing them publicly.

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bob_cville

> Do you really think Christ would not approve of calling out false teachings and hypocrisy for what they are? Christ desires that all men to be saved "on the narrow path". Out of love I would want to try to rescue someone innocently caught up in a false form of Christianity spouting false, unbiblical teachings such as are publicly expressed in what goes by the name of 'liberal christianity'.


Yeah, that really sounds like the mindset underlying the fictional "Republic of Gilead"

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texasranger2

Oh great. Now we are getting another ominous warning of The Handmaid's Tale. Obviously another abortion supporting liberal using scare tactics.

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Chi

"Chi. Thats fine but I won't go there. I have no desire to pursue a general topic with someone attempting to bring it down to personal details as if they feel a need to prove their personal salvation by using it as their defense in a discussion. Some things really are best kept private rather than airing them publicly."

That's about what I expected. You are the one who made it personal by implying liberals can't be real Christians. That's very offensive.

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texasranger2

No. You chose to make it personal by taking offense to a general statement which was not about you personally. Don't blame me for your reaction.

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Chi

Oh don't worry, I don't blame you for my reaction. I am thankful for the opportunity to reflect on how blessed my version of Christianity is. I'm glad I get to love everyone. It must be exhausting for real Christians to have to judge so many people.

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Ziemia(6a)

Not name calling but language just as demeaning;

"Do you mean comfortable, American, watered down Christianity ... "

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JodiK

Gawd, I just love the smell of sanctimony in the morning! It's postings like some of those above, clearly denigrating others belief systems that make me thankful of my own; atheism.

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texasranger2

Chi.

Is this what you mean by "your" version of Christianity?

Does anyone see anything inaccurate with this cartoon? There are people who know this is no joke. Its a realistic picture of what passes for Christianity-- liberal or otherwise-- in America. Hundreds of competing versions of Christianity (aka Protestantism) which all falsely claim to be the true 'version' or worse, that each is a version of the same thing no matter how extreme the differences.

How dare anyone question or suggest any one of them just might be wrong. How judgmental.


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cattyles

Or maybe yours is wrong.

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Tilly Teabag

Miss lindsey

”animosity between the Catholic religion and Islam has been going on for many centuries. Taken in the context of the past thousand years or so”

except that is not true , I’m RC and ever since I can remember (and I’m in my 50s,) the Popes have had friendly relations with the Islamic leaders, even to visiting their countries, preaching peace etc. Never have I heard a word against Islam preached in a Catholic church. (Nor for that matter against other religions.)

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"Does anyone see anything inaccurate with this cartoon?



Does anyone see anything inaccurate with this cartoon? "

Garbage in, garbage out?

"GIGO is a computer science acronym that implies bad input will result in bad output. Because computers operate using strict logic, invalid input may produce unrecognizable output, or "garbage.""

Hay

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Chi

"How dare anyone question or suggest any one of them just might be wrong. How judgmental."

Well, you did.

"Liberal Christians? Do you mean comfortable, American, watered down Christianity...You can call that Christianity but the fact is, it has no resemblance to Christianity"

So why is that any different than me saying my version? I never said your version, or anyone else's version, was wrong. I said that I'm happy with my version.

The fact is that none of us really know. There is no absolute proof one way or another. That's why it's called faith and it's up to each person to decide what they believe.

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margaux

I think she's saying your version has been bastardized over time while her version is pure. I wonder how she read the original texts to get to her version as anyone who has touched them since has bastardized them as well.

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Chi

I think you're right, margaux. I still prefer my version, though. I don't believe there's a right and wrong version of Christianity, and I believe we all end up in the same place anyway with the exception of maybe some truly evil people.

I don't believe it's our job to decide who is right or wrong.

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cait1

You're welcome, Sable. And yes, teary-eyed while reading. So very sad.

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haydayhayday

Do keep in mind that ALL critters have "morality". They're born with it just as you are born with it. The nature of Science is to constantly show the religious that they're not really special after all.

No, the Sun does not revolve around YOU!

https://www.google.com/search?q=de+waal+morality+in+animals&oq=de+waal+morality+in+animals&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.13756j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Hay

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katrina_ellen

Liberal Christians = Idol Worshippers. They don't accept God for who He says He is and who He shows us He is in His Word. They have "better" ideas than God.

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Chi

God's word...which has been interpreted by man and passed down for thousands of years and with different versions and translations. It's not exactly direct from the source.

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Ziemia(6a)

And right from the beginning some of the texts were hidden.

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katrina_ellen

Chi there is very little difference in the different accepted translations - this is well known. And the core of the Christian faith is very clear. The Word is very clear on so much, to constantly harp on this is either intentionally misleading, or ignorant - in which I mean you haven't studied it. God states in the Bible He will preserve His Word until Jesus returns - don't you think He is a big enough God to do that? Again, its what you choose to accept/not accept from the Bible instead of accepting it as the inerrant Word that determines whether you are worshipping God or an idol of your own making.

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Annette Holbrook(z7a)

Wait, there are hotels just for Christians?

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haydayhayday

People never use the phrase, "begs the question", in its original intent. It's a type of logical fallacy.

Read all about it here:

https://www.google.com/search?q=logical+meaning+of+%22begging+the+question%22&oq=logical+meaning+of+%22begging+the+question%22&aqs=chrome..69i57.16771j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Here's a pretty good example of it:

Katrina:

"They don't accept God for who He says He is and who He shows us He is in His Word. They have "better" ideas than God. "

Hay

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Ziemia(6a)

"His Word" - that's the Bible, right? Old T or New T or both?

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haydayhayday

"I believe there's one God and his word, the Bible, is to be accepted."


And how do you know that?


"It says so in the Bible, God's word"


And that's why you should never hope to have a rational discussion with a "believer".


Hay




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texasranger2

Chi

"how dare anyone question whether any of them just might be wrong. How judgmental".

I regretted not adding. "How unChristian!" "How unloving!"

I was being intentionally and deliberately sarcastic about being called judgmental for daring to criticize watered down liberal 'christianity'. Anyone who knows the insanity of the Christian situation in America and what is being passed off as 'Christianity' in some churches in America knows that picture is correct.

That being the case, it is ridiculous for you to get your feathers ruffled and personally insulted when someone says liberal christianity is watered down Christianity. Liberalized 'christianity' has strayed so far from Biblical teaching and tradition it is no longer recognizable as Christianity. If you don't know this you should wake up and smell the coffee because I'm far from being the only person who says this.

Its a common topic of conversation among non-liberalized people who haven't fallen into the swamp of moral relativism where people say all "versions" are true or worse, that Islam is just as valid as Christianity which we hear from secular liberals all the time on HT and which has been said from some liberal pulpits by those wearing vestments. Its sad when you consider the number of Christians being martyred for their faith today because they won't convert to Islam at the point of a sword.

Many people are scandalized by what liberals now teach in their 'churches' and wonder if there is such a thing as an immorality they won't condone and justify or a Biblical distortion they won't teach.

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texasranger2

Zeimia---you don't seem to know church history very well. Texts were not hidden. Most of the texts you refer to were the Gnostic texts and gospels. These were rejected due to their heretical ideas, not hidden. If they were hidden, they were hidden by the Gnostics who chose to separate themselves from the Church and bishops by their own choice. They were not kicked out. They left voluntarily and tried to start separate cults.

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Chi

"I was being intentionally and deliberately sarcastic about being called judgmental for daring to criticize watered down liberal 'christianity'."

It's the epitome of being judgemental by declaring someone's religious beliefs as fake, or watered down, or not real Christianity, or whatever you want to call it. If you think it's your holy duty or whatever, that's fine, but I literally cannot think of a better example of being judgemental.

"That being the case, it is ridiculous for you to get your feathers ruffled and personally insulted when someone says liberal christianity is watered down Christianity."

Ah, more judgement for being offended at the judgement, got it.

I wonder if it would bother all these "non-liberalized" Christians to know that I don't go to church or read the Bible yet still consider myself just as much a Christian as those who do!

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katrina_ellen

Chi, the Bible expressly states do not forsake gathering together as Christians, there is a reason for it. I have to wonder what it is you are believing since you don't read the Bible. That's like considering yourself a teacher without going thru the required training.

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tony jelly

Its sad when you consider the number of Christians being martyred for their faith today because they won't convert to Islam at the point of a sword.

The most Christians killed in recent time (since 2000) were in the Congo and Rwanda, thousands barbarically murdered by other Christians.

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katrina_ellen

Prove it tony jelly, anyone can accuse, that's what HT is full of.

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tony jelly

The killing in Rwanda was between Hutu and Tutsi, both ethnic groups are Christian.

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katrina_ellen

There was a whole lot of other things going on there, class warfare for one, and a very long history of conflict. But that's not what the Bible teaches, that has no bearing on the true teaching of Christianity. Muslims kill muslims, blacks kill blacks, whites kill whites, parents kill children. Its people that are the problem.

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tony jelly

I was putting some facts into Tr's statement katrina, and now you mention the Bible that has a fair amount of warfare in it. There is no way you can prove that Christians are being martyred for there faith in huge numbers today.

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bob_cville

I have carefully studied the picture posted above and have determined what is wrong with it.

  • The stick figure has circled the wrong portion of the branching tree.

The right one -- yours, of course -- is way over there and you doubtless would draw the diagram differently to show that your "one right interpretation" of "Christianity" started way, waaaaay back then and all those other lesser, watered-down, liberal "interpretations" of "Christianity" came later, formed by lazy, unbelieving, slackers, unwilling to "do the hard work" required to be a "true Christian"

What a load of judgemental, sanctimonious, self-congratulatory, hog swollop, especially given that your "one particular right interpretation" has likely only existed for a few dozen years, despite the conceit that since it based strictly on the "Bible" it can trace its lineage back to the very beginnings of Christianity.

Well the "Bible" is a book. It is words, written on pages. Every single word was written by a human, translated from language to language by other humans, passed along as oral tradition by still other earlier humans, and as far as the claim that "there is very little difference in the different accepted translations", that is also a claim made by still other humans. These are all facts. However much you may believe "The Bible" to be the absolute true recorded word of GOD, that has no bearing on the previous facts.

If the "Bible" states something that is unprovable and undisprovable and you choose to believe it, fine, whatever, that doesn't mean you are right, that may only show that you are credulous.

If the "Bible" states something that contradicts something it states elsewhere, and you choose to believe them both, or the "Bible" states something that contradicts an observable fact in the real world, and you choose "The Bible" over the real world, again fine, that's your option, it just reads as "slightly unhinged" to someone who isn't so emotionally invested in Every single Word of THe Bible, being the Absolute True WORD of GOD.
And for all of your seeming belief that yours is the "one true Christianity", your words here praising yourself for your "Hard Work" and denigrating others as lesser Christians, when measured against the Great Commandment "Love your Neighbor as Yourself" , really seems to paint a different picture.

As Inigo Montoya might say: " 'Christianity' you keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means."


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texasranger2

bob cville

Here is a better graph. The 'denomination' I converted to is that big straight thick one at the base of the graph except they don't think of it as a 'denomination' --rather it has always been simply called "The Church'. This was the norm until the Great Schism when East and West divided and then the later schisms of the Protestant Reformation which fractured the Western Church. We see that result in America today

That bottom line is the church who canonized the books which are included in the New Testament. The universally accepted interpretation of those books goes back to the period of the Ecumenical Councils. Before the books were canonized the early church introduced converts to the faith from what are now called the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. The Gospel of John served as a lengthy catechism for converts who were baptized on Lazarus Saturday. The deeper mysteries were only revealed to the newly baptized from the Mystagogic Gospel of John.

There is quite a bit more to the Christian faith than a simple "love thy neighbor" as so many people like to use on HT and which the second great commandment which "is very like the first commandment". People never seem to quote that first great commandment preceding it "love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind........ Maybe its inconvenient to quote that one?

Love' does not not translate into being "polite" or some emotional feeling a person might experience or some shallow idea of what some people think 'love' is. As individuals we are often tested by God out of His love through trials to learn patience and increase our faith and reliance on Christ and we are called to bear our crosses so I guess you could say sometimes God is not very nice either. My own priest has corrected me several times and a few times he was quite severe. Not loving? I never once thought that.

Anyway, I don't buy into that childish, shallow notion of "love" that some people appear to be describing when these discussions take place. Many make up their own rules of morality and then get angry when someone disagrees with their opinion. Then they start throwing "You're a hypocrite, you aren't showing love" accusations around in a very cheap way. Its best to ignore that kind of 'intimidation tactic'.


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AITG



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cattyles

AITG, you’re just being difficult. Surely, that is the only time the Bible was edited for the purposes of someone other than God.

Eta, sarcasm alert.

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JodiK

Ya'll are aware, are you not, that religious texts were written by mankind, right? And interpreted in any number of ways, again by mankind.


The arguments over the issue just make me SMH...


Everyone is free to believe as they choose... I just wonder sometimes if some listen to themselves when they talk about the subject of religion...

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katrina_ellen

AITG-don't know the point you are making, that is man's work, not Gods.

jodik, Who said you are not free to believe as you choose? You can believe anything you choose, that's your choice - nobody said that nor will I or TR claim you don't have a choice. That "argument", if you can call it that, is always the fallback.

"As Inigo Montoya might say: " 'Christianity' you keep using this word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

I think I do know what it means - Christian means "Christ Ones", its just as simple as that.

Romans 3:11 "There is no one who understands. There is no one who seeks after God

It is only God's work, not mans that draws us to him, man cannot do it of him/her self. This shows man how dependent he is on God.

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AITG

"AITG-don't know the point you are making, that is man's work, not Gods."

Unless there are no gods.

I see no evidence of gods.

None.

So from my point of view it's all man's work.

When you can prove the existence of higher powers you'll have my attention.

In the meantime I'll just believe that it's just people with their make believe stories of everlasting punishment trying to terrify you into obedience.


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olliesmom

AITG, do you not find it strange, that ALL these hundreds of years later, people still are believing in a man name Jesus? Not even reading the Bible, He had to have been and done some very, very special things during his time on earth for millions to believe in Him.

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AITG

"AITG, do you not find it strange..."

No.

I don't.

Believing that when you die, you're dead, is a tough pill for anyone to swallow.

Desperation drives us to believe nearly anything.

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katrina_ellen

AITG - I can understand where you are coming from, although I thought differently about why people believed in God I did not believe in God myself, I was an atheist. Unless I could sense it with my 5 senses or understand it with my finite mind I could not believe there was a God. That's why I quoted that Romans verse. We are helpless to know God without His presence.

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AITG

So because he isn't present, I am helpless to know him.

Seems you DO see where I'm coming from.

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catkinZ8a

Lazarus? Come forth!



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katrina_ellen

AITG God works in mysterious ways. I don't know why He drew me to Him, it wasn't because I was better than anyone or more deserving than anyone else. I was a sinner and undeserving. That's why its a mystery. I can't explain it here on HT, its not the place. If you are a searching type of person you know that people live their lives searching for happiness, contentment, meaning. And our solutions are living according to the lusts of the flesh, chasing after a lasting solution to our emptiness and restlessness, but it never is satisfied, and so we continue trying but never arrive. We will never be satisfied in this life outside of God, He is the missing piece, the one who created us knows us better than we know ourselves and He fills the empty hole with His spirit. If you mock God and scorn Him He will be far from you.

God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God.

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Chi

That is what is frustrating about some of these sanctimonious opinions of other people's religion. We are all trying our best, and to hear it's not good enough, or a watered down version, or not real, or that we are worshipping idols is disheartening and likely pushes people away from God if they start to believe that their best efforts aren't enough.

I would think Christians would want to be as encouraging and supportive of the faith as they can be. But this thread shows quite the opposite.

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AITG

A close friend of mine is a Baptist missionary that I've known since like the mid 80's. I remember day after day after day of back and forth with him like we are currently engaged in. After years of this, I told him about how I had had a visit from evangelists of the door to door nature. He suddenly looked at me with a grave expression and said "I feel so sorry for them".

Just sayin'.

We needn't do this. :)

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catkinZ8a



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katrina_ellen

"We are all trying our best, and to hear it's not good enough, or a watered down version, or not real, or that we are worshipping idols is disheartening and likely pushes people away from God if they start to believe that their best efforts aren't enough."

"Best efforts" tells me you are relying on yourself and not on God. We can never be good enough for God, we can never do enough good works to be worthy and to be made righteous to a Holy God. The only one who could make us righteous to a Holy God is Christ because he was without sin. He was man in the flesh but God in the Spirit. We can't do it and that's why we need God. The best thing you could do is read the Bible and go to a Bible teaching church. I don't know any other way to get to know God.

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texasranger2

Chi--- Anyone needing validation or approval for what they believe from other people doesn't really believe what they profess to believe because if they did, it wouldn't matter what anyone said.

I don't worry about other people disagreeing with me or care if they criticize the Orthodox Church because I have no doubts about it. If asked to denounce my faith or if I was being forced to say another 'version' was just as true I would not do that. This happens in Islamic countries but it should not happen in America.

I would also hope I would have the courage and strength of those who live in countries like China, Korea, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt etc where Christians have been put in the real position of hiding their faith, being financially crippled by the dhimma tax on non-Muslims, living in humiliating & miserable conditions, being allowed to do only the lowest jobs, being treated as a lesser people or martyred because they won't denounce their faith.

Compared to them, getting upset because somebody who you consider sanctimonious did not agree with you is very small and petty.

In America, Christians only face social and political pressures or loss of a job for not holding a politically correct view, at least that is still the case currently. Hopefully we still have the freedom to disagree and voice our opinions about religion---- unless its about Islam which would brand you as Islamophobic by those on the left.

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AITG

Aren't Yahweh and Allah supposed to be the same guy?

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Chi

And that's why I don't go to church. I don't need the judgement and people telling me I'm a fake Christian because I'm socially liberal. No thanks.

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katrina_ellen

AITG - that's ok, I write some of these things for the benefit of whoever is out there that it may benefit. You never know, people planted seeds in my life and I hope to do the same for others. It may be someone who is just lurking.

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AITG

I know what you mean, Katrina.

Plenty of atheists out there may not feel so alone should they happen to stumble on this.

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Chi

"Compared to them, getting upset because somebody who you consider sanctimonious did not agree with you is very small and petty."

I don't know why you keep thinking I'm upset. I'm fine. And it's not that you didn't agree with me. You went out of your way to very clearly explain why my Christianity is inferior to yours. If it makes me petty to think that's a little sanctimonious, then so be it.

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Ziemia(6a)

No, TexasRanger.

I do know enough. I know a lot. I know there is so much I don't know.

I know that we don't yet actually know which is the oldest Bible. We do not have many super old bibles - such as those existing in the time of Jesus. We do not know about a whole lot. (Just recently we did not have technology that enables us to read really, really old scrolls - so fragile they cannot be opened.)

Or do you only care about the NT?

Do not assume you know more than I do just because what I know doesn't agree with what you know, please.

What you seem to rely on is a tradition of knowing. It is not what I now rely on.

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Ziemia(6a)

PS: several individuals from very long ago are known to us and are studied for many reasons, including inspiration. Jesus is one of them.

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texasranger2

Zeimia, I don't obsess on the Bible the way other people do and I really don't care which copy is the oldest. That is more of a Protestant thing because they rejected so much of Tradition.

If all copies of the Bible in the entire world disappeared the Orthodox Church would still have Holy Tradition, the Liturgy, the Sacraments, Apostolic Succession, the bishops, priests and deacons, the icons, the churches, the holy sites, the monasteries, the writings of the Ancient Church Fathers and Theologians, and all of the many services which make up the Calendar year and which cover the entire Bible as has been passed down through the centuries. We are not dependent on a single book. The Church predates, by a few centuries, canonizing the Bible. Jesus after all was not quoting the New Testament.

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texasranger2

Chi, I can't imagine what made me think you were upset. Maybe its because you keep posting about it and seem rather perturbed.

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texasranger2

catkin, I read a few lines. My response is a firm NO. They do not worship the same God as Christians. Allah is an invention of Mohammed as was supposedly revealed to him and him alone (we are to believe him on face value). He was supposedly instructed to write the Koran which is often a confusing and rambling book filled with insane ideas which garbles Old Testament stories and figures to the point of absurdity in some cases. It strongly reflects the personal resentments and obsessive desire for revenge of "The Prophet" whose 'religion' was rejected by the Jews and Christians as heretical nonsense. The Koran instructs believers to forcibly convert all infidels and murder or place a dhimma tax those who will not bow down to Allah in their quest to rage Holy War in order to convert the world to Islam. There are rewards in heaven for men who do this such as promises of a perpetual erection, an endless supply of virgins, exotic foods and other 'earthly delights' for those who do the "will of Allah". The references are well documented. It is a religion of hate.

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catkinZ8a

It's an interesting read.

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catkinZ8a

It's an ideology.

Some time back it was reported that an alert Maryland police officer saw an Islamic woman in an SUV videotaping a bridge’s support structures. He arrested the driver, Ismail Elbarasse—a Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood operative. An FBI raid on Elbarasse's home unearthed a trove of Islamic doctrinal books and key Muslim Brotherhood documents—which became evidence in the largest terrorism-financing trial in U.S. history.

Islam’s books are “the real bomb,” Muslim reformer Islam al-Behery said. Its ideology is “its blueprint” for world domination. A document from the Elbarasse raid outlines the Muslim Brotherhood’s phased plan to destroy Western civilization from within:



Phase One: Secret establishment of leadership.
Phase Two: Gradual public profile by infiltrating government, the judiciary, finance, intelligence, police, prisons, military, education and religious institutions.
Phase Three: Escalation prior to conflict and confrontation with rulers using mass media.
Phase Four: Publically confront the government using political pressure. Weapons training domestically and overseas in anticipation of zero-hour.
Phase Five: Seize power to establish the Islamic state.



Other documents outline the plan to replace the U.S. Constitution with sharia (Islamic law). Sharia is based on the Quran and other Islamic writings. Moderates see it a spiritual struggle, or outwardly observe it for fear of reprisal. But for radicals, sharia is the legal and political foundation for jihad and global rule, a power play to force Islam on the world. The D.C. based Center for Security Policy calls it a “totalitarian ideology” controlling all legal, political, military, economic and social life. No other laws or governments may coexist with sharia. It’s primarily political, not religious; though in America it masks itself as a religion to manipulate the First Amendment as a front for seditious activity.

The Quran requires all Muslims to wage jihad (holy war) against infidels (non-Muslims). Jihad calls for multiple stages and platforms—violent and pre-violent. An Elbarasse memorandum calls the pre-violent “settlement process” in North America “civilization jihad” to destroy the Western way of life. In jihad’s final, violent stage, non-Muslims convert or die. Though jihad is obvious in North America and Europe, it’s not limited to the West.

The phased plan is a template for radical Muslim subjugation. Indonesia, a secular, mostly moderate Muslim-majority democracy, is a case in point. Its motto, “Unity in Diversity” reflects its six religions and 300 ethnicities. Though religious parties’ gains in national elections have been paltry, locally elected lslamists passed more than 400 sharia ordinances, according to economist.com. Christian incumbent Basuki Tjahaja “Ahok” Purnama lost a recent governor’s race when radical Islamists told Muslim voters that Islam forbids voting for Christians. A video of Ahok’s rebuttal was edited to appear he was insulting the Quran. Charged with blasphemy, he lost the election and was sentenced to jail.

Ahok’s conviction—accompanied by violent rallies and death threats, shows the chilling influence on pluralism by “hardline Islamism that the government and judiciary are reluctant to oppose,” said Time reporter Nicola Smith. In Indonesia, radical Islamists have advanced their plan for global dominance to Phase Four.

Then there’s Iran, whose visceral anti-Semitism and poisonous ideology infuses jihad and sharia, but with a twist. The late Ayatollah Khomeini, and his successor, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, sidestepped Shi’a belief that the Mahdi (12th Imam), a quasi-messianic figure, must return before waging jihad, and adopted an ideology promoting a senior Shiite cleric to theocratic political power over Shiites worldwide. Khomeini offered himself as successor to the 12 Imams, thus “inheriting the mantle of leadership directly from Muhammad,” said expert Clare Lopez.

Khomeini inserted his doctrine into the 1989 constitution, in which the regime’s objective is global conquest under sharia rule and nuclear dominance is a surefire path to achieve that goal.

Iran and its proxies not only menace Israel’s existence and portend regional upheaval, the “bomb” of Islamist ideology threatens the lives and freedoms of every sovereign nation in the world.

https://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Israel-Uncensored/Radical-Islamic-Ideology-a-plague-against-humanity-507327

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Tilly Teabag

AITG

”After years of this, I told him about how I had had a visit from evangelists of the door to door nature. He suddenly looked at me with a grave expression and said "I feel so sorry for them".

i had Jehovah Witnesses visit the other day. I didn’t change religions, however I showed them our chickens and ducks and gave them a dozen eggs.

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texasranger2

Catkin---- I re-read the book 'The Sword of the Prophet The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam' by Serge Trifkovic about three months ago. He has written extensively about Islam in an attempt to warn Western Europeans and Americans.

You know how you hear about moderate Muslims? That they are the ones who practice the real Islam? Then you hear about the ones who have been 'radicalized' as if they are the not-real Muslims? It's actually the other way around. There is no such thing as moderate Islam. There are not various types of Islam. Its a belief system and it is what it is. Those who are 'moderate' are not following Muhammed or the Quran. Moderation is a violation of the laws and a deviation from Islam. Islam is a theocratic political system which stifles every society which practices it. Convincing people that Islam the 'religion of peace' is propaganda used during the "infiltration period" you described above to make people sympathetic toward them. Islam exists in a state of permanent war against anyone who is non-Muslim and there is no 'mild version' of Sharia Law.

Don't try to convince a progressive liberal of that. You will only be accused of spreading hate speech and called names like bigot or Islamophobe (which my spell check tells me is not even a real word). Its mind boggling that agnostic & atheistic women who pride themselves as being activists for women's rights yet have a soft spot for Islam and such hatred of Christianity. It makes no sense at all.

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catkinZ8a

Link added.

What Muslim men don't want is a reputation for letting their women do as they like.


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sableincal

Just to be clear about the word Allah. It simply means God, as in the monotheistic God of the three Abrahamic religions. In Arabic translations of the Bible, both the OT and the NT, it is the word used, as in "In the beginning Allah created the heavens and the earth". When my MIL of blessed memory sang in the choir of her Syrian Orthodox church in the Midwest, she sang the name Allah in hymns in Arabic.

Whether the concept of God/Allah is the same for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - that is a different question, sometimes hotly debated. And not to be resolved here, although the conversation is interesting!

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heri _ cles

Orthodox Christians believe in the same God that Catholics do. Attempting to muddy the waters with your nonsense is not appreciated on Orthodox Christian Good Friday.

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sableincal

I am not attempting to "muddy the waters". What nonsense.

And I am very well aware that it's Orthodox Christian Good Friday, being as both my husband and my best friend belong to that church; my husband's grandfather was a priest and DH was himself an altar boy.

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tony jelly



We are talking religious bigotry here so using the Bible to justify or excuse it is wrong.


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JodiK

"jodik, Who said you are not free to believe as you choose?"


Reread my post, please... you seem to have misinterpreted the context in which I wrote what I did. It was a simple statement... not an accusation or words aimed at anyone in particular. Reading comprehension does count, even within a controversial message board.


It may shock some to learn that we aren't all dependent upon any god, and don't all require such beliefs in order to function as decent, caring and compassionate human beings. I don't believe in any gods or other fairy tales, and feel much the way AITG does.


I've seen no evidence that any god exists, or ever has. The organization of religions seems designed to maintain the submission of large groups of people through fear and guilt. Oh, and god needs money, for some inexplicable reason. Lots of money... much of which never makes it to the charitable causes it is said to be needed for. Funny, that.


L. Ron Hubbard once said, "The fastest path to wealth and power is starting one's own religion." How right he was.




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katrina_ellen

"Reading comprehension does count, even within a controversial message board."

How many times have I read this tired line on HT? What kind of a rebuttal is that? Its accusatory as your other post was. Who cares what you choose to believe? That's your choice, once again. I am not speaking to you about God so you can just SOB, I am totally fine with that.

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texasranger2

JodiK. You've said before we would be shocked to know that atheists can still function as decent, caring and compassionate human beings.

Atheists must feel a profound sense of insecurity because they throw out this defense all the time as if they are constantly being attacked. Its odd because no one I know thinks otherwise. My answer is "so what?" What does that have to do with belief in God or Christianity? Do you really think most average people who convert to Christianity were not decent, caring and compassionate human beings prior to their conversion? Were they all perverse, evil persons or what? That is not what it means to be Christian (or any other religion). Those qualities have to do with human nature, upbringing, societal norms etc. Have you ever questioned why people do possess an innate nature which makes them have these tendencies? Where does this come from? Where does love come from?

By the way, there have been and still are some very terrible people in the world who constructed atheistic systems of government and they have proved to be the most diabolically evil in human history with the most horrible results for their citizens including mass murder on a scale unimaginable. Conversely almost all of the great figures of the world and history who are trusted, loved and respected thought about God in a different way. Simply put, they were people of faith.

As for your last comment, that was true for L. Ron Hubbard who knew how to exploit people. But again so what? Is that supposed to prove something? He should have said "start a cult and write a best selling book" because it would have been more accurate. Bernie Sanders made a million dollars writing a book and selling socialism. Numberless charlatans have always posed as Christians either intentionally or not leading people astray and many rake in money. There is nothing surprising in that. It proves nothing except that the Christian teaching about the fallen nature of man is correct. That's why we need God.

I touched on false religious ideas in my posts and was accused of being "sanctimonious" and judgmental.

All things being fair, that means you are also being sanctimonious and judgmental with your accusations of "fear and guilt" due to a 'superior' ideology of atheism. As an outsider you seem to think you know what you are talking about concerning Christianity from that vantage point.

Well, we all have to believe in something, its in our nature --- atheists believe in themselves, the rest is just nothingness and meaninglessness. Pretty impressive.

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catspa_zone9sunset14

Well, we all have to believe in something, its in our nature --- atheists believe in themselves, the rest is just nothingness and meaninglessness. Pretty impressive.

Wrong in my case, TR -- this atheist finds meaning and substance in the study of ecology, including the human aspects of it -- far more fulfilling than standard religious fare for me.

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JodiK

Ya see? This is exactly why posters are turned off to coming here to discuss anything rationally... because the few insist on playing linguistic gymnastics and using misinterpretation so regularly.


Neither one of you actually understood a word I typed. No matter... carry on by yourselves.


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katrina_ellen

Jodik - oh brother, ok, take your ball and go home.

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texasranger2

catspat---So, you believe in ecology and humans. Many people who claim to be atheists sound more like pantheists or nature worshippers but who am I to quibble over petty details? I'm just an outsider reading comments.

A lot of people would rather go to the movies or stay home and watch TV than go to church or pray because its "more fulfilling" to them. You can list lots of things that fit in the slot of what people find more fulfilling. Actually, and I know this from experience, its a matter of what they find more enjoyable, mentally engaging or just fun.

There are people who do not think everything in life should be fun or about entertainment or their own amusement or their own personal interests. They strive to develop self discipline which, like any other discipline, is obviously difficult at first but eventually they cannot imagine their life without attending church and worshipping God. They discover that what the world offers is utterly empty by comparison. Hard to grasp I know but thats the way it is.

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texasranger2

JodiK---I thought you'd be relieved to know I don't assume you are not compassionate, decent, caring human being.

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haydayhayday

texas:


" There are people who do not think everything in life should be fun or about entertainment or their own amusement or their own personal interests. They strive to develop self discipline which, like any other discipline, is obviously difficult at first but eventually they cannot imagine their life without attending church and worshipping God. They discover that what the world offers is utterly empty by comparison. Hard to grasp I know but thats the way it is."


I've known a lot of people, religious or not, who are, quite frankly, not happy unless they're miserable.


Hard to grasp I know, but that's the way it is.


Hay



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tony jelly

I'll have another try, my last.

Religion as a benign dedication of one's life to God is not a problem when this belief turns to bigotry and hatred for "non-believers," it becomes both problematic and dangerous. History shows that it is the bigotry and not the particular religion that is at fault, this can be easily proven as all religions have spawned this behavior. This is the topic here and proclamations of faith or the lack of do not address it.

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catkinZ8a

Jesus likens the human heart as soil in which the seeds of truth in the Word of God will either grow, flourish and bear fruit or not. Us humans need to 'break up the fallow ground' --soften--cultivate the soil in our hearts in order for the the seed which is the Word of God to germinate.

The Parable of the Sower was told to the crowd that had gathered around Jesus. Jesus tells a story of a sower who scattered seeds on four different types of soil. The first type of ground was hard and the seed could not sprout or grow at all and became snatched up instantly. The second type of ground was stony. The seed was able to plant and begin to grow, however it could not grow deep roots and withered in the sun. The third type of ground was thorny and although the seed could plant and grow, it could not compete with the amount of thorns that overtook it. The fourth ground was good soil that allowed the seed to plant deep, grow strong, and produce fruit.

Jesus used this parable to explain to his followers and the disciples how there are different responses to the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ. The sower in the parable is Jesus and the seed is the word of God (both Jesus's spoken word and today the Bible). The hard ground represents someone with a hardened heart full of sin that hears the word of God but does not accept it. Satan is able to keep this person from growing at all. The stony ground is someone who shows interest and awareness in the Gospel, yet his heart isn't fully convicted so that when trouble comes his faith is not strong enough to stand. The thorny ground is a person who receives the Gospel but who has many other idols and distractions in life - worries, riches, and lusts, which take over his mind and heart and he cannot grow in the truth of God's Word. The good soil is someone who has heard and received the Word of God and allows it to take root and grow within his life. This person represents true salvation that bears good fruit.

Jesus spoke the Parable of the Sower to teach how important the state of our heart is to receiving the Gospel and how our salvation is proved by our choices and actions after hearing the Gospel.

Matthew 13:1-23

1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake.2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.” 10The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

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katrina_ellen

I believe the topic was the slaughter of Christians tony jelly.

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Ziemia(6a)

Like I said above, apparently TR agrees with my perspective:

"... the Orthodox Church would still have Holy Tradition ..."

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haydayhayday


Hay

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haydayhayday



Crawling for God. The more pain, the better.

Hay

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katrina_ellen

Hay, some may think that's what your doing when you are dancing.

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haydayhayday

God sacrificed his only son for our sins?

Well, wasn't that nice of him!

Bless his heart.

More misery. The more, the better.

Happened to see this the other day. The idea of sacrifice for our sins seems to be pretty universal.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/04/mass-child-human-animal-sacrifice-peru-chimu-science/



Exclusive: Ancient Mass Child Sacrifice May Be World's Largest

More than 140 children were ritually killed in a single event in Peru more than 500 years ago. What could possibly have been the reason?

Hay

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haydayhayday

katrina

" Hay, some may think that's what your doing when you are dancing."

Huh?

I do get into a state of utter bliss when I walk into a dance. About as close to what you describe as your religious experiences as I can imagine.

I am literally lost in the dance.

Heavenly! Right here on earth. All I pray for is one more Saturday night.

Hay

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texasranger2

tony jelly

Are you trying to tell us that anyone who says a version of Christianity or any other belief is false amounts to bigotry?

Are you saying that if we disagree with someone, that means we hate them?

If we criticize their ideas does that equal hate speech according to your view?

I ask this because this same idea is being propagated on university campuses across the country resulting in students disrupting talks by chanting like programmed robots because a conservative speaker makes comments they do not agree with.

Often it erupts in violence by the disrupting students. The polite, well behaved speaker, who took the time to think through his thoughts and ideas and who was invited to speak by conservative students is then accused of acts violence (speaking=violence) for voicing his ideas and opinions and backing them up with logical reason.

The disrupters are coddled by those who are supposedly responsible for educating them (rather than baby-sitting) and told there are safe rooms provided to protect their little ears along with counselors to sooth their wounds. This in spite of the fact that they chose to attend and ended up hearing religious or political ideas that they do not agree with.

Not that they didn't go to disrupt in the first place. No no no. They are victims of violence. Such is the appalling state of our 'liberal' universities where the exchange of all ideas was was once common and encouraged to promote free thinking and form adults able to discern for themselves.

Does anyone really think this is conducive to free speech or do you just not care?

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olliesmom

haydayhayday

God sacrificed his only son for our sins?

Well, wasn't that nice of him!

Bless his heart.

More misery. The more, the better.

Happened to see this the other day. The idea of sacrifice for our sins seems to be pretty universal.

^^^^^^

Hay, but Jesus rose from the dead. So, not the same thing, sorry to say.

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texasranger2

hay---back in high school we had a guy named D. Bufton. I think every school has one of these types.

He was the obnoxious class clown that everyone dreaded because he loved and craved attention and enjoyed making loud, cruel jokes at the expense of other people for his own amusement.

My sister saw him many years later and said amazingly he had not changed at all. He yelled at her across the park during a large corporation party something crass and embarrassing to her. He was still that immature kid---- only older.

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haydayhayday

"Hay, but Jesus rose from the dead. So, not the same thing, sorry to say. "


Not the same thing as what?

You believe that, huh?

Let me guess why.

Because it says so in the Bible?


Hay

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tony jelly

Are you trying to tell us that anyone who says a version of Christianity or any other belief is false amounts to bigotry?

Uh, no.

History shows that it is the bigotry and not the particular religion that is at fault, this can be easily proven as all religions have spawned this behavior.

What I mean is that a person's religion in itself is not harmful to others but if this shifts to bigotry (intolerance toward those who hold different opinions) then that is different. This occurs in all religions and is the cause of the violence that is the topic here.

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texasranger2

Well uh------- Yes. You can say that about a lot of things. So what is your point?

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haydayhayday

texas:


"hay---back in high school we had a guy named D. Bufton. I think every school has one of these types.

He was the obnoxious class clown that everyone dreaded because he loved and craved attention and enjoyed making loud, cruel jokes at the expense of other people for his own amusement.

My sister saw him many years later and said amazingly he had not changed at all. He yelled at her across the park during a large corporation party something crass and embarrassing to her. He was still that immature kid---- only older."

Could be worse. I used to pass by a bunch of people who would gather on the street and preach nonsense all day long. If I had wanted to hear their nonsense, I would have gone to church. But, no....IN MY FACE.

I hope I never lose my childhood innocence. You're certainly not going to take it from me.





Hay

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tony jelly

Well uh------- Yes. You can say that about a lot of things. So what is your point?

Is that to me or hay?

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texasranger2

Oh I get it. Islam, "the religion of peace" just has a few bad eggs--- people misinterpreting the Quran and doing bigoted and hateful things. Sure. Go with that if you want. A lot of propaganda and effort has been made to lull Americans into thinking just that and gullible people buy it because it support their narrative.

The new religion of Social Justice is going to replace all that bad stuff and make the world a wonderful place. Never mind that it is not built on a foundation nor does it have a cohesive belief system which is what unites cultures. Everything would work out fine if we just got rid of religions.

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tony jelly

I wasn't asking for an example of bigotry but you illustrate it well - thanks.

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woodnymph2_gw

TR, how many believers of Islam have you actually known well? I have worked with many over decades and found them to be peaceable, decent, compassionate, and certainly rejecting of violence.

Would it not be better to put our energies into finding what we have in common than creating barriers? Particularly within our own America?

You are expending so much negative energy toward the Muslim religion and are so judgemental that I cannot reject my feelings that you are speaking from absurd bias.

Like it or not, Muslims are productive American citizens and are here to stay -- yes, even possibly in your own community.

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katrina_ellen

tony jelly - I have heard this preached over and over by the left ad nauseum. Religions cause violence. A whole lot of things in this world cause violence. Wouldn't you consider the abortion of babies a violent action - the wholesale slaughter of innocent people? The Bible doesn't tell us to go out into the world and murder - just the opposite. Once again it is people that are the problem, not God. How many Christian missions are out there that do so much good in this world, by people living a hand to mouth existence to do so. Somehow that never gets mentioned by the left. Nope, its just negativity.

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tony jelly

Well there ya go katrina that is NOT what I said

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texasranger2

Well hay, I don't know what to tell you about those street people. I don't like them either and I don't like the door knockers or people preaching in my face but then I'm a bigot and hater according to the census here. I just get the duct tape out and deal with it. We got a guy here who wears sandwich boards and looks like a street bum but what can ya do? He's a character and jus doin' his thing, Savin' soul's for Jeeezus.

At least you can tune out the TV dudes preachin' sin, hell and damnation or the Prosperity Gospel leeches who wear slick suits and fly around in jets bilking people for money or the guys pushin' people down on the floor sayin' "Be healed!"

The worst ones for me are now the pietistic social justice warrior liberal 'christian' types or the LGBTQ evangelists waving flags and marching in parades and who want to convert the nation to their religion of sexual celebration along with tolerance for every new version of 'different' they come up with. Both of these groups have gotten more self righteous and worse than the Baptists in their missionary zeal. And.....they use the law to enforce their beliefs. You wouldn't have thought that was possible.

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katrina_ellen

tony jelly - "This occurs in all religions and is the cause of the violence that is the topic here. "

Well explain this.

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texasranger2

wood nymph----- blah blah blah. You know, I really hate it when people do that. We can't all be you---so you put your energies where you want to and I will put mine where I want to. By the way, my druggist is Muslim and I like her.

I made it crystal clear in a post last night that there are many moderate Muslims but that those are the ones who actually do not practice the real Islam in the true and orthodox sense. People really do have that backwards. Its the ones who seem like the 'bad' Muslims who practice the religion according to what Islam actually teaches.

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woodnymph2_gw

I took a course on Islam once, and we learned that the term "Jihad" means a spiritual quest, in the traditional and original Islam. That Islam was unfortunately morphed into a violent form in Saudi Arabia, e.g. Wahabbism.

"We can't all be you"... What is that supposed to mean?

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texasranger2

That is not all of what Jihad means. Its only one aspect. I have studied Islam too.

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Chi

Woodnymph, I agree with you. My boss is Muslim and he's a wonderful guy. He's at mosque right now actually, doing the Friday prayers. He goes every week.

I have a very religious, Christian aquaintance who can't stand Muslims. She always tries to tell me that even the kind, moderate Muslims are faking it and they really hate Christians and want to see them suffer. It's sad.

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texasranger2

Chi, we all know "wonderful" Muslims although "wonderful" seems a bit flowery to me. Lets just say they are good peaceful people like most other people.

We have all also witnessed massive terrorism, violence in unprecedented proportions, immigation nightmares in Europe creating "no go zones", bombings, hate speech, whacking off heads on TV, anti-Western rhetoric, rape, women wearing 'body sacks' with their faces covered, sex slavery, dhimma taxes, genocide etc.

Stop conflating what other people say and using emotional manipulation to shame those who disagree with you. Yes. There are nice Muslims. Everyone agrees. OK?

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tony jelly


Katrina I am not saying bigotry ONLY exists within a religious context

What I mean is that a person's religion in itself is not harmful to others but if this shifts to bigotry (intolerance toward those who hold different opinions) then that is different. This occurs in all religions and is the cause of the violence that is the topic here

If we are to accept that the bombing in Sri Lanka was retaliation for that in Christchurch they are both showing an inability to find any other solution than to escalate the violence. A saying attributed to Gandhi “An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind”

www.brainyquote.com



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Chi

"Stop conflating what other people say and using emotional manipulation to shame those who disagree with you"

I didn't shame anyone. I was replying to woodnymph and speaking generally about my experiences as it related to her post. I didn't quote anyone or discuss what anyone else said other than saying I agree with her story about knowing kind Muslims, and sharing my own story about someone I know who generalizes all Muslims.

If someone felt shamed or took it personally, then I can't be blamed for that kind of reaction, right?

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Ziemia(6a)

Wow...

"Both of these groups have gotten more self righteous and worse than the Baptists in their missionary zeal."

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texasranger2

Zeimia----- thats exactly right. You wouldn't have thought it was humanly possible would you? The SJW liberals and LGBTQ lobby have outdone the Baptists in missionary zeal and self righteousness. Congrats. They even one-upped them. They have been successful in stifling free speech and in many cases made it illegal to hold opposing views--- the Baptists never accomplished that.

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Chi

They have been successful in stifling free speech and in many cases made it illegal to hold opposing views--- the Baptists never accomplished that.

Where/when is it illegal to hold opposing views?

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katrina_ellen

tony jelly, you are pretty good at tap dancing, but I hear the connotation, that comes thru loud and clear. How many times have I heard on the Left that religion is bad, and especially Christians. I don't see Muslim bashing threads from the left on HT, its only Christian bashing threads.

And another connotation that comes thru loud and clear: "I have a very religious, Christian aquaintance who can't stand Muslims. She always tries to tell me that even the kind, moderate Muslims are faking it and they really hate Christians and want to see them suffer. It's sad. "

By using an example of "a very religious Christian" que the narrow minded hypocrite narrative - who distain Muslims its pretty clear. You people don't even hear yourselves anymore. When you are called out you tap dance around what you said and claim you said differently. You are not fooling anyone but yourself and others on the Left that despise Christians.

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Chi

I focused on the very religious description because I feel that she, individually, uses her religion to justify her extreme generalizations on ALL Muslims because she feels like a target due to her religion. I don't believe all Christians feel the same, nor do I believe all very religious Christians feel the same.

She does though, which is why I shared a story specifically about her and not about any other Christians. I could have left the "Christian" label from the story entirely except she specifically feels Christians like herself are the Muslim targets.

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katrina_ellen

chi - you could have clarified that in your original post, instead it sounds like a stereotype of "very religious Christians". And HT is ripe with stereotypes of Christians.

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Tilly Teabag

Everyone here needs to calm down. One aim of terrorism is to incite hate, panic etc. Don’t fall into it.

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catkinZ8a

345 Christians killed world wide every month.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/

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AITG

" And HT is ripe with stereotypes of Christians."

Would I be wrong in assuming that the Christians in question would be extremists?

Are extremists Christian?

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Tilly Teabag

Some are.

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AITG

If they're in the right denomination?

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Tilly Teabag

Nope. I’m ecumenical in the getting along with other denominations, sense.

Nb : edited to correct evangelical to ecumenical.

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AITG

Well to your credit, you've been civil with me ...so there's that. :)

Don't see you as a full on weaponized member of a cult.

I think the philosophy of Christianity is worth pursuing regardless of whether or not there are gods ...if that makes any sense.

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Tilly Teabag

Cults don’t like to let you go. I believe God gave us free choice.

Yes, that makes sense. I’ve known some very good humanists.

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AITG

In a world without gods, freedom of choice is not a choice, but simply the way things are.

Know what I mean? :)

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bob_cville

"start a cult and write a best selling book" Take that, and add time and "tradition" and you have Christianity.

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Tilly Teabag

Nope, AITG, because I believe there is a God.

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AITG

So because of your belief in God, you are rendered incapable of imagining a world without gods?

Not like it's a difficult thought experiment or anything.

I'm sure you are completely capable,

...you're just being stubborn. ;)

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haydayhayday

Free Will is an Illusion.

You do "believe" in the laws of physics, don't you?

http://threeillusions.com/stephen-hawking-on-free-will/

Stephen Hawking:

Do people have free will? If we have free will, where in the evolutionary tree did it develop? Do blue-green algae or bacteria have free will, or is their behavior automatic and within the realm of scientific law? Is it only multicelled organisms that have free will, or only mammals? We might think that a chimpanzee is exercising free will when it chooses to chomp on a banana, or a cat when it rips up your sofa, but what about the roundworm called Caenorhabditis elegans—a simple creature made of only 959 cells? It probably never thinks, “That was damn tasty bacteria I got to dine on back there,” yet it too has a definite preference in food and will either settle for an unattractive meal or go foraging for something better, depending on recent experience. Is that the exercise of free will?

Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.”

Popeye:




Some unknown itinerant camel herder from a few thousand years ago:

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: "

Hay

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haydayhayday

Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.



Hay

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haydayhayday

What did they teach you in church today?

Hay

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texasranger2

Orthodox scholar and author Vladimir Moss wrote:

Theologians say that God created the universe out of nothing; Stephen Hawkins and other atheistic physicists say that it 'emerged" from nothing. The first explanation has much more to commend it than the second because while we cannot know how God created everything out of nothing, the idea is nevertheless comprehensible; first because the idea of a Creator Who is incomprehensible to His creatures is quite comprehensible, and secondly because God is at any rate something and not nothing. It also has the advantage that it provides answers to the question "Why?" in the sense of "For what purpose?" We can say for example, that God created the universe because His nature is love, and He wants creatures to exist in order to share His love.

The second explanation, however, not only provides no conceivable answer to the questions "How" and "Why?" It is itself nonsensical.

"For out of nothing, nothing can come." King Lear IV, 4,122-6"

It takes more faith to believe the second than the first but there are many faithful atheists who now venerate Stephen Hawking as one of their God-destroying apostles.

Professor of mathematics (emeritus) at the University of Oxford, John Lennox said "To presuppose the existence of the universe to account for its own existence sounds like something out of Alice in Wonderland, not science. It is seldom that one finds in a single statement two distinct levels of contradiction, but Hawking appears to have constructed such a statement. He said the universe comes from a nothing that turns out to be something (self-contradiction #1), and then he says the universe creates itself (self-contradiction #2). But that is not all. His notion that a law of nature (gravity) explains the existence of the universe is also self contradictory, since a law of nature, by definition, surely depends for its own existence on the prior existence of the nature it purports to describe. Philosophers might be tempted to comment:

Stephen Hawking is dead. Philosophy is still alive. "

Hawking's was a great physicist but embarrassing as a philosopher in his contradictory and ludicrous attempt to explain metaphysics. His arguments can be and have been torn down by both scientists and philosophers.

haydayhayday---- Despite your egocentric cynicism and mockery of Christianity, the singular inescapable problem still remains----- something outside of time and space created the universe. It is a humbling reality but no other argument makes sense.

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haydayhayday

"Theologians say that God created the universe out of nothing; Stephen Hawkins and other atheistic physicists say that it 'emerged" from nothing. The first explanation has much more to commend it than the second because while we cannot know how God created everything out of nothing, the idea is nevertheless comprehensible"

...

"It is a humbling reality but no other argument makes sense."

Nonsense.

Utter and complete NONSENSE!

Hay


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haydayhayday

"I don't understand it.

Therefore, God exists. "

Orthodox Logic.

Hay

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haydayhayday

And, if you want someone to explain just exactly how this god came into being, ask some crazed goat herder who's been out in the scorching hot sun too long. Some unknown wandering around in the desert a few thousand years ago.

"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am"

Perfectly, "comprehensible"

Hay

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texasranger2

OK, hay---- since we are illogical and backwards then enlighten us with your logic and explanation of how something can come from nothing so we can share your faith in that.

You could start by telling us where gravity came from. Hawking ignored that glaring problem in his metaphysical conclusion. A person can only suppose we were all supposed to be so in awe that he was such a genius in physics that nothing he said would be questioned and no one would notice.

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haydayhayday

"OK, hay---- since we are illogical and backwards then enlighten us with your logic and explanation of how nothing can come from nothing so we can share your faith in that.

I can barely balance my checkbook.

Therefore, I'm not going to try explaining anything more complicated than simple arithmetic.

Hay logic.


0=1+(-1)=0=2+(-2)....

Hay

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woodnymph2_gw

What a waste of a lovely spring morning. Hay, hope your hydrangeas will be great this summer!

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haydayhayday

"You could start by telling us where gravity came from."


For difficult questions like this, I look to the Bible.


Hay

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haydayhayday

"What a waste of a lovely spring morning."


You call "cold and wet" lovely?


How are you wasting today?


I'm having fun. I enjoy thinking.



Hay

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woodnymph2_gw

Well, it's gorgeous here in SC and our hydrangeas are already starting to bloom.

Have at it. I'm out on my bicycle, mostly.

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haydayhayday

Sunday is my usual day of rest. Me and God.

After a week of hard dancing, after a Friday night followed by a Saturday night, I need a rest.


Me and God are alike that way.


Hay

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Tilly Teabag


haydayhayday

"You could start by telling us where gravity came from."


“For difficult questions like this, I look to the Bible.


Hay”

It does tend to fall when you drop it.

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Tilly Teabag

AITG

“So because of your belief in God, you are rendered incapable of imagining a world without gods?”

not entirely. My faith was bolstered by my seeing a few miracles. Like a runaway shopping trolley that travelled up a slope and turned a corner to park itself in a trolley bay. It had my baby in the child seat.

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AITG

Oh I've seen things that were one in a million chances, not to belittle your experience, which no doubt would make one thankful to something, anything at a time like that. So thankful myself and heck, I don't even know ya. As I was saying though, I've seen things that defy reason and rational sense. Still not convinced though.

To indicate otherwise would be dishonest.

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tryingtounderstand

I have not been keeping up with this thread, so have no idea what has been said. What struck me, and brought a tear and pang was this comment by Tilley “ It had my baby in the child seat”. I totally get it, most moms and dads would!

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AITG

I have no kids and I get it.

Just sayin...

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tryingtounderstand

Got it, AITG (:

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Tilly Teabag

Yeah, I was loading the back of my husband’s van with groceries and I let go for a split second. It was night time and there was a long way for the trolley to go to hit the fence, I was afraid she would then bounce out. I ran but couldn’t catch it. It turned the corner... My older child was in the back and saw the whole thing, he remembered it years later.

I still wonder what was she saved for. Something, I’m guessing.

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AITG

Here's mine, short version :

Was stupid enough to bicycle on a highway after dark with no reflectors, lights, etc.

Got hit from behind by a car that didn't have time to break and was moving at (at least) 70 mph.

I was vaulted into the air just high enough that the car went entirely under me without touching me at all and I landed on my back effectively only scuffing up my shoulders a bit.

SOOOOOOO many factors could've been off by a nanometer and the outcome would have been far grislier.

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Tilly Teabag

AITG, you were saved for a purpose. Maybe you’ve done some good since.

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tryingtounderstand

Tilley, I have had similar. But, I’m not clear is a trolley the same thing as a stroller?

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tryingtounderstand

OMG, AITG! Just got goose bumps... our posts are crossing

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AITG

" AITG, you were saved for a purpose."

To save you from religion? Nah that can't be it. ;)

Actually I consider myself immensely lucky. See it the same for you and TTU as well. Sometimes one can easily jump to the conclusion that a higher power is at work.

...especially at traumatic times like those.

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AITG

Like a rabbit ran over your grave? ;)

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Tilly Teabag

AITG,

you didn’t say if you’ve done any good.

Dont think I believe in luck. Maybe probability, IDK. Miracles, definitely. Just look at the intricacy of the human body. The brain alone..

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Tilly Teabag

Tryingtounderstand, I’m glad your little one survived on that occasion.

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haydayhayday

"A sucker is born every minute."

I'm not a believer in "free will".

I wouldn't doubt that "believers" are born with more of a tendency to become "believers" than others.


Me, I'm the "doubting Thomas" type.


"A sucker is born every minute."


Hay

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haydayhayday

Seeing is believing? Can you "believe" your eyes?

Tilly:

"My faith was bolstered by my seeing a few miracles. Like a runaway shopping trolley that travelled up a slope and turned a corner to park itself in a trolley bay. It had my baby in the child seat. "

A miracle or an illusion?

Delusion?

" an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder."

What you "saw" is really just a well known, scientifically explained, phenomenon. "Believe" it or Not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_hill

"A gravity hill, also known as a magnetic hill, mystery hill, mystery spot, gravity road, or anti-gravity hill, is a place where the layout of the surrounding land produces an optical illusion, making a slight downhill slope appear to be an uphill slope. Thus, a car left out of gear will appear to be rolling uphill against gravity. There are hundreds of recognised gravity hills around the world.

The slope of gravity hills is an optical illusion, although sites are often accompanied by claims that magnetic or supernatural forces are at work. The most important factor contributing to the illusion is a completely or mostly obstructed horizon. Without a horizon, it becomes difficult to judge the slope of a surface as a reliable reference is missing. Objects which one would normally assume to be more or less perpendicular to the ground, such as trees, may actually be leaning, offsetting the visual reference."

Here is an extensive list. Could be one as near as your local grocery store parking lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gravity_hills

Hay

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haydayhayday

Seeing is believing?



Read about it:

https://uncoveringpa.com/gravity-hill-pittsburgh

After I saw the story, just to be sure there was really such an address, I googled it on Google Maps.

Yep, there it is.



Simple explanation:



A believer is born every second.

Hay

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haydayhayday

So many miracles to see in this world. If you're a believer, the world must be a real wonder.


My personal favorite miracle starts at about 3:25. Very similar to your miracle in the parking lot.


A sucker is born every minute.

Hay


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AITG

" you didn’t say if you’ve done any good. "

Well I took it as a statement more than a question when you said

"Maybe you’ve done some good since. "

Every move we make in every instant of our lives is either in the service of good or evil. Most of it unconsciously.

May be going out on a limb here, but I suspect everyone has done their fair share of both.

" Just look at the intricacy of the human body. "

It is amazing, I agree.




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queenmargo

Hay- then what you say is nothing but biological force. Why bother. Go dance.

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haydayhayday

Tilly:

"My faith was bolstered by my seeing a few miracles. Like a runaway shopping trolley that travelled up a slope and turned a corner to park itself in a trolley bay. It had my baby in the child seat."

Now that you can see, with your own eyes, a very plausible, reasonable, scientific explanation of your "miracle", I'm curious:

Is your "faith" a little less certain now?

I doubt it.

Hay

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haydayhayday

" Just look at the intricacy of the human body. "

The "miracle" of Darwinism is that he, quite revolutionarily, opened the world's eyes to the possibility that very "complex" biological features can evolve from very simple features.

We didn't start out with eyeballs in our evolutionary journey.

It's called evolution. The camel herder never quite understood it. Bless his heart. You and the camel herder.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Margie:

"Hay- then what you say is nothing but biological force. Why bother. Go dance."



I have no will power.

Applies to me, too. Fact is, too, if you're alive, you've got to be doing something. It's either this or clean my house. Those are the choices I see right now.

And, It truly is hard for me to dance if the sun is shining and I don't have a beer in my hand.

Hay

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AITG

The beverage is a counter balance. ;)

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haydayhayday

AITG:

"Every move we make in every instant of our lives is either in the service of good or evil. Most of it unconsciously.

May be going out on a limb here, but I suspect everyone has done their fair share of both."

They got you, didn't they?

We share a lot of DNA with just about every living creature we encounter. Do you think our distant cousin, the housefly, ever thinks in those terms?

I don't do evil. Some people are obsessed with it.

Hay

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AITG

Evil is defined by it's capacity to annoy us.

Monkey see, monkey do.

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haydayhayday

"Evil is defined by it's capacity to annoy us."

Right now, that would be the housefly buzzing around my room.


That and your gods. They annoy me.

(Not really in either case. Really, though, the beer.)


Hay


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haydayhayday

Time to eat. I got a busy week ahead. Nothing but good stuff.


Life is good. I'm sorry for those who can't find the pleasures in life.


Hay

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queenmargo

Life is good. I'm sorry for those who can't find the pleasures in life.

aaah, but is it just an illusion?

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AITG

"That and your gods. They annoy me."

Everyone is the god of their own perceived reality. Their deities, if any, play second fiddle 9 times out of 10.

Yeah, that's just a guess.

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AITG

enjoy your lunch.

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Ziemia(6a)

"Dont think I believe in luck. Maybe probability, IDK. Miracles, definitely."

So those folks who got crushed by the fallen crane in Seattle - that was a miracle?

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ubro(2a)

I'll have another try, my last.

Religion as a benign dedication of one's life to God is not a problem when this belief turns to bigotry and hatred for "non-believers," it becomes both problematic and dangerous. History shows that it is the bigotry and not the particular religion that is at fault, this can be easily proven as all religions have spawned this behavior. This is the topic here and proclamations of faith or the lack of do not address it.

This comment is spot on, thank you.


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bob_cville

>Religion as a benign dedication of one's life to God is not a problem
when this belief turns to bigotry and hatred for "non-believers,"
it becomes both problematic and dangerous.

I agree with this, and since I believe that all religions are a bunch of made up nonsense and hooey, the best yardstick by which different, specific instances of religion can be compared with one another, would be how readily a given religion's tenets and beliefs affords (provides a capability to allow something to happen) being turned to bigotry and hatred for any given set of others.



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texasranger2

"When this belief turns to bigotry and hatred for "non-believers" it becomes both problematic and dangerous"

Christianity teaches marriage is between a man and a woman. During the "gay marriage debate" were all told that marriage between homosexuals was the only issue---just let them marry----"Love wins". OK, fine, or so many lukewarm Christians naively thought. But there was a lot more to it than that. It was also about punishing those who were not onboard---especially the religious Christians. The livelihoods of bakers, photographers, farmers (refusing to host gay weddings) and the CEO or Mozilla were destroyed for not completely adhering to the Thought Police's demands.

Those people must be made to care. By force.

Is that bigotry and hatred against Christians? I say it is.

but that's not all.....

The Trans Police are now showing their teeth in the cultural war. They are making sure we not only "care" about them but that we also adhere to another new LGBTQ orthodoxy. Parents who do not play along with the Thought Police concerning gender dysphoria could one day be faced with a visit from Child Protective Services and their children are being indoctrinated to conform to the new belief. The totalitarian manner in which this newest sub group is forcing everyone into submission with yet another LGBTQ demand is staggering. Dissenters are shouted down and forced into submission by those who claim to be "open minded" and "tolerant". The lesson must be learned and everyone must convert to their beliefs, by the use of legalized force if necessary. Many have already "learned the lesson" first hand by being punished for not changing adjusting their language to adopt more new words dictated by the LGBTQ Police or else be accused of Hate Speech which equals Violence.

So, here we are. Devout Christians now face another dilemma on top of the marriage dilemma. They believe God created male and female. What this amounts to is they are being told to denounce their beliefs and faith by agreeing people can change their gender---or else. This makes them the target of hatred not unlike they face in Muslim countries where they refuse to denounce their faith to accept Islam.

The Left calls their refusal to submit bigotry and hatred. "Its problematic and dangerous". DANGEROUS. While they are busy fear mongering with proclamations like that-- their activists are lobbying like little worker ants behind the scenes to systematically push for strict laws to punish and slander anyone or any group who will not cooperate with their dogmatic beliefs and demands and reform society into a godless image of their own likeness. They are working to tear down the foundations and rebuild it anew. Then they sarcastically ask "Why are you so obsessed with sex? Why do you care what other people do or who sleeps with who? How does it affect you?" all the while demanding:

You must be made to care. You must believe. You must submit.

Ironically, Christians are forced to keep their own beliefs out of the public square, the government and the schools. They are fair game for any kind of hatred or bigotry --- because they deserve it for disagreeing and holding onto the traditions they revere.

The sanctimonious Left magnanimously allows: As long as their belief is kept "benign" and very private, in other words -- silent so they don't grate on our nerves and we never have to listen to it--- they will be tolerated by us. That is so very generous. In the meantime their children will be indoctrinated by us while the parents are forced to adopt the secular dictates of correct speech and thought; following all rules imposed on society by radical liberals and the LGBTQ Thought Police. They must not voice an opposing thought or use a wrong pronoun because that amounts to hate speech, according to the Left

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tony jelly

Those are my words Tr and do not come from some dark corner known as 'The Left.'

The problematic bigotry is not restricted to any particular belief and if that was such a thing as the LGBTQ Thought Police, I am sure they would qualify.

History shows that it is the bigotry and not the particular religion that is at fault

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texasranger2

"When this belief turns to bigotry and hatred for "non believers" it becomes problematic and dangerous.

Dangerous to who? and Why?

We all know the answer. The growing hatred of Christians is a consequence of the sexual revolution which created the politics of promiscuity and called for a world without God who says "no".

Christianity is viewed as the mortal enemy of the "gay rights"movement, the abortion industry and the new transgender obsession.

The "gay rights" movement. That tyrannical movement which falsely teaches that pride--- the father of all the other vices---is a virtue.

The entertainment world, sports, colleges and universities, major corporations, government bureaucracy and even some members of the Senate have bought into cultural hedonism.

Many Christians in America have been standing still, not realizing they too have been sinking into the stinking mire of the secular culture, aiding and abetting its moral decline through compromise and silence due to their desire for material comforts and political gain.

History has shown that Christianity thrives in persecution. We have gotten to the point that the reality of the situation is now impossible to ignore. The time has come to fight back with all we have and stop cooperating with the madness in a country where God-fearing people living Christian lives of decency and common sense are now slandered as "deplorable" and "extremists".

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tony jelly

I am the one who wrote them here and you cut and pasted them.

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tony jelly

Ubro cut and pasted all my words, on the other hand, you cherry picked them to make another long-winded refusal to countenance anyone else's opinion but yours

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katrina_ellen

Hitler was a believer in evolution, and all the other Godless acts he did were based on secularism. Islam treats women as less than a person, homosexuality is punished in brutal ways and yet Muslims have a saying - women are for children, boys are for sex. And yet thread after thread bashes Christians. I have never seen one bashing Islam. Whats up with that? Not that I would participate in threads like that but its such hypocrisy.

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bob_cville

> Christianity is viewed as the mortal enemy of the "gay rights"movement,
the abortion industry and the new transgender obsession.

I'd say rather your particular brand of Christianity is viewed as the mortal enemy of the "gay rights" movement, the abortion industry and the new transgender obsession, only because it has openly and loudly and repeatedly declared itself to be the mortal enemy of the "gay rights" movement, the abortion industry and the new transgender obsession, through both words and actions.

Paraphrasing: "Those mean nasty tyrannical gays are upset that my interpretation of my religion allows, nay demands, that I be bigoted against them and treat them with hate and scorn. Its hard work being filled with hatred all the time, but it work I'm willing to do as a part of my Christian life of decency."

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tony jelly

Katrina, if you posted a factual criticism of secularism or Islam rather than the mythology and inaccuracies in your latest post, perhaps the response would be different.

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katrina_ellen

Who says its not factual, you? I know it is. Anyone can shoot down the messenger, that's a cheap shot tony jelly.

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tony jelly

You have opened a can of worms Katrina. Why did Hitler exterminate Jews in particular, do you think it was because he read Darwin? There is no mention of Jews in Darwin's writing. Hitler was not the originator of anti Semitism which goes back a long way and picks up a head of steam when Christianity came along. Perhaps Hitler was a Christian?

The accusation you level at Muslims is inaccurate because as far as I know it is only practiced in Afghanistan, of course, this doesn't make it right but treating Muslims, or Christians as a monolith is inaccurate.

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texasranger2

Same sex marriage is out of the question in Islam.

Actually, both religions, Christianity and Islam, agree on this and have historically taken the same approach. The homosexual act is forbidden in both based on the teaching of the Bible and the Qur'an. The Qur'an contains a similar story to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible along with other strong references against it.

They agree:

It clashes with the 'natural order' in which God created human beings.

It brings destruction of the family and the institutions of marriage.

It leads people to ignore God's guidance in other areas of life.

Islam and Christianity both teach that believers should neither participate in or support homosexuality.

Muslims generally believe that homosexuality stems from a conditioning or exposure and that a person who feels homosexual urges should strive to change.

Christianity teaches the same adding God is merciful and no one suffers temptations that cannot be overcome by calling on the help of God.

Both teach:

Homosexuality is a challenge and struggle to overcome just the same as others face in their lives in different ways. There is no judgement from God against people who feel homosexual impulses but do not act on them.

People can call this hatred if that is their definition of hatred or if it fits their narrative. There is no talking to some people but if you are going to condemn Christians who still adhere to this belief in all fairness, you should condemn Muslims as well and stop with all the ignorant 'bigot accusations' against Christians who choose to follow the teachings passed down through the centuries just because it personally offends your own choices, lifestyle or current political opinions.

Punishments in Muslim countries vary from country to county ranging from jail time or flogging or the death penalty (particularly in Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen). We don't see Christians doing that and the idea of punishment is where we part company on this issue. Interestingly, you will not see gay pride parades in these countries for obvious reasons. It would be suicidal.



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Mattie

Same sex marriage is out of the question in Islam. Actually, both religions, Christianity and Islam, agree on this

Oh really.

Care to quote chapter and verse on that?

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bob_cville

I now understand why you glibly dismissed the comparison between your outlook and the fictional world depicted in the book "The Handmaid's Tale" as "another ominous warning". Not because the fictional world depicted therein is so over-the-top and outlandish and extreme that it is not really believable. Instead it is because except for some minor quibbles, (maybe you'd hate to have to wear blue all the time) you'd find the world described there preferable to the real world of today.

What's not to love? : A strict Christian-ruled government that helps everyone to be a better person and a better Christian whether they want it or not. Its for their own good, and the good of the country. If this "helping them" requires torment or torture, well, being a good Christian is hard work. Plus "gender traitors" and people who have had or performed abortions would get what coming to them. You might even enjoy voluntarily serving as an "Eye" to report friends, neighbors or even passers-by who lapse in any minor way. For their own good, of course.

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"I suppose people are, especially given comments like the dumb one heyday made yesterday about "What did you learn in church today?" I guess he/she thought that was a real got-cha except all it did was show a profound ignorance of what worship is really about. We had company to celebrate Pascha and we all had a good laugh about that one except it was so pitiful it wasn't all that funny. It was on par with the Times saying the priest went back into Notre Dame to save "a statue" when he risked his life to rescue the body of Christ. Ignorance on steroids. "

Huh? Where'd that come from?

I certainly wasn't addressing you. You had been gone for a day and a half when I posted that question. (Actually, I said, "What did they teach you in church today? " ) 16 comments from others between your and my comment that you're highlighting.

It's not at all addressed to you. No gotcha. Just a simple question.

The Sunday services I'm familiar with all tended to have a "lesson" in there somewhere. Isn't that what a sermon is? Isn't that what Sunday School is? Isn't that what Vacation Bible School is?

I'll grant you that I know very little about your religion. What I do know is learned from you. (It's not pretty.)

Ignorance on Steroids? I'm glad you and your friends managed to laugh.

"It was on par with the Times saying the priest went back into Notre Dame to save "a statue" when he risked his life to rescue the body of Christ. Ignorance on steroids. "

I had seen that story when it was unfolding. I guess some people really do take seriously that nonsense about how it really is Christ's body in those jars or where ever it is that they keep that stuff. (Forgive me, please, for not knowing the proper terms for this stuff.) But, I think it's certainly reasonable for people who aren't totally devoted to Christ and the ways of the churches to hear "body of Christ" and think it might mean a statue and not some wafers.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Forgive my ignorance, but, is this your group?



My goodness. A lot of ritual when you "worship". A lot of crossing. A lot of kissing. My goodness. Walk around the building a while. Carry a lot of candles. Wear funny clothes.

That's Worship? Is that what you did on Sunday?

Very pretty, though.

Hay

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AITG

LOL

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texasranger2

hay----Yes. Thats 'my group'. I'm a groupie in that group.

You do have a way with the words. Thats what we did on Saturday night, close to midnight. Its very beautiful. All the services during Holy Week are long and very sombre. There is a lot of ritual, chanting, incense, candles, vestments etc. You know you are worshipping in a church rather than sitting through a lecture or listening to bad music on a loud speaker system.

Its in the West that they celebrate the Easter Service in the morning.

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haydayhayday

I'll admit you've got a tough row to hoe if you think you're ever going to convince me that any of this "religion" that you preach is anything other than wild imaginations gone wild.

At the same time, I am very interested in trying to understand how so many people are able to get themselves caught up in what I perceive to be just total nonsense.


Keep talking. Please.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I have some questions.


Start with:


Where does this idea of "sacrifice" come from.


The Old Testament is full of it and then God sacrifices his only son...Crazy in my mind. Explain to me what that's all about. If you want.


Hay

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haydayhayday

Another question.

Where does all this ritual come from? It really does not jell with the "Christ" that I'm told I'm supposed to emulate. The humble, caring for the poor, Christ.

Ritual? Why so much? Did God ask that you "worship" in this manner? "Demand"?

With all those shiny jewel-encrusted costumes? Is that really pleasing to Christ?

Hay

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AITG

"Where does this idea of "sacrifice" come from. "

Leviticus 7:8

"Is that really pleasing to Christ?"

That's just Mammon.

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"hay----Yes. Thats 'my group'. I'm a groupie in that group.

You do have a way with the words. "

You've got me gun shy with your accusation of not using the right words. Group seemed appropriate given I didn't know how you refer to yourselves. Would "cult" work better?

Hay

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haydayhayday

"Leviticus 7:8 "?

I must be really ignorant. Still makes no sense to me.


Jesus had to be sacrificed for our sins? Crazy talk?


Hay




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AITG

The priest who offers a burnt offering for anyone may keep its hide for himself.

I was just making a little joke, that's all.

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haydayhayday

AITG:

" I was just making a little joke, that's all. "

I figured that might be what you were doing, but, with religion, it's hard to know, (for ignorant me), what's a joke and what's meant to be taken seriously.

Hay

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haydayhayday

"The priest who offers a burnt offering for anyone may keep its hide for himself. "

When I quickly scanned those verses, it sounded more like a "tax" to support the priest and/or a fine/compensation for being bad. Looks like they, (the earthlings), ended up eating most of the good meat.

But, nailing God's son to a cross doesn't seem to be in the same category.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Texas:

" There is a lot of ritual, chanting, incense, candles, vestments etc. You know you are worshipping in a church rather than sitting through a lecture or listening to bad music on a loud speaker system. "

I like Mardi Gras parties. Every year when I get my new wall calendar, one of the first things I do is find out which Tuesday is Mardi Gras. I wouldn't miss it for anything. The music is great.

Hay

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AITG

He was supposed to give himself up for us.

But he resurrects and that sounds like cheating the system to me.

But again I'm being humorous here.

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catkinZ8a



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catkinZ8a



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AITG


From the lyrics, oh and Proverbs 31:3

Give not thy strength unto women nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings


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haydayhayday

Nicole C. Mullen

"Who taught the sun where to stand in the morning?
Who told the ocean you can only come this far?
Who showed the moon where to hide 'til evening?
Whose words alone can catch a falling star?
Well I know my Redeemer lives
I know my Redeemer lives
All of creation testify
This life within me cries
I know my Redeemer lives
The very same God that spins things in orbit
He runs to the weary, the worn and the weak
And the same gentle hands that hold me when I'm broken
They conquered death to bring me victory
Now I know my Redeemer lives
I know my Redeemer lives
Let all creation testify
Let this life within me cry
I know my Redeemer, He lives
To take away my shame
And He lives forever, I'll proclaim
That the payment for my sin
Was the precious life He gave
But now He's alive and
There's an empty grave
Now I know my Redeemer lives
I know my Redeemer lives
Let all creation testify
Let this life within me cry
I know my Redeemer, He lives"



That just makes no sense to me at all.

Paying for sins?

By nailing your "son" to a cross?

Crazy Talk.

Hay

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Tilly Teabag


I think it’s good that there are enquiring minds and hearts here on this thread. Christians believe that Jesus was sent to Earth to die and then conquer death so that believers can go to Heaven after death instead of somewhere worse.

The traditions surrounding that belief, such as sparkly or embroidered vestments are different for various denominations, but give comfort to believers and don’t usually hurt anyone.

Texas, beware of your anger, it’s understandable because of the terrorism on Easter Sunday, but it’s also what terrorists want you to display.

I also remember awhile ago when you said you regret losing your temper here sometimes. I wanted to put this in a private message but you have yours turned off.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUI2EyYIEKs

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AITG



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AITG



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AITG



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haydayhayday

And then Tilly's feel good song.

Would it be fair to say that religion tends to appeal to the most miserable among us.

The poor for instance?


Never walk alone? I'd rather walk alone than walk with someone who needs blood sacrifices made to him.

Nightie, Night. Time to say my prayers and go to bed.


Hay

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catkinZ8a

Then it's...back to black for you.




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AITG



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texasranger2

hayday-----I'm trusting that you aren't just setting me up for ridicule. I'm a reclusive type whose personality leaves a lot to desired but I will do my best. A lot of other people could explain this much better.

You asked a lot of questions that take a lot of explaining. Theology, like the impression you have probably picked up, is the Western Roman Catholic version of theology which is quite different than the theology in the Eastern Church. Protestantism comes out of that same tradition only they dropped a whole lot of stuff as being "too Catholic".

Basically, the Western half of Christianity thinks in terms of legal, juridical categories--that man offended God and that the justice of God could only be served by making a satisfaction or just payment of penalty, so a sacrifice was necessary. The picture is of an angry, offended God where a person is redeemed from His wrath and granted justification through Christ's sacrifice on the cross in man's guilty place. In other words, Christ is viewed as a "penal substitution"; as a sacrifice to appease the angry Father's wrath. Is it any wonder many people find in this situation something to resent? I know I used to feel quite put off about it and scared of going straight to hell in a hand-basket worrying if I was really saved or not since I never felt "saved", frankly I was repulsed and it made me think I was doomed. Think of it---an angry God 'up there' needing to be appeased or else you go straight to Hell like you are being held over the flames by a thin thread.

Sorry, I got carried away... anyway....

In the Orthodox East the doctrine of redemption is linked up with the Incarnation of Christ and deification; it is not viewed in judicial terms like in the West. The consequences of the fall was man (represented by Adam) was separated from God due to his own free will in choosing that separation because he desired to be 'like God' as he was tempted by the serpent (satan) to believe. His communion with God was broken.

Unlike in the West, Eastern theology views redemption in positive terms where one is actually called to really participate in the personal and divine energies of the Trinity through the incarnation of Christ as the second Adam who was crucified and descended into Hell to conquer death by death thereby opening the way for man's salvation as the second Adam (God incarnate, two natures, fully man and fully God). The process of salvation is called deification and is worked out by each person in this life and continues into the next adding perfection onto perfection.

The idea of Hell is viewed differently in the Orthodox East. Hell is not a place God sends people to be punished. Heaven will be hell to some and heaven to others because the presence of God is like a consuming fire. Just as God's grace and love is offered equally to all here on Earth and shines on each alike, so it will be in eternity. That is why before communion the priest says "In faith and love and fear of God draw near". We spend this life struggling to become "Christlike' or else we choose to not do so. It depends on us and our free will to choose what we desire. In the Final Judgement Christ will either know you or not know you---- as it says in the Bible "Didn't we this in your name and didn't we that in your name but Christ says to them depart from me I do not know you" and they go away where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (rather than God sending people to hell because He wants to punish them).

Salvation is not the once saved, always saved theology believed by some Protestants, rather salvation is a continual process by where man is being perfected through Christ through repentance (confession) and the Eucharist (the sacrificial body and blood of Christ). Salvation is a lifetime struggle against the passions by which man is controlled that takes place in degrees as he is perfected and brought back to his original state as created by God in His own image and likeness. This is why many become monastics in the Orthodox Church. Monasticism makes no sense in Protestant theology or to a secularist.

As far as vestments, candles, ritual, incense and all the rest is concerned the worship experience in an Orthodox Church incorporates all of the senses and is intended to be beautiful in every respect. The church is a sacred space where everything evokes a sense of awe, spirituality and holiness to draw man to God. An other worldliness exists in the church that is separate and distinct from the earthly world.

The Eucharist (un-bloody sacrifice) was instituted by Christ himself to his Apostles at the Last Supper but other than that, the services, readings and building design resemble a Jewish Temple of Christ's day more so than what you typically see and hear in a typical American church service. A first century Christian----the earliest Christians, who were mainly converted Jews ---worshipped in the Jewish Temple until the Christians and Jews split apart over things too complicated to get into here. They would not find all that much has changed in today's Orthodox Church service but they would not recognize what in the world they are witnessing in most modern American churches.

About the poor. That is one of the things Christ taught. That's pretty simple, basic stuff.



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Tilly Teabag

Texas

”About the poor. That is one of the things Christ taught. That's pretty simple, basic stuff.”

Not if you havn’t encountered it before. Have patience.

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texasranger2

Tilly---I haven't lost my temper on this particular thread so I don't need a private message with a warning from you on that score.

I haven't the faintest idea what you are getting at in that last post. Do you mean I haven't encountered the poor and I should be patient or what?

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Tilly Teabag

What I see on this thread is you not losing your temper? I’m afraid that is what I do see. I have read and admired many of your posts before. But you’re coming across on here as angry. I’m guessing because of the terrorism against Christians. Or the combat on Hot Topics, or both.

However I also see souls on this thread that are genuinely seeking answers.

No, I didn’t mean that you havn’t encountered the poor, but that people here who don’t know the Bible well won’t know to what you are referring.

If it is any consolation , I take the Left to task for losing patience too.

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texasranger2

You are guessing wrong.

Some people don't like hot debates and others do. I myself do. I noticed a day or so ago you assumed a moderator's tone instructing everyone else to chill.

uh.... my advice to you ---and anyone else who can't take a heated debate--- is drop out of the conversation. No one appreciates it when a member takes on the role of facilitator and most resent being taken to task by someone who assumes its their duty to take both sides to task when they see fit.

If you do want to see me get angry, that kind of stuff will do it every time. I spent over an hour on that post and these are your comments? Please......

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Tilly Teabag

Nope, won’t be obliging you about dropping out of the conversation. I like the enquiring minds too much to do that, and I’m not angry at them.

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haydayhayday

Thank you, Texas. I very much appreciate your taking the time to elaborate on the details of your beliefs.


While I can see that, to you, it all fits together like a nice jigsaw puzzle, to me, it's mostly gibberish sounding. Knowing how our conversations pan out, I suspect you could and would very well take offense with my using the word, "gibberish" I don't know how else to say it. It's not coming from ridicule. It's an honest expression of my own reaction to what you wrote.


To get the "gibberish" part out of the way:


This much I sorta agree with:


"Think of it---an angry God 'up there' needing to be appeased or else you go straight to Hell like you are being held over the flames by a thin thread."


Or, expressed in MY words, up above:" Never walk alone? I'd rather walk alone than walk with someone who needs blood sacrifices made to him."


Texas again:

" In the Orthodox East the doctrine of redemption is linked up with the Incarnation of Christ and deification; it is not viewed in judicial terms like in the West. The consequences of the fall was man (represented by Adam) was separated from God due to his own free will in choosing that separation because he desired to be 'like God' as he was tempted by the serpent (satan) to believe. His communion with God was broken.


(I've done the highlighting. ) That's where the "gibberish" gets into high gear. (I don't know another word that would express my feelings and still not be offensive to you. Sorry about that.)


I've never felt the need for "redemption." Expressed in MY own words up above: " I hope I never lose my childhood innocence. You're certainly not going to take it from me.


"The consequences of the fall was man (represented by Adam) was separated from God due to his own free will in choosing that separation because he desired to be 'like God' as he was tempted by the serpent (satan) to believe. His communion with God was broken. "


My reaction to that? Expressed in MY words up above: " And, if you want someone to explain just exactly .....ask some crazed goat herder who's been out in the scorching hot sun too long. Some unknown wandering around in the desert a few thousand years ago. "


"his own free will" Expressed in MY words up above: "Free Will is an Illusion.

You do "believe" in the laws of physics, don't you?"


I could continue, point by point, but, you get the idea of my reaction to your words. I can't agree with some of your most basic premises. Once more, Expressed in MY words up above, most of what you say ....: "People never use the phrase, "begs the question", in its original intent. It's a type of logical fallacy. "


Thank you.


Hay

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"Salvation is not the once saved, always saved theology believed by some Protestants, rather salvation is a continual process by where man is being perfected through Christ through repentance (confession) and the Eucharist (the sacrificial body and blood of Christ). Salvation is a lifetime struggle against the passions by which man is controlled that takes place in degrees as he is perfected and brought back to his original state as created by God in His own image and likeness. This is why many become monastics in the Orthodox Church. Monasticism makes no sense in Protestant theology or to a secularist. .


Take God out of the equation and you're starting to talk like Buddha. I think it's been suggested that Christ, whoever he might have been, would have been aware of the teachings of Buddhism. I have found some "comfort" in reading some Buddhist writings. I don't get caught up in the reincarnation part, but I'm drawn to the idea of ways to deal with, " a lifetime struggle against the passions by which man is controlled."


To bring it close to home to you, "Anger" is one of those "passions by which man is controlled."

I just want nothing more than to be able to enjoy THIS LIFE. Anger just gets in the way. That kind of thinking, I can relate to.



I'm about to enter a "Holy Week" myself. Nonstop dancing this week and so I'm winding down my presence here on this thread and on HT for a while. I'm still around, but I can't spend so much time with you.


Thank you, again.



Hay


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haydayhayday

It's hard to break away.

"The basic doctrines of early Buddhism, which remain common to all Buddhism, include the four noble truths : existence is suffering ( dukhka ); suffering has a cause, namely craving and attachment ( trishna ); there is a cessation of suffering, which is nirvana ; and there is a path to the cessation of suffering, "

Or, as one of my spiritual leaders expressed it so elegantly.

Zorba:

"Life is trouble. Only death is not. To be alive is to undo your belt and look for trouble. "

I love Zorba. The closest to a godlike person I've ever known.

Lay down your Bible and go get the movie, Zorba. Lots of inspiration there.


Zorba Wisdom



All this heavy talk. Zorba brings me back to THIS life. The only life I know.

Hay

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katrina_ellen

"However I also see souls on this thread that are genuinely seeking answers. "

Tilly, if you read this, where do you see people seeking answers? Just curious because this thread is reading like most political threads on HT to me, both sides are dug in.

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texasranger2

Katrina----Its called "witnessing" aka proselytizing.

hayday---what do you mean by free will? I have trouble understanding how a person such as yourself who places such a high value on freedom of speech would say free will is an illusion so I want to know what you mean when you say that. Seriously. I'm not attacking you. I've done a lot of thinking about free will trying to understand it from an Eastern perspective. The influence of Augustine on Western culture concerning free will is rejected by the Eastern church.

That video is the very epitome of freedom ---- free will. "I am what I am and thats all that I am" as said by Popeye illustrates the same idea---free will.

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katrina_ellen

Hay, I've seen Zorba - is that where you learned your dance moves?

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"hayday---what do you mean by free will? I have trouble understanding how a person such as yourself who places such a high value on freedom of speech would say free will is an illusion so I want to know what you mean when you say that. Seriously. I'm not attacking you. I've done a lot of thinking about free will trying to understand it from an Eastern perspective. The influence of Augustine on Western culture concerning free will is rejected by the Eastern church.

That video is the very epitome of freedom ---- free will. "I am what I am and that's all that I am" as said by Popeye illustrates the same idea---free will.

Free will, to me, means, I suspect, the same as it means to you. I doubt that the meaning, in itself, is where we'd disagree.

In quick and simple terms, either I "believe" in a "spiritual" universe or I "believe" in the laws of chemistry and physics. That's it in a nutshell.

If I put a kettle of water on to boil for tea in the morning, it will boil. Water obeys the laws of physics. I have yet to see it not happen. If I pray for the water to boil, it never seems to work.

I'm really not so much different, in essence, than that.

What's not to understand?

"I yam what I yam", to me, means, "I was born this way."...the rest is just an unfolding not much different than the unfolding of my Hydrangea buds that I overwintered and now are coming back to life. I've cut them open in the bud stage before and, yes, the flower is there, waiting for an opportunity to blossom.

(To remind you, I'm getting busy with my life so I may not respond so frequently for a while.)


Edit: I'm not at all alone in thinking this way. Go to google and search for Free Will is an Illusion or something like that.

Hay

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haydayhayday

Katrina:


"Hay, I've seen Zorba - is that where you learned your dance moves?"


No, not at all. What I love about Zorba is his attitude toward life. Go look at some of his quotes that I linked to up above.


In our attitude toward THIS LIFE, the only one I can see, we're "kindred spirits".


I'm always saying, and it's true, "I don't dance because I want to; I dance because I have to."


Hay

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haydayhayday

A little footnote.

I've seen, but I can't track it down right now, that the idea behind "I yam what I yam..." from the cartoon creator stems from, (or may have stemmed from), the Biblical quote from God to Moses that goes something like, " I am that I am".

I'm not taking all of this very literally.

Hay

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katrina_ellen

Hay, I can understand the dancing, its a creative outlet as is the gardening. I like to create art, and I really get on another plane of existence when I am doing it. It's tapping into the creative part of the brain and having an outlet for it.

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texasranger2

I'm putting on layers of gesso myself and have to wait for each coat to dry so I'm filling in time. To have a discussion about free will you'd have to first discuss if there is such a thing as right or wrong, good or evil. If people don't agree on that, there is no point discussing free will.


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katrina_ellen

TR do you paint?

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texasranger2

Yes.

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haydayhayday

Texas:

"To have a discussion about free will you'd have to first discuss if there is such a thing as right or wrong, good or evil. If people don't agree on that, there is no point discussing free will."

(I'm getting ready to head out for the evening. You're going to be on you own for a while.)

I don't see why you'd say that.

I'd counter by saying,

If there is no such thing as free will, then the idea of good or evil, the idea of right or wrong makes no sense at all.

Hay

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haydayhayday

I love the arts.

In the eight grade, I won first place in the yearly art contest.

I love science.

In the tenth grade, I won first place in the county-wide Science Fair competition.

Me and Leonardo: kindred spirits.



Hay

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catkinZ8a



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texasranger2

Hay, Congrats on your win in 10th grade. I look at art more from the 'Dirty Jobs' perspective (remember that show?). What I mean is -- its not all fun. Unless you are rich, art is a dirty, labor intensive occupation for little pay involving a lot of hard work, tedium, lonely hours, late-nights, frustrations, technical difficulties and little time off if you want to keep your nose above water. Its made even worse in the computer age where people expect results quickly. People tend to glamorize art probably because many artists like to play the snob and talk "gibberish" as if they are 'high-brow' philosophers; they often sit in coffee shops socializing and pontificating more than working. I'm a pragmatic work-a-holic and have no patience with that type.

Yea, I can see you bonding with Da Vinci as your man for the mix of art and science. Makes sense and it fits. I'm not into science unless its something like the history of medicine or scientific discoveries and I'm terrible at math. I mean embarrassingly terrible. If we are talking Renaissance, I'd take Michelangelo over Da Vinci any day. My interest is religious art and icons.

PS

Came back to add I can't dance at all, never could and never have. I can't sing a note either.

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katrina_ellen

TR, when you look at the majority of the lives of the masters, it is pretty sad. There are a lot of artists on sites like Etsy, but I would wager it is more of a hobby than a career. I know someone who paints and draws for her own original artwork for her home and for friends. I do know one person who works for Disney as an illustrator and he makes a good living, he seems very happy in his job, lucky dog.

Hay, sounds like a gift you have if you won two awards. Not everyone can draw, I had an art teacher who said she can teach anyone to draw but I don't believe that.

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AITG

Everyone can draw. They just don't like the results of their work when they see other people's works who've been at it longer. Like anything, with practice, one gets better at what they are attempting to do.

I like to joke with folks who say they can't draw by asking if they can write. When they say "yes", I ask them if their A looks like an A and their B looks like a B, and go on to explain that they are perfectly capable of drawing letters, which is to say that they can draw even if they think they can't.

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katrina_ellen

When I look at Michelangelo's work I see a gifted person who has a rare talent. Not everyone can write either, just like not everyone can sing. Sure everyone can write, draw or sing, but the results vary greatly. Practice helps but I believe you need a natural ability to really excel.

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texasranger2

Katrina. I don't draw great but I manage well enough to get by with some 'crutches' I've come up with. What I mean is I can't draw cartoons, free-hand with flair or invent things or draw from my head like some people can but I can make anything look very real if its sitting in front of me or if I use photography. My husband can draw from his head. I used to be a fashion illustrator in a photorealism style back before the days of computers and digital printing when newspaper ads were the thing using pastel pencils and the regular stick pastels on sandpaper. I went through endless packets of polaroid film shooting models who worked at the store. I started drawing trompe l'oeil pastels in various stages of wear onto the drawing close to my signature and sometimes would find myself trying to pick them up when I was putting the pastels away and it always made me laugh. It was kind of signature joke of sorts because people always asked me if I was using oils. You can actually get extremely fine details with pastels if you make it dense enough.

The trick is learning how to see and studying the way light hits a subject. My husband would never have the patience. I say together we make a well rounded artist and we compliment each other. He is good at design which is something I struggle at. I found sculpting to be much easier than drawing but I haven't done any in quite a while. My husband is good with a computer, photoshop etc while I am nearly illiterate, I have no patience in learning. I don't know what I'd do without him. I miss the good old days before computers but he doesn't. I hate technology and what it has done to us as a society. I'm a bit of a luddite there.

Practice is important but learning how to see is just as important. Today all my work is in egg tempera + pigments in the Byzantine style on rabbit skin glue gessoed panels. I've got one more layer of gesso to apply and then I'm finally finished.

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katrina_ellen

TR, I just discovered pastels, I love the effects but didn't think you could get it detailed enough for trompe l'oeil effects, I have only tried that with paint. I used the pastel pencils and the sticks but didn't know fine detail could be achieved. Wow, who knew-a fashion illustrator. That must have been exciting. I have never heard of egg tempera or rabbit skin glue gessoed panels. Wish I could see it, it sounds super cool. Its a lot of work but when I am doing it, I hate to use the word zen, but it is something that allows me to just be in the moment. I am signed up for a colored pencil class and hoping to see what effects can be done with them. I purely do it because I enjoy it and it is helpful to me when I am going thru some difficult times to get out of my head.

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AITG

" I hate to use the word zen"

I've heard it referred to as being "in the zone".

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AITG

"Today all my work is in egg tempera + pigments in the Byzantine style on rabbit skin glue gessoed panels."

Most impressive!

I know it's asking a lot, and I'm prepared for "no" as an answer, but could you share an example of your work?

I haven't heard of egg tempera since my school days(and yes I had you pegged as an oil painter, but boy am I happy to be wrong!).

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texasranger2

zen.

I have what I call the thousand yard stare. It comes after hours of tedium or trying to work out a problem that seems insolvable.

My favorite is to pull weeds when I need to clear my head. Thats when I can really zone out. I'm too busy concentrating when I'm painting or drawing. Sanding boards is useful for zoning out. Laying on gold leaf is another 'zoner' along with polishing and embossing except embossing gets painful in the back after a while.

Pastel pencils are much faster than colored pencils. I used to do a lot of illustrations in Perma Color pencils which are waxy. The pastel pencils were Carb-Othello. I had 2 of the big sets but lots of the fashion stuff was done in black, white and grays on gray textured pastel paper so I was always buying those and using them down to the nubs. I burned up a lot of electric pencil sharpeners. One day I discovered the pastel sandpaper and that goes quicker which was good because I was always on a deadline to get the ad in.

Fashion Illustration wasn't exciting. Working in fashion is STRESS-FULL.

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texasranger2

AITG

Most people don't know what you are talking about when you say egg tempera. It predates oils. I haven't done oils since college but I did three large wall murals in oils a few years ago. Here are some recent examples in egg tempera:





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cattyles

Those are really beautiful, TR.

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Tilly Teabag

texasranger2

“Good for you. Everyone loves a busybody.”

I wasn’t aware that it was your thread. Where do I pay you to get in?

Seriously, Texas, my point stands. Christians are supposed to be nice to unbelievers, you know Jesus told us to be known by our love.

Im not always nice, I’m a work in progress.

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Tilly Teabag

Hayday, regarding your debunking my trolley/baby miracle, it was a large car park, single level with, at that time of day only two cars in it besides hubby’s van. There was a slope down to the fence a long way off, half way down there was a slope up towards the left, ending in a trolley bay bordered by steel rails and just wide enough to fit one trolley at a time.

How do you explain it parking itself in there gently with bubby enjoying the ride? Do you believe in ghosts?


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sableincal

Beautiful work, TR!

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AITG

Byzantine indeed!

Immaculate work. Really clean edges.

Thank you so much for sharing! :)

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Tilly Teabag


katrina_ellen

"However I also see souls on this thread that are genuinely seeking answers. "

“Tilly, if you read this, where do you see people seeking answers? Just curious because this thread is reading like most political threads on HT to me, both sides are dug in.”

Hi, Katrina, I see a couple of people here asking genuine questions about God and Jesus without trick or malice. That’s good enough for me. Even if there was some kind of nasty in it, I’d see the enquiring mind beneath. Humans are always searching for meaning in this world, if we have the answers we should respond kindly from the heart.

Thank God in the West we won’t be persecuted to death for doing so.



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Tilly Teabag

Ziemia(6a)

"Dont think I believe in luck. Maybe probability, IDK. Miracles, definitely."

“So those folks who got crushed by the fallen crane in Seattle - that was a miracle?”

I don’t know that tragedy, Ziemia, but I also believe in workplace safety laws, unions, and independent workplace inspectors.

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heri _ cles

"Many Christians in America have been standing still, not realizing
they too have been sinking into the stinking mire of the secular
culture, aiding and abetting its moral decline through compromise and
silence due to their desire for material comforts and political gain.

History has shown that Christianity thrives in persecution. We have
gotten to the point that the reality of the situation is now impossible
to ignore. The time has come to fight back with all we have and stop
cooperating with the madness in a country where God-fearing people
living Christian lives of decency and common sense are now slandered as
"deplorable" and "extremists".

--------------------

Quite a rant (on top of other rants here) justified with mounds of pseudo-intellectual bulsh1t. That final sentence was telling. I was trained by my parents to detect bulshit when someone overreaches, and the Right Wing "deplorable" talking point lit you up.

There is a lot of arrogance in religion.

"I can deal with the exclusivity of Christianity. Every religion has a degree of exclusiveness. But to suggest that 1 out of 4200 religions holds all of the truth and the key to salvation is not only arrogant, it is spiritually narcissistic.

It is spiritually narcissistic to believe that a single religion is applicable for 7 billion people.

It is spiritually narcissistic to believe it is your God-ordained responsibly to project your beliefs upon others in the hopes of conversion.

And it is spiritually narcissistic to believe that you are a part of a group of like-minded individuals who holds the key to humanity’s salvation.

I don’t believe that is salvation. I believe that is teetering the lines of cultism.

And as much as I want to believe that this is just a small minority of Christians, I know that’s not true. I know the average Christian believes that anyone who is not a follower of Christ is doomed for an eternity in Hell. And why wouldn’t they? It is a core belief of Christianity.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”, answered Jesus

I think that’s why I subconsciously struggle maintaining relationships with staunch Christians. That is a dilemma that I have yet to remedy. Who wants to be friends with someone who believes that you’re half-full and hell-bound anyway, right?

Again, our religious views are indicative of geography, culture, and upbringing. I didn’t objectively choose Christianity as my religion of choice. That decision was made for me. And chances are, that decision was made for you too.

As if we didn’t already have enough precursory redlining that determines our quality of air, water, health, safety, and education. We can now add salvation to that list of amenities — since apparently Christianity is a religion of privilege and proximity that not everyone will be afforded. For that reason, I morally object. "


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heri _ cles

The church is a sacred space where everything evokes a sense of awe,
spirituality and holiness to draw man to God. An other worldliness
exists in the church that is separate and distinct from the earthly
world."

That bothers me on several levels....but anyway, I am glad that you admit that places of worship are designed to create the impression that the super- natural is real. It's absolutely frightening for kids in there ....and that makes them ripe for indoctrination/.

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Ziemia(6a)

Tilly, would have been easy to find out about this - guess you are not that interested in what occurs here. ("“So those folks who got crushed by the fallen crane in Seattle - that was a miracle?”")

Your response is one easy way to avoid supporting your position.

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katrina_ellen

TR those are absolutely gorgeous, I see all the work that went into them. My favorite is Jesus on the cross, they are very stylized but have a realism to them as well. I would eventually like to do some work that's inspiration is in the Bible. The egg tempera really produces rich color. Thank you for posting them. You mentioned the "art crowd" in an earlier post, I found as well that there are a lot of egocentric people in the arts, don't know why that is. I wish I had time to sit around coffee shops and play artist, alas, I have to pay the bills.

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katrina_ellen

"It is spiritually narcissistic to believe that a single religion is applicable for 7 billion people."

Wow, never heard that before. Narcissism is about manipulation, lies and deception for starters. People who evangelize are doing so to love others by telling them of the gospel, not self-promotion. Would you think of teaching the laws of gravity as scientific narcissism? If we believe what the Bible says, we are called to share the gospel, we take His Word as truth and not deception.

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texasranger2

Tilly---"Christians are supposed to be nice to unbelievers."

I'm not "nice". I've never really been nice, not in the sense you are talking about. According to many nice people I'm "too blunt" which is definitely considered not nice. I am argumentative which is also considered not nice. I've been told since I was young that I lack tact, another not nice feature of my personality. I've been called a scrapper, which is not nice.


I taught an art class once and I was told I was too strict and exacting which is of course not nice.

I am the same person whether I am around "unbelievers" or believers.

Growing up, my own mother often said I was not nice like my sister---"why can't you be like her, she doesn't argue with everything?" She was (and still is) a good liar which is something I could never manage and if I did I'd fess-up immediately. Still, she was the nice one. She didn't get in trouble as much as me and often accused me of getting us both in trouble due to "my big mouth".

To be honest, I find nice people boring which is why I hate things like wedding showers or baby showers. It strains my face keeping that polite smile on it. Its stressful. I have so much trouble being nice as all these inappropriate remarks want to come out of my mouth. My sister tells me I always say inappropriate things. She, never does and likes to use me as a foil to contrast herself against. Because, she's nice and everyone agrees.

I'm probably going to hell in a hand basket for not being nice. My dad will probably be there to greet me because he was the same way, he never thought I wasn't nice. My mother and sister will be in Heaven because they are both very polite, nice and appropriate-- even when they talk about how bad everyone else is and how victimized they are by the not nice men they married and the people they work with.

Later I'm going to get my Bible out and check the concordance for the word nice so I can work on myself.

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haydayhayday

Incredibly nice work you do, Texas.

Thanks for sharing with us.


Hay

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haydayhayday

Talking about art....

I love it and spend my fair share of time touring museums.

I'm impressed with how much "great art" depends on "great technique" which, I suspect, takes a lot of failed effort to achieve. Each step takes your art to a "higher" level.

I know that you're supposed to stand back when you view art, but, after doing that, I always stand very close. It's in the details...











Art is more than just inspiration. A lot of work and effort is needed to make it look so effortless.



Hay

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haydayhayday

Tilly:

" How do you explain it parking itself in there gently with bubby enjoying the ride? Do you believe in ghosts?

For sure, I don't "believe" in ghosts.
" How do you explain it parking itself in there gently with bubby enjoying the ride?

You turn to "God". I turn to Science.

https://www.google.com/search?q=jesus+in+toast&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS4vWn1vrhAhVqs1kKHeP_DycQ_AUIDigB&biw=1440&bih=753

I couldn't find a number of how many pieces of toast are made in a day or a year, but it must run in the millions or billions. After you do a billion or so, you're almost certain to find Jesus.



Some people are more prone to see Jesus than others, too.

https://www.livescience.com/24814-why-we-see-jesus-face-in-toast.html

" Humans spend so much time looking at each other that it's perhaps no surprise we see faces where they're not — on trees, clouds, the surface of Mars and, of course, toast. But some people tend to see faces more than others and a strong belief in religion or the supernatural may be the culprit, a new small study suggests. "

Which is why I said to you:

" Now that you can see, with your own eyes, a very plausible, reasonable, scientific explanation of your "miracle", I'm curious:

Is your "faith" a little less certain now?

I doubt it.

The probability of something strange happening is essentially certain. Those are the stories we hear about. Go to youtube and search for "close death encounters". Miracles or just Probabilities?

Sometimes you get lucky.

https://www.msn.com/en-xl/europe/videos/mom-chases-down-son-in-runaway-shopping-cart/vi-BBWdr7G

(I love that video. Complete with awe inspiring spiritual music!)

Hay

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texasranger2

Hay---thanks for saying it was NICE.


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haydayhayday

Uh, oh, I hope I didn't choose the wrong word again.


How about stupendous?


Hay

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texasranger2

No no no!!!! You must have missed my post I'd just written addressed to Tilly who says I'm not nice. I agreed, I'm not nice. Really, I'm not.


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haydayhayday

"No no no!!!! You must have missed my post I'd just written addressed to Tilly who says I'm not nice. I agreed, I'm not nice. Really, I'm not. "


Oh, good, you had me worried there for a second. I may have seen Tilly's comment, but, knowing me, I didn't focus on it.


You do great, stupendous work!!!!!!!


Hay

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texasranger2

Thank you.

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haydayhayday

" I'm not nice. Really, I'm not. "

Nice enough to come back and explain to me what I got wrong.

Hay

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texasranger2

Yea, I can be nice in a pinch. I'll take honesty any day over nice.

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haydayhayday

Nice people aren't usually that interesting.

I think I've managed to raise obnoxious to an art form.

A work in progress.

Hay

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AITG

Well like I said to Cattyles in another thread out there somewhere, it takes a friend to let you in on an error on your part. Times like those, we appreciate honesty immensely.

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dirtygert(5-NY)

TR, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed your "not nice" missive above. I often find you a little too militant for my taste --- which is my problem not yours by any means so don't take offense. Ofttimes, I am on the other end of the spectrum from your comments, sometimes am of a like mind, One thing I do respect is the time you take to frame your opinions in a post. Whether anyone agrees with your words or not, we should all appreciate the time and thought taken to deliver them.

As a personal aside, I especially got a chuckle out of you finding "nice" people boring like at baby/wedding showers. I do, too. But I paste a smile on my face, go and say/do all the right things. And, once I clear the venue, I take a huge, cleansing breath and say to myself "I should get an Academy Award for that performance."

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texasranger2

hayday---I can relate to that. What is the driving force? Maybe its the existence of so much absurdity and earnest BS posing as straight faced-seriousness everywhere that the only relief comes from seeking a kindred soul out there to desperately ask "Am I the only one who noticed that or am I just crazy?"

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texasranger2

dirty-girt----- its very hard for me to read people on a forum like this where I can't see facial expressions and get people mixed up. I can't tell you how many times I've mixed people up thinking a person posting is the one who irritated me recently (to my embarrassment) or just generally misread their comments and later realized when I read something else they write.

A self-lecture in the car before hand along with big thick roll of duct-tape is a handy thing to have in situations like wedding showers and the like. I'm utterly stressed in those situations when all kinds of extremely inappropriate comments come to my mind. Maybe its a way of dealing with the boredom but it gets dangerous if I start talking because I'm nervous in those situations and things spill out.

I have a tendency to go home and after I've settled down from the case of nerves I always get around too many people and play judge and jury on myself cringing in embarrassment ---"I can't believe I actually say that!". There is less excuse here because its a writing format but, to my credit, I've made several long posts I would never think of actually pushing the submit button on. Still, I enjoy expressing my honest opinion and thats satisfying.

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haydayhayday

Texas, after I've had my cup of coffee, I can see that while I was busy typing away, you managed to slip in with your post about nice. I had completely missed it until just now.

It's a miracle, I think we can all agree, that I happened to choose "nice" in my next post addressed you. Especially since stupendous makes so much more sense.

Hay

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texasranger2

Nah, nice try but I don't buy the miracle theory. Most likely a koinky-doinky (coincidence).

On a serious note too many people claim any unexplainable event, freak of nature or bit of luck or good timing etc are a miracles which cheapens the idea of miracles which I do believe in. They make a laughingstock of Christianity with their pieces of toast or being in the right car at the right time or whatever....

However, I've read some things that are simply not explainable, which go against natural law, which is what a true miracle is.

Calling every event that works out to your benefit a miracle is on par with horoscopes. It displays a need for proof and often its just a case of ego-centric thinking and making God into your own image.

I like Hamlet's line: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Its been over-quoted to the point of meaninglessness in peoples attempts to call anything unusual a miracle, nevertheless, I agree with it.


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haydayhayday

Texas:

"However, I've read some things that are simply not explainable, which go against natural law, which is what a true miracle is."


I've got to run and so I may not see your response for a while, but, "read some things"?


I can "write some things" that are simply not explainable, which go against natural law, which is what a true... "myth, lie, misunderstanding, propaganda, legend, tall tale"... is."


Hay



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haydayhayday

You ever do any hallucinogens?


Hay

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texasranger2

No. I used to smoke cigarettes but finally quit and I do drink a lot of coffee. Other than that, I'm perfect.

Maybe the difference between you and me is as simple as you don't want to believe and I do want to believe. I can't stand the idea of an empty universe with no meaning or purpose. A world that came out of nothingness where there is no God is not only impossible for me to swallow intellectually, its also depressing, lonely and dark. It makes me think of Frankenstein's man-made monster who was tortured, alone, unloved and abandoned. Did he have a soul? No.

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Tilly Teabag

Anyone that finds being nice stressful may have high blood pressure, anger management issues, or both.

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elvis

"Easter worshippers"? What in the world?

It's so disappointing when formerly bright people lose it. What happened to them: drugs, alcohol, dementia, what?

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heri _ cles


I can't stand the idea of an empty universe with no meaning or
purpose. A world that came out of nothingness where there is no God is
not only impossible for me to swallow intellectually, its also
depressing, lonely and dark.

Buckle up buttercup.




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Tilly Teabag

Always good to keep up to date with one’s blood pressure checks, I find.

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katrina_ellen

The word "nice" to me sounds like minding your manners. I prefer the word "kind", as that speaks more to the heart attitude. I would rather a person not get on my bumper and try to push me down the road, but the person who gives adequate space, to me that is kind. Or the person who will hold open a door, I appreciate those things.

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Ziemia(6a)

TR, outside of your views on religion, I find much to agree with you on.


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haydayhayday

Texas:


"No. I used to smoke cigarettes but finally quit and I do drink a lot of coffee. Other than that, I'm perfect."



Hallucinogens are a whole other category than coffee and cigarettes. I mention them to suggest to you that any notion of "reality" can get super bent with just a bit of a change in the chemical brew that we are. If you were to be living in a color blind world of black and white, you would never see the wonderful world of color that's there. It's that kind of change in your perception that I'm alluding to.


Just what is real? We have no clue.


We really know nothing in the grandest scheme of things.


Hay





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haydayhayday

Texas:


"Maybe the difference between you and me is as simple as you don't want to believe and I do want to believe. I can't stand the idea of an empty universe with no meaning or purpose. A world that came out of nothingness where there is no God is not only impossible for me to swallow intellectually, its also depressing, lonely and dark. It makes me think of Frankenstein's man-made monster who was tortured, alone, unloved and abandoned. Did he have a soul? "


My first impulsive thought was that I don't know that I would disagree with you... I'd change a few words here and there....


Maybe the difference between you and me is as simple as you and I have no free will and you have to believe and I can't believe.


For the rest of your comment:


I find it very freeing and liberating to "believe" that there's no "God".


I look at the other creatures around me going about their daily business with hardly any concern about "right and wrong". They get up, they play, they sleep, they play, That same innocence that a little kid has and I imagine the same sort of "innocence" that you might attribute to mankind before the "fall" in the Eden.


Getting "God" out of the picture, getting this nonsense about "evil and good" and the "devil" out of the picture enables me to focus on enjoying THIS LIFE, the only life I know.


Nirvana is just one step away.


I'm not really saying much that is different than what I said before to you and one of your comments:


texas:

" There are people who do not think everything in life should be fun or about entertainment or their own amusement or their own personal interests. They strive to develop self discipline which, like any other discipline, is obviously difficult at first but eventually they cannot imagine their life without attending church and worshipping God. They discover that what the world offers is utterly empty by comparison. Hard to grasp I know but thats the way it is."


Hay:


"I've known a lot of people, religious or not, who are, quite frankly, not happy unless they're miserable.

Hard to grasp I know, but that's the way it is."


I'm willing to accept that you're "happy" and not "empty".


Me, too!!!


Just the way we are.


Hay

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queenmargo

Just the way we are.

That is it in a nutshell. We each believe what we believe. I like to keep things simple;)

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heri _ cles

Hay said:

Getting "God" out of the picture, getting this nonsense about "evil
and good" and the "devil" out of the picture enables me to focus on
enjoying THIS LIFE, the only life I know.

Acknowledging reality while ignoring religious superstition is a great way to live life.



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heri _ cles

Most Eastern Orthodox Christians in the US could not explain what the difference is between their religion and Catholicism other than the Pope, the day Easter falls on, and some other arcane religious details (and they don't care). As with other believers, it is all in ones head, no where else in reality. They, like other Christians are not stupid, they are just religious drones. locked in a prison in their mind.


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heri _ cles

Your conscious rejection of God makes you unlike the creatures you are
attempting to use to support your argument. Its a dumb argument which a
grade-school student could tear apart.

Please, just stop proselyting here, as you have been asked to do on numerous occasions in the past.

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ubro(2a)

To be honest, I find nice people boring which is why I hate things like wedding showers or baby showers. It strains my face keeping that polite smile on it. Its stressful. I have so much trouble being nice as all these inappropriate remarks want to come out of my mouth. My sister tells me I always say inappropriate things. She, never does and likes to use me as a foil to contrast herself against. Because, she's nice and everyone agrees.


I find myself liking this post :), and your artwork is wonderful. I have been thinking of experimenting with egg tempera+ pigment and have been reading on the history of it. Sourcing the pigments in Canada is a little bit of a stumbling block. Right now I do oil and oil pastel.

I taught an art class once and I was told I was too strict and exacting which is of course not nice.

I would have welcomed you as an art teacher, the ones I had were too syrupy for my taste, always the compliment. I like a good hard critique, it helps me grow.

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elvis

heri cles

Your conscious rejection of God makes you unlike the creatures you are
attempting to use to support your argument. Its a dumb argument which a
grade-school student could tear apart.

Please, just stop proselyting here, as you have been asked to do on numerous occasions in the past.

Then scroll on by, heri. When we can tell each other what not to post, short of common decency, we have a real big problem.

Suck it up, buttercup. Or as you said up thread: Buckle up buttercup.

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texasranger2

ubro

I can't find any of the materials I use locally. Check out Kremer Pigments online, they are based in Europe but have a store in New York, I usually order over the phone but you can order online. I also order from Natural Pigments (California) but mostly from Kremer. There is another called Synopia but I've never ordered from them.

I order my gold leaf and Japan size from Dick Blick. Blick has very good prices on brushes. You absolutely have to have good kolinsky brushes and you want one with a lot of snap. I've tried many and prefer Isabey. Mostly I use Isabey Kolinsky #6227Z size 3. The Kolinsky brushes were almost impossible to find a couple years ago due to some kind of government foreign trade technicality because of some new law with the fish, game and wildlife dept because they were considered animal hair. I was in a panic but fortunately it must have gotten straightened out because brushes are now available. I can't stress enough how important the brush is. The grit from the pigments wears out the point on the brushes and I usually wear one out in a single painting and order them 5 or 6 at a time.

I always say if you want a compliment, go get it from your mother. She will think anything you do is wonderful. People can be such cry babies. I have lost count of the number of mistakes and times I've sanded off all my work and started over.




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queenmargo

Elvis is right heri;)

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texasranger2

Ubro---just wanted to add. Pigments are much cheaper than buying prepared paints in tubes. You can mix them with any medium you want. The earth pigments are very inexpensive and a little goes a very long way. Once you get the ones you need you probably won't ever need to buy them again unless you paint for a living. You can even add them to house paints or concrete.

I make up 1/2 egg yolk with 1/2 water and a bit of vinegar in a bottle. Then just mix the pigment into a few drops in a one of those porcelain palettes with the little wells and add enough water to make it the right consistency. It is worse to have too much egg in ratio to the pigment than too little. You have to sort of experiment until you get it right but its a very forgiving medium.

I get my rabbit skin glue from Old Mill Cabinet Shoppe and I buy calcium carbonate from a ceramics guy in the art district here to make my gesso. It can be purchased from Kremer but I use large amounts because I'm usually working on large pieces.

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texasranger2

Oh no----- here I am proselytizing about pigments now. What next? Anyone not interested, just SOB.

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texasranger2

Ubro---just one more thing. There are some excellent demonstrations of using egg tempera on u-tube. I've watched several on iconography but of course you can paint any subject you want. The ones on iconography are very good in showing how to layer all the many layers which is how you achieve blending and there are several different techniques. I use the lakes but some use crosshatching. In other words, you don't have to waste time with a class in case you are thinking in that direction. You can also order prepared panels online. Look into panels for iconography and you will find various sizes. I make my own but another iconographer I know orders hers. Some have braces in the back.

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haydayhayday

(I may not get back to this thread in any significant way until next week. Just so you know. Enjoying my shallow life in a deep way.)


Texas:


"Other creatures are not sentient beings who contemplate right or wrong because they do not possess the ability to do so like humans. Other creatures would not be mocking Christianity or sitting there typing and defending their disbelief in God like you are doing because they would not think of God at all. Your conscious rejection of God makes you unlike the creatures you are attempting to use to support your argument. Its a dumb argument which a grade-school student could tear apart."


While I'm away, do you have enough will power to read something outside your comfort zone?

I've posted lots of links before to de Waal. Have you ever sat down and actually spent some time with him?


https://www.google.com/search?q=de+Waal+and+animal+morality&oq=de+Waal+and+animal+morality&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.9120j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


You say that, " "Other creatures are not sentient beings who contemplate right or wrong because they do not possess the ability to do so like humans."


How do you, without your Bible, "know" that? They may not "think" like you, but in observing their behavior, within their groups, they seem to act very "moral'. Go read about it.


Do you "believe" in evolution? Yes or No?

When did we get a soul? Did a part of our ancestry, the Neanderthals, whose DNA is in with mine, have a soul? What about my cousin, the Chimp? Did you read the latest about one of our ancestors?


https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqcAgKImpDQklTU1RvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1Nqd0tFUWlXcEpUd2pZQU1FVmlVYk51WkUycUFFaWN4TmpBc01EQXdMWGxsWVhJdGIyeGtJR3BoZDJKdmJtVWdabTkxYm1RZ2FXNGdWR2xpWlhRb0FBUAE?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen


Asians got some of that DNA in them, too.


In fact, some of the DNA in every cell in my body may be from a bacteria that got in there somehow.


https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/cells/organelles/


And human Chimeras? Do they have two souls?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)#Humans


You've got a lot of 'splaining to do.


I'm looking forward to it.


Hay





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haydayhayday

I keep thinking of a dog that a girlfriend of mine had.

That dog knew when he was "bad". I suspect every animal owner has seen "that look".

And the vet's dogs that would come with her when she visited my girlfriend's house? To this day, I am amazed at how little time it took for them to teach me this game where they drop a ball at my feet and then I'm supposed to throw it away. They were very smart.

When mankind leaves this earth, the crows are standing in line, waiting to take our place.

Hay

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texasranger2

hay---everyone has faith in something. What you have faith in offers very little in return. Seems rather clinical and detached to me and a bit nihilistic. Where is the meaning in all this? For what purpose? Why?

Do I believe in evolution? That is not a simple question with a simple pat answer. I do and I don't. I reject evolution as a philosophy. Do I believe the world was created in 7 literal days? No.

I have thought for some time that you have a very low opinion of humans. Every animal owner thinks their dog knows when its bad. Can the dog contemplate: I know I was bad; I have worked it out logically and even though I was bad today I will be good tomorrow. Can a dog think of tomorrow and plan for the day? Its another dumb argument. The dog is merely responding to a tone or a look. I used to have dogs, I know. None of them ever seemed capable of planning for the future.

I don't have any splainin to do. I'm not trying to convince you, you are trying to convince me and I'm just not buying it.

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haydayhayday

While I can appreciate your thoughts about me as a person...shallow, ignorant, hater of humans...and it doesn't get me riled up even for a second, it really is not DEBATE.

What part of basic evolution do you not believe? Did we evolve from more simple, "lower" creatures?

Is the Chimp my distant cousin?

"Where is the meaning in all this? For what purpose? Why?"

When you get it all figured out, let me know. Who says there has to be any "meaning"..;whatever that means?

Evolution? You're saying no?

Your God created man without all the evolution from the lowly worm crawling around in the mud millions of years ago?

You really don't accept evolution as modern science describes?

Hay

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haydayhayday

Hold on, I see that dumb Cardinal out there planning on me coming to give him his walnut.


Be right back.


Hay

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haydayhayday

I'm back. That Cardinal and my Chickadees have me well trained.


My chickadee plans ahead. The other day one kept coming back and back and back. He couldn't have been eating them that fast.


He was storing them away in a shrub.


Me, I'm more like the proverbial grasshopper.



Hay

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haydayhayday

Have you spent any time at all reading de Waal?


Hay

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haydayhayday

"I reject evolution as a philosophy. "


What does that even mean.


Evolution? Philosophy?

Evolution is a proven science. No?


hay

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ubro(2a)

Sorry to have gone off topic, but thanks TR I will take the plunge.



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texasranger2

Ubro---Don't apologize, this is one of my favorite topics. I can talk technique all day long. I'm transferring my drawing onto the board I sanded yesterday and then I will apply the dull base coats.

Painting in egg tempera is very different than painting in oils. Its more like drafting in a way- kind of a combination of water color and drafting. Its very exact which is why the brush is so important. My first job was drafting but I was never good at watercolors because I can't do 'loose' or spontaneous very good. Egg tempera goes on like watercolor only much more controlled, applying layer after layer working from dull earthy colors to bright. The final painting has a relief texture due to the building up of layers. That is how the effect of light seeming to come from within the subject is achieved. Its backwards from the way you approach oils where you work from light to shadow. In egg tempera you work from shadow to light.

I bought some orpiment, malachite and azurite stones from a rock shop and I crush them with a ball-peen hammer and then grind them into pigments. Much cheaper than buying them from Kremer. The earth pigments are inexpensive but some of the semi-precious mineral pigments are quite costly.

Egg tempera reminds me of alchemy, all of the materials are found in nature. Its a real escape from modernity.



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haydayhayday

Texas, one of your recent comments that I've addressed seems to be gone. I hope no one took it upon themselves to see that it was gone and I hope it wasn't you.


Are you out our conversation?


If not, Evolution, yes or no?


Hay

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texasranger2

Hay, I didn't delete any of my comments but noticed houzzz was on the blink.

The topic of evolution isn't that interesting to me like it is to you. What interests me more are the philosophical aspects which affect social, political and cultural issues such as the modernist ideology which proposes we are evolving socially or sexually or whatever other cause or idea people wish to support. You seem to be focused on it only from a science perspective as if you are trying to prove something or use it to support the idea there is no God which is a weak argument and not very interesting. Its a dead end discussion. When someone is so closed its like the Monkey Trial argument in reverse with the atheist playing the part of the religious fanatic who is the close minded one.

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