1970s major renovation: how to budget?

6 years ago

Hello! We are looking at buying an early 1970s home in Apex, NC and would do a significant remodel, as this should be our home for at least 10 years. It's around 2,400 sq feet split-level, 3 bedrooms and 2 baths, with lots of space tied up in a large family room and second large "living room" off the kitchen.

The place is very dated. But, roof is in good shape and is under 10 years old, it has a fairly new tankless water heater, gas heating, and seemingly good bones.

We want to redo the kitchen, add a powder room, remodel both bathrooms, redo the floors throughout, expand some windows... including making the back of the house very open with large windows on much of the wall.

The big windows in back, knocking down a wall adjacent to the kitchen to really open the space up, and redoing that kitchen are what would make the home most desirable for us.

We would also screen in the deck, and refresh the exterior... probably by painting the brick.

We know this is a big project, but we don't know how big. Any tips on how to think about budgeting it?

Designer/builders near us welcome to message me, we know we'll need professional help.

Thanks!

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6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

200K-350K. Paid for out of savings. Or buy the house that already has what you want.

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Comments (16)

Diane
6 years ago
The ball park from other poster is likely not far off. There are so many variables in your list of wants. What type of finishes will be used; carpet or hardwood floors, custom windows or big box store? How handy are you and how much labor will you put into the project, what municipal costs will you have for permits, etc? Taking down walls is a place I would want a professional as to load bearing or not and how to reroute any of the electrical and or plumbing that might be there. The cost of an architect is often well worth the money spent. We have done several homes the last two complete rebuilds an important point is money spent on the unseen items is often more of a budget than anticipated. To get better advice here post photos and a hand drawn floor plan.
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Hi, this is my first time posting, and if it is too long, I apologize. This is about our odyssey in creating our kitchen on very limited funds. We wanted top quality while having little extra cash to put away. We ended up purchasing one piece at a time, while looking at Craigslist/Boston Globe online/etc. I researched which were the high quality cabinet brands (here, thank you all!), and bought a set someone was removing. We found it online in the Boston Globe. Very high quality, lots of pullouts, and if you are at all creative, this can give you a good opportunity to think outside the box. Our Quakermaid cabinets have lots and lots of features (pull outs, 4 drawer stack, dividers, lazy susans, etc.), we made sure that the set we purchased had more than we could use of lots of different sizes, (which has been very helpful in fitting as well as in creating a recycle center elsewhere in our home.) We paid $2,500 for 19 of them, with extra fillers included. We have installed a plate rack, created a baking center (by cutting down a cabinet which had strange side cut outs - we leveled the top and have a lower surface to roll out dough,) and are creating a kick drawer under one of the cabinets, per instructions on Ikea Hacker. I check CraigsList every morning and evening for about 20 minutes. I was the second caller on some gorgeous Oceanside Glass Tile (Veil blend with white, iridescent white, iridescent clear and frosted tiles.) It was left over from a job, and the first person to see it didn't know what she was looking at due to the tile's clear tiles appearing brown on the backing paper) and I paid the outrageous price of $5 a square foot. I still cannot believe that. It was a good thing I checked that morning, as the seller said that he had many, many others call about the tile. Last Saturday I drove 3 hours to pick up just the sink I wanted. 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I appreciate the few constructive comments above, but that isn't what I am particularly looking for. Houzz is a great platform for users to seek design advice and find unique ways to solve them. I totally understand that nobody has the same taste! The point is to give constructive criticism for the betterment of all of our homes and other spaces. I understand that the internet isn't a bland serious place, and I also understand that there is certainly room for humor. The problem is that there is a very thin line between mild humor and plain destructive insults that just do not make that much sense. Yes, I do have 3 larger homes that I am trying to sell off. The main reason is the petroleum crisis up here, leaving many who relied on the industry with larger, "investment" homes that depreciate like a stock market crash. I know that I can hire an architect, and I have hired several, but there is really no harm in asking the internet about it. I currently just am seeking casual advice and creative idea coming from multiple people instead of just one architect's opinion. I am sorry about the confusion here.
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aprilneverends
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
as somebody who remodeled (a smaller) house built either in '68 or 70...

-can contain asbestos. ours did. everywhere. walls, floor..everywhere. which doesn't matter that much-until you remodel. so..as you remodel you abate and gut. you decide where to gut of course..say we left almost all ceilings as they were. I don't remember the exact price..lets say 12K? our house was 1675 sq f..we added so now 1875. we didn't knock out any walls as I didn't want open plan-if anything we added some.

-then we found out the house a) somehow didn't have isulation. at all. b) the black paper on the roof had to be changed and c) asbestos guys cut the new HVAC while abating asbestos (installed by previous homeowner after her asbestos guys cut the old HVAC while abating asbestos found only there..in short don't ask lol)

-when you change windows/doors, you might need additional things..add reinforcement, I don't know. I know that we had. Same with knocking load bearing walls. Same with big changes in electrical/plumbing-here where we're at (CA) codes are very strict and are constantly changing. You'll have to have a very good plan, probably architect (which we didn't have), builder, most likely structural engineer, blueprints for the city, permits pulled, several inspections...you would hardly be able to live in the house during such an extensive remodel..it'll take double time you think it'll take if you're lucky..we were naive and not so lucky, so two years..during which time you'd be majorly preoccupied with this remodel. All free and not so free time would be tied into it.

It'll also cost whatever you think it'll cost multiply X.

On the exact number-hard to say, you'll have to get quotes etc, and it'll be your starting point-but GreenDesign's estimate rings as pretty much it

We didn't take loans, we payed out of pockets(had some other properties sold) plus payed our two mortgages since we were living in the old place while remodeling the new one. Wasn't fun.

I don't know your family-we did everything for ours, we started it all for them, so kids will have rooms, MIL'll have a room...well it went like that-in the end we got a separate condo for MIL, my daughter left for college, etc, etc...in short life went on without waiting for the house to be finished..:)

-It's been a bit more than two years since we moved in, and I still haven't recovered from all that. And we still need to redo hardscaping of the backyard-because we added a bit to the house, and it was all disturbed. Only that will probably cost around 40 K, from what I gather-and we won't do pool, pergolas, barbeque, nothing-just nice hardscaping and a bit of landscaping in a small backyard. And this time, I'll take a landscape designer..was my own designer during our remodel, and it was a full time job. I did it, without big major mistakes-but at what price?

So i highly recommend getting designer on board too.

Only you know your resourses and capabilities, whether it's money or time you can invest or energy level...and time and energy, to me at least right now, are more important than money.

Can you bring a builder you trust with you to the house to look at it, give you some ballpark figure and whether worth it in the first place?

Ask only people who build. Not realtors. Not even me:) I'm just sharing my experience.
poorgirl
6 years ago
Unforeseen costs involved in older homes and renovation in general, wow, unbelievable!
In my opinion (which isn’t much but...)
I think that’s a big reno just because these are good in the house worth approx. 40,000.00 and for only 10 years living. And if you renovated the entire house you may be changing some of those good things anyway.

We are in the mist of ripping an entire bungalow house apart (1000/ft2) and doing what you would like to do. We have been at it for 1 year now , working every weekend we can. We are doing the work ourselves since we can and we both have full time jobs, 2-3 year project doing it this way, difference is we enjoy it, not many people can live in renovation that long and vision the out come.
We put the concept together hired an architect to do the drawings , hired a designer to help out with the colours consulted with engineers for the load bearing wall removal , and here we are. We hire trade where we need to .
We were going to paint the brick and after meeting a few masons, we decided to keep the brick as it gives the house character, my husband took all the brick off the front of the house since we were building a small extension that would give us enough space to add a 3rd bedroom upstairs. We will clad the front with a faux stone in the summer. We also changed the roof line while we were at it and the roof was only 5 years old but we decided we were not going to design the exterior of the house based on the ugly roof colour so we changed the shingle ...unexpected 8,000.00 cost.
My summer job on top of my many other jobs was to clean 700 pieces of brick with a chisel and hammer so that we could reuse the brick at the back of the house which we completely changed, moved windows where there were doors, closed in a window moved the windows out from the soffits , put in lintels, since they didn’t have them , and now in the spring bricking up a door, cutting the brick out of another space and putting the door in a new space. All because we didn’t like the flow that the exterior decks would have had if we left the doors and windows where they were. This was unexpected and not part of the drawings, so we went back to have the drawings redone, and also decided at the same time to change the kitchen design as I didn’t like the flow of it after listening to the professionals on houzz. All Unexpected and more expensive .
We hired a brick mason that I worked with for 2 weekends installing the cleaned brick where needed
We ended up taking out every interior wall (plaster walls) there was no insulation in the walls. We added an extension on the 2 x 4 to create a 2 x 6 construction , lost a few inches but gained more RV

I could go on and on, but the bottom line is that I think you would need to add 25% to your budget for the unexpected. Just the cost from 2x4 insulation to 2x6 insulation is unexpected.
We could have already build a brand new house for the demo work this little house has in it. After pulling out approx. 1000 screws in the old hardwood floors (my job) due to short screws used in the 60’s that didn’t hit the joists, the entire floor squeaked, added counter sunk screws approx. 500 more and now we have decided to rip them all out and glue and screw plywood down . I cant stand squeaks)Loss of time but not money other then the screws. That was my snowy days job.
Unexpected cost, if your doing the work yourself , not so bad , but if you are paying someone to do it, big cost.
Our house happens to warrant the change , as far as I’m concerned, If you ask my husband, I think he would have liked a house with not so much work, or build new (which he originally wanted to do) but that’s what happens when you take on a job and the job becomes so much bigger then what you thought, one again the unexpected. We don’t really call on our friends to come in and help because there is always a pay back and normally its a new kitchen that they would like my husband to build or install, he doesn’t have time for that.
We have spend the year just working on things behind the walls, ripping out walls , all new wiring, panel, plumbing, windows new duct work, structural things that no one knows are there but they need to be there.
So personally i would suggest you think about pouring that type of money, time and commitment into a complete reno . Now if you have the money, don’t have to live in it and just can’t live without that house then its different.
I wake up almost every morning loving my house,
we both get great satisfaction creating this new house its a very big challenge, but this is not for everyone. I can tell you that none of our friends could stay married in this reno.!

Hope this might help in your decision!
roarah
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Unless you are in a market like San Francisco, NYC suburbs, DC suburbs, etc, the average US market does not support such a large renovation unless the house is listed 200,000 under market value.
aprilneverends
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
poorgirl, I have friends that are amazing very capable DYI-ers(sound like you). They live in a different state. They do everything themselves-only very rarely inviting other pros. They live there while they remodel slowly. I think the house is somewhat newer though. They're minimum 2 years at that...great results from what they share..they still haven't started on their kitchen. They've a garage full of expensive tools...all weekends go into that, evenings, etc..they are very handy and they do enjoy it. Well life doesn't wait either..they get sick, old parents get very sick, small kids act out because need more attention..

same was with us. Life happens. If you have a crew working for you-life happens for them too. Emergencies, delays, conflicts, whatnot.

I love the house..my husband who took more time to decide initially, loves it madly..we were able to save a lot of money(but not energy or time) by putting a lot legwork into it, sourcing stuff, hunting vintage..some things I'm proud of, some, I know they're cheaply made and compromise whether my mistake or others' (usually others lol), as I was out of steam and ill by the end and was lucky to remember my own name.

The first question we got from our friends while we remodeled "so..how is your relationship? you and husband, you all right?" lol

yeah..we were all right. Given all that. Still are.

Yes wanted to burn the house to the ground several times..actually wanted to burn both houses..so there was that))
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toddinmn
6 years ago
I second buying one that is already done.
wiscokid
6 years ago
Agreed with roarah, but adding to that the "sentimental value" piece - if it's grandma's or childhood home and you can't bear to part with (and you're getting it for a song or on a land contract or something), then go for it.

What is the value of the house now?

Other factor: if it was built in the 70s, has the electrical panel and service been upgraded to modern electrical needs? Especially a new kitchen? Do you know where the structural beams are and whether or not you can blow out walls without even larger costs?
tartanmeup
6 years ago
"We know this is a big project, but we don't know how big. Any tips on how to think about budgeting it?"

This is the tricky part. It's the unknown that trips you up in a reno. 'What lies beneath" as April and others have illustrated.

Yes, consult builders for estimates but I always suggest an experienced realtor to get an idea of what's being done in your neighbourhood. If ever you sell, your house is being considered among other houses in YOUR neighbourhood, not houses in shelter magazines or on HGTV. It's important not to overbuild for your area. That's money rarely recouped.
aprilneverends
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
I know that while we didn't overbuild at all, at all-we'll never recoup all the money. We just won't.

Unless some mad appreciation happens-but then it has nothing to do with what we did or did not to the house

Mad appreciation does happen sometimes-that's how we sold our property overseas for almost twice and a half as much we paid for it, seven years beforehand. It was a nice house, a very nice house (rather a condo..two story one)-then different renters did a lot of effort to ruin it within 7 years..but bones, layout, and location stayed the same..and I wanted it to be loved..so we sold it as is. But knowing what I know now-that these crazy prices would continue to climb further-I'd hold to it...

My main point-there was nothing especially smart done by me to affect that all. Except for maybe buying a good house in the first place. All the rest just happenned.

Will it happen here? I've no idea. For now, doesn't look like it.
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chocolatebunny123
6 years ago
I will preface this by saying I know nothing about the real estate market in Apex, NC, but off the top of my head, a 2,400 sq ft house that only has 3 bedrooms and 2 baths has a lot of wasted space somewhere.

Several years ago, my mom, a widow at the time, bought a major fixer upper. It was an all brick house in an up-and-coming part of the city (major US city) and the only thing it had going for it was its location (which is obviously something you cannot change). We all thought she was completely nuts, but for whatever reason she fell in love with the house.

She didn't move any walls or add any additional square footage but basically tore nearly everything down to the studs. Everywhere she turned, it was one problem after the next. She budgeted around $75K for all the wanted to do (including finishing the basement) and in the end (about 2 years later) her total came closer to $150K. Yes, almost double her original budget.

Since she worked full time, she hired contractors to do a lot of the work, but she did a lot herself, like painting and tiling. We referred to the house as the money pit. She knew there was likely asbestos (there was, everywhere) but she did not anticipate all the plumbing and electrical needing upgrading. Or the mold issue in the basement. Or the broken sewer pipe in front of the house. I just shook my head every time she'd complain about another issue the contractors found.

She wound up selling a few years later. She could only list her house for around $50-60K more than what she paid for it because that's what the market dictated, even though everything was new. In the end she lost nearly $100K. Even though everyone and their mother warned her at the time, she didn't listen and regrets having put that time and money into such a project.

My husband and I recently finished our basement. A small remodel based on some of the projects I read on this site. But I would never do it again. We wound up spending maybe $15K more than I expected (because I didn't account for some of the things we needed to do before actually finishing the basement, like a new sump pump and having the walls sealed). We lived here during the finishing and because the weather is brutally cold, most of the stuff that was originally downstairs is still in the garage and will be dealt with this spring. I'm tired of my house being in disarray. I just want my life back to "normal". My husband is thrilled with the results; I would have rather moved (and tried to convince him to before we started this project, but I was obviously unsuccessful).

Bottom line is these kind of major remodels take a lot more time (ours took a month longer) and much more money than you think. Unexpected problems that come up are par for the course. And then there's the problem of overbuilding/over improving for your area. My mom was definitely a victim of that and why she could only list her house for what she did.

I'd rather buy a house that had everything I wanted in a heartbeat. I wouldn't even give a fixer upper a second look.
Sandra Grimsley
6 years ago
I can only say after one year renovating a 1700 sf home that was in great shape structurally and electrically, you need to multiply your budget by 3 and add 6 months to the time frame. One thing will lead to another and if don’t plant to touch every area of the house, you will before it’s over. Look for something else unless the location is perfect and you plan to live there for 20 years. Good luck....you’ll need it!
tartanmeup
6 years ago
There's much to be said for fixing up your house to be the home of your life and dreams, April. None of us know the future and for some people, real estate is not their whole nest egg. And by overbuilding, I mean overbuilding. A McMansion in a sea of modest builds for example.
wildauddie
6 years ago
We are doing a remodel of a similar scale and I agree with others, it’ll be 300k give or take. Could be more if you go higher end. Unless you’re in a hot market, it’s going to cost more than the house is worth on market pricing. For us that meant using what equity we had, unconventional loans, and savings. It’s worth it to us because we don’t plan to move and have a large family. So you are right to value your feelings here. If you feel like we do, then there is a value in those feelings and it is ok to throw your money into a project that doesn’t add up to financial profit.

Financial suggestion, see if you can get some green energy loans. I was able to get state subsidized loans that didn’t need equity by making a few tweaks to qualify my project. I’m in a different state from you. So ask your state.
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Anglophilia
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
So much depends on the neighborhood and the house itself. It is VERY easy to over-build a house, and even easier to over-build a neighborhood. HGTV is far from realistic about this!

We knew when we bought our house in 1984, that we could not over-build the neighborhood but we could over-build the house. We added square feet to help with that. And we've done work to the house over the past 34 years, a bit at a time.

Will I get my money out of this house someday? Oh yes, but that's only because we bought when local real estate prices were very low, and now they are very high in my neighborhood PLUS I have lived in this house for over 34 years. Very few people live in a house that long.

The last thing you want to do is spend $150,000 remodeling a house "cheaply" (ie cheap finishes) when you really needed to spend $300,000 but the house is not even worth the lesser expenditure.

Buy a house you like and can live with. Make sure it has a kitchen and baths, that even if not your own taste, you can live with for at least a few years. I lived with my kitchen (with some lipstick on that pig) for 32 yeas before finally doing it properly. Be sure the floor plan is one you like. If none of these things are the case, move on quickly.
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poorgirl
6 years ago
OH yes...the over build..that’s us! We keep trying to down grade but its not in our nature, we get discounts on building materials most items, discounts on many things and we do the work ourselves. So we buy the best we can afford and that’s normally more then anyone would put in their home. We are both pretty fussy and always want to do it right and never cut corners. For us we will sell this house, we bought it for us but knew we have one more place to build. Our house was designed for empty nesters or down sizers People that want to do entertaining, don’t want a big house but want a house completely done.

We don’t live far from the water so the garage can also store a boat or water toys our reno wasn’t suppose to be this big but we sat one day and looked at it and said...what the hell we are taking the walls out anyway, lets just do the entire house. So that’s how a snow ball becomes a snow man! We are in Ontario, so work outside in the summer and fall and inside all winter.
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1970s major renovation: how to budget?

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