I think the only question people have to ask is how they feel about their choices. If they are not happy with their choices, they should do something about it ...it's never too late. If they are happy with their choices, then they need to think about why they feel odd discussing them with others? Have they literally gotten negative feedback? That would surprise me.

Mtn. I surprised myself by actually liking my job, but I think my own sense of snobbery (there, I said it,) always made me feel like I was underachieving there, since I had career jobs before and the pay was hourly. But there were friends of mine who would say that they would have loved to work at the store. They thought it looked like fun. I really did enjoy the engagement with customers and it was incredible training for my current job as a tour guide. The message was the same--treat everyone with respect and be friendly. Now that I think of it, I probably sabotaged my sense of worth all by myself.

Here's a nickel, Mtn. Now I'm going to try to re-frame my story. :)

I agree with you, mtn, but that doesn't stop the internal negative dialogue from surfacing on occasion. I know quite well in my head and in my heart that I've turned out just fine despite a formal higher education, but there is something that reverts to "odd man out", much like it did when I was different from others as a child, that rears its stupid head from time to time. It's just emotional self-doubt that isn't defining by any means, but is there nevertheless, and is something that requires proper processing.

I didn't attend college out of high school as did many that I know because I chose to marry very young and move to Southeast Asia. That in itself was quite an adventure and fodder for a number of good stories, so no - I don't think that people have given me negative feedback when finding out that I never went to college; in fact, they seem somewhat impressed that I had the courage to move so far away from home straight out of the chute. It helps to tell my story and highlight my differences, although there still lingers initially the feeling of being "weird" because I didn't choose as everyone else did.

mtn I really have it when people hit the nail on the head - and it's my head! ;-) You're right of course, it's about how we feel but even knowing that and knowing why isn't always enough to silence the inner monologue. which is not to say that I'm a mess of self-doubt and insecurities. But I have my moments. I used to get really mad at my mother-in-law for taking my sons to the Sunday school at her church on the rare occasions they were there for the weekend. I hated the idea that they were being indoctrinated. A girlfriend pointed out that those infrequent Sunday school visits wouldn't threaten me if I was confident in my decision not to take them to Temple. And there it was. Nail, meet my head.

Edited to add, everything is how you frame it. Spin, if you will. I just need a better spin.

All too often I think we are our own worst critics. Lord knows I do it to myself all the time.

I work in higher ed. I have a master's degree. I'm pretty darn proud of that - I worked hard to get it.

If you watch the Big Bang, you know how Howard takes a lot of grief from his PhD colleagues. I'm just here to tell you it's a little less funny in real life. ;)

But I'm getting older. And the cool part, for me anyway, is that the older I get the more self-confident I get. Hopefully by the time I pass away I've learned how to stop beating myself up.

@Bunny - maybe it is a west coast thing because I agree - alma maters never come up in discussion. But we, as a rule, don't go away to school. I'll bet less than 5% of grade 12 students go away for school. We have two universities in town and several smaller 2 and 4-year colleges so no need to do so.

Having said that - a friend of mine feels out of sync because she doesn't have a degree when in fact I think all of our friends do. But, we never talk about, it isn't who we are, blah blah blah, but she feels somewhat less because she doesn't have one. I don't get it and she says that we will never get it because we all have one.

She has four siblings all who have degrees - I think that's where the issue comes from.

That was a good question about describing one's "career" if they had the good fortune to be able to stay home and raise a family and run the household. Being one who never thought I had what it took to have a career AND a family I ended up with a career - just how it worked out. I always think people I know who were SAHM's were fortunate to be able to do that and I certainly don't look down on them.

I have a slightly similar thing going on when people ask me what I'm going to do when I retire. When I say whatever I want, whenever I want they look at me like I have two heads - like I should be doing something more significant than that. I'm kind of glad I can now say I'm going to work part-time at the small business we own.

blfenton, have you told your friend it is never too late? My older sister got her college degree when she was around 50. She had a good job, but her boss said that any more promotions were hindered by her not having that on her resume. She went to a local college, took evening classes and got her degree.

I got my undergrad and graduate degrees before heading into the workforce. When my sister was younger I would always tell to start working on her degree part time, but she always had excuses. I think she was afraid she wasn't capable of doing the work. When she got to 50 she had much more confidence in her abilities.

I had a friend years ago whose mother went to law school in her mid 50's.

chispa - I have a feeling that, like your sister, she thinks that she isn't smart enough. And yet she is well read and has very finely formed opinions on various matters.

3Katz, your post reminded me of this quote from the late, great Thurgood Marshall when he was interviewed by the LA Times after announcing his retirement from the Supreme Court at age 82:

Q: Do you have any plans for your retirement?

A: Yep.

Q: What are they?

A: Sit on my rear end.

Never one to mince words. Here's the whole article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-06-29-mn-1178-story.html

Ha - that's funny pink. I'd probably feel more comfortable saying something like that if I was 82 instead of 62.

I'm guessing DLM isn't referring to conversations among friends because that never comes up among my friends or acquaintances either. I find it comes up when meeting new people.

"Where do you work?"

"I'm retired."

"Oh, well what kind of work did you do before retirement?"

Exactly whatsayyou. My longtime friends know all my gory details. We're still in the newby phase in our new home, new state and meeting people is part of the ongoing process of settling in.... although I doubt I'll ever have the same sense of 'home'.

Not sure I follow. In this scenario, why would one answer "I'm retired" unless they retired from working some duration?

Interesting perspectives! I'll throw mine in the mix. When my children were small, I had a flexible job and had earned a master's degree. But people around here didn't talk about women's careers. It was almost frowned upon to have a career as a mother. I wasn't embarrassed to be working but most of my friends just talked about their families.

So, all these years, I've never really talked about my work much. In fact, just a few weeks ago, a male friend was sharing information about his wife's career, and the way he phrased it seemed to assume that I hadn't worked. I explained to him that I, too have worked continuously since before my kids were born. He was surprised--he never realized I had.

Regarding college education, most in my circle are college-educated (even the moms who never worked). Many professional degrees from prestigious colleges and universities, as well as your standard state schools. I've coached my kids on finding good fits for college and careers, and none of it has to do with the prestige of the school or the expected paycheck. Around here, the trades do very well but so many still believe that's beneath them. But when I look around my friends and my community, fulfillment in life has nothing to do with degrees (or lack thereof) or income. I know a lot of miserable people who look good on paper.

Mtn, "retired" to me suggests no longer working, be it paid or otherwise. It suggests freedom from responsibilities of paid or unpaid work in the form of raising children and running a household, or whatever ties that may bind. However, I realize that's a very subjective definition! ;)

Oh, that is interesting --- so in that sense, a SAH-parent is "retired" when they have an empty nest?

When I retire, this is exactly how I plan to answer "the question":

https://youtu.be/YyZfw2R3LMY

Fascinating perspectives! I do take a bit of exception to this statement:

"And while of course being a SAHM is the hardest job,"

Because honestly I do not believe that to be true. I think mothering babies, toddlers and very young children is incredibly hard. It's physically demanding, grueling work trying to keep brand new people alive before they have any cognition and while they are utterly dependent in every way ;).

However once kids are in school I don't think being a SAHM is the hardest job by any stretch of the imagination. It's a lot harder to parent your kids while you also work and manage the household, and that is what most working mothers do that SAH parents do not. I was able to work VERY part time hours for years before going back FT so having had the good fortune to see both sides, nope staying at home is as someone else said a very fortunate option.

I think any choice we make in life comes with trade offs. Once kids are grown and gone, women who didn't have careers may definitely feel a bit discomfited comparing themselves to others who raised equally wonderful kids and did it while working in a career. OTOH now that my career is winding down I find myself often regretful at how demands on my time and energy burdened what is actually in my view the most important part of my life--my relationship with my spouse.

I wish he had lived with a kinder gentler wife over the years. I wish he had not borne the brunt of my stress and weariness so many times when I felt so overwhelmed with taking care of everything and everyone. So I will be the one sitting next to the SAH mom who is embarrassed that she didn't work, feeling embarrassed because my working made me not as loving a wife as I should have been....or at least that will be our respective thought bubbles :)

Tying all this back into the original pointless banter: retirement feels like a chance to hit the reset button. Now that our kids are grown we already spend more time together. I'm really hoping and anticipating that once work is finally in my rear view that our time as a couple will grow richer and deeper as we relax into each other even more.

You never retire from being a parent - or at least I haven't and mine are 32 and 30.

And runninginplace's attitude towards SAH parents is why I would never tell someone I never worked. I am not nor have I ever been discomfited by my choices but I'm also not going to get into an ugly debate about my choice either.

I'm out of this discussion.

"You never retire from being a parent - or at least I haven't and mine are 32 and 30."

Adult children do not require the same energy as minors, and if they do something has gone very awry.

FWIW, being a SAHM does not on its own make one a kinder, gentler wife. On the contrary, there are many dynamics that take place when one parent stays home to raise children that can contribute to a very frustrating marriage.

In addition, many women (and I'm sure men, too) can believe they're simply temporarily putting their careers on hold to raise their families... yet when they try to return where they left off, that 10-20 year resume gap has left them behind and at a disadvantage. Most of my friends who have gone back to work after raising their families are either underemployed and not using their degrees, or they've had to return to school to get another one.

running I'm going to assume you didn't mean your remarks too be a slap in the face to SAH parents but will tell you it certainly cane across that way to me. Have you ever heard little kids little problems big kids big problems? I lived that for more years than any parent should have to with one of my boys. Hardest job in the world doesn't even begin to describe it. Far harder, less sleep, more worry than the birth to 15 of both my boys combined. So you can choose to believe it or not that parenting is hard work.

I think what running in place was saying was that many/most working women are parenting AND working. Not that parenting isn't hard work, but that is it even harder to have a job *on top of it*

That's a pretty binary way of looking at it, Mtn, that doesn't take into consideration the advantages of being a working parent. And there are many of those, too.

And the beat goes on....

There is no right answer here, only circumstances that either allow you a choice or don't. And once you have made your choice, it's all about framing the trade-offs.

My aunt tells everyone she is retired. I cringe for my cousins. Comparing caring for your children to performing a job seems wrong to me.

One of my dearest friends had to stay home because her income would never justify the costs of working (she's an academic in the liberal arts) and she says her children don't respect her as a result- a heart breaking perspective.

I have no doubt my friends who worked while bringing up their children had it harder than I did. And I have no doubt as to the economic benefit I brought to my family by staying home and managing my children and the household. My husband never had to so much as run an errand (his work was all-consuming.) His family time was spent with the children doing fun stuff.

The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. F. Scott Fitzgerald

I was a stay-at-home mom and then my children grew up. I got healthy again and now I'm a working close to senior. I can at some point maybe retire. I would not have chosen to stay at home as finances were horrific.

Rita that is very much the situation we were in. DH is a sole proprietor (with all that implies re responsibility, taxes, etc) and my added income threw us into a different tax bracket but didn't provide enough to cover my usual duties which always included being available to DH's business. So it was a constant push-me, pull-you about my working so as a result, I pretty much didn't. The mental benefits put other family elements at risk. I can't imagine my sons not respecting me for the choices we made and feel sorry for your friend if that's truly how it is. We all make the best decisions we can at any moment in time based on the information we have at that moment.

"I think what running in place was saying was that many/most working women are parenting AND working. Not that parenting isn't hard work, but that is it even harder to have a job *on top of it*"

Thank you Mtn, that is exactly what I meant. I'm not sure why people get so outraged at someone pointing that out, it has nothing whatsoever to do with disparagement. It's just a fact; if you are raising children and also working outside the home for pay, there is an extra level of working going on. It doesn't mean SAH women don't work. But they factually do not work at home and simultaneously at a job. Then too, I was RESPONDING to several SAH women who themselves said they felt uncomfortable in social situations when asked about their decisions to stay home.

As has also been pointed out couples and families make a lot of choices in how to live their lives, and most do so to try to create a happy and healthy environment for themselves and their family. That can take any number of forms and one thing I've learned is that there's no One True Way. One parent at home, both parents working, one parent working part time--it can all function well. Heck, in our family we went through quite a few iterations and ended up with two wonderful young adults with the parents still happily married. I call that a win for sure ;).

Unfortunately this is a split that drives so much anger. Anecdotally it seems to me that SAH parents seem to express a lot more anger and defensiveness about their choice, as evidenced by the reaction to my comments. As a parent who worked I'll share that it grates on me to hear a woman say she chose to stay home to 'raise my children'. Um, who exactly do they think raises children of working moms? I was a working mother and I'll confirm that I also raised my children for sure, and have the memories as well as the mental scars to prove it LOL.

Obviously we do ourselves no service to bash each other. That's not what I was doing, simply pointing out something I observe and think. If you disagree, that's ok. But getting deeply insulted and outraged-usually means there is something inside bothering someone, so if a comment on an online forum from a random stranger causes such a strong and intense reaction it would probably be good to consider why that is so. Mostly I shrug off things that don't apply to me or my life, and I'd hope secure and happy folks reading these conversations do too.

It’s depressing to me that The Mommy Wars are still being fought right up to and beyond the retirement years. Why can’t everyone just do their own thing without judging someone else’s choice?

I agree, Hhireno. 1990 called and wants its debate back.

I have always worked but would never make the claims above about what I did as a working mom vs. SAH parents.

Interesting discussion above! My husband is just heading into the SAHP game. We both know that at his age, if he chooses to go back to work in the next 20 years before retirement, he will face a serious disadvantage and perhaps not be able to earn very much. So we are considering him effectively retired from paying work, although leaving the door open for him to return as I don’t want him to feel trapped at home.

We considered the “what do you do” question and the lack of adult interaction as potential negatives. And the ability to manage the household and get Emmett off the rollercoaster of daycare sickness as positives.

Husband manages the household, does all the cooking and most cleaning. I’m hoping he finds it rewarding.

Among our friends staying at home is maybe about 25% of couples. And another 25-30% have one spouse with marginal or part time employment. I do think it is very difficult to have two inflexibly 9-5 or 8-5 working parents. We found it tough even just for a few months.

I anticipate my husband will have more free time when Em goes to school and preschool - hoping this means a clean house for me and health and happiness for him.

I enjoyed my time on maternity leave but I get pretty bug-eyed about 4pm on days I have Emmett to myself...I couldn’t stay home right now.

No reason to pass judgement on anyone for the choices they make. And what's "hard" for someone might not be considered "hard" for someone else. Everyone's situation is different. And no reason to take offense because someone else has a different opinion. However we are all human and at times somewhat fragile and sensitive.....

My DH is a SAHH (stay-at-home hubby - not dad since we don't have kids), and has been for many years. My earning capacity far outweighs his, so we decided early on that he would stay at home and be my domestic support system. We've been doing this for so long now that it seems perfectly natural and normal, although it's definitely not "the norm" and possibly those on the outside looking in don't understand it. (I'm beyond caring, truthfully.) It works for us. It's a tremendous help to me, and allows me to focus on my career rather than the day-to-day operations of running a household. Even without children in the home, there is always something that needs to be done, and DH also does volunteer work so stays quite busy. I realize we're fortunate to have this arrangement, and whenever I hear of a dynamic in which the woman is the primary breadwinner and the man takes on the lion's share of domestic issues, it makes me smile. Traditional roles are not a mandate, and I just like knowing that others have also found their niche outside the box.

In the spirit of pointlessness, i reinvented my centerpiece, now that most of the garden daffodils are drooping and had to be removed. I like this even better and moved it to my MBR mantle! I can tell my lilacs will be in in the next few weeks, cannot wait!

Well...if you take your kids to work with you every day, then yes...your job is more difficult than someone who stays at home raising their kids. 24/7 parenting is a tough gig. Also unpaid.

There is something odd to me about this popular controversy of "whose job is harder" for women. I am not sure I get the point of the discussion, except perhaps to educate those who don't fully appreciate the demands, rewards and importance of "unpaid work" to state it broadly. But that is not other women; i think all women totally get that.

It's men who sometimes have not "gotten" it.

Mtn, what a beautiful arrangement!! I'm so envious that you have flowers blooming. I'm just thankful that the snow is gone and the grass is mostly green. Trees are just starting to bud out - barely a hint of green with no leaves yet. A glorious sunny day though and I have the day off - woo-hoo!!

"My ex used to tell me that he was disappointed by my lack of ambition when the kids were a bit older."

Jojoco, this hit me so hard when I read it yesterday that I couldn't really respond. My jaw practically hit the floor.

Since I'm a bit incensed by his remark, I'll keep any thoughts to myself.

I'll simply say that I'm so glad you don't have to deal with any more comments like this. You seem like a lovely person living a very successful life...

I too bowled over by that Jojo! I am glad you used your natural ambition to add the x to in front of his name! Excellent call!

Pointless banter - our neighborhood, like most, require one to pick up dog poop when walking your dog(s). So why is it my neighbor two doors down refuses to pick up her dog's poop?! Even her housekeeper/Girl Friday/whatever she calls her doesn't carry a roll of bags. I've started taking photos. Seriously. Not doing anything with them, but it makes me feel better. LOL We don't take our girls to the circle often, but it is grass and sometimes we do. DH wants to pick it up with a stick, and toss in the woods, but I told him that is not our job and we are not going to spend the rest of our/her time living here picking up her poop. If I left ours, I am 100% positive she would call the HOA President, management company and/or send me an email. She is in her 70s, but capable of bending over, as is her housekeeper. I've thought about leaving a roll of poop bags at the guardhouse/in her mail cubby. The guards don't care for her and wouldn't tell.

In my "past life" (with the ex), there was a woman who lived two streets behind us who regularly allowed her dog to relieve itself on our lawn. Our house sat on the corner where she passed by on her daily walk. She never bothered to clean up after the beast. The ex would be incensed to be mowing the grass and come across "evidence" that the dog had recently visited -- and we were quite sure it was THAT dog, as we saw it happen on a number of occasions. After one such instance, the ex went outside and scooped the poop into a brown paper bag, folded it over, and waited. The next time he saw the woman walk by (with her son in tow), he met her on the corner, handed her the bag and said, "I believe you forgot this." Well, lemme tell ya, that woman was LIVID after she apparently went home and gave herself some time to think about what had transpired. She reappeared on our doorstep a few hours later, ranting and raving like a lunatic. She claimed that her child (who was probably 6 or 7) had been terrified half to death by my ex approaching her with a bag of poop, and claimed that he had, in effect, traumatized her kid for all eternity.

Needless to say, we were never invited to any of her backyard barbecues. (Which is probably a shame, as I'm sure her yard was lovely. Nothing ever pooped in it.)

Allison, my DH tells me that in his childhood neighborhood, a friendly little enclave in oh-so-polite Toronto, one neighbor did not clean up after his dog. One "victim" finally scooped it up with a shovel, and dumped it on the sidewalk (in front of his own house!) with a sign reading "Is this yours?" Hmm, perhaps it was more like "IS THIS YOURS?" It vanished and it never happened again.

IdaClaire, that's hysterical and sad.

bpath, I've thought about scooping it up and placing in the grass next to her driveway. If I knew when she wasn't home (and DH wasn't home) I would do! He's out of town next month, hmmm.

We are on two lots and on a corner/big common natural area (no one goes in). While only 4 houses on our street, many walk it but no one else leaves the poop. A couple of the larger houses are on more land and one has bronze looks plaques of a dog squatting and a "no" sign underneath. I'm not sure if our neighbor allows her dog to poop there.

This topic upsets me. In my case it's the neighboring dogs peeing on our grass. My DH tries really hard to have our front lawn look pristine. We don't appreciate the burn marks from other people's dogs.

I have a dog. And actually right now I am babysitting DD's dog. My dogs are trained to go in our backyard before heading out and when I walk them through the neighborhood on my way to the park, they do not go on other people's lawns.

When I catch people, I politely say, "Please don't let your dog go there." Just down one block and around the corner is a long street that is all wooded on one side. Your dog can go there!!!!

What I feel like saying is, "I think I'll take my dog up to your front lawn to pee!"

I may be repeating myself, but when I lived in upstate NY, there was a family with an elderly Great Dane around the corner from me. I was always finding giant piles in my front yard. I figured he walked the dog at night just until it pooped and then headed back home. It was right next to a no parking sign. Finally I put up a homemade sign with plastic grocery bags attached and gung it from the signpost. . My sign said "Not everything about your dog is beautiful." The nocturnal deposits in my yard stopped.

Our neighborhood has a path that cost a quarter of a million dollars to rehabilitate. On a pole near the path there's a box containing a roll of plastic bags. It works for dogs. Now if we could only figure out how to keep goose poop off the path...

Suero, that's a great idea but I doubt it would work with my neighbor. I am certain she thinks that task is beneath her.

eld6161, that would make me angry too. Sorry to upset you. The multiple signs one neighbor has look like this:

jojoco, 20 years ago I printed a sign on the computer and had laminate sheets at home already, so did that and put on a stake. I was able to stop someone from allowing their dog continue to poop in the bed around our mailbox.

I had a computer generated laminated sign hanging on the picket fence for a few years. Replaced it last month with this one:

https://www.dogpoopsigns.com/Parking-Sign/Oval-Designer/Sign/SKU-K-4560.aspx