I agree that the fridge should have landing space and be in an area of the kitchen that does not interfere with the cook or the island.....the fridge is being used constantly by everyone in the house and you want it in a space where people will not get stuck when passing. Also I do not care for the stove/cooktop and the sink on the same wall as you are having the dw in the way when emptying and loading it and the person cooking uses the sink alot....just me opinion.....

In #3, I'd flip flop the fridge with the ovens, and move the dishwasher left of sink so it doesn't obstruct movement in the workspace.

DW left of a wider sink, oven on bottom wall. If you want the toaster hidden, you could use a ROTS in a garage in the corner. I put the coffee maker in the 'cubby' between the oven cabinet and wall.

Why do you want to hide the toaster and coffee pot? Do you not want people to know you drink coffee? Do you not want people to know you get toasted?

It's a kitchen. It's a work space. It's not a museum. Hiding those things does not make it look like something other than a kitchen.

Why buy a huge kitchen when you don't need all of it?

I'm from the Netherlands, so for us most US kitchens are gigantic (our entire home is 21'x21', times two for second floor). I like compact yet practical kitchens. Not vast amounts of counterspace.

I'd personally pick your current layout and transform it.

But if you dream of an island in an elongated kitchen, here is some chopping I did in design #3 (I do like the design they made, would leave out the uppers next to the hood though, no corner cabinet either)

Dear Wentzylvania,

I don’t have the time here to go into detail about what’s right and wrong with your new kitchen layouts, and how to resolve, fix, or eliminate them. But I have attached your opt 1 layout including observations I’ve made you may find helpful.

No one knows what you truly want and expect more than you.

If you want to discover for yourself which layout is best for you. Simply move into your new kitchen as if it already exists. Almost no one does this.

First you just take inventory of all of your kitchen items from your existing kitchen. You can get my inventory item checklist here

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hRsA-z8hirJiff_IJG-nqWT7KdywwYtx/view no name and email needed.

Then, using just your layout or your layout and interior elevations, move into your new kitchen by putting all of your kitchen items away where you’ll use them most for greatest efficiency. If you need DIY help go here: https://www.kitchendesignco.com/new-kitchen-doesnt-work/

If you do this properly you’ll become extremely familiar with your new kitchen, and how it works. You’ll know where all of your items go that makes the most functional sense. You’ll know if all of your items will fit. You’ll know if you have the right cabinetry configurations and accessories to properly store and get all of your kitchen items. You'll end up with a kitchen that works intuitively.

And all long before your kitchen is done. When all of your help is gone, then you’ll be left to figure this out on your own, and will have to just adapt to what you got and make do.

Not what you are expecting to have happen, when you’re designing a new kitchen, but if you’re not careful exactly where you could end up. Adapting to your new kitchen just like you did when you moved into the kitchen you inherited when you bought your home.

This is the only way I’ve found that you can avoid the huge mistake of getting a new kitchen that you believe is custom designed just for you, your space, and your stuff. Only to discover, too late, that you don’t really know or fully understand how this new kitchen works at all.

Hope this has been helpful.

Joe Brandao

Kitchen Design Company

tatts, we are a family that leaves clutter if given the opportunity. While I would love to change that, I am not sure if I can. Tucking the coffee pot and toaster away when not in use is something I would like to do. If its not, that is not a deal breaker. But I would like to try.

oliviag63401/bring back Sophie, we are trying to set the seating so the view is out the triple set of windows.

mama goose_gw zn6OH, which version do you like? I am leaning toward option #2 with some tweaks. I also like version #1, especially the fridge/oven wall. I favor #2 over #1 because of the proximity of the fridge to the sink. I also agree that the dishwasher should be to the left of the sink rather than the right.

mad_gallica, so I guess from your story you like version #2 better than #1 and #3?

Our designer could not come up with a version without an island that expanded the kitchen and made good use of the space. And I like the island.

Kitchen Design Company,I appreciate your suggestions. I have been working on placement of various kitchen items in cabinets. I know I will not do lots of double drawers like shown on the drawings but will tailor them to what I have/need.

Here is our current floor plan in two versions:

To address your questions:

1. glassware will be stored in a drawer
2. the island will be where we eat casual meals. We have a dining room for more formal ones.
3. we gain access to our grill and covered patio through the door by the patio.

Based on what you see of our floor plan, what do you think is the better location for the fridge? At the end of the short wall or the long window wall?

None. With such a nice space you can do better. You should have two sinks. A cleanup sink along the back wall and a prep sink on the island. Put the cooktop between two windows on the long wall and the fridge along the left side of the long wall.

The point I was trying to make is that the aisle clearances aren't arbitrary numbers that somebody made up to make your life more difficult. If you have more than one person working in the kitchen at a time, there has to be room for them to move around each other. Otherwise, people get frustrated, and I see no reason to deliberately design frustration into a new kitchen.

Would it be possible to encroach on the family room space a bit? That would free up your pathway and reduce the pinch point in that corner where your fridge currently is. Are you keeping your pantry? I don't know if you've considered something like this. It has two 60" windows.

>>following>>

or...

Here's what I'd do:

Just In case it helps you visualize, here's a photo of our space, which is very similar to what you're looking at. Our kitchen is 22' long, and the island is 10' x 42". We love everything about this layout, especially the two sinks! The only thing I would do differently, especially in your space (and your options already address this) is to wrap around the island seats. 4 in one row without the option of someone at the end to break up the line is too many. This space is luxurious, to be sure, but it is definitely not too big for anyone. :-)

cpartist, we aren't willing to sacrifice a large expanse of windows because we like the view we have. We have thought about putting the cooktop in the location you suggest but there is a ton of plumbing behind that wall and it is not in the budget to move it.

We may add a prep sink on the island.

Thank you for your input.

Specifically, what don't you like about the three options?

backyardfeast, THANK YOU. It is nice to see a space like ours with a similar layout (in reverse) and know that you like it. What size aisles do you have? What is behind the stools? Is it open space?

I know what NKBA recommends, but i don't think we will make it to a 42"-4*" aisle. Although I know I will be blasted for saying this, we have been in showrooms with 36" aisles and didn't really mind them. Would we like more space? Yes. Would we be willing to sacrifice the extra space if we need to? Probably.

The issue with a showroom’s 36” aisles is that you were not living and cooking in them with other family members in the space. You are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars and purposely build in dysfunction and pinch points if you go with 36” aisles; most people gut remodel to remove dysfunction/pinch points.

Sorry I have to agree with others. 36" aisles are too narrow.

We have a large room that is open behind the seats/island, so it is different. Our aisles are 48", and we were moving from a tiny kitchen with smaller aisles and thought 48" might be over kill when we were fisrt first told that was standard. But we are 3 adult cooks sharing the space, so it is very functional for us.

There are a lot of considerations for aisle widths. You need space for appliance doors to open, and you need space to stand in front of those doors when they're open, especially the oven. You need space to be able to get an old fridge or range or dishwasher OUT of your kitchen if one dies, and to be able to get a new one in. Ideally, you want someone to be able to pass by if the dishwasher is open, or for someone to be cooking at the range and someone else to be able to walk comfortably behind them.

48" means that there is room for a drawer in the island to be fully extended while the diswhasher dishwasher door is open across from it. 42" would be my minimum. 36" might mean you can stand at a counter comfortably, but that's it. In our tiny kitchen we had 42" aisles, and while it was comfortable enough for one person to work, we had to constantly get out of each other's others way for anything more than one person to work.

Remember, too, that even though everyone talks in terms of 24" cabinets, etc, these aren't the finished dimensions. Your countertops will be 25 1/2" on both sides of the aisle; your fridge doors will stick out past the cabinets another few inches so that they can open freely, and even a counter-depth fridge is usually 27-28" deep before you account for the doors or the handles beyond that. The recommended 48" is from cabinet base to cabinet base, but we are less than that counter to counter. Consider those extra encroachments in your 36" and you'll see why most here won't want you to go narrower than 42".

Maybe this will help you understand the comments you are receiving:

Kitchen Design Best Practice/Guidelines FAQ Threads:

FAQ: Kitchen Work Zones, What Are They?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500762/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

FAQ: Aisle Widths, Walkways, Seating Overhangs, Work/Landing Space etc

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500771/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

FAQ: How Do I Plan For Storage?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500787/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

.

Asking for layout help:

FAQ: How Do I Ask For Layout Help & What Information Should I Include?

• https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500789/faq-how-do-i-ask-for-layout-help-what-information-should-i-include

.

Humorous discussion of workflow and other layout topics:

Looking for layout help? Memorize this first.

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

.

Contrary to what some may think, the 2D layouts are excellent at seeing aisle widths, workspace, etc.

3D layouts are too distorted to give you the correct information for aisles, etc. (Distortion is inherent when trying to show 3 dimensions on a 2 dimensional surface.}

3D layouts work best at showing how the cabinets, etc., will look. They provide the aesthetic view, not the technical/layout view.

You want the 48" aisles with the size of your growing family and how you want to use the kitchen space. I hear your priorities being lots of windows to enjoy the view and a large island for hanging, eating, and homework. I know you've had the fridge in the corner next to the pantry, and all your designers keep putting appliances there, but that is what is causing your pinch point in your traffic area.

In this one, I've kept the right window but reduced it to 29" to center the hood between windows. I moved your dishwasher out of the prep space between the sink and cooktop, The island is 41" x 8' 10" (dependent on decorative panels). This plan is working with the appliance placement and space parameters, not necessarily cabinet choices. If windows were the most important to you, I'd decide how many and how large then tweek. If you do not want the cost to move plumbing, you could work with keeping the sink under the 36" window like the first plan I posted above. It can always be tweeked to reduce the size of that run. Make adjustments within a space plan that keeps the aisles. It is doable.

cpartist, we aren't willing to sacrifice a large expanse of windows because we like the view we have.

Then make the windows larger than I showed. Ditch the end cabinet to the right of the fridge and move the fridge and ovens down to make the window larger.

We have thought about putting the cooktop in the location you suggest but there is a ton of plumbing behind that wall and it is not in the budget to move it.

Have you checked to see what it would actually cost to move the plumbing? Moving plumbing is not as expensive as you might believe.

We may add a prep sink on the island.

If you have your cooktop and your cleanup sink on the same wall, putting a prep sink opposite on the island will just make your aisle more crowded when more than one person is working in the space.

Specifically, what don't you like about the three options?

The best layouts follow Ice/Water/Stone/Fire. What do I mean. We take food out of our pantry/fridge and bring it to the sink to wash. After washing it, we move it to the counter (usually between the cooktop and sink or next to the sink to prep) and then bring the food to the cooktop to cook.

In the first layout, your placement of fridge/sink/cooktop doesn't follow the above Ice/Water/Stone/Fire. Additionally your dishwasher is in your prep zone so if someone needs to put something in the dishwasher while someone else is prepping, it means moving out of the way. Plus while you have 44" there to prep, considering the length of your kitchen, you could have a longer stretch to prep.

Additionally all your lower cabinets are rather narrow. Trust me when I say larger cabinets (ideally up to 42" wide) work better for storage.

Lastly you don't have room for the ovens where you have them because as mentioned you need a minimum of 42" for a working aisle if you're a single butt kitchen. However if you ever intend to have more than one person working in the kitchen at a time, you ideally need a 48" aisle. Move the ovens from where you have them and you'll have the room for your island and a 48" aisle.

While ice/water/stone/fire is better in the second layout, one of the major problems is your way too small cabinets. Once again, the dishwasher is in your prep zone.

I'm not sure where your oven is in the second layout.

Your best space is the corner to the right of the cooktop. What that means is that will become a junk drop off spot since without a water source, it's not a prep space.

And again you have cabinets that impinge into your aisles on the backside of your island.

"...we have been in showrooms with 36" aisles and didn't really mind them."

That's just walking around, not actually working in them -- and working in them with more than one person. You cannot compare what you see/do in a showroom with what will actually work in real life. Showrooms are setup to sell cabinets, not provide functional layouts, etc.

Even mocking up at home doesn't work unless (1) you mock up with actual sizes (width, depth, height) and (2) you actually work in it for awhile.

Human beings can adapt to anything -- good or bad. And, once we've adapted, we tell ourselves, "it's OK, we can live with it/do it again". BUT, that's "making do". If you're going to spend all this money (and it will be a lot), why would you put in a "make do" Kitchen? Shouldn't you be trying to get the best designed layout you possibly can, given your space?

Houzz, Cabinet Salespeople, and many (but not all) Kitchen Designers are all about selling you as many cabinets, appliances, etc., that they can so they make as much money as possible, not necessarily about giving you something that will actually work for you. In fact, in many cases they won't tell you when something really isn't functional b/c they're afraid of losing a sale! Face it, they don't have to work in the Kitchen -- they sell it to you, install it, take your money, and walk away -- they'll never have to work in it or even see it ever again!

.

In the end, it's up to you and, whatever you decide, you will have to live with it. We're trying to give you as much advice as possible (after all, you did ask) so you can make informed decisions -- you will not be able to later ask "why didn't someone tell me?", b/c we did.

Good luck on your project.

I've read through, sorry I can't read the dimensions on the phone; but, here's my .02 cents.

We shaved inches off the aisles. Between island and stove 41". Short side between fridge amd island 41" other end with stool and wall 59". None are optimal, but close. Island is 30" finished not standard 36. We mocked up and lived with it.

Had no idea MIL would need to move in....glad we had the extra inches! She's been here almost 3 years and at 100 needs a walker. I can be at the sink and she can pass by to get her water on the way to the table

The future is never clear. Resale may also be impacted if things are too narrow. Try shaving inches here and there. Oooo, our island overhang is also 11.25 on one side, my 6'2" hubby is fine. Our 6'8" friend uses the 15" side.

Don't be afraid to change things up a little. The closer to optimal the better

Regarding seating overhangs. Sometimes what is "OK" is based on (1) leg length or (2) making do and not complaining/letting others know it's not comfortable. Leg length is a key component when determining what will actually be comfortable. Cases in point:

Leg length:

• We have a 15-inch overhang
• I'm 5'10" and I have close to the same leg length as my DH at 6'5"
• I can barely fit -- my knees hit the back of the cabinet under the overhang
• Ditto my 6'0" DD
• My DH cannot sit there without straddling the cabinets and won't sit there for long
• My 6'7" DS never sits there b/c his legs are so long (38" plus inseam and thin -- imagine trying to find jeans that fit someone very tall and thin!!)

Making do:

My brother and his wife are prime examples of this. They had only about 10" of overhang and originally said everything was "fine"....until one day I visited them and all the stools were gone. My SIL (finally) admitted that the stools were a waste -- no one sat there b/c it was too uncomfortable. (They're nowhere near as tall a family as we are -- they range from 5'4" to 6'2".)

Years later when they remodeled, they eliminated the island altogether when they realized how much more open their Kitchen was and how much easier it was to navigate around the Kitchen without having to run around the island (the island was a barrier b/w the sink and the refrigerator.)

They finally admitted they had shoehorned in an island where one really didn't fit.

(I did suggest a movable cart if they missed the island -- but they love all the open space now!)

Ok, so here is what I am going to try based upon many suggestions:

1. I am using OPTION #2 as the basis for my changes (the one with the fridge on the left of the long wall).
2. try to keep the windows where they are currently placed.
3. move the cook top so it is centered between the windows.
4. make the work aisle larger (even if it means decreasing the depth of the cabinets on the island).
5. move the dishwasher to the left of the sink and the garbage to the right of the sink, possibly increasing the size of the sink.
6. possibly add a prep sink on the right side of the island.
7. put the microwave to the left of the double oven on the short wall on the right.
8. possibly eliminate the shallow pantry, if necessary.
9. make drawer cabinets wider where possible.

Do you think #2 is the best option to work from? (Although that one moved the bay window/double hung windows to the right about two feet.)

Did I cover the majority of the issues with the plan?

Quite honestly, if I can't make this work, I don't know what else to try. The current kitchen we have is AWFUL and too small for how we work. And there is no way to place appliances in it that doesn't create choke points.

This photo shows the plumbing that would need to move if we want to move windows into the space between the current windows. It is quite a bit of plumbing to move.

Also, for any engineers/builders out there...

Can 2"x4"s be turned 90 degrees in a load bearing wall to gain an extra 1.5"? I know it can be done elsewhere but I don't know how that affects a load. I know I need a definitive answer from our building code office, but just curious what you think/know.

Hmmm. Sounds like the last plan I posted. In that plan, the right edge of each window is where your current windows start. Keeping the right window at 36” will reduce your prep space to the left of the cooktop when centering it. I also increased your sink cab to 36”.

If you are concerned with moving the plumbing have you considered trying to keep it there? Or is it a priority to have the sink in front of the big windows?

It is a priority to put the sink under the big windows and away from the short wall.

:)

When I say I am concerned about the cost of moving plumbing, I don't mean moving the sink. I mean moving everything that comes down from the second floor behind that wall. Please see the photos above.

What type of exterior do you have? Dodging the vertical plumbing can be done by making the window on the right narrower. Thus moving the centre towards the right too. (Completely removing it would be a waste of natural light.)

What is the exact location of the plumbing—distance from the right wall? So your kitchen is completely torn up right now?

bbtrix / I Miss Sophie ... Here are the measurements of the plumbing between the two windows. I measured from trim to trim. From the right wall, the left side of the trim of the smaller window is 69.5".

Our kitchen is not totally torn apart but there are some pieces missing. This photo was taken when we removed the soffit and pushed that piping up between the joists. (And after two water leaks upstairs.)

rinqreation ... we have a vinyl exterior on this part of the house.

Daniel Parcells ... it is a 2"x4" wall. All I can tell is is that the 3" main drain was there with the old kitchen. There was a laminate back splash on the wall in the current kitchen.

I can understand why you want to solve your dilemmas ASAP! I’ve just read through your “take 2” thread and I really like the plans Buehl and mama last suggested, and your option 5 on that thread. Is there a reason you no longer like the placement of your ovens and fridge in your option five?

Considering the cost for rerouting all of the plumbing, would you consider moving the the hood exhaust to the left of the drain pipe?

bbtrix / I Miss Sophie: I can understand why you want to solve your dilemmas ASAP! I’ve just read through your “take 2” thread and I really like the plans Buehl and mama last suggested, and your option 5 on that thread. Is there a reason you no longer like the placement of your ovens and fridge in your option five?

Buehl - We Want SW Back Unconditionally: Buehl's is very close to what I am working on now. We are having a tough time deciding if we want to sacrifice the smaller window we currently have.

My option #5 from "take 2" is very close to #1 above, minus the prep sink. The reason I don't want to go in that direction is that without an appliance or cabinet that sits on the counter, there is no end to the kitchen. I like more of a finished look. Also, it moves the fridge farther away from the sink. But I love the look of the appliance wall.

mama goose_gw zn6OH 's plans were nice but we want the series of windows on the long wall and want the sink underneath them.

More later...