Help Needed by Landscape Designer for Flagstone Backyard Patio -Please
We are trying to finalize plans for our backyard patio. I have a hard time visualizing things and need some help with some design details.
I’m attaching 2 drawings. Drawing #1 is a cleaner, however it doesn’t include the seating arrangements. In addition, the stepping stones leading from the patio to the laundry room door are shown incorrectly – those stepping stones should be butt up against each other, whereas the stepping stones going from the driveway to the laundry room door are to be spaced out with grass in between. Sketch #2 is a rough sketch, but does include some measurements, seating arrangements and better shows the correct stepping stone design. Below are the details that are included in the design, etc.
- I live in Bucks County, SE Pennsylvania, and the back of my home mainly faces the south. If you are looking out the back door, the sun rises to the left and sets to the right. I prefer more traditional looks and Bucks County farmhouse looks, vs contemporary design. I’m at the top of my budget currently.
- The upper patio (dining area) 20’x16’ and lower patio (sitting area) 14’x14’ will both be dry-laid with natural cleft flagstone. I have to still pick out the size of the slabs, but intend to use rectangular and square slabs larger than 1’x1’. There will only be 1 step down to the lower patio (that’s all that our grading accommodates). Do you think that the lower patio should be wider to line up with the edge of our family room, which is the room with the bump-out parallel to the lower patio – or aesthetically does that not matter once the beds are done?
- The landings will be concrete block faced with veneer stone (TBD) and capped with 1.5” bluestone treads. The backdoor landing will be 4’x7’ (currently shown incorrectly on sketch #1 as 2’x7’). The laundry room door landing will be 4’x4’ (currently shown incorrectly on sketch #1 as 2’x4’). I’m trying to decide if the laundry room door landing should be switched from 4’x4’ to 3’x4’ (just not sure if 4’x4’ will look right). Note, I do hang laundry outside & will be carrying baskets. Neither landing will have hand rails.
- I need help deciding on the size of the water feature. I was thinking of this one https://www.massarelli.com/mainproduct/67-vicenza-fountain recommended by the garden center that sells them
– it’s 67.5”h x 40.25”w. However, I’m not sure if it’s too large – I don’t want it to look obnoxious. They come in 25 different colors – I was thinking of getting a darker patina finish. I’m still trying to decide if I want a self-contained one, or one that utilizes a disappearing basin. If I use a disappearing basin, there will definitely need to be pea gravel (probably gray) around the perimeter to allow for water to get into the underground basin, which means less plantings in that bed. Our kitchen table in front of our back door, so the water feature will be a focal point, viewable from there. In addition, I want to be able to hear it from both patios. I currently have the firepit sitting in our backyard in the area that the fountain would go.
- The 24” sitting walls at the lower patio, like the landings, will be concrete block faced with veneer stone (TBD) and capped with 1.5” flagstone. I’m trying to decide if we should get the walls (or just one or both). I love the idea of more seating, but I’m concerned that they won’t look right when you are walking out the back door onto the patio. The wall that runs parallel to our family room wall, can be softened with a bush, etc. so I’m not as worried about that one. But the wall that runs parallel to the water feature will not be able to have bushes, but probably only some lower lying plants. Will the walls look right from the angle of the landing, or out of place? Our contractor said they will not be necessary, so it’s up to us.
- I’m attaching pictures of the front of my home, so that you can see the style, as well as the brick color. I’m conflicted on the stone veneer to use for the sides of the landings, risers and walls. I feel like I need to incorporate brick out there, but at the same time, I love the look of the stone used on old Bucks County farmhouses (google for images).
- I’m thinking of using this planter box below my kitchen window. https://www.kinsmangarden.com/product/Window-Box-Planter-44/Window-Box-Planters
- I haven’t even started thinking about bed design, trees & plantings, so I’m up for suggestions. The tree locations in Sketch #1 are fairly accurate, except the 2nd tree in from the left. That tree is actually going in the bed that juts into the patio – it will be in the bed above where the words “water feature” are on Sketch #1. I definitely can use suggestions on a tree that would work here long term – in other words, I don’t want the roots to damage the patio. Someone had mentioned a Crape Myrtle to me. Also, we are looking for low maintenance beds/plantings, as well as color that will come out throughout the different seasons.
- We will be getting LED low voltage 2700 kelvin lighting for under the steps, up-lighting for the trees and some lighting along the stepping stone path.
- We will have a wood fence on the side of our house that will disguise our 2 trashcans. It will match our existing fence at the front of our home (picture attached). However the trashcan fence will be taller, and the pickets might be slightly closer.
- So overall, I need help with:
o Lower patio width - should it be wider to line up with the edge of our family room?
o Veneer Stone choice for side of landings, risers and potential sitting walls.
o Sitting Walls - should we get one, both or neither?
o Fountain – what size?
o Bed design and plantings to bring color throughout the seasons in SE Pennsylvania.
o Any other suggestions would be welcomed.
Thank you so much! So many decisions and work involved with this.
Comments (20)
PROYardvaark
4 years ago"Any other suggestions would be welcomed."
As you're fairly far along in your efforts, you probably don't want to hear criticism of the concept, but I have to ask you about it and make a couple of comments. One thing that always seems wrong to me are elevation changes that go down only to go back up as one travels along the path (or the reverse of this.) From the house one immediately descends. As they continue to the lounge area they must return to a higher elevation. It would be better to bring the lounge level all the way to the stoop. (Fewer steps is better.)
It is fine to separate the patios from the house with plantings, but it begs a spacious connection, and in the plan it seems to narrow to me. Also, the plan is devoting some of that space to a very shallow bed alongside the family room. I would eliminate that bed in favor of a more spacious pedestrian connection. Why didn't you want to use a deck for the dining portion of the outdoor space. It seems like it would be a better solution on account of allowing the dining to happen at a more convenient level. There are so many ways to develop garden/plant interest, I don't think it is worth the sacrifice of of separating the dining from the house with a planting area, or necessarily having a patio instead of deck. It makes more sense to me to have the lounge area be patio, at a lower level, and separated from the house with plantings. I'm thinking that a simpler, more straightforward arrangement would be better for using the space, along the lines of this example:
(Of course, adjusting space and levels according to what is necessary.)
christy25
4 years agoRelated Discussions
backyard patio design help?!! with pics
Comments (11)Ok, so the old pad and the tree are fixed. I'm afraid I don't see the impediment to removing the old flagstone, however. It doesn't look all that firmly concreted it. Once you remove it, or even before you do, clear it from your brain. Don't factor it into your plans any more than you would factor in a piece of old linoleum into plans indoors. You may find that getting out there and starting to remove the yew trunks will help you mentally move past them as well. Your situation of not wanting to do much demolition is going to limit your ability to improve the area, so I would keep your installations very simple, minimal in fact, and easily reversible. The next owners of your home, or possibly you if you stay longer than you think, will eventually want to address the area as a whole, so do them a favour and yourself a favour by not making it too complicated. In addition, whatever you do is not going to be long-lasting in the conditions you have, so don't overwhelm yourself. Skip the planters and defining the area, and don't make a bunch of different areas or types of surface. You just need open space that you can enjoy that is easy to take care of. I would suggest you cover the whole unpaved area with cheap concrete slabs available at your average big box store for quite a reasonable price. Again, watch craigslist too - you never know. Watch the free and garden/materials listings. My preference is for 24x24, or 18x18, because the fewer cracks you have, the easier they are to maintain. However, those sizes are harder to handle and level than, say, 12x12. You don't give your zone, but I don't think you should do a bunch of base installation anyway - I would just put the slabs on the dirt and if you have frost heave, so be it; you can do a bit of relevelling. I say this because between tree roots and the fact that the pad will eventually be demolished by someone, there is no point in building a stellar patio that is going to be changed anyway in not too many years. There's a trick here too: you can cover the pad as well with those slabs, if you design the grade so it is just at the right height. Now, just a tip about "my husband loves the tree and the slab..." We used to have a couple of huge willow trees in the back yard that I wanted to remove. I am the gardener, and they were causing endless backbreaking work for me (long story). My husband rarely goes in the yard but looks at it out the back window all the time. "But I love those trees" he would say, from inside, while I griped about yet another day spent pruning and dealing with their litter and other constraints. It took me a while to wise up, but finally one year I enlisted him to do the pruning (they overhung the garbage area of the lane and that had to be kept clear). The trees were down within 6 months :-) Moral of the story, if he loves them, make them his headache. Why should you be sweeping and worrying about edging the concrete pad if he loves it? Let it get covered with debris and eventually disappear into the soil. He'll figure it out. Karin L...See Morehelp with backyard landscape design
Comments (15)In April of 2014 I made contact with a landscape designer/installer for a free consultation. At that time we went over the shortcomings of my front yard, my likes and dislikes, and what I would want. In order to get a hard copy design plan, the cost was $525. The designer came out and walked the yard and took measurements. The next visit he made he had the plans in hand with details of paths, mounds, rocks, mulch, lighting, and types and placement of plants. I did not go forward with him on the installation. I have been doing it myself slowly based on his plans. It has been going well and so far I have been able to do all the work myself. Although, I cannot handle big boulders and won't be installing lights, the project is looking pretty good. I have built mounds and planted them mostly according to the plan, and taken out a good amount of lawn. I have built redwood and cedar planters for areas that are unplantable due to large-tree root invasion. I am a 70 y.o. woman...so it can be done on a budget, especially if you aren't in a hurry. But, to me, the process is the fun!...See MoreHelp Needed for Back Yard Patio Project
Comments (6)I'm with Yard on the paver size. Large format pavers are hard to work with, even for experienced crews. One 16x24 weighs 72 lbs, according to the Menards link. Keep in mind that you're not just plopping them down and moving on. Odds are, because you'll be learning as you go, that you'll be pulling pavers up and putting them back multiple times to get a smooth, even surface. Plus, I don't know what the quality of the pavers are, but generally box store pavers aren't the greatest. That can mean being slightly out of square or other issues that are magnified when using a bigger paver. I'd do a 4x8 border and a 4x8 in a herringbone or running bond pattern. In terms of your questions: 1. suck it up and make the cuts. Go slow and take off a little material at a time until you get good at it. This is another reason to use smaller pavers if you're not confident about the cuts! It's way easier to piece together a curve with several smaller pavers than to try and cut a clean arc in a slab. 2. Rectangular is fine, but if you feel up to it I like Yard's concept. I wouldn't waste time putting curves against the planting bed. Soften the edge with plants and you'll be fine. The curves in that inspiration photo are a terrific example of what NOT to do. Squiggles aren't good design. If it looks like a roadkill rattlesnake, don't do it. 3. border the whole thing unless you have a compelling design reason not to. I don't see a reason not to. 4. if your house has red brick avoid pavers w/ red in them. The red pigments in clay bricks and the red pigments in concrete pavers will never look right together. Don't skimp on your base, and don't forget to pitch the patio slightly to shed water. The biggest thing is don't rush. Stand up and step back frequently, because your surface can start to get "wavy" and you'll never see it from 2-3 feet away. When I built my first paver walkway in 1995 I tore it out and redid it 3 times because I was impatient (and, at 20, kinda stupid)....See MoreNeed help designing backyard patio - location, size, shape
Comments (13)"Problem is finding a good paver "setter" who has a bit of creativity & vision." It's a mistake to think that paver installers are the ones that should be responsible for designing the project. Installers are primarily interested in installing the maximum square footage of patio that you will buy, and could probably care less about the layout, other than that they would prefer you provide a good one so they can walk away with pride and end up with a decent project for their portfolio. While they will design it by default, if you don't provide a design, the quality of their ideas will be on on you. If you don't have the design skills (alone or in conjunction with this forum) to design the patio, then you should be consulting with a LANDSCAPE DESIGNER, not a paver installer. Get the design done first, and then find an installer to place it. If you don't have a design (on paper) then you have nothing to bid on. In that case, every contractor you talk to will recommend different things and the pricing will be all over map. You'll have bids you can't compare with other bids because they'll all be for different things. As far as 12' vs. 14' depth, I would consider 12' the absolute minimum usable dimension. A designer would want to know the exact furniture that you're placing on the patio, and the contingencies for when you want to set up for the occasional larger group for special occasions, if that ever happens. Even if it never happens for you, it would be typical of most households. If resale (ever) is a concern, I wouldn't make the patio the absolute smallest a person can "get by" with. One that is of a size usable for a typical "family" with your size house in your type of neighborhood, would be a better choice. Rarely does anyone make a patio that they think is too large. Usually, they're wishing they had a little more space. I suggest figuring out your furniture and all uses and make the patio comfortably large enough to accommodate everything with a little extra room added. There's little point to building something new that you regret soon after you start using it. The difference in cost between barely-big-enough and comfortable is not that great. Buried utilities rarely limit a patio's placement. Water, sewer, gas, electricity are (should be) deep enough to be well below a patio. They might warrant some caution in excavation, but this is nothing to be fretting over. Irrigation lines might be shallow, but still probably won't be a problem. In the worst case scenario, if they are very shallow, they can easily be rerouted. (Some reconfiguration is likely anyway, since you don't want to be watering your patio.) Cable and telephone (if anyone has that any more) tends to the shallowest. These can both be rerouted to a lower placement or different route. Whether you abut or space it away from the structure, in order to make room for foundation beds, make the patio length (its longest dimension) be parallel to the home, not perpendicular to it. (Something said earlier made me think this was possibly going wrong.)...See More
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
4 years ago- PRO
Yardvaark
4 years ago christy25
4 years ago
greenfish1234
4 years agochristy25
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agochristy25
4 years agogreenfish1234
4 years agoNot exactly like this but it seems worth bringing in some fill to have the patio at door level like in this pic.
christy25 thanked greenfish1234greenfish1234
4 years agoI see your door is at least one step up from your exposed foundation. Sometimes there are a few runs of clapboard laid over foundation so you might be able to go higher, but if not, one step is way better than several. And i like long, Broad, short steps outside for really easy flow so in this pic the patio comes up to the clapboard and the steps are less than 6" high, maybe 18" deep and much wider than the door.
christy25 thanked greenfish1234christy25
4 years agogreenfish1234
4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoSome ideas:
^^ something like this but with as few steps as possible, and even deeper treads. But look how they have 4 different hardscape materials in their ONE small area. Not good.
^^great example of wide treads, low risers. I love it. But I would want more of this at the doors so you dont step down from inside.
^^ love this-makes me think of your idea to have a garden surrounding a separate "room"christy25 thanked greenfish1234greenfish1234
4 years agoMore thoughts if your doors open out, I would want the first step/landing to be as wide and deep as the full door swing. That is wasted space anyway and it will be more aesthetically pleasing
christy25 thanked greenfish1234christy25
4 years agolast modified: 4 years ago
@greenfish1234 Thank you again for your input.
I'm attaching a better picture of the back door area. Our door is currently a slider door - not sure if that will be switched in the future to a french door. How far past the door should the steps/landing go? The further we go, the further we cut into that dead space next to our family room wall (to the right of the door). Also, the deeper the total of depth of the steps/landing combined, the deeper the bed gets to the left of the steps/landing, unless we don't make that bed as deep as the steps/landing, but not sure if that will look right.I'm also attaching a pic of landing/steps I found on line. Not that I want curved steps or that material, but was wondering if I could turn that dead space into a raised planter on the landing. That way I can soften that area. If I did this though, not sure how far to bring out the planter - just to the last step, or to the edge of the back of the family room wall. In this pic, their dead space is probably 1/2 that of mine.
greenfish1234
4 years ago
That pic is exactly what I am hoping to help you avoid. When they make your patio they should have to bring in sand and gravel and such so hopefully that soon will raise the grade some but in the scope of the project some additional fill to raise it as high as possible will be so worth it. Other than being too tall visually it is also physically cumbersome to navigate SO MANY steps!
Look how much better it is with fewer steps:
On top of that, I would insist on no step down from the door, ideally the landing would be at door level. Finally, I would eliminate the planter. It is busy and messes up what should be an uncomplicated, serene space. I would bring the landing all the way to that wall and an equal distance to the left, and decorate it with brightly colored pots of flowers.
greenfish1234