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Paul Barden’s Rose Varieties Are Becoming Rare

rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago

I am writing this post following some correspondence that I have had with Paul that began a couple of months back. Originally, I contacted Paul to discuss the idea of placing some of his rose varieties in the new Rose Garden at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens in the Southern Okanagan of British Columbia, in order to display his work. Paul was pleased with the idea, but when we began to discuss sources for his roses, he told me that he had lost many of his roses in his personal collection to a very bad winter in 2015. He also advised me that Rogue Valley Roses no longer has some of his varieties and they are not regularly propagating others, so his roses are becoming difficult to find.

Hence this post, which is in fact a request to help gather wood for cuttings which will be propagated as a first step to ensure that Paul’s Roses are not lost. Paul has given me permission to write this post and supports our idea to build a secure collection of mother plants to make certain there is a source for these beautiful varieties. My partner in this project and to give credit where credit is most certainly due, is John Prendergast, john_ca on the forum, who in fact will be doing the propagating of cuttings at his property in California.

Now to the details of what we wish to do and how we foresee it will work. We are asking for help from anyone who has mature plants of any of Paul’s varieties as listed in the second last paragraph below and is willing to help, to take appropriate cuttings within the next month and send them to John. It is most likely that the places where roses are at the right stage for taking cuttings are California and other Southwestern States. If you have appropriate plants and would like to help, please PM John through this site. You can do that by going to one of John’s posts, clicking on his screen name and then clicking message on the page that comes up. We would ask that only those who are keen, willing and able to assist, preferably with more than one needed variety to contact John. For some reason, we suspect there may be a fairly significant response to this post and we do not want to overwhelm poor John if we can avoid it.

John already has plants of Jerri Jennings, Mel’s Heritage, Oshun, Janet Inada and Won Fang Yon, so we do not need wood from those varieties. Paul has plants of Ellen Toffelmeir, Carolin Supinger, Unconditional Love and Gallicandy, so those too are accounted for. We also know of a soon to open commercial source, Hummingbird Roses, for Golden Buddha, October Moon, and Pam's Choice. Mindy, the owner, has offered to work with John.

The list of other varieties that we are particularly wishing to acquire is: Treasure Trail, Licorice Tea, Allegra, Marianne, Siren’s Keep, Barbara Oliva, Hettie, Ettiene, Mel Hulse and Joyce Barden. We know there are others as well.

The final stage of the project will be to approach two further reliable Canadian commercial growers with whom John and I have worked previously; see “A new source of vintage David Austin Roses”; and ask if they are interested in preserving and offering Paul Barden's Roses as part of their collections.

Please wish us luck and help us out if you can.

Cheers, John, Rick and Paul

Comments (63)

  • K S 8b Seattle
    2 years ago

    That is great news about Treasure Trail. If anyone knows of a US source for this rose please tell me!

  • soncna 9a Slovenia
    2 years ago

    On top of my wish list is Mel`s heritage. Is there any hope it will be available in Europe?

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  • Paul Barden
    2 years ago

    @soncna: given the severe contraction of the rose industry in the last decade, its very difficult to persuade rose growers to adopt "fringe" varieties into their catalog, because they generally want as many "bread and butter" (high volume) selections as possible. It was difficult to get any nursery to add my roses to their inventory in 2009, and its far more difficult now. The odds of getting any of these roses into a European catalog is very slim, I would think.

    However, that doesn't mean you can't import from the USA.....

  • subk3
    2 years ago

    I have a 5-6 year old Marianne. I know nothing about doing cuttings, but being about 100 miles north of Pat_bama I would assume if her weather isn't favorable for her to get one in the next month neither is mine. I came here today to ask advice on how to move her only to read this. Surely there is another source for her?!

    My dilemma is this bush is slated to be moved in the next week while it's still dormant from the center of my vegetable garden where it's taking the place over to what is likely a less hospitable spot. I've kept putting off moving her the last couple years--mostly because she is my only once bloomer and quite frankly I have no idea how to manage her without losing a blooming season. So she is a completely unkempt monster in a spot where she has so frustrated the hubby he's threatened to do murder in the middle of the night.


    Can someone point me to some information as to how to prune her so I can facilitate a detente between her and the hubby? Obviously I need to keep her where she is until we are sure there are other options...





  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    2 years ago

    I agree, I would not risk moving her. I might put a fence around her and declare her a national treasure. I might buy my husband a video gizmo or some Tesla product and bribe him. My husband says the rose will bring beneficial insects into the vegetable garden.

  • nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska
    2 years ago

    I have a reasonably mature Marianne and two Song of the Stars as well as plants of Rook and Umbra that can surely take cuttings if you like, since they don't lose canes over the winter. My Dakota Redwing and (saying this one quietly so I don't jinx it...) Little Grey Pearl have survived the winter for a second time now, though they don't have any surviving cane in the spring. I'd have to take cuttings later in the summer and for LGP mine still might not have enough viable cane.

    Paul, I'm presuming we have your permission to send such cuttings to John for this purpose? These roses are still under patent so we all want to make sure to honor your rights here. We are ALL about making sure these roses can be sold more widely (I join the drooling masses at waiting for my own Carolyn Supinger), but we want to do so with your blessings. You've chimed in here so I presume this is also your goal for helping to keep your wonderful roses circulating - kudos to all the folks that are making this happen!

    Let me know if you need these. Only Marianne was on your list and you said you want sets of cuttings for more than just one rose. Obviously for me those cuttings are still months away as we have to wait for the snow to melt.

    Cynthia

  • Paul Barden
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    "Paul, I'm presuming we have your permission to send such cuttings to John for this purpose? These roses are still under patent so we all want to make sure to honor your rights here."

    Cynthia,

    Yes, absolutely - the community has my permission, and is encouraged to share wood for propagation purposes (My named varieties only - there are some un-named/proprietary roses I have shared with a few people that I do not wish to have widely distributed). Regrettably, Rogue Valley Roses has, for reasons unknown, become less than reliable as a source for my hybrids. (I myself have bought one of my roses to get a copy back into my possession, and it is obviously a mislabeled plant. I wish I could report otherwise, alas) I now wish I had made more of an effort 10 years ago to pursue other nurseries as well, to get these roses into more hands for distribution. Maybe it will happen now?

    Thank you for your efforts, everyone. I appreciate it.

    Paul

    PS: none of my roses is patented - I never pursued it because it seemed obvious I would never recoup the cost of doing so.

  • PRO
    Hummingbird Roses
    2 years ago

    Paul


    I hope to help make that happen!

    With all of our efforts, I don’t see why we can’t.


    Mindy

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    2 years ago

    I really think Janet's age is an explanation for any RVR issue. People are not up to what they wish they were up to often at the higher ages.

  • User
    2 years ago

    Soncna in slovenia,I know how you feel. I,too,here in Italy would love to get several roses that are only available in the USA. I even began investingating the possibility of importing Kordes' Quicksilver,but decided definitively against it. According to someone on this forum,the nursery that I found that carries it and does ship to Europe is located in an area that does have Rose Rosette Disease -a terrible, fatal disease for roses, transmitted by mites,that at least for now has not showed up here in Europe. So importing a rose from them would be very, very risky in many ways; you could risk importing this disease here to Europe. I think Germany simply does not permit importation; here in Italy they are very slack; I don't know about Slovenia. What's more, I don't think any nursery can guarentee that your plant will be delivered promptly; it could wind up languishing in customs for a long time. The shipping costs are very high, and plus you have to provide a sanitary certificate, that at least here in Italy is very expensive as well. So you risk spending a LOT of money, only to wind up possibly with a stressed out,weakened, or even dead plant. So, if you do decide to try to import, be VERY, VERY careful that you purchase the plant from a nursery in an area which definitely does NOT have Rose Rosette Disease. As I said before,I decided against trying it.

  • Alana8aSC
    2 years ago

    I've been reading this post with interest. There are still a few of Paul's Rose's that I am trying to get. Ellen Toffelmeir being at the top of the list to still be acquired. I do have Allegra, but it is young, and honestly I haven't had a bloom yet, it's new, so this Spring, I hope to know , and make sure , that they are all right. I've had ID problems to many times to say for sure that I have the right rose.

  • Paul Barden
    2 years ago

    Alana, PM me for availability info on 'Ellen Tofflemire', pls.

  • Alana8aSC
    2 years ago

    PM sent Paul! Thank you and let me know if you get it!

  • Alana8aSC
    2 years ago

    I just realized, as long as my Allegra is right, I may have a plant for you in the fall. I had a peice break off of mine last fall, and I just stuck it in the ground near the rose. It's still green, so there's a good chance it may take. I'll let you know if it roots and post pictures when mine blooms to verify that its the right rose.

  • Lisa Adams
    2 years ago

    It’s been so long since I’ve sent a message through Houzz, that I’m having trouble finding a way to message John. I used to see a “send message” option when I went to someone’s profile page. Forgive my ignorance, but I’m not seeing a way to message John when I go to his profile. I have Sirens Keep, and I’m in So CA. Lisa

  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Hello Alana,

    I will wait to see what Paul has to say, but unless he says otherwise, I wonder if you might send your young Allegra plant, if it survives, to John P. in the fall. Allegra is one of Paul's Gallica crosses that we would particularly like to acquire for placement in the Garden at Summerland for posterity's sake.

    If you could send a bare root - rooted plant to John Prendergast in the fall, then he will grow it on and send it North in the spring with other roses we are acquiring. Once that is done, and the plants mature; with Paul's permission; we will distribute wood to nurseries that he approves in the hope that we can put many of his rare creations back into commerce for some time to come.

    Cheers, Rick

  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Hi Lisa, this is a bit surreal, When I posted the original message, there was a message option on John's page, that is not there now. I just looked and I get the same blank as you do. So, please message me and I will copy the message and send it on to John, an email address would help, I will copy you on the message when I forward it to John and hopefully link you up.

    Siren's Keep is another of the varieties that I personally had hoped to keep in commerce. I grew it in Ontario, but lost is in my move. It is a rare treasure with gorgeous OGR style red blooms that are complex and gorgeous, with Gallica, Hybrid Perpetual and Austin reds in the breeding. It is a modern repeat blooming OGR tour de force.

    Cheers, Rick

  • Alana8aSC
    2 years ago

    I can sure do that! I'll message back on here this Spring and fall.

  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL
    2 years ago

    I got goosebumps as I read about what all is being done to save these roses. What a testament to this amazing community!

    The one little flower I had on my baby Licorice Tea was a marvel. I’m so in awe of the folks who can create such artistry, and thank you all from the bottom of my heart. :-)

  • chris209 (LI, NY Z7a)
    2 years ago

    Crested Damask has not been mentioned but I do grow if you are interested in obtaining cuttings. As well as Rook, Song of the Stars and Marianne, but it seems like you have already had offers on those.


  • john_ca
    2 years ago

    Apologies to all who have tried to message me. My message function was working fine a week ago and somehow it got turned off. I have gone into my profile and my message function is now turned all to accept all messages. Sorry for the inconvenienced. John

  • Alana8aSC
    2 years ago

    I still cannot message you. Just follow you.

  • Nola z5aWI
    2 years ago

    Hello, Could you give any update on how this wonderful project is going? Did you get all of the cuttings that you desired? Wishing you all the best!

  • chris209 (LI, NY Z7a)
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Unfortunately from my interactions it doesn't appear to be going very well. I submitted a handful of cuttings of Barden roses along with other rarities I grow to Mindy at Hummingbird Roses. On following up with her recently I learned that only a few varieties she'd received managed to root. These included Mel's Heritage, Rook, and Oshun. It's a start at least.

    -Chris

  • Nola z5aWI
    2 years ago

    Thank you Chris, it is a start! How kind of you to send those! I'm hoping for Joyce and Marianne to be a choice in the future! :)

  • jerijen
    2 years ago

    Do you still need 'Mel's Heritage'??? Let me know.

  • chris209 (LI, NY Z7a)
    2 years ago

    Jeri, Mel’s Heritage is one of the ones they’ve got.


    i actually didn’t provide Oshun cuttings so someone else must have. I supplied cuttings for Crested Damask, Mel’s Heritage, Rook, Song of the Stars and Marianne.

  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    Original Author
    2 years ago


    Hello Folk,


    I have been off line for the past month or so for a number of reasons and only looked at the ARF this morning for the first time in a long while. Life cannot always be about roses unfortunately, at least sometimes :)


    I just saw that this thread was live on the board again, so I am going to try to update it. It has been a month or more since John, Mindy and I last corresponded about this project, so I have gone over those emails and my other records in order to compile a list of what we collectively have. Below is the list of what to the best of my knowledge and belief we have in the ground at John's, Mindy's and my own gardens. The list includes


    Ellen Toffelmeir, Galicandy, Unconditional Love, Oshun, Janet Inada; Jerri Jennings, Mel's Heritage, Tajique, Castle Bravo, Carolin Supinger, Si Plus Plus; and unnamed variety that is a cross of Cristata and a Gallica that Paul calls Crested Thingy and Treasure Trail, (I have three TT rooted and the mother plant). We have been trying to root cuttings rooting of Umbra, Rook, and Marrianne. Unfortunately it is too early to tell if these last few will take yet.


    Some of these varieties John and I already had, some I received directly from Paul and took to John's place last April and others we have rooted from cuttings acquired from Forum Folk. That is a total of 14 varieties in the ground and three more we hope will make it. Others that we still hope to acquire cuttings for are: Allegra, Crested Damask, Dakota Red Wing, Siren's Keep and Joyce Barden as well as any others anyone cares to offer.


    So, all in all, we seem to be pretty successful thus far. Come spring, we will be shipping new plants between the three of us. John currently has the largest variety germ plasm bank. I will be creating a second bank and display garden here in Canada at the Summerland Ornamental Gardens for hardier varieties, particularly the more cold hardy Moss, Austin and Gallica crossbred varieties. Mindy's Hummingbird Roses will be the main distribution nursery for the varieties we have and hope to acquire. At least that is the plan up to now. We also hope to approach at least one other boutique rose nursery, not certain which yet, when we have plants to share, to try to get a couple of reliable sources for Paul's very special roses. Of course, growing roses from cuttings takes time, especially for Mindy and I who live in colder climates. So it will be a season or two yet before the project has actual plant material to offer.


    I also see that the thread on Palatine as a new source of early and rare English Roses is back high on the board. Just a reminder, Rene told John that they would be posting their list of available varieties and numbers on their website on December first. It is my understanding that because of the very limited numbers this year, there will be a limit of one plant per variety per person. These are of course grafted plants which I personally like because of the increased vigour for those of us growing roses in the cooler climates.


    I looked this morning and there is nothing on the Palatine site yet, so I guess December 1st it is. I have been privileged to have been privy to the list and I will tell you there are likely going to be 62 varieties on the list. Many very rare an long unavailable. We owe John, Rene, and Summer in particular and a few other very devoted English Rose connaisseurs a debt of gratitude for making this exciting event happen. Please support Palatine for doing this and good luck in the vintage rose lottery of the winter.


    Cheers, Rick



  • Paul Barden
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Rick, I now have a piece of 'Dakota Redwing' rooted and growing happily in the Cattleya house, so that will be available this coming spring (or sooner, if going to California). I also have a plant of 'Pink Phoenix' available for your archive project, if that is of interest.

    rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a thanked Paul Barden
  • sabalmatt_tejas
    2 years ago

    I have a very vigorous plant of ‘Dakota Redwing’ and can send cuttings in the future if you need them for the project.

    rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a thanked sabalmatt_tejas
  • rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a
    Original Author
    2 years ago

    Thanks so much for the offer Paul! We will have to do some planning to figure out how to get the plants you are offering and where they are to go. I will send you an email today.


    Tejas, thank you very much for the kind offer. Dakota Redwing is a great beauty. I will check with Mindy and John and see if they might be able to work something out with you when the time is right next spring. The fact that the growing seasons differ depending on where everyone is located can complicate the timing for taking and striking cuttings. In any event, it would likely be sometime between late April and late June, when the timing lines up depending on where we need the cuttings.


    Happy Thanksgiving to all you American Rose Lovers. Thanksgiving was celebrated here in Canada in early October and winter is coming here.


    Cheers, Rick

  • PRO
    Hummingbird Roses
    2 years ago

    Tejas,

    Would love some cuttings of your vigorous Dakota Redwing plant in the spring. Thank you!

    I've not been on Houzz lately, but Rick alerted me to your kind offer.

    You can email me directly at hummingbirdroses1@gmail.com.

    Mindy

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    2 years ago

    You also could order Dakota Redwing from RVRs as it is in stock ATM.

  • verdantcroft
    2 years ago

    Yes, someone's lit a fire under RVR.

  • Joe Moose, Zone 9A
    2 years ago

    Verdantcroft, I'm being cynical, but probably to get a profit yet.


    Mr. Barden, I honestly hope we will be able to get your roses back into circulation.


    Best of luck to everyone involved in this awesome project!

  • Alana8aSC
    last year

    Hey Paul,


    I just wanted to let you know I haven't forgotten about you. That Allegra that broke off didn't take. I am also waiting to make sure it's correct, since we never know until they bloom and they don't have the greatest track record.


    Also you may not have a update yet, but would love to hear how this is going!


    Your roses love it here, and are all doing so well.

  • jjpeace (zone 5b Canada)
    last year

    Thanks for letting us know of this great cause. I am not familiar with Mr. Barden roses and will look him up.

  • berrypie7
    last year

    October Moon is a rose I hope to get, what a wonderful creation.

  • Perma n’ Posies/9A FL
    last year

    My Licorice Tea grew quite nicely this year, so if you need this one, just let me know. :-)

  • Nola z5aWI
    last year

    Can anyone give an update on this project? Thank you!

  • Lisa Adams
    last year

    I’d love hear how it’s going as well. I was SO disappointed when Paul told me I’d been sold a once blooming rose of Paul’s creation, under the name Sirens Keep. I’d still love to get the real Sirens Keep. Hope springs eternal! Lisa

  • biff72
    last year

    Lisa Adams, I got a rose named sirens keep this yr from rogue valley, do u think it's a once bloomer?

  • chris209 (LI, NY Z7a)
    last year

    Biff72, I think what Lisa is saying is that she ordered Siren's Keep, but was sent the wrong rose by the nursery. Hopefully you received the correct rose.

  • Lisa Adams
    last year

    The rose I was sent came from a different nursery. It was located in FL, IIRC. The tag said ‘Siren’s Keep’, and it looked close enough to my untrained eye for me to believe I had the correct rose. The first hint of a problem was that it would bloom gloriously in the VERY early spring (So CA, zone 10a), and never repeat. I thought it might have the dreaded rose midge, and that once the temps increased, the midge were preventing reblooming. Eventually, someone else posted her ‘Siren’s Keep’ pictures as well. Paul told her that her ‘Siren’s Keep’ was NOT Siren’s Keep, but a once blooming rose with a “code name”. It was something like a combo of letters and numbers. I’ve forgotten what it was. I then asked Paul about my ‘Siren’s Keep’. He confirmed that mine was the same rose that the other poster had purchased as ‘Siren’s Keep’. It turns out we had both purchased our “NOT Siren’s Keeps“ from the same nursery. I should have contacted the nursery and referred them to Paul Barden’s observations. I wish I had, but it’s probably too late now. In my zone Roses bloom most of the year, and my space is at a premium. I still have the rose in question, but really would rather find the real ‘Siren’s Keep’.

    Here’s a picture of the rose I received as Siren’s Keep. It’s lovely, but only blooms once for a short time. Lisa


  • berrypie7
    9 months ago

    October Moon looks so exceptionally pretty on the HMF reviews. When RVR notified me it was back in stock I didn't get October Moon , now it's out again. Some roses just beckon.

  • The Rose Geek
    5 months ago

    I have been dreaming that there would be another source for Barden roses. Please keep me posted!

  • Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
    5 months ago

    Yes I'd love to try one as well.

  • Aaron Rosarian Zone 5b
    5 months ago

    I hope Connie Lohn makes a reappearance--it's *so* pretty and I'm eager to try a moss rose that's remontant.

  • ColleeninMHD 6a
    26 days ago

    Has anyone looked at Raft Island rose list this year? I feel like he had an Allegra before.