Craftsman Creations I figured out both. The Renner is a product line. HCL is hydrochloric acid, which sounds toxic. Not sure my cabinetmaker will use this, but thanks

No, HPL is high pressure laminate. It’s what most of the Euro cabinet manufacturers use. It’s a print of wood, so never acts like real wood and changes color.

Top sample: European Oak- European finish.

Renner is a state-of-the-art brand of coatings that has come out with a two-part, post-catalyzed conversion varnish that is waterborne so will not yellow yet has the durability to rival oil-based coatings. Other companies that also provide similar are Milesi, Sayerlack, ICA, and a few others. Envirolak does a durable one-part waterborne coating that can be brushed and rolled if you cannot find anyone to spray the catalyzed varnish. Some people have been happy with General Finishes one-part waterborne coatings, but they won't be as durable as any I have mentioned above. The fact is that non-European white oak is going to tend to lean in a yellow direction regardless of the finish unless you apply some bleaching compounds to it. A lot of the currently very trendy white oak looks that come across in a pale or neutral colorway are laminates or have been specially pre-treated with whitening agents.

Thank you. Very helpful.

Here's a descriptive analysis of some of the finishes available. You may have to look around to find a finisher who can produce the durability and tone on the white oak variety you currently have. Finisher's Warehouse offers a color match service. (602) 824-9255. Maybe they can help.

I am responding to Silverlined’s post from July 3 regarding the waterborne sealers. My cabinetmaker made up a sample of natural white oak with a flat, clear water-based finish. It’s much better than the oil sealer that made the wood look golden amber in color. I don’t know what company the sealer is. My question to you is will a water based sealer on a bathroom vanity hold up? Or, Should I have him look into the sealers that you recommended?

Take the sample and do some testing on it. See if regular rubbing alcohol wiped on for a few seconds abrades it. Then leave some water on for 10 minutes and wipe it off and see how that does. The rubbing alcohol test is a pretty good one. All but the best waterborne finishes will erode under rubbing alcohol, and that is a common substance used in bathrooms whether standalone or as a component of mouthwash or other creams. You might also want to see what a drop of petroleum jelly or hand cream wiped on and off will do to the finish. Almost any waterborne finish that is one-part will underperform in these tests compared to a two-part catalyzed conversion varnish. Envirolak might be the one exception for one-part, waterborne finishes that are durable. With so many great waterborne, two-part, post catalyzed conversion varnishes out there, it would be a shame to not use one of them if you could. They will hold up the longest for you. Look into Milesi, Renner, ICA, and Sayerlack. Call around in your area to see if any painter specializes in catalyzed, waterborne varnishes that are sprayed. If you are having trouble locating an experienced painter who uses catalyzed waterbornes, let us know your location, and maybe we can help.

Silverlined my cabinetmaker is experienced with spraying on finishes and has a professional shop. I’ll discuss further with him. Thanks again

Just not sure if he’s familiar with the products you mentioned

Silverlined do you represent a company or product? Where are you located?

@jmsreader Spraying one-part finishes is a different skill from spraying two-part finishes. You asked above about durability of the presumably one-part, waterborne clear coat sample that your painter provided. Unless you can test that finish or give us the name of it, there is no way for us to know how it would hold up long-term compared to two-part, post-catalyzed, waterborne finishes such as from leading edge companies like Milesi, Renner, ICA, Sayerlack, and a few others that manufacture waterborne coatings known to rival oil-based clear coats in durability testing. So, unless your painter is willing to do a catalyzed finish or perhaps would look into Envirolak which manufactures the only one-part clear coat finish I know suitable for cabinetry that offers the type of durability on a level with catalyzed finishes for which you seem to be looking, then you may want to expand your search for finishing options. I know of a couple of people in my home state of Texas willing to do sprayed, catalyzed, waterborne finishes. I am also aware of a few others who post regularly in this Facebook group: https://m.facebook.com/groups/diycabinetrefinishing who offer the service. Be very cautious that anyone you contract to do the work actually uses the catalyzing agent if you go that route. Some will take a two-part finish and fail to mix it in order to make application easier, and then the durability is lost without the hardening agent added.
To be quite honest with you, you are in catch-up mode, having contracted production of a cabinetry unit before finalizing your finishing plans, so your options now may be limited if you are stuck with one finishing service that is not open to the newest waterborne coatings and techniques. Catalyzed coatings are in most instances sprayed because they set up too quickly to brush or roll with the exception of a few finishes meant for hardwood flooring such as Loba's 2K products. Mixing and spraying catalyzed coatings is an art and also requires supplied air respirators for application due to the isocyanates released into the air during spraying. I'm a homeowner representing no one, but I feel for your dilemma because I contracted production of an entire kitchen full of cabinetry at a time that I thought a Waterlox wipe-on finish could be done myself after production. The Waterlox imbued a distinct orange tone which was a disappointment and not something I had fully anticipated based on photos of kitchens I had seen finished with Waterlox. After extended research, I settled on using Loba 2K Supra AT with EasyPrime. Its durability is unmatched in water-based, catalyzed clear coatings and can be brushed and rolled on in a very short window after mixing. The technique and effort required to do this on cabinetry is extreme, and although I have had success, I would never do it again nor recommend it.

@rahmlahn - I'm curious...How are your cabinets holding up after a year with Diamond Oil? I'm doing the same thing now, and I really like the look of your cabinets.

Hi good folks!

I thought I would add my experience, as I went a little OCD on the color for our kitchen project of Rift(quarter) cut white oak cabinets/veneer.

I first purchased a few samples...

I got the following and tested them directly on the extra pieces...

General Finishes Hi Performance Flat (available most places)

Modern Master Supreme matte (available most places)

Centurion, matte(?) (limited availability)

Minwac Polyacrylic (available most places)

Renner 718 flat (limited availability)

I also had given a sample to a couple shops that do cabinet finishing. He used a bit of white and solvent, and it actually came out nice, and it also did the best in the sun. But I read a number of places that over a few years the UV inhibiters fail. I got prices from $1800 to $3000. And non would use waterbased. They all use a fast coating process with lacquer finishes or solvent.

I did try the waterbase with the white the solvent guys used, and it did turn yellow. As the UTG color is a Oil Base so it didnt work right with WB. So, I avoided this route. But it maybe a good way to go. I still have that sample and it darkened the least. As there was a white applied that locks the color.

So, this was a tough choice. I followed and asked a number of woodworkers on the direction, and few were helpful.

I sealed different sections of the wood with these products.

There were 2 issues that occur with different products.

First, with some of these, the wood darkens as it would when you get wood wet.

General Finish darkens the wood as you apply. And it dries in this darker tone.

MMSupreme was less, but this changed color the most.

Renner applied has zero change. Using the catalyst made no significant change, as it was very hard to tell if it was the same or maybe a tiny bit(acceptable) shift.

The other test where most of these failed was leaving the wood out in the sun.

ALL of them shifted to a very noticeable darker tone. Some towards a yellow-er tone, and some more of a "bamboo" non yellow warmer tone.

So this took all of them out of the test accept for the Renner. All others tinted either too dark, or yellowish.

The sealers are NOT always the ones changing color! It is the tanin wood under it for White Oak.

I tried bleach, but I found to color to work best without the wood getting altered.

BUT, they all did darken!

So, since this is not a house I plan for short term, and due to windows and sunlight we get in the kitchen, I wanted the least shift over time. Centurion was good as well.

I called General Finish and spoke to a expert there, and he said to mix some white in the seal to get it not to darken. I tried this, but it still was making it dark, and no UV protection.

After reading here about Renner being a option, I went to their facility. And the rep was very helpful. He agreed that you would want to add white to the first coat. And with some tests, them working with me for a good chunk of time, we were able to get the 718 flat, and the 851, as well as another one they have for flooring to give excellent results.

So I went with Renner, as I saw the results I wanted. No color shift when applied, and the least UV shift exposed to sun. The price is not that much more than the General Finish.

How you work this in steps is vital to get the right results.

First light sand. Then spray on the color mix. then make sure you get it all down and flat, and then light sand. Then must clean, and then next coat. repeat. I used 3 coats, they recommend 2.

The finish with 718 is like the natural wood you got from day 1. The 851 has different sheens and it has a slight satin to it.

The most important thing, based on your level of expectation is to TEST the product out... in different conditions you might have. Like mine, a sunny kitchen.

I have just finished most of the process, and close to rehanging the doors and all. Its a good chunk of work. I can post picks when done...if this topic is still of interest. :-)

Lots of work, and I'm glad you found Renner. They are very well known among pro painters for having quality coatings.

The MOST important thing here is to wear your respirator and use proper site ventilstion, no matter what you are spraying.

And to expect wood to behave like wood behaves, no matter how you try to finish it. If you expect wood to behave like plastic, then buy plastic. Laminates and modern Euro foils are superior for wear resistance to begin with. And for appearance too.

@hu-648829010 would love to see a pic if you have one. Great info!

Ugh... I want so badly to have a white oak kitchen and all this info was amazingly helpful but it seems like too much work (and too expensive)! With an entire house renovation, addition and pool going in I think I should just keep it simple! Great info. though!

Just an update on our kitchen, it was installed January 2019 and just finished with Woca Diamond Oil (incredibly simple process). The cabinets still look amazing (3 years later), we actually had renters at our house for 18 months and the painted upper cabinets (finished by Barker Cabinets) did get a few chips, but there is no noticeable discoloration or change to the appearance of any of our white oak cabinets. I am incredibly impressed with the Woca Oil finish and would absolutely recommend it to anyone.

Picture today of cabinets

Beautiful!

Amy, with all you have going on, I would absolutely advise against trying to finish cabinetry yourself. You will have enough to do with touch-ups on all the rest of the work to deal with something as big as that. Woca oil is only something to consider if you don't mind the orange hue that it imbues. An oil finish is usually not the most robust wood protection you can get for wood in a heavily-used kitchen, the sink base in particular.

Does anyone have contact info for a good finisher in the bay area ? someone thah has gotten tne results you were after - natural looking white oak? Anyone out there decide to use rubio monocoat on their cabinets ?

Following

I’m doing it right now and it is perfect. Once the simply white is lightly rubbed on you can spray the sealer

The photo is with sealer

Thank you for sharing this info! It looks amazing and will share with my cabinet maker. In your opinion- The oil based white will not Amber in time?

Be advised that any oil-based or oil-containing product will amber over time regardless of what anyone tells you. Some products with oil in them will skew yellow or orange more than others based on ingredients and formulation (for example, linseed-oil products color yellow over time more than orange tung-oil products, though both will intensify in color over time), but a water-based finish is the only way to avoid this effect. Plenty of companies offer modern, durable, waterborne clear finishes. Look at Envirolak, Milesi, Renner, Sayerlack, and ICA for starters. General Finishes makes a one-part, waterborne, brush-on, clear varnish product that isn't as durable for cabinetry as two-part conversion varnishes are, but it would be one of the easier products for a home owner or small shop to do independently.

Thank you for this added info. My cabinet maker is suggesting keeping the rift cut vanities natural then spraying with a water based matte lacquer. The sample pulls a little orange imo. Any advice on how to kill the orange and add a very soft touch in a chocolate milk tone? I have learnt so much and appreciate this community very much.

You can try this test: take a raw wood scrap from your vanity project and wipe it with a wet rag. If the "orange" you are seeing from the water after you wipe raw wood is the same orange as you are seeing from water-based spray varnish, then this is the natural color of the wood under any coating. You will need to apply some type of wood bleach to get the wood more white to change the color, an expensive and time-consuming process. Now, there is a chance that the spray used by your cabinet maker has oil in it but is packaged as a "waterborne" due to the delivery method. If the spray paint is drying down as an oil, then you could be seeing some extra ambering from the coating. I recently used Deft Clear Wood Finish spray paint, an acrylic waterborne finish, for some cabinet work. Rockler Woodworking stores carry it in my area. Be careful, because this brand also comes in an oil. You want the waterborne to avoid ambering. It is a nice finish but will not be as durable as Envirolak or other two-part waterborne finishes I mentioned above. Also, the Deft requires multiple coats to build thickness. I used 5 to 7 coats in the areas I was working on.

Water-based (like Flat Out Flat) is the easiest non-yellowing finish. Gives it the freshly sanded look. Easy to touch up, too.

The table is very close to the water-based look; a slight warming glow but not what I'd call ambering:

1st coat - 1 part Osmo Raw + 10 parts Osmo Clear Matte

2nd coat: Osmo Clear Matte

There is too much white pigment in Raw, giving a very whitewashed look, hence the dilution.

The cutting board is 2 coats of Osmo Clear Matte

Osmo isn't stain, it's a hard oil/wax. That cutting board seen daily use, for many years. All my creations are intended to be living treasures made to last for generations - not precious, delicate crap under glass or mass-produced cheapness.

Soild white oak is very tough stuff, especially indoors. Well made veneers should fare pretty well, too. To me, thick lacquer or any other coating like that cheapen the piece.

Beautiful pieces @manleytom. Not sure my cabinet maker would be willing to take that kind of time…..:)

Osmo is oil-based so will amber the wood if not immediately, then in time. You can see the ambering effect in the most recent samples pictured above. True, Osmo is a finish on its own, however some kitchen users may not find Osmo protective enough for the sink base and may prefer a less permeable varnish there. A wipe-on finish like Osmo is, in my opinion, far faster and easier to apply than a traditional varnish, particularly a two-part, post-catalyzed conversion varnish which is the industry standard for cabinetry with a lifetime warranty on the finish.

@User is your sample in the picutre ”regualr” white oak? did you use a water based sealer? we’re having cabinets made, likely of white oak, and trying to get a stain that does not pull pink and neutralizes the oak, showing more of gray and natural background. any help is appreciated! thanks

@jmsreader what did you end up doing on the white oak cabinet? I have the same issues with stains as you outlined. can you share a pic?

Susanrhill34 we have used this finish on flat sawn and rift.

Aglitter seems to have all the answers. Can we see your work?

@susanrhill34
The sealer is water based. It’s important to let the oil base stain dry 100% before applying a water base sealer or it could react. If you want to use all water base just ask for the simply white in a vanish

We are doing another home currently

@Alexander Grey -- can you share the finish you used on the finished kitchen that you shared? We are using rift sawn white oak and looking to achieve that.

Additionally -- do you advise against a laquered finish? We'd like to be able to wipe the cabinets off if water or anything splashes on them, as you would a painted cabinet. Is laquered the only way to achieve that?

Our cabinet maker may do "smoke 5% laquered".

I posted this somewhere else but if you want to do hardwax oil you can use the ciranova products, either the un1co or hardwaxoil magic in smoke. If you use hardwax oil magic, you should either add a hardener or follow a layer of the colored hardwax oil with titan matte as the top coat, this will make it a similar durability to poly.

I like hardwax oils cause i like the natural texture and ease of application. Then if I want to refinish I"m not sanding through all these layers of poly and reapplying the layers again, i can just lightly sand and rub on another layer of hardwax oil.

Plus waterborne poly can get these white flakes over time, though the newer brands are supposed to be less susceptible to that.

This is not a cheap brand, unfortunatey. But you can get 100 mL samples.

@HU-648829010 would love to see a picture or get an update on how it is looking now. Thanks!

@Usersorry for the late response to thank you for the info you provided. (I was not getting notifications that there is a response, but fixed now) I really appreicate you sharing your knowledge. I am still working with my cabinet company trying to get the look I am after. In your opinion should there be any color variation in doing the flat sawn vs quarter sawn or rift (I know the grain varies)?

and one last question, apologize if I missed it, but what specific sealer do you use? I am wondering if my cabinet company uses something that tends to change the color. they have given me a sample with a light version of the minwaxsimply white, but with whatever sealer they use, the wood turns more orange or pink…but defintely does not look like your sample above where you show the before and after pieces you did. again, thank you so much for your insight!!

The recipe for success is rub on Sherwin Williams “simply white” stain. Rub it on in small sections like the style or rail of one cabinet and then immediately wipe it off. Within the grain it will have a white tint. Follow up with a water base polyurethane like “flat out flat” by general finishes.

Thanks so much!! I will follow up with my cabinet folks with your suggestion. greatly appreciate the inpu! I just looked through your projects on Houzz. Beautiful work!

just looked up flat on flat water basetopcoat..it does indicate that it is less durable and not recommended for high use areas like kitchen cabinets. given these cabinets are for my kitchen (which I may not have mentioned above), do you recommend using this or another product to seal? have you used this product for kitchen cabinets, if so what has your experience been with durablity and water? thank you again!

Thank you! Agreycabinets.com

Ok let me rephrase. First the flat out flat isn’t a urethane. I meant to say either a water based polyurethane or a finish like flat out flat. A polyurethane would be better for a high use area like a kitchen cabinet vs flat out flat for furniture grade cabinets

@Userthank you for the clarification. I do recall in a previous house I had the oak floors finished with satin, water based polyurethane, which worked fairly well on a natural finish…so this makes sense. Appreciate your insight!

@User what sealer are you using over that simply white stain on kitchen cabinet applications? Thank you!