^^ initially blaming the clogged weep holes when the product does not have weep holes is shady. Saying "let us look into it and see what's what" isn't.

GCs are building experts. Knowing the materials you installed is part of your job.

Not all GC‘s know there product in and out. Sometimes GC’s rely on there subs, sometimes they use a product at homeowners request, sometimes the they have problems that are new to them.

perhaps they are shady But I haven’t heard enough to go agree with that.

Some (including me) assumed the contractor supplied the windows, making him the point person. That may not be the case.

Seems pretty likely that GC / builder supplied the windows otherwise instead of offering lame excuses, he would have told the homeowner that he needs to take it up with the window guys. He may not be shady, be his competence is questionable at best with the weep hole thing and then the sheathing thing. It’s like he has a wheel ‘o excuses In his office. Let’s see what he comes up with next. My only question is why he’s trying to blame the stucco guys if he subbed to them? He‘s still on the hook for that if they did a bad job

Could be lack of experience or lucky to never had a failing window seal. Many contractors have not seen this kind of rain until the past two years. My first thought was weep holes as that issue is a common cause of water at that spot. Its great these were designed without.

If the homeowner purchased the windows, they have the leverage and legal standing with the supplier and manufacturer and it is the homeowners issue. If the contractor did, then the contractor needs to step up.

It was an early unanswered question.

Wow Saw , you have some great pros interested in your dilemma. Good advice!

Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractor to clarify, the contractor did purchase the windows. He bought them through the Andersen dealer Meeks Lumber & Hardware. The contractor put up the framing, sheeted the house with plywood & installed the windows & flashing. The stucco subcontractor then wrapped the house - put up the “chicken wire,” then scratch coat, brown coat, let cure 60 days, finish coat and 2 acrylic tinted finish layers.

lindahambletonwrote:Wow Saw , you have some great pros interested in your dilemma. Good advice!

Right ?! The people in this thread are so awesome for educating me and brainstorming through this predicament with me! I am so appreciative! Thank you Jeffrey R. Grenz, General Contractorfridge2020toddinmnjust_janniHomeSealed Exteriors, LLCWindows on Washington LtdmillworkmanRESGN Builders L.L.CwannabathUltra WindowsCharles Ross HomesAnglophiliaClassic Structures Inc.Migraine Craftsmandan1888

Just an observation - and it's kinda hard to tell from the pics - but - the stucco on your home, IMO, looks well done. Lines are straight, corners look crisp, it's neat, there's no crap on your windows where it looks like they had to scrape something off, etc. I realize it's not possible to see how they prepped, and there's no detail of the window headers, but I don't ascribe a lack of attention to detail to these subs.

S A W - I just showed your post to my DH who owned a glass & window shop for 45 years and has installed and repaired thousands of windows. Coincidentally, we have installed the same Anderson 100 windows in our new build. We just had a crazy rain/snow storm with 30 - 40 mph winds and our windows didn't leak.

First, those fixed windows do have a weep hole in the corners. You can see it in the photo you posted. Those gaps in the corners are the weep holes. My DH thinks one of two things has happened. First, the glass was not sealed correctly in the frame and needs to be popped out and resealed. The other is that they installed the glass unit upside down. There are supposed to be setting blocks that the glass sits on in the bottom of the window. If the lite was installed upside down, then there are no blocks for the glass to rest on and it has settled in the frame and the seal has broken. He has seen both scenarios happen over the years, so it could be the problem.

He says it's easy for your GC to pry up the bottom exterior stop and see what's going on. If the seal is broken or there are no setting blocks that the glass is sitting on, then Anderson needs to replace the window.

I hope you get this all resolved soon - good luck!

Suru, wow that is a lot of helpful intel.

When you say “The other is that they installed the glass unit upside down.”. Do you mean Andersen in the factory? Or do you mean the contract in the field? Andersen had me cheek this, and the windows were installed in the field correct side up.

So happy your windows did not leak!

You said, First, those fixed windows do have a weep hole in the corners. You can see it in the photo you posted. Those gaps in the corners are the weep holes.

Now I am super confused. I do not see weep holes. And Andersen does not have weep holes in their drawings. And Andersen now says that 100 Series Picture Windows do *not* have weep holes. Please explain more.

As far as your intel about seals failing, I am all ears and will bring up the topic.

When I say upside down, I mean Anderson in the factory installed the window lite upside down in the frame. It's easy to check, just pry the bottom stop off and if the glass is not sitting on top of little setting blocks, then the lite is upside down.

My DH said that the bottom stop is cut a little short so the gap in the bottom corners serve as the "weep hole."

He thinks it's most likely a problem with the window and not with the installation.

"then there are no blocks for the glass to rest on and it has settled in the frame and the seal has broken"

Setting blocks are set in the frame not attached to the glass from everything I know.

Following

There are some bits that make sense i there from Suru and others that don’t. As mwm said, setting blocks are loose and set between the frame and glass. Setting the glass “upside down“ in the frame should have no effect ither than perhaps the logo on the glass being in the wrong spot. Lastly, why on earth, even if we assumed all of that was somehow accurate, would we need to replace the window Because of that? Are you suggesting tht andersen 100 series is a weird window where the entire thing needs to be replaced if there is a defect in the glass such as a seal failure? I don’t believe that to be true

Fridge by "seal failure" I took that to mean the glass sealed into the frame not the IGU seal failing. And I agree that the stops cut short on the bottom are for drainage and "technically" not weep hole they still serve the same purpose. At the end of the day I will still say that this will come back to a flashing procedure not followed or butchered.

I completely agree mwm. Seems like the Window specialists are pretty much a consensus on this. Anything is possible of course, but in 80 of 100 situations like this that I’ve ever seen, water is getting behind the nail fin due to install. My “seal” comment was reflecting the fact that per Suru’s comments, any glass defect would require full window replacement which I don’t believe is correct, and is in fact nonsense. Even if there was a seal failure from glass to frame as some are speculating, there is nothing about that that would necessitate a full window being replaced any more than it would when a glass seal fails. In this case IF that was the cause, pulling and resetting/sealing the glass would be the proper fix unless there is some blockage in a drainage path that is inaccessible inside the frame

Fridge2020, if the water were getting behind the nailing fin, it would show up on the sheetrock or trim at the head of the window, no? I ask sincerely because my experience has been the opposite of yours. While this is certainly a generality, water at the head or sides causes me to first consider the installation. Water at the sill, especially when the water is only on the window frame and not on the wood stool, leads me to first suspect the window itself is allowing water infiltration. To say it another way, if the water is only only the window, it’s probably the window. If the water is on the sheetrock, sill, or other trim around the window, it’s more likely the installation. Again, this is not a hard and fast rule but merely my observations in the industry in one of the nation’s rainiest environments.

Water moving around the IG unit is not so uncommon, particularly on larger picture windows that get a lot of direct sun exposure. Absence of or misplacement of spacer blocks around the IG unit can compound the problem as it can allow the IG unit to shift, breaking the sill between the glass and frame. Of course shipping and handling can do the same thing if not handled carefully.

The comment from Suru saying that the gaps in the glazing bead corners are intentional and meant to function as weep holes, is interesting and will lead to further research on the product for me. While I generally like the Andersen 100, that is a poor design (if true).

Those are fair points ultra windows, and I’d agree again that it’s a possibility. I also agree with your statement that if it was originating at the top of the install, it would likely be coming in between the window and sheet rock return and then running down. My question would be who’s to say that is not happening? There would be a trail of water there just as evidence should exist if it was overflowing from under the glass and to the interior. Either way a trail would exist, and per the OP, we have evidence of neither in this case. If it were me, rather than continue to speculate and have contractors give bs excuses and half a$$ed assesments (meaning the gc on the project, not you or other commenters), I’d follow the suggestions above and throw a hose on this thing. Spray it all at the lower glazing bead and see what happens. If nothing after a while, throw it up over the top of the openjng until it starts leaking and then take note of where it’s coming from. The OP could do this himself and then get some more firm advice on exactly how to fix this. I think we can all agree that knowing where the water is first appearing in the interior ad opposed to where it puddled would be very helpful here

Really enjoying this thread...i think this may be the first time that I have ever heard someone suggesting that a glass package can be installed upside down.

As Fridge said, about the only thing that would result in is the glass logo in the wrong corner.

I think they meant it was installed upside down, and if there were to spacers installed in the top the glass pack would slide and break the seal.

The glazing beads are not meant to act as weep holes.

Id agree with Ultra due to where the leak is but the water could be coming in from many different points. I don’t believe these have welded corners(they did change recently) there fore the corners st the top could be a weak point.

would like to see the flashing/ drip cap at the head

What is the contractor s next step?

In the videos and pics, it looks like there is water up on the glass, and perhaps a track that looks like it ran down from the top? @SAW, does that sound accurate? Hard to say for sure. I agree with water testing to get to the bottom of this as efficiently as possible

Maybe this is the GUY THREAD? I yawned..........:) just now lol. Rather like talking about insulation ?

I do believe Andersen had 2 type of inoperable windows . A Picture/awning casements and a stationary . The picture casement would have a sash that is removable From the frame and the stationary would have direct set glass into the frame. The picture casement would have a gap between the sash and the frame that could let water in if there was a gasket malfunction .

Do you have any thoughts on the situation jan? I think all perspectives here are valued provided that they offer some substance.

Jan's answer day # 1 a week ago was the definitive answer. Most of the rest was covered before my first foray into this.

**update**

The only thing the contractor has said since my last thread update is, “The stucco guys are looking into it.” The contractor and I text 10 times a day and we see each other every other day. But I have not been given any leak information yet. When I talk to the stucco worker, he is very polite - but there is a language barrier so I can't get any specific. That said, here is what we have visually seen transpire over the past 48 hours.

My thoughts...

First off, thank you for your dialogue!

• It is interesting that they seal the window off to determine of it is the stucco or window leaking. That seems smart.

• I hate the “white streaks” in the top photos number 4, 5 & 6 after the house getting wet. Are those all cracks that are going to leak? The stucco is only 3 months old.

• Are the *dark lines* - under the aluminum joint channels - evidence of water getting in? Or just discoloration? If it is water getting in, is the entire house at risk?!

I am trying to remain calm. But am distressed. What are your thoughts? Thanks.

I don't see flashing at the head of the window. Was a flexible self-adhering flashing installed over the nailing fin at all sides?

I would think it would be better to tape the poly directly to the window vs the stucco. Perimeter.

What are they caulking?

why was stucco removed already?

you weren’t kidding when you said chicken wire, or m used to seeing metal lath Meant for stucco.

In the West, 2 layers of Fortifiber asphalt coated kraft paper is typical behind stucco. The stucco pretty much renders the top layer a sieve and water is expected to drain between the two layers and weep at the horizontal interruptions therefore the back layer must be well integrated with the window flashing. Fortifiber offers no suggestions about how to do that but Andersen requires a drip cap at the window head even though they don't always include one with the window.

I've never found any flexible self-adhering flashing that would adhere to any kind of asphalt paper/felt so I stopped specifying it when windows started having nail fins. However, a Grace tech once told me Vycor would adhere if it was rubbed vigorously with a piece of the release paper. In the East, a good stucco underlayment is Tyvek StuccoWrap with a cheap sacrificial lumberyard brand of perforated house wrap over it. [from Lstiburek]

HEAD DETAIL

SILL DETAIL

So they have not shared any results of that water testing? Was the window tested first, or did they move right into the stucco? ... Good to see that they are serious about rectifying, although it seems a little backwards in terms of a process of elimination in finding the leak. Tearing into the stucco is pretty invasive. Perhaps they've already ruled the window out and just not shared that with you?

Water intrusion problems can be really difficult to troubleshoot.

While it's not possible to discern all the installation details from the photos, it is clear that they are not using standard building paper as a weather-resistive barrier. They are using a product from Fortifiber called "Super Jumbo Tex" which is good stuff when properly installed. It also appears that the installers applied sealant over the staples fastening the wire mesh--more good stuff.

For true, 3-coat masonry stucco applications, I prefer to use a double layer of weather-resistive barrier which creates some drainage space between the layers. If they used two layers and a self-adhering flashing over the first layer, you would not see any flashing. With regard to the lack of a visible drip cap, I believe Andersen furnishes a drip cap to be used with factory joined windows and transoms, but I don't think it's required for single windows. You can consult Andersen's installation guide for your specific windows to be sure.

They appear to have installed a different material at the window head, and from what I can infer from one of the photos, it's installed as a double layer.

The windows showing evidence of water intrusion have windows more or less directly over them on the 2nd floor. If you aren't able to determine the origin of water intrusion around the 1st floor windows, you might have a look at the second floor windows to see if water is entering there and finding a path down the wall and collecting at the first floor windows. Like I said, water intrusion problems can be difficult to troubleshoot.

In Andersen's details for this window a footnote says:
"• Drip cap is required to complete window installation as shown, but may not be included with the window. Use of drip cap is recommended for proper installation."

How's that for adding to the confusion?

Costs nothing to make a recommendation. If made a requirement, it would cost them sales. If the window only performs as designed with the cap, it would be required.

@RES I don't know if it's still the case, but the last time I checked on DuPont's Stucco Wrap it wasn't supposed to contact stucco directly. They recommended installing felt in between the stucco and their product as you noted Joe Listiburek recommends. Stucco Wrap that can't come in direct contact with stucco! Isn't that a hoot?

I've never seen casing bead around windows used nor the ability to make stucco stick to it and wrap, but I could learn.

At least it's fortunate this was discovered during construction. Often the water just leaks down internally down the inside of the wall and damage is not discovered until much later after wall rot has taken over.

Andersen shows in there instructions to use a drip cap with sealant behind it , the flashing tape, then tar paper.

They also say the window frame should not be used as a stucco screed and a gap left for sealant.

i would think the stucco corners/screed above the windows would have weeps?

I still don't see how water on the inside sill could be caused by the stucco installation if flexible self-adhering flashing was properly installed over the nailing fins. Has that been eliminated as a cause yet? I am suspicious that self-adhering flashing might not be used in this location.

IMO exposed sealant is little more than a gap filler in the long run since the sealant will eventually need to be removed and replaced. Such details are inappropriate for buildings that will not have on-going maintenance programs, budgets and building managers. There is a price to be paid for clean modern minimalist facades and the systems are changing so fast its difficult to understand how to install them. It wasn't so long ago when window manufacturers refused to provide installation advice but then they discovered they could use it to void warranties. I think they are by far the poorest source for that kind of information. If they knew how to build buildings they would design better windows.

i felt dumber after reading that.

The tan stuff is the Fortifiber asphalt-kraft paper that has been discolored from contact with the stucco. Its intended to be a sacrificial layer. There should be another layer under it that overlaps flexible self-adhering flashing at the window head (Vycor, etc). The flashing should be adhered directly to the exterior wall sheathing. That's called base-flashing. A drip cap would be called counter-flashing that protects the base flashing and directs water over and clear of the window head

The best source for waterproofing information is Crace Products in Cambridge, MA where the best flexible flashings are made. All builders and designers should have their number in their favorites list. I almost said speed dial.

https://flannerytrim.com/product/window-drip-cap-reveal/

I would think that they would have installed some of these type drip caps ,screeds, and window returns properly into there stucco system. When flashing windows in this situation you may have to use more than one type of system and they would have to be tied together correctly. The GC and stucco installer should have been working together so it was flashed correctly in this situation IMO.

@RES, Everything great either originates from Cambridge, MA or at least passes through there for a couple of years!

Strange, I haven’t been through yet?

There you go!

@todd: Cambridge, MA is especially beautiful in February...not! That's one of many months I suspect the folks at Grace are content to stay indoors and invent stuff and I'm glad they do. I don't think they would have invented Ice & Water Shield if their headquarters was in Miami.

@todd you beat me to it!