Flowers, I haven't heard of those products, either. They sound interesting, and I'd like to learn more about them. But I want to put the good word in for Nu Life organic compost (a jolt of chicken manure comes in the stuff). It's a regional product, so it might be available in the Spokane area. This stuff is greased lightening for roses. Sorry for the mini hijack. Diane

Anyone who has seen your roses, Diane, is all ears to know what you use to get such spectacular results. You've mentioned Nu Life before, so it's about time I see if I can come up with a source here. After some checking, we have one independent garden store that sells other Nu Life products, so I'm sure they'd order the compost for me. Do you use it in the planting hole in place of some of the soil, or in smaller amounts as an amendment? And, where does Lilly Miller fit into your routine? I'm guessing it's a food or fertilizer like the Tones?

Flowers, Nu Life is a compost, not a fertilizer like the Tones. I can spread it all around a rose, and let it break down over the winter and early spring months. The wetter the weather, the better the breakdown of the compost into the components that are usable by the roses. This takes a while. Meanwhile, in March, I apply a granular fertilizer for acid loving plants. Sometimes, it's Lily-Miller, and sometimes it's Hi Yield. This year it's Hi Yield because that's what I picked up at the farm store. Some years I use a Tone applied in the spring. I'm thinking about eliminating the Tones and just using Nu Life, especially this year, since I am running behind. I don't know what results I'll get this year, but it's not the end of the world, I guess. What do you use on your roses? You have shown us some spectacular photos, so I want to know your secrets. Are the E.B. Stone products expensive--bet they are. Nu Life runs $5.99/1.5 cu ft, but I always have about a 20% discount with a coupon. My farm store's prices are mostly very good. Diane

Diane, I don't have a tried and true method. I use some of Strawchicago's and Waleed Khalid's suggestions, and trial and error. Not sure I spelled his name right, but I'm sure you remember him from the Organic Rose forum. My soil is so bad (I think) that I use mostly compost with a little soil. I add a few cups of a Tone, a few large scoops of pine fines (for rabbit cages), a little vermiculite or perlite and mix it all up in a wheelbarrow, then dump it into the minimum 2'x2 hole. For French roses, I use more of my native soil because it's alkaline. For English roses I use more compost for a more acidic blend. French roses with English parents are a problem. I'm not sure what German roses prefer. I've used the alfalfa tea bags, and loved the results, but plan to use Trish's alfalfa tea recipe this year. I hope I don't end up with anything like Pappau's Big Stinking Mess.

Good grief, that's a lot of work. Do you use your concoction as a general fertilizer, too? I'm so lazy all my roses get the same thing when planted: about 3/4 desert soil and 1/4 compost; or bagged garden soil, whichever is handy. It's hard enough digging holes in my dirt cement, plus I have to break up the soil with my hands and remove rocks, etc, before I can mix in the compost/bagged garden soil. It's a long process. So the roses can't be too picky. No tea, either..... Well, it's off to bed. Tree people will be here earlier than I'd like. Diane

Ha, that was my newly shortened version. I used to also add mushroom compost and myorrhizae and whatever else I could dig up in the garage. I haven't done much general fertilizing, but I used cracked corn from the feed store around the base of roses two years ago, as per Straw's suggestion, and got visible results quickly. Straw said since corn is what cows eat, it should work like manure, no odor, and has the same nutritional breakdown. I thought that was interesting. It's very cheap fertilizer and my chickens ate the leftovers. It's not good in the hole, however, because she said it gums up. I'm glad you asked because I'd forgotten about cracked corn and might like to use it again this year. Do you use manure in the fall only or during the growing season, too? I'm hoping for a good spring flush having used manure for the first time last fall, following your example.

Flowers, I use manure for the flower beds in general, and save the more expensive compost for the spoiled roses, hibiscus, peonies, clematis, and any other special plants. As far as fertilizing after that first round of granular fertilizer, it often doesn't get done until way later in the summer. Maybe some Miracle grow from the hose end sprayer. I poop out as the season goes along. The Nu Life compost contains myorrhizae, too. I can't be sure of my spelling on this crazy word. That's interesting about the corn, but it's not going to break down here when it's so dry. And the quail would devour it, I'm sure. Oh, boy, the tree people are going to town. You wouldn't believe the trucks and the huge cherry picker, just like the power company. As the tree guys arrived, here came the heating and cooling guys, doing their semiannual check up on those systems. I'm surrounded my younger men! Diane

Oops, to answer your question--early spring would be for fertilizer of the general planting areas. When I used it on the roses, they got manure in late fall. I'm sure you'll have a fabulous spring. The roses probably could take care of themselves. We just think we help them. Diane

E.B.Stone products are available on Amazon, but the shipping is terrible.

Enjoy all your young men today, but remember, you're recuperating.

Hi this year I started to use EB Stone 5-5-5 plant food upon recommendation from a friend who is a local consulting rosarian in the East Bay S.F. EB Stone started the fertilizer business in San Jose CA and has been pretty much a local family business. I believe the business was sold to another family in the 70's. The brand is better known to local gardeners and farmers in Northern California than elsewhere.

I haven't yet used the EB Stone Rose and Plant food because I found the NPK a bit too high for routine use every 6 weeks: 10/12/6. I use the EB Stone 5-5-5 all purpose plant food. The price of the 5-5-5 is similar to a bag of 18 lb Rose Tone, which I also used routinely for 2 years.

I compared the ingredient of EB Stone 5-5-5 with Rose Tone. EB stone has bat Guano, Kelp meal and blood meal which Rose Tone does not have. Also EB Stone has higher dosages of beneficial bacteria. The 5-5-5 still provides more nitrogen, phosphate and potassium than Rose Tone, which is 4/3/2. Also the calcium and sulfur levels are higher with the 5-5-5. I think for the first fertilization in late winter/early spring this is fine.

My roses are doing very well this year, perhaps better than this time last year. Not sure it is the EB Stone or the John and Bob's soil amendment (another California organic company) or both.

Thanks, Rose. I'm so glad you cleared up why those products are not widely available. I like that kelp is one of the ingredients. I'm planning to use kelp this year. It can be purchased separately and used with any other plant food, such as Lilly Miller or Rose Tone. Some gardeners on the rose forum like the other Tones better, or just as well, as the one specifically for roses. I've used Garden Tone, Flower Tone and Rose Tone interchangeably, I don't know if you've seen photos of Diane's (Nanadoll) roses, but I think sticking with what she uses is the way to go. I couldn't even find a local source for the other amendment Grace Farms recommended in place of E.B Stone - Perfect Blend Organic 4-4-4, but she did say it was a commercial product. Thank you so much for your info.

Good point, Carla. But, wouldn't that be fun to video tape! I haven't had squirrels for years. I guess they didn't like my variety of plants. Our old yellow lab who would eat anything is no longer with us, and the deer fence keeps out the wild turkeys. I can see where it wouldn't be possible to use cracked corn if you have squirrels or other critters. Or chickens that roam freely. Mine can't because of predator birds.

A soil test would be a great idea, then you know what actually needs to be amended.

I'm locked in on this thread.

Lots of good information.

Dingo, I am seriously thinking about doing that. I've gardened in this spot for years, mostly by trial and error and making a lot of mistakes. Although I'm starting to get a good idea of what my roses need, It would be helpful to know what kind of soil I'm dealing with.

Jc, I'm almost holding my breath waiting to see the fruit of your labors this spring, but especially in the years to come. You've put so much time, effort and thought into your roses, I just know it will be the talk of the town.

Haha thanks flowers.

I don’t see it as work though, because I enjoy it. My wife says I “piddle” in the yard because there’s always something I need to do.

Even if I lose some or get bad performers it’s ok because I get to keep going with replacement.

It will take a few years to see the results I’m hoping for but I like being here to see everyone else’s plans come to fruition as well.

I was planning to use Tone on the Veilchenblaus and some Black Magic’s (accidentally got some body bags again today) to keep the colors trending to cool instead of turning red or pink.

I didn’t realize Austin’s likely prefer acidic soil as well. Good info. Makes sense.

Rose, how long did it take to get your results back from the soil lab? I can't take a sample until the ground thaws, and that's also when I will start digging holes for planting. My season is so short, I don't want to waste even a week waiting for results. Looks like you have nothing serious to worry about with your soil. I agree that organic amendments provide the best kind of nutrients without worry of overdoing it.

Jc, don't take what I say about Austin's preferences to the bank. I'm quoting Strawchicago (I hope correctly). Science and chemistry are not my thing. But, apparently the soil where Austin roses are bred is a bit more on the acidic side. I think you are too new here to have seen Straw's posts. She is a scientist and did a lot of experiments with soil and amendments. Most of what she said went right over my head. If her posts are still here, they'd be on the Organic Rose forum.

Funny how body bags accidentally follow us home this time of year.

It took me about 5 business days to get my soil test results back from U of Mass. On the website I think they said it will take 2 weeks, but I remembered it took less time than that. I think some local state labs may offer soil test for free, but U Mass is very good and reliable.

Here is the website with the information: https://ag.umass.edu/services/soil-plant-nutrient-testing-laboratory/ordering-information-forms

Interesting that you acidified your soil for the Austins. I planted some 17 new Austins this year, and I acidified my soil too. As you can see from my soil report above, my soil pH is quite alkaline at 7.7. I only put 2 tablespoons worth of Espoma Soil Acidifier because I am terrified of over-correcting the soil too fast. I can always add more later.

How much acidifer do you use for established roses and newly planted roses?

Rose, I have not used an acidifier as such. But, I have thrown in anything I have on hand that would lower the number. Pine fines, coffee grounds, and using less of my native alkaline soil - things like that. I'm also afraid of doing too much too fast. I suspect my soil pH is about like yours. With 7.0 being neutral, 7.7 isn't extremely high and ought to be easy enough to correct.

My understanding is that you cannot really effectively change your ph. Check out the lawn forum for some great info on soil tests and amendments.

Dingo, I've heard that, too. But, if that's the case, why, then, do we even need to know our soil pH? The best we can hope for, i guess, is to try to get the proper pH in the planting hole and that is probably only temporary. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll look at the lawn forum this evening.

Because the PH can affect uptake? of certain nutrients in the soil. Adding chelated iron helps. I had a soil test done and Morph on the lawn forum wrote me a really nice amendment plan. Once you start reading some of the recommendations it helps clarify :)

Lawn care is interesting. Who knew! I've been reading the lawn forum and got lost in lawn care for an hour or so. Thanks, Dingo.

I think it was gardengal that told me it’s the aluminum that makes soil acidic.

So aluminum phosphate is best.

That sounds familiar, jc. I have notes I need to refer to before my season starts. I still have a ton of snow on the ground. Spring feels a long way off.

Flowers, I hope that snow melts fast. It's finally springish here, but our winter, like yours, came in Feb/Mar while January was mild. I'm glad it's been late because it gave me more time to rest. I know you don't like chemistry, but here goes on soil acidity, boring as it is: The breakdown of organic matter in soil is acidic in nature, forming more acid compounds as a result. Leaching out of nitrogen in soil also causes some acidity. High nitrogen fertilizers which are ammonia based can also make soil more acid. Aluminum comes into play in determining the color of hydrangeas. Acidic soil forms acidic aluminum salts which express the color blue. Like litmus paper. Aluminum hydroxide forms in basic soils and produces a pink color in the flower. Please forgive the boring stuff. Giving fertilizer for acid loving plants to roses does help the soil to acidify in my garden, and really helps the chlorosis problem of roses that don't like alkaline soils. But it's an ongoing process because it doesn't permanently change the pH of the soil. So every year my roses get a does of this fertilizer in early spring. I'm not very concerned about soil pH if the roses are doing well. Diane

Ahhh, that was actually music to my ears, Diane. You made it simple enough for even me. When people start throwing numbers at me, my eyes glaze over. Makes sense that we feed the roses every year because we can't permanently change the soil make up. If our soil was perfectly suited to roses, we wouldn't have to do anything after sticking them in the ground. But, that wouldn't be any fun. So, organic amendments are our best bet for the slightly acidic pH roses need, and/or giving them plant food for acid lovers. Hmmm, if I don't get my soil tested, that's another rose I could buy. Something to think about.

Strawchicago actually has a post on HMF that says her Munstead Wood needed alkaline soil to stay healthy, so she had to reverse the amendments

I just took a look at that, jc. Munstead's preference for alkaline soil is a reminder that growing roses isn't an exact science. There's a lot of trial and error to find what works in our own conditions.

It makes sense that what works in Grace Rose Farm's dry z10 climate wouldn't necessarily work in z4 Canada or in humid Georgia. Roses may not be able to tell us what they want, but they do tell us when they're happy or unhappy.

The take away for me is that what works for Grace isn't necessarily best for my roses. Especially if it's not available! But, I do appreciate their willingness to share their methods. Not every business wants to reveal what makes them successful.

But most businesses are willing to advertise for a deal ;)

I appreciate anyone who shares their methods. Especially those who grow such great plants.