Cabinetsmith Impressions - Pricing is: $8,072.93+tax, Canadian$ - $6067 USD

Urban Effects - Pricing is: $9,797.84+tax, Canadian$ - $7363 USD

Cooks Kitchen - it's going to be annoying having the garbage can separated from the sink. I foresee lots of spilled food on the floor between your island and sink.

Thank you, Cooks - this is great information!

Someone's going to take this kitchen and design a house around it.

How about Scherrs?

We price compare all the time and the information here is pretty off. For example:

Pricewise we find Wolf Classic and IKEA to be very close in price with the Wolf already assembled and a far better constructed cabinet. We do not sell Wolf but would rate it far above IKEA.

Fabuwood is about 20% above IKEA but also assembled, far better built, and it in fact does every customization more expensive lines do including color matching and custom widths. We order it this way frequently although I would not recomend the color matching for the price. Kitchen below is Fabuwood.

DuraSupreme we no longer carry and found serius problems with their custom frameless line and custom laminates which they do not even make themselves.

Main Line, note that only Cooks Kitchen and Design Loft gave an apples to apples comparison.

According to Cooks Kitchen, the Wolf version is over $1000 more. For many of us, that isn't a deal breaker but to some folks, every single dollar counts.

According to Cooks Kitchen, the Fabuwood is over $4000 more than the Ikea kitchen which is a big deal, even if it is preassembled. I can tell you when I was starting out I was more than willing to assemble and hang my own cabinets if it meant I was going to save $1000 (in 1987 dollars).

You mention both are far better built but you don't explain why. I'm all ears as to why you think either cabinet is better than Ikea, since I found Ikea to be quite good for the money.

@GreenDesigns - I would argue that I am not predudiced against frameless cabinetry or IKEA just more knowlegeable and experienced than most people on Houzz and so I understand the limitations of framless cabinetry and IKEA in particular.

Our company sells frameless cabinetry as well as framed. So we like using frameless cabinetry when contemporary designs call for it. And we rate cabinet lines we do not sell very well - if they are of good quality.

Our Kitchens designers have over 100 years of combined experience designing and selling most of the brands we rate.

For me personally, studing engineering at UPENN, owning and managing a construction company for 10 years that specialized in home renovations and kitchens and then designing kitchens for 25 years after that makes me more of an authority than many others.

We also show over 70 kitchen projects on our Houzz profile and you show none. And yes, we do come up well in Google, Yahoo, Bing, and Houzz searches, and it's because we are professionals.

You also say we don't carry many US brands. We in fact carry more US brands than imports. Including Jim Bishop, Brighton, Wellsford and others. There is no question that the best cabinetry available in the United States are US Custom and the higher end Semi-Custom lines. Just as there is no question that the best value in inexpensive cabinetry is in framed cabinetry assembled in US factories but with at least cabinet doors, drawers, and fronts being produced in plants in China. The new tariffs could level the playing field but until they do some things are just realities.

Mainline, if you want to participate, then do do so under the guidelines given above and send me the 2020 printouts. I ask that you keep the margins to industry standard 30-40%, and neither lowball or highball them. If you don’t want to participate, this is not the thread to claim your products are superior.

Scherrs declined to participate.

Main line kitchen design

can you please explain the limitations of frameless cabintery that you are referring to. And also the failure point of an installed Ikea cabinet box. I build framlesss cabinets 3/4" all around( top, bottom, sides and back) and use ikea cabinets as well which I make custom doors for. I have found none of these issues with either. I think after more than thirty years of doing this I can say others here are knowledgeable as well.

Cpartist and The Cooks Kitchen - Every cabinet dealer has different mark ups so even pricing the same parts list in the same cabinet line at different dealers 10 miles from each other could result in pricing 30-50% different. Location can also change pricing by equally large amounts. The same cabinetry in California or in Manhatan might be half the price in other locations. There are different cost multipliers for every 20-20 cabinet catalogue so even using 20-20 without knowing the cost multiplier is meaningless. Our 20-20 cost multipliers range from 25% to 45% of list price for the different lines we carry.

As far as explaing how cabinets are made and what makes a well constructred cabinet I have given links to explanations on our web site but many Houzzers like GreenDesigns object to links. You can go to our web site and research what we think and why.

It is really not complicated and makes no sense to believe that a cabinet with hinges and tracks connected to particle board with almost nothing holding it square would be as well made as a cabinet where the hinges and tracts are conected to 1 1/2" solid wood and where each face frame is screwed to each other face frame. Wall cabinets that hang on the wall holding the cabinet, heavy dishes and glasses, etc and have no solid wood hanging rail or 1/2" plywood back and only particle board secuing them to the wall are of course more likely to fail.

When psycologists actually name the the delusion of not being able to sensibly evaluate something you designed or created The IKea Effect it says something about Ikea enthusiasts. I included the Wikipedia link so that can't be considered self promotional.

Thanks Design Loftfor offering the Canadian pricing. That is super helpful and now I've discovered Cabinetsmith in Barrie. I've just sent the link to their site to a friend who is looking for vanities for a washroom reno. And I'll be checking them out in person for a hoped for kitchen reno at our cottage as well.

Also The Cook's Kitchen, thank you for taking the time to put together all of this information. I can see this being the type of thread all of us refer to constantly and refer other Houzzers to as well who come asking for comparisons. Great work and a wonderful example of Houzz at its best.

^^^delusional ;-)

Yep, somebody is definitely delusional. And it's not jdesign!

And alas, it seems a permanent affliction, as every thread title with the word "Ikea" in it triggers the same old response.

Slowly I turned . . . step by step . . . inch by inch . . .

Lol, Mark.

Seems Mainline removed his post, so most of the thread doesn't make any sense any longer. Oh well...

Figures. He couldn't take the heat in the kitchen.

As for Ikea, I sold my bungalow house back in 1993 after installing an Ikea kitchen 2 years earlier. My son still lives in that town and he tells me the person who bought the house and still lives there still has the same Ikea kitchen. Imagine her having such cr@p for so many years.

jdesign_gw - WELL DONE on that kitchen. looks GOOD!

@User - Just dropping in quickly to say that we did a kitchen renovation and only needed to replace a few cabinets and we went with Ikea. I had to match the paint and so I very lightly sanded the Ikea cabinets with random orbital sander and used high quality Benjamin Moore paint that they recommended. I love the look of brush strokes (i.e. hand painted) cabinets so that's what I did and they turned out great! - Also, thank you for this post! Most helpful!

Here it is for Shiloh Framed Traditional Line. Shiloh Flush Inset, Hanover door*, Maple or MDF door, choice of white paint (arctic, polar or soft). 1/2" plywood sides, finished ends are 3/4" thick, 5/8 thick drawer boxes with Blumotion full ext, soft close guides; 3/4" plywood shelves.

$11,310 w/ slab drawer headers

$11,310 w/ shaped drawer headers

$12,169 w/ 5pc matching drawer headers

*Note: Or choice of any other group A door. Total of 22 group A doors to choose from, including wide rail doors. Most doors are reversed raised panel. Add $888 for upgraded 3/4" thick drawer box.
Price based on 35% profit margin in southwest ohio.

Since this is a post comparing vs. Ikea, I'll include Shiloh's frameless line with the Metro SLAB style door in their TFL (thermally fused laminate) finish which is their best price point....and choice of gorgeous colors. Same layout, $8235 fully assembled. These cabinets can have finished ends in the same color....not a "blended" finished end nor are you required to attach a "gable end" (aka loose door attached). You can order any standard size in 3" increments and any custom size for a slight upcharge. Thermally Fused Laminates are available with matching edge, satin aluminum edge or brushed aluminum edge. Drawer boxes can be 5/8 or 3/4" wood dovetailed, simulated metal laminate or real metal box. Awesome choices and not as limited as IKEA.

CLICK HERE TO SEE ALL ECLIPSE MATERIAL FINISHES SHILOH ECLIPSE FINISHES

CLICK HERE FOR WEBSITE HOME PAGE Shiloh Frameless "Eclipse" Series

Pic Below is my display: Lower base cabinets are the Eclipse LAUREL TFL color in a horizontal grain pattern. Can also choose to do it vertical grain. The uppers are flush inset. Best of both worlds!

Following

Thank you SO much TKP for contributing!

Since I am just starting the process for a kitchen remodel, and was pretty much contemplating using IKEA cabinets, this has been very helpful.

What I want to know though is which of the various lines of cabinets quoted in this thread are most closely aligned with IKEA cabinet overall quality. I'm not planning on white shaker so am not trying to replicate that look. But, I just want to know in general the price points for cabinets that are comparable in quality to IKEA, I do realize that the need to either DIY or pay for someone to assemble IKEA comes into play when making final price comparisons. Are the IKEA cabinets more comparable in build quality and specs to perhaps mid-range already assembled or what level? Thanks.

Might as well finish out the Shiloh offerings! Their Aspect line is their 'step down' product.

Shiloh Framed ASPECT..Hanover door*, Choice of 4 door edge profiles, Maple wood, choice of white paint options, 1/2" particle board sides, finished ends add 1/4" thick wood veneer (stained) or painted mdf panel for painted finishes, 5/8 thick drawer boxes with Blum TANDEM edge BLUMOTION 7/8" extension with integrated BLUMOTION soft closing mechanism standard. Soft close doors.

$8254 - Partial Overlay w/slab drawer headers

$8543 - Full Overlay w/ slab drawer headers

$9307 - Partial Overlay w/ 5pc matching drawer headers

$9595 - Full Overlay w/ 5pc matching drawer headers

*Note: Or choice of any other group 1 door. Total of 7 group 1 doors to choose from, including wide rail doors. Sculpted drawers available at no upcharge,
Price based on 35% profit margin in southwest ohio.

CLICK HERE TO SEE PRODUCTS FROM ASPECT CABINETRY: ASPECT

Cook's, please extend belated best wishes for the New Year to Sophie. I, and many others, miss her terribly.

julieste, Thats a tough question but I'll try: IKEA is frameless....so any another RTA frameless line will compare to it pretty closely. Not sure if I know of any other RTA frameless. Other frameless factory assembledbrands will have pros and cons that you will need to research individually. Price, product availability and finish quality are the 3 most important factors. IKEA has limited sizes and offerings. I recently went to a home with an Ikea kitchen. The kitchen was L-shaped with an angular island. The ikea cabinets did not work that well on the island design as they tried to do a custom shaped angular island with frameless cabinetry. Parts of it looked shabby and awkward. Instances like this is where ikea could be a problem, especially for a DIY, inexperienced person. Ikea also has a PITA factor, limited sizes and I'm not sold yet on the quality of their finishes. I remember one ikea line had severe yellowing. The kitchen I recently saw, from a distance looked nice. I wondered why she wanted to remodel it. Then when I got up close, the finish had not held up very well and the island was poorly designed and assembled. Not the fault of ikea...but a good example of a DIY homeowner not aware of the design capabilities.

Answering the quality question requires a bit of an editorial, so bear with me. This is really long, so if all you care about is the bottom line pricing without any of the hundreds of other considerations that go into it, skip this.

——————

Modern cabinet construction is absurdly over engineered, for bragging rights and pride, not for functionality. If anyone remembers the old 50’s built in place cabinets, that still exist in many homes, you’d understand that no one “needs” 3/4” plywood box construction, dovetail drawers, and all of the complex wood joinery that have become buzz words to sell you things.

Those old built in place cabinets don’t even have backs or sides. The entire cabinet’s strength, and 80 years of existence, relies on the face frame. Most were nailed together, and had a few nailing blocks mounted to the walls. No screws, or glue, or fancy joints.

This is why many carpenters insist that face frame cabinets are “superior” Well, yes, if you’re looking to use a minimum of materials, for a budget job, using those old methods will do it. And it will be “strong”. It will just lack functionality and durability in the finish. That’s where we start to see the differences in price and usability.

How “strong” does something need to be? Even inexpensive 3/8” particle board sides faceframe cabinets will pass KCMA construction tests. They will last for decades, just fine, if the construction methodology used to create them is correct for the material choice used. This is the specs for plenty of “budget” cabinets, and it works well.

The functional wear differences in any framed cabinet are in the corner reinforcement for stability, the hardware used for glides and hinges, and the finishes. That’s where ALL of the money differences reside. 1/2” box sides do get you a bit sturdier box, without the corner supports or I beams being more critical. Furniture board vs plywood is functionally irrelevant and a sales red herring for box construction. Any line that uses a 1/2” box, and isn’t import RTA, will be a pretty good cabinet box.

The money is in the doors and faceframes. The quality of wood for the faceframes and doors. Lots of sap wood vs heart wood. Select vs Standard. Low priced woods that are soft used as “paint grade”. its why the price deduction for losing the cabinet box and just ordering a faceframes and doors is maybe 15%. How many times the door is sanded, pretreated, stained, wiped, clear coated.

The quality of the finish chemicals and the time taken to finish correlates with cost. Take a nylon and slip it over your hand. Rub your hand across something like a Shenendoah tinted varnish colored cherry cabinet’s exposed end grain on a stile. Then do the same with a like like Plato. Butter. And the high quality wood, with a depth of finish! THAT is the main difference between a OK, Good and Better cabinet. OK won’t even get close. But, it’s OK for many many people.

It’s somewhat similar with frameless cabinets, but the box itself becomes far far more important. The box on frameless provides all of the structural strength. The quality of materials and joinery make a difference between OK, Good, and Great.

Frameless furniture board with confirmat joinery is a standard everywhere but the US, where we cling to framed cabinets. It’s a good system. But again, the box is everything. So a 5/8” standard furniture board with knockoff import hardware will not be as good quality as will 3/4” high density low formaldehyde brands with German hardware.

Ikea is frameless, and uses OK box materials with Good hardware. It’s not Great, because Blum does make it to a price point. But it doesn’t need to be Great, because the vast majority of people simply can not tell the difference between Good and Great. The doors are the same way too. Gloss melamine Or Thermofoil are low cost OK ways to achieve a shiny slab door. There are Good and Great ways of doing that that will cost more money. Nothing has the luster and translucence of a polished acrylic door. It’s like a pearl, in that it has a depth to it. Polished polyester resumes paint is another possibility. None of those things are available in a budget line, because they aren’t budget options. Some better built lines offer laminate and Thermofoil doors, but like the boxes, laminate and Thermofoil come in different quality levels too. Their quality is objectively better than IKEA.

Where IKEA shines is not their OK quality boxes, or Good quality hardware. Their appeal is with their transparency and accessibility to the DIY crowd. That allows creative and handy people to do their own customization for some things. Their hanging rails and leveling legs make an OK installation possible even from the inexperienced. Again, most people can’t really see the differences in installation levels, but they do exist. If they had more parts available, and tweaked a few others, Id rate the install possibility higher.

One huge drawback of IKEA is that you need to be creative and handy to use them. Putting them together is only a part of it. The % of population that owns and uses tools has been steadily dropping, and hardware stores have shifted from marketing to the DIY crowd to the Do It FOR Me crowd. “IKEA hacking” to make something exist, or work, that’s readily available from other cabinet lines, appears to be yet another source of pride and bragging rights than it is about any dollar saving.

The other big limitation is the limitations. The sizes are absurdly limited compared with even a very budget basic cabinet line like Woodstar. The number of doors and finishes that they offer is also quite limited.

That limitation of choices has led to a whole cottage industry of selling 3rd part IKEA doors. Remember my point above? That the doors are the most expensive part of the cabinet? By the time you deal with that added expense, and the other limitations, a better optioned cabinet with the aid of the in shop Kitchen Designer blows them out of the water.

But again, the choice to use IKEA is often not made objectively, but emotionally. Just like someone choosing Plain and Fancy rather than Diamond. “Good isn’t Best” is an emotional choice, when Good is objectively Good Enough for function. Pride in accomplishment, and bragging rights about self sufficiency has a big value to many people! I’m not discounting that at all. That's something that Ikea succeeds very well at tapping into. Im trying to remove the emotional component from it here, to objectively discuss that the emotional attachment exists as an element. It IS science that people who are involved in a project rate their efforts higher than if they were rating a strangers similar results. (I bet someone steps forward to call me an IKEA hater over mentioning the IKEA Effect.)

The bottom line is that Ikea is an entry level quality cabinet. And that entry level quality is good enough to last for years and years without “having” to purchase higher quality to achieve longevity. If you are handy, don’t mind contributing time instead of dollars, and the doors that IKEA offers are something you like, it will be a Great Value for you. If you are either not handy, or don’t like the doors, or have size challenges, exploring other options would be better for you. The cost of your own limitations affects the value that Ikea provides.

Thanks so much for your very detailed reply. It has taken me a day or two to digest it all. I guess I don't quite get your point about IKEA being an emotional choice; it certainly wouldn't be for us. We're not looking for bragging rights; it's practicality, functionality, durability and economy we're interested in. IKEA is also frameless, which seems to coordinate with the contemporary look I want.

I understand lots of your points about what is needed for quality construction and what sufficed in the past. We have a 100 year old house with a large built-in buffet. No dovetail joints in the drawers and rather basic construction techniques, but it's still functioning perfectly.

Actually, according to what you said, I think we'd probably be good candidates for an IKEA kitchen since this is a second home with a smaller, pretty standard kitchen layout with not many options available for doing too many things differently, and there won't be an island (as much as I like them, it just doesn't work in our space). There is a simple IKEA door set I like in melamine.

We're very handy but won't be doing this ourselves. We plan to pay to have the work done even if we go with IKEA.

That said, I just got back a pricing quote from a kitchen planner on using non IKEA cabinetry, and the price was more reasonable than I would have thought, but the designer's process seems quite strange to me since he came and measured and came up with a plan and an overall kitchen price without my ever having seen any of his cabinetry products. This quote was for a complete kitchen install, including cabinets and counters. Never having used a kitchen designer company before, maybe that is the way the process works. I don't know.

Bottom line for us though: This is a second home, and I have been considering IKEA. We are constantly keeping in mind that for this place and this project, "good enough" is all we're looking for. That is one of the primary reasons

Thanks again for the detailed response.

Great response cooks kitchen! You’re absolutely right about the emotional factor when it comes to IKEA. I never thought about it before but you nailed it. It’s “look what I did all by myself” with possibly overlooking what could have been a better choice for themselves in terms of quality, design and installation. I’m not an IKEA hater either. It can be a great option for some. Cooks was pointing out the emotional factor that can be associated with them. Same goes for the allure of anything Amish. The Amish have a mystical allure to them that is often very overrated. The amish are just people like everyone else.....they’re not magical cabinet wizards that carve cabinets from solid blocks of wood. Many if not most Cabinetmaker’s source out a lot of the components and just assemble and finish them. Nothing magical about it.

On the other hand, the cabinetry industry can be overwhelming today. I get that. So many levels of quality. And a single brand can have several series too. A good better and best. My advice is to find a KD that is knowledgeable and you work well with.

Great article, interesting and informative, thanks for taking the time to research and add information as well as answer questions

Cook's Kitchen, thank you for the work of design/pricing and critical thinking that you put into this article!

Glad I found this. Hopefully more Canadian kitchen designers chime in.

@User - This is a GREAT thread. My daughter is looking into redoing her kitchen - She currently has 25 year old cherry cabinets that are nice, but don't go up to the ceiling and do not have the newer functionality she is looking for (pull out trash, deep drawer bases, etc.). Her kitchen is not large (an L shape that's about 13 x 11, with a small 6 foot island). She would like real WOOD doors (painted) and would prefer USA made. I usually deal with total custom. Any suggestions on brands that are nice quality without being crazy expensive. I know she does not want IKEA. BTW - she lives outside Boston. Thanks for the great thread.

What is your specific question?

Design Girl, Does she want frameless, inset or overlay? For a mid priced cabinet line here is what I would suggest from cabinets that I have experience with:

Frameless: Shiloh Eclipse, Showplace EVO

Inset: Shiloh or Showplace

Full Overlay: Medallion Silverline series. They have a sale thru June 2021 that makes this a really good bang for your buck. Lancaster(shaker) and Jackson (modified shaker) doorstyles are very popular.

Keep in mind, many brands will have MDF for the center panel. For paint...that's a good thing.

Kelly

@The Kitchen Place - Thank you. She does NOT want frameless. Looks like she'd like Jackson you mentioned from Medallion, OR she also likes inset.

Following

Sarah, I’m trying to limit thread drift in this, in order for it to remain an archive of useful information to refer to. Can you please delete your much appreciated comment here, and post it as a stand alone dilemma? Tag me, and I’ll respond. 🙂

The Cook's Kitchen - I'd love to see information on Mantra cabinets and Tedd Wood. Tedd Wood was more than double the Mantra price. Is there something between the two or would you consider Mantra to be of good quality? Thank you!

Also looking for some more info on Manta. Anyone have any experience with them? I understand they're a newer entry level line from MasterBrand. I initially planned to go Ikea with Scherr's doors but thinking the coordination and hassle will outweigh any cost savings and the Mantra samples seem pretty decent. Any info would be greatly appreciated!

You will get more feedback and responses if you create a new post about that particular cabinet line...

Thank you @wiscokid. Very helpful...

This is a great thread and I've read it with lots of interest. I'm not as interested in IKEA vs. the rest as I am in frameless vs. framed. I grew up in Europe with frameless cabinets and have now lived in the US for nearly 30 years with various framed cabinets. I still like frameless better from what appears to me be a usability factor, but maybe that is all in my head, but the things that I'd like more information on is to figure out if this is just in my head.

What is the inside dimension of a drawer for a say a 30" cabinet for the different brands, or use the 36" or an 18" as an example.

The same goes for how much space is wasted in say in the 171" direction and the 143" direction due to the framed parts? It might not be much, but having gone from a large kitchen where I had plenty of storage and the frame was smaller to a smaller kitchen with framed cabinets that has more frame (I assume to save money on the doors) this is something that is really pushing me towards frameless feeling like it has less wasted space and be more comparable across lines of frameless cabinets vs. framed ones where that seems to vary by the manufacturer.

One thing that to this day annoys me with the framed cabinets is the lip on the bottom shelf. I love it when I visit my mom and friends in Europe how easy it is to slide out a stack of plates from the bottom shelf and not have to go through the lift motion first.

Following....

I’m going to respectfully ask that the thread drift conversation be deleted from this thread. :) I’m trying to keep it on the specific topic so that it can serve as a reference. Thank you.