Deaths at mosques at Christ Church

maifleur01

Multiple deaths reported at two mosques. Not certain it is related but a Bangladesh cricket team was just arriving at one of the mosques.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/14/asia/christchurch-mosque-shooting-intl/index.html

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nopartyghost

This is horrifying & tragic. Nothing else to say until details are known.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Oh no.

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how2girl

Please take this in...



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Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real

No words.

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lily12

So I'm guessing tRump won't be saying much.

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

The leader of the group who killed a total of 40 people at two mosques is reported to be Australian. Disgusting! I cannot add to the thoughts expressed in How2girls thread above.


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how2girl

https://twitter.com/cnn/status/1106449755092205568?s=21

The link is to this - the NZ PM calling it what it is. Please listen.



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how2girl

Also a warning, the video of this terrorist incident is everywhere on social media. You may come across it without expecting to, as I did. Don’t watch it (I didn’t), please report it.

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how2girl

49

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Chi

He live streamed it...and his manifesto talks about wanting to tear the US apart with a civil war around the 2nd amendment. The goal is to divide the country racially and get rid of the "melting pot" to ensure the future of white people.

Another white supremacist.

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dandyfopp

He sounds so familiar.

49 people dead.

But, there are some very fine people.


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T.W.

49 people dead.

Portions of the ghastly attack at the downtown mosque were broadcast live on social media by a man who police confirmed had also released a manifesto railing against Muslims and immigrants. The 74-page document states that he was following the example of notorious right-wing extremists, including Dylann Roof, who murdered nine black churchgoers in Charleston, S.C., in 2015.

The gunman, Brenton Tarrant, a 28-year-old born in Australia.

Right-wing Australian senator blames ‘immigration’ for New Zealand mosque attacks

So is that right wing Australian senator an indigenous Australian, or is he, too, an immigrant? I wonder when Senator Anning's ancestors migrated to Australia? Or were they criminals, transported from England?

Anning has faced harsh criticism from his colleagues before, especially after he resorted to language reminiscent of the Nazi description of the Holocaust when he called for a “final solution to the immigration problem.”

Anning sounds like he must be a friend of US Rep. Rob Bishop

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chase_gw

.......anti Muslim, and immigrant, anti refugee., anti Jew. There is no doubt in my mind that these monsters have ties to like minded groups in the US,, Canada and Europe. A " white" ISIS ?

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dandyfopp

Precisely. It is here, it is not new, it just has a champion in the WH.

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mrskjun(9)

As horrible as this massacre was, I almost didn't open this thread because I knew where it would go. Judging by some of the posts, the Tree of Life massacre was due to the lefts anti-Semitism, and the Sutherland Texas church massacre was due to the lefts Christian bashing. Can't something be just what it is? Deranged and evil people who have a need to hate and carry it to the worst level. Prayers for the people of New Zealand, I can't even imagine the pain they are feeling.

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dandyfopp

Terrorism doesn't have a religion, it is about unchained unreasoning hatred.

Words matter and the words spoken by a President of the United States MATTER.


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cattyles

Tell you what, mrskjun, say the same thing to your side and say something when your side elevates an incident to maximum screech level and blames “all the leftists”. Those memes and that inflammatory rhetoric posted constantly by your side are provocative, divisive and has consequences.

Eta, and this incident is the extreme conclusion of the rhetoric being papered here on HT by RWE. I’ve lurked on HT for a long time and I know you’ve been here a long time. Surely you know there is a disturbing difference between then and now.

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how2girl

T.W.

Fraser Anning is of British heritage, the great grandson of a British pastoral squatter. He’s a complete nutbag. He’s anti immigration, anti Muslim.

He only got to that position by default/next on the list, because his predecessor, from a nutbag Party, was removed because he was ineligible to be a senator due to his citizenship status (Anning received only 19 votes in the actual election).

He’s now causing outrage, this is his idiotic statement, blaming muslims, using the terrible events of today as a platform to incite more hatred.


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dandyfopp

When Donnie speaks hate against any group it should be met with revulsion and criticism by all who are repulsed by hate- and that has not happened.

He ran and was elected on it, he has spent his presidency trying to elevate and enforce it and the poison fruit is on the tree.

ChristChurch could and would have been here if not for the FBI and may yet.

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tony jelly

Perhaps all those who vilified Ilhan Omar will have a thought or two about this.

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Zalco/bring back Sophie!

This was always the Trump presidency nightmare scenario. Foreign relations and deficits and tax shenanigans can all be fixed pretty easily when sanity is restored to the executive branch, but this unleashing of hatred by those the global economy has left behind, but who feel entitled to something based on their race, is not going to go away as quickly. How many more people will be slaughtered for this madness?

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mrskjun(9)

Have you ever considered that the left have become delusional? How many mass shootings did you lay at the feet of Obama? Can you never accept in the age of Trump, that the same evil deranged people who commit all mass shootings are just that? Evil and deranged people who can always find a reason to justify their actions?

If Trump cured cancer you would blame him for putting oncologists out of business.

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d_gw

Ignoring hateful rhetoric or trying to "explain" it or trying to deflect away from it or brushing it off is condoning it. To think otherwise, that is delusional.

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Annie Deighnaugh

I wouldn't put all the blame on trump who is just a cog in the larger wheel. There's a reason we have seen a rise in rightist, racist, anti-immigrant leaders around the world, not just here in the US. It is happening so persistently, globally, that it can't be coincidental.

We are witnessing people like putin, bannon, et al who are fomenting civil discord around the world as a disunited world is far easier to control than a peaceful, united one. They are using racist/tribalist sentiments extant in all populations as the lever by which to rile hatred and fear. They are expertly deploying social media to foment it globally. And it's working.

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Swampy

Annie, No one put all the blame on Trump, did they?


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Ziemia(6a)

Here is one possible reason this sounds so familiar. We had a near-miss here in the USA. Very recently.

Florida

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coast-guard-officer-christopher-paul-hasson-arrested-gun-charges-hit-list-prominent-democrats-domestic-terrorist/

######

Kjun - we know you don't see the connection. For me, it is glaring. When is Trump going to talk for 30 minutes on the need to view those different from us with respect. To say that in his vision for America the leaders speak respectfully even when in strong opposition. And then lead by example?

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dandyfopp

Enabling followed by distancing every time.

Immigration isn't the biggest threat to a peaceful nation or world, it isn't the crisis.

White Nationalism, nazism, the fragility of the white male ego costs lives.

Over and over and over.

It isn't new and it obviously isn't just The United States.

But it now has an apologist in our WH. They are very fine people.

He normalized them.

He emboldened them.

And some of them are insane and hear orders, hear permission in the hateful things he says.

When he says them people who find hate abhorrent should speak out against what he has said and if they fail to do that you water the seed he has planted.




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chase_gw

Mrs, do you agree there is a rising level of anger and violence directed against immigrants, refugees, Muslims etc ? If you don't then there is no sense discussing further.

However, if you do think this is a growing problem, do you think that all our leaders have an obligation to decry that behavior and tamp down hateful or inciteful language ?

Do you believe they have a responsibility not to use that type of rhetoric themselves ?

Is not very complicated.

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rhoder551 zone 9b-10

Donnie threatens violence against anyone who does not support his views and policies 100%...see this in his recent comments, especially. Any wacko could interpret this as carte blanche to go out and kill people...

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sjerin

Mrs., I'm astounded that you seem unable to hear what T says and not interpret it as words of fomenting hatred. Obama has always spoken the polar opposite. What you wrote makes no sense at all.

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Stan Areted

What terrible news about this senseless act of death and violence--usually innocent people die because of revenge for other acts of senseless death and violence.

The loss of life will be used by those that are users--while the loss will be personal for the victims and their families.

What a circle of hate when people embrace evil.

The finger pointing and attempts to associate these murders to our president or anyone else that did not commit them or plan it are evil, too--just more cowardly.

The only ones responsible are the ones that committed these acts.



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Kathy

It is about hatred for immigrants by extreme RW. It is a global movement inspired by Putin and other authoritarian leaders including Trump.

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mayflowers

Are you claiming that this madmen acted out of revenge? Revenge for what?

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margievank

What the MSM is not reporting is that a man with a GUN thwarted the terrorists. More cherry picked reporting!

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margievank

Guns CAN save lives!

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catticusmockingbird

49 dead.

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margievank

How many more could be dead?

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mayflowers

Right, Marg, the headlines should have all focussed on the man with the gun. Who cares about the victims, especially when the shooters were only acting out of revenge. You can't even really blame the shooters because Islam is such a violent religion that must be stopped by any means necessary.

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margievank

The whole story should be told.

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margievank

MSM has a habit of reporting how they want the story to go.

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Stan Areted

I wonder if a gun was available to those that blame guns for violence if they'd have used it. OR if they would even know how if they found the courage.


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Chi

Trump absolutely plays a role in this. I'm not saying he's a white supremacist but his policies and the words out of his mouth are encouraging those who are. It's indisputable - that's what these groups are saying. They finally feel supported and defended by their president. What did Trump say? There are some very fine people on both sides?

This guy isn't American, but the world is watching us. They watched how Trump refused to let Muslims into the country. Remember that? He literally banned people from Muslim dominated countries from entering the US. You don't think this maniac saw that and felt empowered by that? A nation built on immigration and religious freedom turning away Muslims? And no, it wasn't to protect us from terrorists because the ban didn't apply to Saudi Arabia, the people actually behind 9/11. Wouldn't want to offend them, er, their money.

His border policies have spewed a tremendous amount of racism. No one ever complains about all the Canadians, Russians or Asians that are here illegally. It's only certain people...hmm, I wonder why. Trump only pushes for a literal wall, and he said it's to keep undocumented immigrants from "infesting" the US. Like they are vermin. Like they are less than human.

The stuff he says matters when the whole world is listening. He is partially responsible for this.

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bleusblue2

margievank said

What the MSM is not reporting is that a man with a GUN thwarted the terrorists. More cherry picked reporting!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where did you read that? This is what I read:


A man from inside the mosque then tried to tackle the gunman.


"The young guy who usually takes care of the mosque ... he saw an opportunity and pounced on [the gunman] and took his gun," Mazharuddin said.


"The hero tried to chase and he couldn't find the trigger in the gun ... he ran behind him but there were people waiting for him in the car and he fled."

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mayflowers

Trump and his followers also supported a Muslim registry. Many of them don't believe in registering guns but they believe in registering Muslims. Message is that Muslims are more of a danger to the US than guns.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

How many more massacres before everyone realizes the dangers of demonizing groups as "the other."


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margaritadina

''

how2girl

T.W.

Fraser Anning is of British heritage, the great grandson of a British pastoral squatter. He’s a complete nutbag. He’s anti immigration, anti Muslim.

He only got elected because his predecessor, from a nutbag Party, was removed because he was ineligible to be a senator due to his citizenship status.

He’s now causing outrage, this is his idiotic statement, blaming muslims, using the terrible events of today as a platform to incite more hatred.

''

He is not a nut bad at all. He is right almost 100%.

Attacking people in a mosque has no excuses, though.

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Emily H(9)

Good morning. Please remember to leave out any name-calling or personal attacks on your fellow community members when discussing this terrible event.

If you attack other users with your comments, those comments may be removed and your account may also be removed.

Please also refrain from publishing any portion of the "manifesto" associated with this event or any links to the video.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Margaritadina in your estimation which are the parts that he is wrong on?

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bleusblue2

dandyfopp said

It is all over the news that the murderer was stopped by a gunman.

~~~~~~

You may be right but it isn't all over the news. I searched and here is what I read:


In the other attack, witness Mark Nichols told the New Zealand Herald that he heard about five gunshots and that a Friday prayer-goer returned fire with a rifle or shotgun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Video footage has emerged of what appears to show police arresting a gunman who filmed himself shooting people at a mosque in New Zealand.


The recording, shot on a mobile phone, shows a number of police vehicles at the side of a road where a car is pulled over outside a row of houses.


Armed police can be seen standing over a person in dark clothing who is lying on a footpath, and the front right wheel of the car can be seen spinning in the video.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

While I understand and agree with a ban on linking to the video, I don't agree with a ban on publishing the manifesto.

The person who committed this travesty appears to have had a specific agenda, and I think it's important that the world understands what that agenda is so that we can recognize and counteract it when it appears again in other forms.

Already there is a conflicting narrative being advanced that this was not an act driven by white supremacist ideologies. If the (alleged) perpetrator's words can't be used to discredit those reports the result could be very dangerous. This thread is a historical record, no matter how insignificant it may feel to us at the moment.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

Can someone please post a reputable source for the information that the gunman was stopped by another person with a gun? I've searched for this and found nothing.

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maifleur01

For those that are not aware New Zealand has few gun laws. Air New Zealand has apparently cancelled all flights until security measures are tightened. Which makes me wonder if the guns used were already in New Zealand or not caught by security before the reached New Zealand.

For those that seem to think that Trump etal. has little to do with this the threads yesterday about his aiming the military and bikers is a projection of this. The anti-whatever aimed these gunmen at the mosques. Quite similar to Trump's treats. If some on here do not see it or want to deflect from this any future violence when it comes is on them. It will come so I only hope they are not at the wrong place when it happens.

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Chi

I'm going to be very curious to see what happens with New Zealand gun laws after this tragedy. My guess is they will do something, unlike the US.

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lily12

I heard on the news in part of his manifesto that he was influenced by the white nationalists in America. He read Bannon's book and he knows tRumps policies and ideas from his hateful rhetoric so some of this falls back to tRump and his band white nationalists( some are very good people, tRump said he heard>>>Sarcasm).

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dandyfopp

By gunman I mean police apprehension, I should have been more clear.

What I have read is that shooter was tackled, disarmed and fled, before the police caught him, that was New Zealand news.

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margaritadina

''miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Margaritadina in your estimation which are the parts that he is wrong on?

''

There are two branches of Islam - one breeds fanatics and terrorists, another is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology. There are plenty of Muslims who are not capable of taking a human life no matter how solid and strong their belief is and they can't ''kill them wherever you find them'' (Quran 2:191).

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Thanks margaritadina :)

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numbersjunkie


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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

So the perpetrator was apprehended by armed police? Not quite what is conveyed by the term 'gunman'. Afaik NZ police are not routinely armed.

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dandyfopp

You are right floral, but please remember, I am American.

Police here= guns, a lot of them. Matter of fact, around here we don't even need a permit to carry a concealed gun, thanks to our god fearing governor. I did have to get one to get my new water heater installed though.



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woodnymph2_gw

Even before he was President, Trump's rhetoric against minorities has enabled all the "haters" of "the other" to proceed with their agendas. Thus he does bear some responsibility for inspiring other haters around the globe who can find his words on the internet. It is now a global problem . Horrible to think that the so called leader of the free world, would continue to foment divisiveness on such a large scale and so openly.

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margaritadina

''

woodnymph2_gw

Even before he was President, Trump's rhetoric against minorities has enabled all the "haters" of "the other" to proceed with their agendas. Thus he does bear some responsibility for inspiring other haters around the globe who can find his words on the internet. It is now a global problem . Horrible to think that the so called leader of the free world, would continue to foment divisiveness on such a large scale and so openly.

''

It began WAY before Trump became the President.

It began with Hilly's ''white people should practice humility'

with BLM's ''white people we need your houses, we need your money''

with Obama wrecking racial relationship and opening a hunting season on police.

With the knockout game.

with Obama saving Muslims and leaving Christians and other religious minorities behind for slaughtering

Trump is only an indication that a lot of people are very, very pissed for a long time. When Dems will get it, they will get the rest of what's happening with this country.

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T.W.

There are two branches of Islam - one breeds fanatics and terrorists, another is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology.

I guess this "explanation" works for the "two branches of Christianity" too

One breeds fanatics, white supremacists, terrorists and murders people, and the other is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology.

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dandyfopp

Oh, the rise of white nationalism is another fault of the Clintons I see.

I guess it was only a matter of time, did we get to 100 posts?


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margaritadina

''

T.W.

There are two branches of Islam - one breeds fanatics and terrorists, another is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology.

I guess this "explanation" works for the "two branches of Christianity" too

One breeds fanatics, white supremacists, terrorists and murders people, and the other is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology.

''

Religion is not a race in case you didn't know.

White ISIS lone wolf was recently arrested, the stripper bomber wasn't right.

Learn facts about Islam. It will help you understand the world around you.

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T.W.

Religion is not a race in case you didn't know.

Islam is a religion, in case you didn't know

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d_gw

Please, enlighten us with your facts about Islam.

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T.W.

I see Trump sent his "best wishes" to the people of New Zealand.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"with Obama... opening a hunting season on police."

I'll bite. What do you mean?

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chase_gw

....and " warmest sympathies" Isn't there anyone in the WH who could help him with these things? Guess not.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Personally, I think we have some posters re-writing history--AGAIN!

Kate

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

he's an idiot. "best wishes"? "warmest"? how about heart felt?....oh that's right, lacking a heart.

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maifleur01

He makes it sound like the shooting was a birthday party. Probably for some they received the same heart warming feeling that a birthday party often brings. We are starting to see it on here.

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catticusmockingbird



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Ziemia(6a)

For one thing, there aren't "two branches" of Islam.

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T.W.


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T.W.

Trump: "I have the tough people"
New Zealand murderer who wanted to spark a civil war in the US: "Trump is a symbol of renewed white identity & common purpose."
David Duke: Charlottesville is a turning point to fulfill the promises of Trump

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chase_gw

"What the cult is being fed"

How can the thinking right not denounce this? Please some on the right who post here please speak up in outrage over those comments (Limbaugh) .


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dandyfopp

They won't, I wish I was wrong.

Some will repeat it.

The death toll is now 50.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Rush Limbaugh. Ugh.

That is precisely why bans on the shooter's manifesto are dangerous. Because if we can't read and interpret for ourselves, we're left with Rush.

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Kathy

Trump sidestepped admitting it was a White Nationalist who committed the killings, claiming he didn’t know yet.

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catticusmockingbird

That is precisely why bans on the shooter's manifesto are dangerous.


Pretty sure you can find it online.


"There is a lot we don’t yet know about what motivated the 28-year-old man charged with murder in a shooting that killed 49 people and injured at least 48 others in two mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand.

But his writings suggest that the white nationalist ideas behind violence and attempted violence in the United States and elsewhere influenced him deeply.

The shooter reportedly left behind a 74-page manifesto. It’s the kind of document instigators of mass violence often write to inspire copycat attackers (which is why I chose not to link to it).

Still, the document is worth understanding in context. There are throughlines in the manifesto that are similar to the ideas described by other shooters or those who have attempted shootings in recent cases in the United States and around the world.

In February, a “white nationalist” Coast Guard lieutenant in Maryland was accused of planning attacks on members of the media and left-leaning politicians. (The attacks may have been stymied because of his web searches related to drugs and violent extremist acts.) The Christchurch shooter and the Coast Guard lieutenant used similar language, made similar references, and most disturbingly, revered the same people for their use of horrific violence in the furtherance of white nationalism.

The reason it’s important to both understand the Christchurch shooter’s manifesto and refuse to spread its contents without context is that a manifesto is a published and public declaration of intent or belief — and the critical term to remember is “public.” The Christchurch shooter wrote his manifesto with the clear intention of it being shared widely after he committed an act of mass murder.

That means that historically, terrorist manifestos have never been accurate documentation of either their belief system or the planning that went into their attacks. The main intention of terrorist manifestos is not to help everyday people understand how they became terrorists — it is to create new terrorists.

In this particular manifesto, the author is not attempting to provide a fully factual history of himself or his reasoning behind his actions. Much of the first 10 pages of the manifesto are the shooter responding to questions he’s posing to himself about who he is (“just an ordinary White man” and why he decided to kill (“to show the invaders that our lands will never be their lands, our homelands are our own and that, as long as a white man still lives, they will NEVER conquer our lands”). The manifesto intersperses details about why the shooter targeted New Zealand with self-aggrandizing rhetoric about the shooter’s own personal bravery."


Complete Vox article: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/3/15/18267163/new-zealand-shooting-christchurch-white-nationalism-racism-language


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T.W.

I wonder if Mr Trump corresponded with the New Zealand shooter. He certainly admires Mr. Trump

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MissMyGardens

catticusmockingbird, agree with not linking and need to understand context. Thanks.

[The shooter reportedly left behind a 74-page manifesto. It’s the
kind of document instigators of mass violence often write to inspire
copycat attackers (which is why I chose not to link to it).]

[Still, the document is worth understanding in context. There are
throughlines in the manifesto that are similar to the ideas described by
other shooters or those who have attempted shootings in recent cases in
the United States and around the world.]

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I hear and understand that viewpoint catticusmockingbird. As a rational person that reasoning makes sense.

The problem is, irrational people (see Rush Limbaugh) will not hold themselves to concepts of honour and honesty when discussing it, and I think that people should have the ability to stand against him and say "you're wrong, you can find his words and thoughts here: "

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T.W.

Muslims embraced us Jews when we were slain at worship. Now we must support them.

When I saw the news from New Zealand Friday, the cracks in my heart widened. Another act of terrorism. Another act of hate. I know something of what the Christchurch community is going through because less than five months ago, my community went through something similar. On Oct. 27, a terrorist murdered 11 members of my synagogue in Pittsburgh.

On Friday, within hours of waking up, the staff at Tree of Life in Pittsburgh convened. Congregants began calling and emailing each other. We needed to organize. We needed to do something, and not merely to help people in New Zealand, but to counter Islamophobia at home. Tree of Life Rabbi Jeffrey Myers shared this plea in an email to the congregation, “I ask you . . . to reach out not only to the injured communities, but to your Islamic neighbors as well.”

From our own experience, we know that the hours and days that follow will bring intense bewilderment and grief. Yet, after our shooting, there was something that gave us strength. In that time of pain and fear, another story emerged, one of hope and love.

On Oct. 28, I attended a hastily organized memorial service at Soldiers and Sailors Memorial Hall in Pittsburgh. Dignitaries and politicians filled the front rows. We listened to the speeches, with their impassioned messages of support. Pittsburgh Mayor Bill Peduto spoke, as did various clergy, representative of many different faiths. At one point, the clergy leaders — Muslim, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Presbyterian, Hindu — crowded on the stage together. It was a powerful sight of unity.

One speech stood out for me more than all the others. Wasiullah Mohamed, the executive director of the Islamic Center of Pittsburgh, took the stage. He announced that the center had begun raising money to pay for funeral expenses for the victims. He had already raised thousands, and in the coming weeks, the number would skyrocket to hundreds of thousands. Mohamed also made a vow. He pledged that the Pittsburgh Muslim community would stand with the Pittsburgh Jewish community. He and members of his community offered to personally stand guard at the doors of local synagogues, if necessary, to allow Jews safe passage to our places of worship and to accompany us if we felt unsafe running our daily errands.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of these words. Muslims offering to protect Jews? To me, there could be no greater olive branch, no more profound promise of peace.

Six days later, on a Friday evening, the Tree of Life congregation gathered privately in a small chapel at Rodef Shalom, a nearby synagogue, for the first service of Shabbat. As I waited for the service to begin, people I didn’t know filed in. Soon, the row behind me held a half-dozen strangers, the women in traditional abaya and hijab. I looked around and saw many Muslim families like them joining the crowd. When our congregation rose to speak the mourner’s Kaddish, they rose with us. Afterward, we thanked them. They offered us their condolences and invited us to attend a service at the Islamic Center. Salaam, I said. Shalom, they said.

Not long after, Mohamed coordinated an event bringing together survivors from the terrorist attack on the mosque in Quebec with the survivors from Pittsburgh. They all wept together.

Now in Pittsburgh, signs bearing messages of love and peaceful coexistence dot front yards, construction sites and shop windows. A popular one reads, in English, Spanish and Arabic, “No matter where you’re from, you are welcome here.” Others read, “No place for hate” and “Stronger than hate.” A few local churches have hung banners with the words, “Love all thy neighbors.”

I hope that the bonds between the Pittsburgh Jewish and Islamic community continue to grow. The Temple Sinai synagogue and Islamic Center of Pittsburgh are co-hosting a Shabbat dinner in Squirrel Hill. And, next month, many Jews will be inviting people of other faiths to our Passover Seders. The 2 for Seder program is a national initiative launched by Marnie Fienberg in honor of her mother-in-law, Joyce Fienberg, one of the victims of the Tree of Life massacre. The hope, according to Marnie Fienberg, is to “build bridges to our neighbors.”

On a Saturday in Pittsburgh, there was one message of hate, but it was followed by millions of love. When my son asked me, "Why do people hate us? Why do people hate Jews?" I was able to point to evidence to the contrary. Let us now do the same for our Muslim brothers and sisters.

We can donate to lessen the burden that lies ahead for the families of the victims. We can reach out with messages of love and support. New Zealand Police Commissioner Mike Bush encouraged Muslims to stay away from mosques; perhaps we can follow Mohamed’s example and make the same offer he did, to put ourselves between our Muslim neighbors and those who might mean them harm. We promise we will continue to work with you in our common fight for the right of people of any faith to worship peacefully. Pittsburgh and Tree of Life stand with the Islamic community of Christchurch in New Zealand.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

NZ has a mass shooting. One day later the Prime Minister states, 'I can tell you one thing right now. Our gun laws will change.'

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cattyles

Miss Lindsey, everything I have read about the manifesto makes me believe it is not worth reading and “interpretation” is meaningless. It’s a big pile of troll feces. It should not be disseminated for the same reasons that certain posters here should be ignored as if they don’t exist. Come on, you’re too smart to say that if you can’t read something for yourself, you’ll just take Rush Limbaugh’s word for what it all means. Trolls and trolling is not always simply an irritation.

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ubro(2a)

I agree floral,.US has a shooting and one day later they say, "now is not the time to discuss gun laws, thoughts and prayers"


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Fuhgetabauti

We have millions of people pouring into the country unchecked, there is a
sense of lawlessness which leads to unrest. We have a legal orderly
system of immigration which is being entirely bypassed, creating a sense
of frustration and anger among many Americans. Millions of people are
pouring in. The laws are there to create a framework in which we can all
get live together in peace and harmony, and that framework has been
badly distorted by partisanship, inaction, refusal to enforce the law,
corrupt politicians, greed, and bad decisions by activist judges. The
very fabric of our society is stretched thin. I sense dark times ahead for all of us if we continue down this path, I'm sad to say.

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d_gw

Nice attempt at deflection away from the real problem. Angry nut jobs with guns.

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Fuhgetabauti

There always have been and there's always going to be nut jobs with
guns. Just because someone doesn't have a criminal record and has not
been diagnosed with anything, doesn't mean they're not a nut job. We
live in a country with exceptional freedom. Freedom comes at a cost, the
possibility and actually certainty that someone will abuse it.

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margaritadina

''

T.W.

I guess this "explanation" works for the "two branches of Christianity" too

One breeds fanatics, white supremacists, terrorists and murders people, and the other is pretty loose, has much better relationship with other religions and doesn't share extremists' ideology.''

''Religion is not a race in case you didn't know ''

''T.W.

Religion is not a race in case you didn't know.

Islam is a religion, in case you didn't know

''

Reading comprehension? White supremacy is not a religious concept. It's a concept of superiority of one race to another/or all.

Conflict of religions is when one group of black Muslim Somalian "refugees' throws another group of black Christian Somalian 'refugees' off of the boat in the Mediterranean sea and drowns them because black Muslim Somalians hate black Christian Somalians and kill them using every opportunity. Kapish?


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Chi

Freedom comes at a cost, the possibility and actually certainty that someone will abuse it.

So what's your solution to gun violence? Just chalk it up to a cost of freedom? I'm not okay with that, and neither is the majority of Americans.

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maifleur01

Ah the deflection begins again. I know it must be a game to see how many comments can be made that have little to do with the main topic but it only means that the people posting the deflection accept what this man and other have done. They probably cheered when they saw the news. After the "thoughts and prayers" of course.

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T.W.

“Daily reminder that we have a **Muslim Ban** in this country made out of the President’s hostility to Muslim people w/ little-to-no supporting evidence, and a Republican Party that tolerates it,”

Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.), one of the two Muslim women to be elected to Congress last year, wrote in a statement: “I am so angry at those who follow the ‘white supremacy’ agenda in my own country that sends a signal across the world that massacres like this is some kind of call to action.”

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T.W.

Freedom comes at a cost,

This isn't freedom, it's terrorism

The price is too high, far too high

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chase_gw

So damn sad....... Yes the shooting....but much sadder is the reaction of some.

Mass murder is the price you pay for freedom ? I' m so thankful my head cannot get around that thought.

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ubro(2a)

Freedom comes at a cost, the
possibility and actually certainty that someone will abuse it.

Are you suggesting that the rest of the world with gun control laws that work are somehow oppressive regimes? Give your head a shake, pull it out of the sand and look out beyond your own boarders.


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Fuhgetabauti

Are you suggesting that the rest of the world with gun control laws that work are somehow oppressive regimes

Well, we see what happened in Venezuela. We see what happened in France. I find it ironic that in one thread the left is lamenting Trump's threats to get the military and police to commit violence against them, and in another they're asking to disarm themselves.

The price is too high, far too high

You posted a collage of tragedies. But many many lives are also saved every day by guns. People who protect their families from intruders, women who protect themselves from rape, generations of minorities who banded together to protect themselves with their guns against majority oppression. And best of all, a country of People who stand proud in freedom knowing no one can just come take it away from them. When tragedy strikes we all weep. But we should not, cannot take away freedom from hundreds of millions of law abiding americans because of a handful of nut jobs.

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Rita / Bring Back Sophie 4 Real

I find the argument that anyone could defend herself against the US military or police for that matter, with assault rifles, risible. Their weapons will beat your weapons. Their organization will beat yours. Your defense against them is called the US Constitution and a working society. They will beat your weapons every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The imbalance of power and organization is not a trifling matter.

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mayflowers

I typed the same thing right after he posted and then thought I'd just let him enjoy his little fantasy.

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d_gw

Many, many lives saved by guns? Do you have a link to real data? Is it more than 65,000? Because that is how many people in the US were injured or killed by guns last year.

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

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Fuhgetabauti

I find the argument that anyone could defend herself against the US
military or police for that matter, with assault rifles, risible.

Tell that to the Taliban. Or ISIS. Or the people of Vietnam.

Is it more than 65,000? Because that is how many people in the US were injured or killed by guns last year.

Vast majority of that is suicides.And that number seems to be ever growing, it was 45 on another thread. No one knows how many lives are saved, no one is counting women who get grabbed in a dark alley and manage to pull a gun out of their purse and fend off the assailant. I personally know two women who had men literally break into their house 15-20 years ago and try to rape them. They both had guns in their purses fortunately.

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margaritadina

''

T.W.

“Daily
reminder that we have a **Muslim Ban** in this country made out of the
President’s hostility to Muslim people w/ little-to-no supporting
evidence, and a Republican Party that tolerates it,”

Rep. Rashida Tlaib (D-Mich.), one of the two Muslim women to be
elected to Congress last year, wrote in a statement: “I am so angry at
those who follow the ‘white supremacy’ agenda in my own country that
sends a signal across the world that massacres like this is some kind of
call to action.”

''

Little to no evidence? When she will express her anger about 9/11, San Bernardino, Pulse, Boston, NY, slaughter of Christians in Syria, Somalia, Tajikistan, Indonesia, Chechnya - may we can consider this HAMAS brown-noser feelings.

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d_gw

A suicide by gun isn't a gun death?

So, the only data that you have that civilian guns save people are your two personal anecdotes from 15/20 years ago. I can't believe that NRA isn't keeping track. The number must be bad if it isn't easily researched.

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maifleur01

Twenty years ago it was probably illegal for those women to even have a gun much less keep it hidden in their purse so I doubt if that story was more than that. Very few people can pull and cock a gun quick enough to do anything other than have the gun knocked out of their hands. Used guns of one type or another most of my life and that is one of the fairy tales that makes people think they are safe until they are in a real situation where a gun will do nothing.

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Fuhgetabauti

A suicide by gun isn't a gun death?

What do we call it when people hang themselves, a rope death?

I can't believe that NRA isn't keeping track. The number must be bad if it isn't easily researched.

Actually,
surveys indicates anywhere from 500,000 to 3,000,000 instances where
guns were used for defense. And one cannot underestimate the deterrent
effect of knowing there's a good chance the person you're about to
assault might have a gun.

Almost
all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by
victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with
estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3
million (Kleck, 2001a)


https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#15

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d_gw

2001?

Plus, you forgot to cut and paste the rest of the paragraph.

----------------

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

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Fuhgetabauti

Yes, the article says the number is disputed and give a wide range. It's still a lot of people even if you go towards the low end. These are the people that will be most affected by gun control, the ones who follow the law. Criminals don't care, that's why they're criminals.


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d_gw

So, after all that, there is no concrete up to date data about lives saved by civilian gun use. Got it.

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Fuhgetabauti

Yeah, we should do a thorough one and then when we have all the data we can talk about gun control measures.

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how2girl

Margaritadina

What country do you live in? I’m going to suggest that I know a lot more than you about the rhetoric and how much of a nutbag Fraser Anning is. Did you get your opinion of him from his response to this act of terrorism, speaks volumes.

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how2girl


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how2girl


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how2girl


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how2girl

Apologies for wallpapering. It’s my country.

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ubro(2a)

But we should not, cannot take away freedom from hundreds of millions of law abiding americans because of a handful of nut jobs.

No one is asking you to, they are asking you to take away the freedoms of the nut jobs. If that means a little extra paper work for the law abiding citizen then so be it, it is not like they are asking you to donate a kidney or something.


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chase_gw

The problem isn't responsible gun ownership and I have never, ever heard anyone say the 2 nd should be abolished or all gun ownership banned. That is simply untrue and a purposeful smokescreen tossed out by gun lovers.

The issue is access to weapons and the types of weapons. I am certain sensible gun laws could be enacted to control unfettered access and ban certain wapons without infringing on anyone's rights.

It will happen, Americas youth will make it happen......... along with universal healthcare.


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T.W.

Do they get their rhetoric from the same source?

  • the man who killed 11 people at a synagogue in Pittsburgh last October blamed Jews for helping what he called “invaders”in the Central American migrant caravans who were trying to enter the US.
  • the main suspect in Friday’s Christchurch terrorist attack was committing the killings “to show the invaders that our lands will never be their lands.”
  • On Friday, Trump issued the first veto “People hate the word ‘invasion,’ but that’s what it is,” he said,
  • Ahead of the 2018 midterm elections, Trump tried to stoke fear and gin up Republican support by labeling a so-called caravan of Central Americans trying to enter America an “invasion” as well.
  • “That’s an invasion. I don’t care what they say. I don’t care what the fake media says. That’s an invasion of our country,” Trump said during a rally last November as his supporters chanted, “Build the wall.”
  • Meanwhile, Trump says he doesn’t think white nationalists, like the alleged terrorist in New Zealand, are becoming a global problem. “I think it’s a small group of people,” he said when asked Friday if he’s concerned about the spread of the hateful ideology around the world.
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T.W.

Apologies for wallpapering. It’s my country.

No apology necessary

I am so sorry, for your pain, for this tragic loss

Your heartbreak and sorrow must be unbearable.

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how2girl

Thank you T.W. x

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tony jelly

There is another weapon involved in the white supremacist terrorism: hate speech. At its most effective hate speech comes from official sources, that and making immigrants (i.e., nonwhite nonChristians) lesser humans. "If it is OK for a government to bomb and drone Muslim countries killing civilians with impunity, why can't I pop a few too?" Goes the rhetoric.

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Ziemia(6a)

Has the following claim been retracted (or substantiated)?

"What the MSM is not reporting is that a man with a GUN thwarted the terrorists. More cherry picked reporting!"

{Seems MSM got it right and Fox didn't.}

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Fuhgetabauti

The issue is access to weapons and the types of weapons.

Most gun-related murders are committed with pistols. Something like 10 times more than with "assault weapons". Ban pistols then?

If that means a little extra paper work for the law abiding citizen then so be it

It's never enough. There's nut jobs that will will fill out all paperwork and pass all requirements. Like this guy that shot close to 50 people. So when the next shooting happens, they'll just squeeze the people who did nothing wrong more and more until it's all gone.

If demanding ID is voter suppression because some people don't have it or can't easily get it, it stands to reason demanding all this paperwork to buy a gun is suppressing people's ability to exercise their constitutional 2nd amendment right.

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Swampy

Freedom does come at a cost. And that cost should be sane gun laws, similar to driving: Registration, Education, Testing.

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Fuhgetabauti

Driving is not a constitutional right. Owning a gun is. What next, indoctrination before you get free speech?

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d_gw

Comparing the requirements to vote with the requirements to own and use a dangerous object is malarkey.

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MissMyGardens

"If demanding ID is voter suppression because some people don't have it
or can't easily get it, it stands to reason demanding all this paperwork
to buy a gun is suppressing people's ability to exercise their
constitutional 2nd amendment right."

There are too many people who disagree with that analogy and will not stop working toward greater enforcement which people "say" they're okay with but do nothing to support it. This is just repeating what I read yesterday on NRA social media. It was a big deal for Kentucky to pass the concealed carry without a permit law most recently. Their "reasoning" that criminals don't have a permit so why should all the responsible citizens be punished with permit requirement. Oh, and it's a God given right which they translate into "constitutional carry" as a "civil/human right" because they're so good at branding.

Fuhgetabauti, don't intend to get into semantic tete-a-tete as it goes nowhere. We don't agree and never will on this topic. I'll be on the alert for someone wanting to thrash me with their ballot.




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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Further up this thread people disputed the numbers of people who use firearms for self defense. Frankly, most people who have to don't report it.

I, for one, have used a firearm four times in self protection, firing it only once. Once at age 14 protecting my farmstead and dog from two intruders on snowmobiles just after a blizzard, once in my ground floor apt during an anticipated labor strike, once while camping in a remote area from campsite thieves, and once during a burglary in my Scottsdale home while alone.

I didn't live in rough areas, just vulnerable ones where the law was minutes to hours away when the perps were seconds away.

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T.W.

And your experience has what relevance to the mass murder in New Zealand?

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Swampy

Democrats and liberals use facts

The right wing tells stories

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

My experience had relevance to the aforementioned discussion about guns used in self defense.

Also, were there any concealed carry individuals in the mosque who could have helped to stop this at some point? In churches in our area, we have members who consistently carry to protect the congregation. (We had some scary, provocative situations in the last decade with strangers acting "off" scanning the congregations, not talking to or touching anyone even when greeted with handshakes. Police even recommended additional security. The police felt these individuals were perhaps there only to intimidate.

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Kathy

Ask yourselves why Trump cut funding to prevent white terrorism in US? Is it because he doesn’t admit there is such a thing or is it because he thinks it is ok, that the real terrorists are Muslims, immigrants and others?

Recruiting online is a combination of humor which leads to curiosity in certain dark sites and leads to recruiting. Thus the rabbit hole. We see some of the dark humor here on Hot Topics.



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d_gw

No, the question was please supply data regarding how many lives are saved by civilian gun use. Lives protected by civilian gun use data would be fine too. There is no data, just a couple of personal anecdotes.

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Stan Areted

Duh.

There is no way to be accurate.

How many people have decided not to burglarize, rob or kill someone (which happens when people are robbed because some criminals intended to shoot, some got excited and decided to shoot, and some victims decided to fight back and the criminal shot) because they found out or knew they had guns? How many people saw an NRA sticker on a car or watched a woman with a gun get out of her car and thought better of their nefarious plans?

They're all personal anecdotes, unless there is a mass shootout between criminals and victims at the same time.

That hasn't happened unless it was the mafia or the Old West.

But it might happen again, I know more people carrying now than I ever thought I'd know. Growing up no one carried a gun. Now not only men, but women carry.

Most have concealed carry permits. Open carry is legal at a certain age and if you're not prohobited by law to carry.

Criminals are finding out more and more they are taking their chances with homeowners, who are shooting back and SAVING THEIR LIVES and the lives of their pets. Criminals often shoot the family pets.

THAT MIGHT get a progressive a bit upset.




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Kathy

Why did the NRA lobby to prevent Congress from doing a study about gun violence?

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T.W.

Too risky for the NRA

There might actually be less gun violence after such a study

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T.W.

Australia cancels Milo Yiannopoulos's visa after Christchurch comments

Immigration minister David Coleman said on Saturday that comments about Islam made by Yiannopoulos in the wake of the Christchurch massacre were “appalling and foment hatred and division” and he would not be allowed in the country.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Poor Milo!

I wonder if his apologists will be condemning the Australian government as much as they did Cal Berkeley?

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

Once at age 14 protecting my farmstead and dog from two intruders on snowmobiles just after a blizzard, once in my ground floor apt during an anticipated labor strike

Yep, those sure sound like some real dangerous situations - good thing you had that gun, because otherwise all Hell would surely have ensued!

And we all know the presence of a brandished gun always reduces the incidence of violence. I mean, it's not like there are any statistics to show otherwise or anything like that.

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floral_uk z.8/9 SW UK

In a society where hardly anyone owns a gun, burglars, muggers etc. don't carry them either. Gun ownership escalates gun use.

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maifleur01

I did wonder about the "once in my ground floor apt" bit. Was the gun flashed in the window to scare the people away? Having had an uncle mistaken for another during a labor dispute and beaten so badly that his skull was crushed I know they can become violent. There is a difference between brandishing a gun an using it which is what most people think of as self protection. A knife can do the same thing or even a cup of hot coffee.

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T.W.

Brandishing a gun is a threat to use a gun, and more often than not, they are used

After all, why waste a perfectly good brandhish?

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T.W.

The Trump administration’s condolences have so far failed to use the word “Muslim” or “Islam.” Under Donald Trump, the US government has banned immigration from several Muslim-majority countries, sharply cut the number of Muslim refugees admitted, and used divisive language to criticize the Islamic religions’ nearly two billion followers, in sharp contrast to previous US presidents.

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo this morning (March 15) offered his “personal condolences to the Nation of New Zealand in the wake of the mosque attacks,” said “the United States condemns this hateful assault,” and pledged the US’s “unwavering solidarity with the government and people of New Zealand,” in a press conference this morning. But he never mentioned the Muslim community.

Before he joined the Trump administration, Pompeo warned a church group of the threat to America from Islam, and this year in Cairo, he delivered a controversial speech in Cairo rebuking Barack Obama’s promise of a “new beginning” with the Muslim world.

Kirstjen Nielsen, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, shared her sympathy for the “victims and their families” in the morning.

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders also mentioned “victims and their families” but not Muslims in a statement: “The United States strongly condemns the attack in Christchurch. Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. We stand in solidarity with the people of New Zealand and their government against this vicious act of hate.”

Attorney general William P. Barr referred to religion in his statement, but avoided naming which religion had been targeted:

“Violence on the basis of religion is evil. Today’s attack in New Zealand is a sobering reminder that the threat of political and religious violence is real and that we must remain vigilant against it. The Justice Department joins in mourning with the people of New Zealand.”

Even first lady Melania Trump–who is not, of course, an elected official–failed to use the word “Muslims” or “Islam” in her condolence tweet to grieving “families”

After a white supremacist shooter attacked a Quebec mosque in 2017, the White House didn’t offer sympathies to Muslims then either.

Source

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maifleur01

TW I have to agree with the brandishing but it seems that many think simply showing a gun will cause a backing down of the situation. It does not. It will also get you killed. Only once on the farm did I ever even carry a gun but I always got my message across. That time I already had it in my arms and did not want to put it down.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Responding to: maifleur01

6 hours ago

I did wonder about the "once in my ground floor apt" bit. Was the gun flashed in the window to scare the people away?

.................

My husband and I lived near his work. He was a part-timer not covered by the union and would have been fired if he did not cross the picket line. Union workers keep hassling him and asking what his intent was and if he was worried about his wife being home alone at night while he worked if he crossed the picket line. Also asked if he valued his pickup or its tires.

We spent a night at the kitchen table with the lights on and the curtains opened cleaning the handguns and the shotgun. The same thugs asked him at work the next day if I knew how to handle them, and he told them I taught him...and had used them before for defense.

Yes, we were being hassled and watched, and were ready to defend.

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Ziemia(6a)

Andrew Anglin, founder of the notorious Daily Stormer website — say that they were radicalized by 4chan

“I had always been into 4chan, as I am at heart a troll,” Anglin wrote. “This is about the time /new/ [a specific 4chan board] was going full-Nazi, and so I got into Hitler, and realized that through this type of nationalist system, alienation could be replaced with community in a real sense, while the authoritarianism would allow for technology to develop in a direction that was beneficial rather than destructive to the people.”

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Kathy

Humorous memes and other online humor draws unsuspecting people into 4chan and 8chan sites. From there young people can be radicalized. It is a movement and intentional. White supremists aren’t called terrorists. They are likely to be described as mentally ill when in reality they have been radicalized.

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bob_cville

Loonlake, Your stories are excellent examples of why determining number of times a gun is "used in self defense" is difficult. Some guys make threatening comments to your husband. You both sit in your kitchen cleaning your guns. The guys make some more comments to your husband that may indicate they saw you through the window, or may indicate that your husband made some comment about cleaning your guns all night, and in the end nothing happens. Which may well be what would have happened in any case. Or you see some people snowmobiling on your property and confront them with a gun, and they leave, and nothing happens, but if you had confronted them without a gun, the exact same result may have occurred.

Or, hypothetically, someone knocks on your door in the middle of nowhere, looking like some ragged, drugged-out hippie, while your husband is away working. The hippie tells some obviously made-up story about his GPS leading him astray, and his van getting stuck in the sand, and asking you to come to the van and try to help.. At that point if you shout "I'm getting my gun", or come forth brandishing it, and the drugged-out hippie says "whoa man, you're crazy" and runs off and nothing happens, is that another instance of "self-defense with a gun?"

Because nearly exactly that happened here yesterday, while I was out working. Except my wife talked to the "hippie" and found that his GPS had directed him across our neighbors property where the lengthy driveway connects to two different dead-end roads, but the bridge over a creek is out due to a massive flood last year. He tried to turn around but got stuck in the silt from the flood. My wife helped direct the tow truck to the van, which pulled the van out of the silt, and the "hippie" drove off, and nothing happened.


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Ziemia(6a)

Traditional media, politicians and others have a hard time in understanding this culture. Mass murders like this have some features in common with traditional terrorist atrocities. The manifesto presents serious references as well as jokes, depicting previous far-right murderers such as Anders Breivik and Dylann Roof as models. Just as with traditionalist terrorist groups, large scale atrocities are intended to attract wide public attention in the hope of achieving political goals. The massacre appears to have been intended in part to stir up division in societies such as the United States. The leveraging of social media to make a murder video go viral is in some ways reminiscent of the efforts of terrorists such as Abu Musab al-Zarqawi to circulate beheading videos in the hope of radicalizing young people.

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Kathy

There is a reluctance and possible a total denial by Trump to call white supremists terrorists and admit they are recruiting online just as ISIS terrorists are recruiting. Instead he is adding to their ranks by calling immigrants invaders, the same language the White terrorists use to describe Muslims.

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dandyfopp

More tough people to support Donnie when things get to a certain point.

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loonlakelaborcamp(3 A/B)

Bob-cville, you doubt the legitimacy of my self defense claims when you state, "Loonlake, Your stories are excellent examples of why determining number of times a gun is "used in self defense" is difficult. Some guys make threatening comments to your husband. You both sit in your kitchen cleaning your guns. The guys make some more comments to your husband that may indicate they saw you through the window, or may indicate that your husband made some comment about cleaning your guns all night, and in the end nothing happens. Which may well be what would have happened in any case. Or you see some people snowmobiling on your property and confront them with a gun, and they leave, and nothing happens, but if you had confronted them without a gun, the exact same result may have occurred.

................l.l

Well, union thugs were leaning on our cars going to work in the morning and loitering near our apt door at night ( hubby had to go to work before I got home from work.) After the gun cleaning incident, they didn't come back.

As far as the snowmobiler incident, the 2 of them were trying to kill our farm dog (already ran over him once or twice), before they were to normally rob the isolated farmstead. Took the nearest neighbor 45 minutes to travel the 2 miles to our house in the snows. Because of me shooting off the hood, we were able to ID the varmints who had invaded other farm houses in like manner and robbed them, and beaten up some of the elderly owners.

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margievank

There is a reluctance and possible a total denial by Trump to call white supremists terrorists and admit they are recruiting online just as ISIS terrorists are recruiting.

If a white supremacist carries out a terrorist attack, they ARE a terrorist. There is no reluctance or possible denial by ME- a Trump supporter. Remember, if I voted for him, therefore I am him according the teachings of the left on here.

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how2girl

Less than 24 hours later, Attorney General David Parker announced that New Zealand will ban semi-automatic rifles.



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Kathy

Margie, I am actually happy you feel that way rather than minimizing. Too many people call Muslims terrorists and when it is White Nationalists they are described as mentally ill rather than a terrorist.

Trump thinks they are a small group. As much as that Is true, ISIS is a small group proportionately. Hate even in small groups is deathly.

Terrorism by any group is still terrorism. Radicalization is happening in many different groups. There is a global push for White Supremacy, especially on internet sites.

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