Local Texas GOP rejects ousting vice chair over his Muslim faith

dublinbay z6 (KS)

Where praise is due, I will give it freely.

Kudos to the Republican Party in Tarrant County, Texas!

The only thing that disturbs me is the opposition that arose against a Muslim holding a position in the Repub. party.

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"Republicans in one of the most populous counties in Texas voted Thursday to keep a Muslim doctor as their party vice chairman following infighting over some members' claims about his beliefs.

The executive committee of the Tarrant County Republican Party voted 139-49 to reject the effort to purge Shahid Shafi, a surgeon and City Council member in suburban Fort Worth.

[. . .]

Shafi told reporters that his faith in Tarrant County Republicans had been reaffirmed.

"As we struggled through the last few months, it would have been easy for me to quit. But I stayed on to fight," he said. "We were fighting for religious freedom ... and today we have come out victorious."

The Thursday vote result took a stand "against bigotry of all kinds," he said. "Our union is a little more perfect today."

A party precinct chairwoman, Dorrie O'Brien, had led the call to oust Shafi on claims that he may be more loyal to Islamic law or connected to a terrorist group. Shafi denied both claims and other Republicans have called them bigoted.

"Religious freedom is at the core of who we are as a nation and state," Gov. Greg Abbott said in a statement Wednesday, "and attacks on Dr. Shafi because of his faith are contrary to this guiding principle."

Other top Republicans, such as U.S. Sen. Ted Cruz and Land Commissioner George P. Bush, also had condemned the effort to oust him.

[. . .]

[O'Brien's] call to reconsider Shafi's appointment gained traction with some party members after Tarrant County turned blue in the U.S. Senate race in November."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-republicans-poised-vote-muslim-vice-chair-ouster-174410877.html 

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When will some of these anti-Muslim folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have a religious faith other than Christianity?

Kate

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GOD

it wasn't even 3 to 1.

over 25% would have kicked him out because of his religion!

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patriciae_gw(07)

It is a small comfort that common sense won out but it is equally depressing that so many people voted their bigotry. These people have to actually know this man.

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MissMyGardens

"A party precinct chairwoman, Dorrie O'Brien, had led the call to
oust Shafi on claims that he may be more loyal to Islamic law or
connected to a terrorist group."

Luckily the group in Texas won that battle.The number of Texans praising O'Brien on her FB page was enlightening. Sick praise from fellow travelers.

Dorrie O'Brien is area leader of ACT! for America a Islamophobia hate group. They've spread their ideas as far as Trump's White House....and none other than Michael Flynn is on their Board of Advisers. Reminds me of those HT warning about Sharia taking over America.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/06/09/act-for-america-sharia/

Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-FL) has been involved with ACT as he shares their beliefs. Another bigot in the name of "national security".

[When the Washington Post revealed earlier this month that
Ron DeSantis, Florida's #MAGA GOP gubernatorial candidate, had appeared
at conferences organized by David Horowitz — a guy who has minimized
the impact of slavery in American history and argued there's a "race
war" against white people — DeSantis lashed back and insisted he was the
victim of a "smear campaign."

Well, now he has an even more troubling speaking engagement to explain away. As first reported by the Florida Center for Investigative Reporting (FCIR) this morning,
DeSantis also spoke at a conference organized by ACT for America — a
virulently anti-Muslim organization classified as a "hate group" that has repeatedly been associated with neo-Nazis in recent months.]

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texasranger2

Explain how this is different than the assault on religious liberty displayed by Democrat Dianne Feinstein when she expressed her fear that Amy Coney Barrett's Catholic "dogma lives loudly within you" in Barrett's confirmation hearing?

Now Senate Judiciary Committee members demand to know why another Catholic judicial nominee, Paul Matey, joined a group with "extreme positions". Senators Mazie Hirono and Kamala Harris, both Democrats, raised concerns about membership in the Knights of Columbus while the Senate Judiciary Committee reviewed the candidacy of Brian C. Buescher, an Ohio based lawyer nominated by President Trump to sit on the U. S. District Court for the District of Nebraska. These bigoted senators asked whether belonging to a Catholic charitable organization could prevent judges from hearing cases "fairly and impartially". They actually accuse the Knights of Columbus of having "extreme positions" which amounts to them having a different opinion on social issues. Buescher was asked if he would "quit the group".

Founded in 1882 in Connecticut, The Knights of Columbus is dedicated to the care of widows, orphans, and disabled members. It is a Catholic fraternal organization---loyal to the teachings of the Church---whose members engage in an enormous amount of charity and volunteer work that ranges locally and globally. Special Olympics, Coats for Kids, habitat for Humanity, the homeless shelter and food kitchen, disaster relief, displaced Middle Eastern Christians---big or little the organization of 1.9 million members there is little they will not take on, pay for and work for.

Did anyone ask Shahid Shafi if he "would quit the group" or reference to "extreme positions"? I haven't heard of any terrorists bombing people in the name of Catholicism or The Knights of Columbus nor am I aware of any Catholic terror cells in the world but there are numerous examples and incidents of Muslims using terror in the name of Allah and terror cells around the world including Western countries. The tendency not to become radicalized is not guaranteed by position, occupation or respectability of Muslim persons living in other countries. Being a doctor is no guarantee of anything and what he said is what they all say and what they all claim as they play the 'bigot card'.

It would prove enlightening for people who belong to a secular theocracy and who are focused on reforming and reshaping the individual conscience of Americans to travel to Europe, especially places like Brussels and France where they can witness the results of their multicultural theocracy and polices being forced on unwilling nations. The result is a Europe that is increasingly populated by millions of Muslim aliens who physically live in the area but mentally live in their former countries. They do not want to adapt to Europe as it still is (barely) and who they have nothing but disdain for, they want to remake it into an image of their native Islamic countries complete with Sharia law. Rather than being transformed by Europe, Islam is transforming it, probably irreversibly.



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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Are we operating on the premise that two wrongs make a right @texasranger2?

One person got it wrong so another group is justified in doing wrong?

Weird.


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

I was under the impression that the OP was celebrating religious freedom. Some of you oppose it and wish the Muslim doctor had been kicked off the Tarrant County Repub. committee? Am I missing the point?

Here is a paragraph I omitted in the OP:

"The executive committee of the Tarrant County Republican Party voted 139-49 to reject the effort to purge Shahid Shafi, a surgeon and City Council member in suburban Fort Worth."

That looks to me like a very strong Repub. vote to keep the Muslim doctor on the committee. That, at least, is why I was praising the Tarrant County Repub. Party in the OP.

And I do not see what Dianne Feinstein has to do with anything happening in Tarrant County Repub. party politics.

Kate

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texasranger2

We might be talking about hypocrisy which was my point, not than one wrong justifies another--those are your words Lindsey, not mine.

No, I do not think if one got it wrong another group is justified but then, I was comparing apples and oranges because the Knights of Columbus is hardly comparable to the threat that Islam presents to Western cultures and traditions. The Knights of Columbus are about as extremist as your average Rotary Club. The same cannot be said of Islam.

Its a matter of what we should rightly be concerned about and why. Its not difficult to figure out why some leftists are concerned with Catholicism unless you are stupid--- its abortion and gender issues.

Is the concern about Islam a matter of bigotry or is it a real issue that should engender real concern and legitimate questions & discussion about those concerns? Europe presents a case study America should seriously take note of and be forewarned if we want to avoid the same results. Its sad that the issue cannot be addressed properly discussed due to paranoia and fear of being labeled bigot by multiculturalists and their attempts to destroy freedom of speech. This definitely plays into the favor of Muslims and effectively hobbles the host country. It would be beneficial for us to really observe with an open mind and freedom of such fear to assess what Islam actually teaches, its goals and what has happened in Europe so we can avoid the same fate.

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GOD

I"m sorry TR that you don't understand the difference between an elected position and an appointed position that needs confirmation. The people needed to be confirmed have testified that they don't believe in the laws of the land.

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texasranger2

Kate the reason you can't see is because you are attempting to elicit an emotional reaction by focusing on a single incident. Some people look at the wider picture. Just because you cannot see doesn't mean everyone else is as shortsighted as you are or as easily manipulated by feel-good rhetoric.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Do you want to pass a Constitutional amendment stating that Muslims are not covered by the protections described in the Constitution? Or that Muslims, by definition, are enemies of the State? Or something like that?

Or what are you suggesting should be done to accomplish what you desire?

Should the Muslim doctor in Tarrant Co. Texas be deported?

Kate

ETA: I would argue that when individuals are reduced to blank faces lost in the crowd, they have been de-humanized. It's much easier to deprive them of their rights that way, isn't it.

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texasranger2

Dublin.

There is no need for a Constitutional amendment. Your debate tactics are boringly predictable.

What I want is for people to be free to objectively study what is happening in Europe and to have the freedom to exchange ideas and discuss the ramifications of the mass immigration of Muslims intelligently without being labeled bigot or loosing their job for even suggesting the problem exists (which in fact it does).

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maifleur01

Kate I think that is exactly what tr is saying. If the person is not a "Christian" they are not worthy of having rights and probably being considered to be human. As we have seen over and over again where one religious group states that they are the only ones to be allowed to live.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Can we take a minute to talk about the size of their executive committee? Is that a rather large executive? Or does the term mean something different from what I understand it to (pres, vp, secretary, treasurer) I am very un-versed in the organization of regional political parties. If the executive committee of this branch is almost 200 people, how big is the board? Or is "executive committee" used incorrectly here?

In any case, it's great news.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"What I want is for people to be free to objectively study what is happening in Europe and to have the freedom to exchange ideas and discuss the ramifications of the mass immigration of Muslims intelligently without being labeled bigot or loosing their job for even suggesting the problem exists (which in fact it does)."

I think we can all agree that the free gathering of information is an important tenant of our lives.

It seems likely that free objective study managed to save someone's job in the case of Dr. Shahid Shafi. YAY!

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texasranger2

maifleur--- I spoke for myself and I said what I thought.

I don't need a dublinbay or a maifleur to reword my comments because they arrogantly think they can read my thoughts and then claim its what I said and spinning it in order to virtue signal to others and flatter themselves in the process as they pat each other on the back for their own politically corrective group think.

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alexrander

Versus politically incorrect group think? What are we debating? That Catholics condone the molestation of children? They seem to.

That there is no such thing as Catholic terrorists like the IRA (think Ireland), or the Catholics that murdered all the Muslims in Bosnia, or the Catholic churches in Rwanda complicit in rape and genocide of 800,000?(1994)

That Catholics allowed millions to die of AIDS in Africa because they were against the use of condoms? And what about The Vatican Concordat With Hitler's Reich?

"The Vatican's reluctance to confront those accused of murder in its midst is rooted in its refusal to face up to the church's complicity in the events of 1994."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/08/catholic-church-apologise-failure-rwanda-genocide-vatican

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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

texasranger2's blanket statements about problems in Europe due to Muslim immigration are disingenuous, since negative feelings toward the Muslim population are divided along party and socioeconomic lines. Germany, which has hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigranst (and more liberal and highly-educated people) had fewer people with negative opinions about immigrants than countries such as Greece, Hungary and Poland, who have immigrants numbering only in the thousands, who had much higher negative opinions in a population that is more conservative and relatively less-educated. Let's not make statements about countries in Europe where the situation is much more nuanced than texas claims, and overall much more positive about Muslim immigrants in the countries that have the highest number. Negative views in all the countries were much larger in older, more conservative and less-educated sectors of the population. Those data were conveniently left out.

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texasranger2

I could give paragraphs of data and figures covering several European countries and the EU but no one would read a post that long, it would take a book and I've read several.

On that note, where is your data? Your's is a blanket statement of contradiction based on no facts.

We could also compare the teachings of Christianity and Islam, the so-called "Religion of Peace" which is a contradiction of truth if ever there was one.

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alexrander

Would this teaching of peace include the Old Testament?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

"I don't need a dublinbay or a maifleur to reword my comments because they arrogantly think they can read my thoughts and then claim its what I said and spinning it in order to virtue signal to others . . . . "

I do not know where I "reworded" TR's comments--nor do I "arrogantly think I can read TR's thoughts." Those accusations are out in left-field. I expressed my own ideas above--but whenever I do that, TR comes along and accuses me of mis-reading her thoughts.

There is a difference between my thoughts and your thoughts, TR. And there is nothing wrong with me expressing my thoughts, even though you act like I should quit doing it when you show up and want to turn the thread's topic in a different direction. The fact that you have a different thought is NOT a reason for me to quit expressing my thoughts.

I did ASK some questions about did you mean this or that or something else--those were real questions, which you decided not to respond to (I guess). I am allowed to ask for a clarification of what you are saying. Why that makes you so angry puzzles me.

The OP--which I posted--is about a specific situation in Tarrant Co., Texas. That is why I was commenting about it. I posted it because I was interested in the topic and thought others might be also. Then you came along and changed the subject to Muslim immigration in Europe and whatever. You certainly may do that, but you shouldn't be surprised if the person who posted about Tarrant Co., Texas wants to talk about it and not about Europe. And you have no right to insist we talk about immigration in Europe just because you want to. No one put you in charge, so quit telling us we have to bow down to your will.

Post your own thread on immigration in Europe if that is what you want to talk about. No one will stop you from doing that.

I suggest in the future that you just completely ignore anything I post. That way you won't get twisted in knots because I don't post things you think I should be posting.

Kate

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texasranger2

I did not change the subject, I expounded on it since the article was more or less self contained and spoke for itself. It didn't leave much else to say concerning the isolated incident other than whether one was happy with the result or not.

Concerning Muslims and peoples attitudes in cases like that, if you cannot see the obvious parallels of the direction being encouraged in America compared to other European countries under the misdirected guise of 'desirable cultural diversity' and understand that there are legitimate reasons why many people are concerned about immigrants and naturalized Muslims who follow Islamic teachings, the problem is your shortsightedness, not mine.

If you object to what others say on your thread as if you own and paid for it and thereby can control the content of other people's comments you are going to continue to be irritated and frustrated. This is an open public forum.

Since you are so often free with your unsolicited advice to me, I will return the favor. You could set up a personal blog account where you are the only one pontificating and set guidelines for what kinds of comments you demand (good luck with that). You can attempt to set your own specific content rules defining in advance the kinds of responses you expect and perhaps exert more control over other people's thoughts and comments in the hopes that they will stay within your specified guidelines.

Obviously, it is you who are twisted in knots, but thanks for the laugh. I don't "think" you are posting things "you shouldn't be posting" as you falsely claim. I simply think your ideas come from a dark place and that your views are often disgusting. But as they say, to each his own, its still a free country (sort of).

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Fortunately for Dr. Shafi, the Repub. Party Tarrant Co., Texas council does not agree with TR. It obviously knows the law and thus knows that it would face a discrimination suit if it kicked Dr. Shafi off because of his religion.

As the Texas governor said (and I don't often agree with certain Repub. officials),

"Religious freedom is at the core of who we are as a nation and state, and attacks on Dr. Shafi because of his faith are contrary to this guiding principle."

A moment in our country's history of which we can be proud.

Kate

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jillinnj

We've seen the hatred of Muslims on this forum for quite some time, and not just from texasranger. In fact, we have a poster that seems incensed that one particular Muslim woman was elected to Congress. In fact, when I speak up against it, I'm told I don't believe Israel has a right to exist, that I've turned my back on Judaism and don't believe the Holocaust happened. And I'm Jewish! With family that fled the Holocaust. One can conclude from this that they do not base their opinions on anything close to facts and therefore should really just be ignored. Sadly, sometimes ignorance cannot be fixed.

Thankfully, those people in Texas are not like some of our posters here and don't base their opinions of people (and what their rights are) on their nationality and/or religion.

I try to hold onto hope that the majority of people are not in the camp that is willing to discriminate based on religion, but reading here it's often difficult.

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texasranger2

That all sounds very nice and sweet but the fact is you have no way of knowing if the members of Texas council or the Texas governor agrees with me or not because there is no way you can know what they think, only what they have to put up with, are allowed to express publicly and the decision they were quite possibly forced to make. The reality is they were unable to do otherwise or express their true thoughts on the matter due to the left's persistent agenda of labeling anyone who does not zealously follow their agenda of the belief that 'traditional morality, faith and community' based on shared memories are all "dangerous relics of a racist past". They bully everyone into submission by using fear of being labeled bigot or racist or ostracized. The left continues to push the concept of Muslim victimhood onto the psyche of American's creating the idea of the "innocent victimhood" of Muslims along with ugly labels and name calling against anyone who dares to discuss or question this which effectively helps terrorists in the Western world.

In the process of remaking society in their own image, people like Soros and about a million of like-minded academics, politicians, journalists and popular entertainers (mostly concentrated on the coasts) are working for revolutionary change in America using propaganda tactics and browbeating tactics which we are all familiar with.

By encouraging the creation of a sub-culture of hostile aliens they are promoting the growth of an alternative social and political structure which reflects their anti-Christian, anti-Western goals.

You will have to excuse me. My focus is on the bigger picture concerning this topic whenever it arises. I certainly do not have a sentimental "feel good" reaction as if this is "a moment in our country's history of which we can be proud" in spite of the fact that the biggest danger to America stems from the religion of Islam and the terrorists it has produced throughout its long history based on following the teachings of the Koran while we are supposedly at 'war with terrorism'. I was proud of America when she still had the spine to stand up to such threats. The message to Muslims is clear--we welcome you with open arms, open borders and will gladly accommodate all the demands of Islam in the name of 'diversity and tolerance' and encourage positions of leadership in our government.

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tony jelly

Another post of mine disappears, there is a problem with the flagging that Emily supports.

I object to texasrangers anti-Muslim screed on account of the ignorance and misogyny it displays, now zap that, whoever you are.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I agree with all you say HU, except the "ignore" part.

I think we need to watch them carefully and pay close attention. Not necessarily engage with them in faux debates, but definitely listen up.

(I think it's probably what you meant but I thought it was important to state it)

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elvis

When will some of these anti-Muslim folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have a religious faith other than Christianity?

Kate

Maybe at about the same time that anti-Christian folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have the religious faith of Christianity? Bigotry either way is undesirable.

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tony jelly

No comparison, as you well know.

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patriciae_gw(07)

In the discussion between our founders when they were working out religious freedom Islam was specifically mentioned as being worthy of protection.

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jillinnj

Maybe at about the same time that anti-Christian folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have the religious faith of Christianity?

Except nobody here has ever said it was against the law to have the religious faith of Christianity

Next time try arguing points made and not ones you made up.

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patriciae_gw(07)

To not be religious is not to be anti-Christian. I would feel exactly the same about having any religion foisted on me. I do not agree with prayers as a part of any civic public function and I don't care what sort of prayers they are. I have no problem with people praying in public. I will not tromp on your prayer rug nor will I chatter while you pray before a meal but don't expect me to hold hands. I like to be politely respectful of the beliefs of others when I can.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Well said patriciae.

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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

Everything that patriciae said so well, except that I do hold hands with my husband's family, including his two small grandchildren, when they pray before meals because they are too young for us to call in question their parents' beliefs. When they're older we'll be happy to talk to them, should they ever have questions about issues of faith.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Yes I would also exclude private functions like ingrid describes above. Participating respectfully in the customs of the home where you are a guest is different from feeling compelled to participate in those customs at a civic event.

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texasranger2

"To be religious is not to be anti-Christian"

What? That is...well, I don't know exactly what that is or what you are attempting to prove or say but I certainly don't see anything well said about it. You can be a whole lot of things and still not be anti-Christian.

Being anti-Christian is to be anti-Christian and there are plenty of people in this country who are blatantly and openly anti-Christian "religious" or not.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"To not be religious is not to be anti-Christian." (emphasis mine)

A person can simultaneously be not religious while still holding no ill feelings for those who are Christian.

Being non-religious does not necessarily mean that a person is anti-Christian.

It is possible for person A to respect person B's right to be religious even if person A does not practicing a religion.

Disagreeing with the tenants of religion does not make a person anti-Christian.

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patriciae_gw(07)

It interests me TR that you are completely comfortable with being anti-Muslim.

Ingrid, yes, young children are a problem and it is weighing that against me acting the role of hypocrite or from my perspective showing disrespect to believers that I have trouble with being forced to pretend to pray. A family member ought to respect me and themselves.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

When will some of these anti-Muslim folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have a religious faith other than Christianity?

Kate

-------------------------

Maybe at about the same time that anti-Christian folks get it through their heads that it is not against the law to have the religious faith of Christianity? Bigotry either way is undesirable.

--------------------------------------

Puzzling. I don't' know of any non-religious person who advocates passing laws banning Christians' civil rights. It is true that some people don't "like" certain Christians, but that is hardly a violation of the Christian's rights.

Of course it is legal to have the religious faith of Christianity. In fact, a very large majority of religious folks in America are practicing Christians. When did you ever see the law outside your local Christian Churches, turning folks away BECAUSE they are Christians. I've never heard of such a thing. Have any of you (generic)? Any Christian you know in the USA who has been hauled off to a re-education camp where they tried to get you to recant your religious beliefs? What job have you (generic) lost because you were Christian? What local restaurant has a sign in the window saying "No Christians served"?

I could go on and on, but I think most readers readily got the point. Some Christians may be personally disliked, but no Christian in the USA can legitimately claim that they are penalized for practicing their Christian faith.

Kate

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elvis

tony jelly

No comparison, as you well know.

Quite the contrary. Explain that.

patriciae_gw(07)

In the discussion between our founders when they were working out religious freedom Islam was specifically mentioned as being worthy of protection.

Interesting, source?

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elvis

Ingrid wrote: I do hold hands with my husband's family, including his two small grandchildren, when they pray before meals

Now that's respectful of others' religious beliefs. I'll bet you would take your shoes off to enter a mosque, as would I.

patriciae_gw(07)

To not be religious is not to be anti-Christian. I would feel exactly the same about having any religion foisted on me

Not in dispute. Me, too.

and - Ingrid, yes, young children are a problem and it is weighing that against me acting the role of hypocrite or from my perspective showing disrespect to believers that I have trouble with being forced to pretend to pray. A family member ought to respect me and themselves.

Holding hands is simply showing fellowship. But as long as it's all about you...


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texasranger2

"I would feel exactly the same about having any religion foisted on me"

Not in dispute at all---count me in 100% on that. That is why I strongly object to Islam although I consider Muslim individuals on an individual basis and don't judge them as such. People are one thing. The institution of Islam is another thing entirely.

Ask non-Muslims what its like to live as native born minority in a Muslim country where Islam is the state religion, I've talked to several myself who were forced to flee to America. Ask non-Christians (Hindu) in India or non Muslims in Egypt.

I am unapologetically anti-Islam which is not 'the Religion of Peace' by any description of the word peace. That is propaganda talk and anyone naive enough to believe it needs to have their head examined or pull their head out and wake up.

Islam is and always has been an intolerant monolithic religious/legal system with no separation of church and state who's main objective has always been to convert the entire world in the name of Allah and conquer countries by various methods, either by the terror of Jihad or populating host countries as peaceful, but separate, members of the host country until they obtain enough of a majority to change the host country into a country based on their own image which is what is happening in Europe because its been going on longer there than in the US and there are millions more Muslims living there in relationship to the number of Europeans. So far its large pockets of Muslim communities in what are referred to as 'no go' areas which have their own set of laws but these are ever widening; even the police won't enter these areas out of fear. Once a country is taken over non-Muslims have three choices. 1. Convert. 2. Pay Toll tax & likely have your property confiscated and get along as best you can. 3. Be killed immediately or later for saying anything against Islam or Allah or refusing to convert, often by beheading.



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elvis

Once a country is taken over non-Muslims have three choices. 1. Convert. 2. Pay Toll tax & likely have your property confiscated and get along as best you can. 3. Be killed immediately or later for saying anything against Islam or Allah or refusing to convert, often by beheading.

No one can refute that, TR. It's the epitome of intolerance.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

Many of the same things have been done by Christians in the name of Jesus, who is called the Prince of Peace.

The country I live in (Canada) is currently grappling with trying to reconcile with First Nations groups due to their colonial past that saw Indigenous people:

-ripped from their home lands,

-attacked with biological warfare,

-their children kidnapped, sent to Christian residential schools where they were violently punished for trying to maintain their culture and verbally, physically, and sexually assaulted,

-forced to comply with the invading culture or die of starvation on sequestered reservations,

-and their compliance bought with alcohol, drugging the first generation and kick starting the generational problems that persist to this day.

Children were taken from their families to residential schools as recently as the 1960s.

That was all done under the auspices of various Christian churches. It is not a uniquely Islamic phenomenon.

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elvis

...about that beheading part...you guys do much of that?

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patriciae_gw(07)

Christians went through a phase of half hanging, castrating, disemboweling, burning your entrails in front of you and then hacking you into pieces if you happened to believe in a different version of Christianity. Or maybe they just burned you at the stake. Fortunately we don't see that happening any more. Beheading is rare in Muslim communities these days.

You see religion at its most intolerant when countries have or when they had national religions. To not support the sanctioned version is seen as treason, Naturally that feeds religious excess.

The idea of No Go areas in European countries has been widely debunked.

So when someone says let us join hands and bow our heads in prayer which is a common scenario what is an unbeliever to do? If I respect your beliefs I don't pretend to pray right? If I join hands I imply that I am part of the circle of faith. It is problematic.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

"So when someone says let us join hands and bow our heads in prayer which is a common scenario what is an unbeliever to do? If I respect your beliefs I don't pretend to pray right? If I join hands I imply that I am part of the circle of faith. It is problematic."

You're right.

Many churches have moved away from this practice for this very reason.

As a believer, if we were together at a function where such a request was made I would not be offended at all if you took a step back from the circle until the prayer was over, or simply stood with your hands at your sides.

Even though I grew up holding hands for grace, in our home my husband and I don't follow this custom. If we have first-time dinner guests, when we say grace we tell them that it is our custom to say grace and that we do not expect them to worship that way if it's not their usual custom. Our hope is that it makes them feel more comfortable knowing that we are not thinking about/noticing their participation or lack thereof.

I don't condone religious observances at public functions at all. They make me uncomfortable too. If something simply must be said before a meal, for goodness sake thank the cooks and servers!

The one exception might be public memorial services in the wake of a community tragedy. But even then, it should be well understood that not all people participate in worship and those people who don't should not be made apparent to everyone.

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texasranger2

Lindsey that must be quite a trial for you concerning feeling uncomfortable, you being an unbeliever and all. I can see how public services would be beyond the pale and a real test of endurance. It makes what happened in Mosul seem so trite in contrast. From what was once a predominantly Christian city practically all Christians have now been killed or forced out or left because of the crippling toll tax for their refusal to convert to Islam along with policies designed to humiliate and make life as difficult as possible for them by only allowing them to do menial jobs. The Muslims jokingly call them 'Sweepers' because cleaning the streets is the only type of job they will allow them to have. Its a matter of genocide by attrition (or just making them very uncomfortable). Sorry but I was just reading about it before checking back on HT.

HU, I do not get my information from the dark web. I'm getting my information from books on the subject of terrorism and Islam from the public library. Books complete with many pages of footnotes documenting the information and a whole slew of quotes throughout the books from guys with Arab names I can't pronounce ---like Gamal Abdel-Hafiz, Muhammed Ibrahim Bilal, Wassef Ali Hassoun etc along with quotes from leaders and news articles from various publications since the 1960's. One book was highly commended by Ambassador James Bisset, former head of Canada's Immigration Service (just another White Supremacist wack job). By the way, Russia hasn't been mentioned so far.

Yeah its just sickening. That hardly begins to describe my reaction reading them.

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texasranger2

Excerpts from an article in the Atlantic similar to the case in the OP.

During a confirmation hearing for Russell Vought, President Trump's nominee for deputy director of the Office of Management and Budget, Bernie Sanders took issue with a piece Vought wrote in January 2016 about a fight at the nominees's alma mater, Wheaton College. The Christian school had fired a political-science professor, Larycia Hawkins for a Facebook post intended to express solidarity with Muslims. Vought disagreed with Hawkin's post and defended the school in an article for the conservative website The Resurgent. During the hearing, Sanders repeatedly quoted one passage he found objectionable.

"Muslims do not simply have a deficient theology. They do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his son, and they stand condemned."

Sanders said the statement was indefensible, hateful and Islamophobic and an insult to over a billion Muslims throughout the world.

Sanders continued to bring this up over and over again asking Vought: "do your believe that statement is Islamophobic"

Vought replied "Absolutely not, Senator, I'm a Christian and I believe in a Christian set of principles based on my faith."

Vought believed he was stating a basic principle of his belief as an evangelical Christian that "faith in Jesus is the only pathway to salvation" as Christianity indeed teaches and which is believed by Christians around the world. Sanders believed he was policing bigotry, others believed Sanders was imposing a religious test.

As Russell Moore, the head of the political arm or the Southern Baptist Conventions said in a comment: "Even if one were to excuse Senator Sanders for not realizing that all Christians of every age have insisted that faith in Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation, it is inconceivable that Senator Sanders would cite religious beliefs as disqualifying an individual for public office.

This is evidence of the danger of using religion to deem someone unfit to serve in the government.

Quoted in context of his piece, Vought's statement about Muslims had a different meaning from what Sanders was implying. He was deconstructing Hawkins's theological claims about the relationship between Islam and Christianity. He believed Hawkins statement created "serious theological confusion" about what it means to be in relationship with or know the one, true God. Citing the Gospels of Luke and John Vought explains that Muslims "do not know God because they have rejected Jesus Christ his Son, and they stand condemned."

In John 8:19 "Jesus answered, 'You know neither me nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also". In Luke Jesus says "The one who rejects me rejects him who sent me." In John 3:18 Jesus says "Whoever believes in the Son is not condemned but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

That's where the passage Senator Sanders cited comes in. Sanders saw the statement as a claim about Islam rather than a claim about the exclusivity of Christianity.

Sanders then began raising his voice

Sanders: I don't know how many Muslims there are in America, I really don't know, probably a couple million. Are you suggesting that all those people stand condemned? What about Jews? Do they stand condemned too?

Vought Senator, I am a Christian----

Sanders: I understand you are a Christian. but this country is made up of people who are not just---I understand that Christianity is the majority religion. But there are other people who have different religions in this country and around the world. In your judgement, do you think that people who are not Christians are going to be condemned?

Vought attempted to clarify how he thinks people of other traditions should be treated referring to a doctrine know as imago Dei "As a Christian, I believe that all individuals are made in the image of God and are worthy of dignity and respect regardless of religious beliefs. I believe that as a Christina that's how I should treat all individuals___"

Sanders interrupted "And do you think your statement that you put in that publication "They do not know god because they rejected Jesus Christ, the son and they stand condemned.....do you think that's respectful of other religions?"

Vought replied that he wroth the post as Christina alumnus of Wheaton which "has a statement of faith that speaks clearly with regard to the centrality of Jesus Christ in salvation."

It ended with Sanders calling hims an unacceptable candidate for office Sanders: "I would simply say, Mr Chairman, that this nominee is really not someone who is what this country is supposed to be about. I will vote no."

Cory Gardner stepped in and chastised Sanders "I hope that we are not questioning the faith of others and how they interpret their faith to themselves.

Then Senator Van Hollen asserted that Vought's view of the Christian faith was wrong and in a "remarkable moment" a Democratic senator was lecturing a nominee for public office on the correct interpretation of Christianity.

What it amounted to was a test on religion that a person must pass for public service, the kind of test America's founders were guarding against when they drafted Article VI.

Unlike the case in Texas, we have to ask why anti-Christian people like Senator Sanders can't get it through their heads that its not against the law to follow ones individual conscience when it comes to religious beliefs even when it pits acceptance of diversity against ones conscience or beliefs or why is it wrong for a Christian to write a statement in a publication that is in direct agreement with Christ's own words in the Bible?


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tony jelly

Jesus is mentioned several times in the Qu'ran, here is one passage, in an English translation:

And remember when the angels said, "O Mary, God sends you the good news of a Command of His: his name shall be Messiah, Jesus son of Mary. He will be highly honored in this world and in the Next World and he will be among those favored by God. He will speak to the people alike when in the cradle and when grown up, and he will be among the righteous." Hearing this, Mary said, "How, O Lord, shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me?" "Thus shall it be,"44 was the answer. God creates whatever He wills. When He decrees a thing, He only says, "Be" and it is. (Continuing their message, the angels added,) "And God will teach him the Book and wisdom, and give him the knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, and appoint him as His Messenger to the children of Israel." Quran 3:45-49


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texasranger2

They believe Jesus was a messenger and precursor of Mohammed but lesser in importance. They reject the divinity of Christ and say he was not crucified and interpret the Christian dogma of the Trinity as consisting of God the Father, Christ the Son and the Virgin Mary. Jesus is not referred to as the Son of God but rather the Son of Mary and Jesus was a Muslim even though that religion wasn't originated by Mohammed until about 600 years later. There is a lot of really bizarre stuff in the Koran and weird reinterpretations of the Bible. A lot of complaining about the Jews and Christians who are referred to as 'People of the Book' who need to be conquered and brought under Islam.

According to Wikipedia, Jesus is mentioned 25 times by the name of Isa, third person 48 times and first-person 35 times and the rest as titles and attributes.

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Ziemia(6a)

This is not true (it is a definition used by a *some* Christians* and is NOT used by other Christians:

all Christians of every age have insisted that faith in Jesus Christ is the only pathway to salvation

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Ziemia(6a)

If a public official views some people as being less than others because of religious beliefs - then they are breaking their oath to uphold the US Constitution.

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tony jelly

Can you post a quote that shows complaining about the Jews and Christians who are referred to as 'People of the Book' who need to be conquered and brought under Islam? Or one where Jesus is referred to as a Muslim?

Muhamed is also seen as a messenger, and to establish some balance, there is some bizarre stuff in the Bible too.

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jillinnj

I'm thankful texasranger, and those like her, do not live here. We have a lot of Muslims here. We have an enormous mosque (I once heard it was the largest in the region although I never confirmed that). We all get along. Our kids are friends. We are friendly neighbors with different customs. I have to remind myself of this everytime I read the venom from certain people here. Most people do not feel or act like that.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

jillinnj, I thought they weren't here too. Then one day I hear a mom call her son Aryan and that took me aback but I figured, young mom, not well-educated, and the word itself has a nice ring that suits the current naming trend. Not going to worry too much about it.

Until kkk literature started turning up in mailboxes, and swastikas were being painted on bridges, and people started flying Confederate flags on their trucks (remember I live other west coast of Canada. No cultural relevance to the Confederacy here, progressive society, etc).

This mindset is everywhere, it just needs a bit of enablement.

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jillinnj

Yes, lindsey, you are right. They are everywhere, though certainly more numerous in some areas. Thankfully, I do not see a lot of that here. But you reminded me of one instance - before the 2016 election, some local politician's lawn signs around town were vandalized with racist statements.

We must remain vigilant and speak out loudly and clearly when this carp happens.

I cannot wait until this period is over and they all crawl back under their rocks where they belong. The moronic Trump has made speaking this venom more common.

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elvis

Then one day I hear a mom call her son Aryan and that took me aback

Good grief, I should think so! This happened in Canada?

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texasranger2

My my! So many virtue signaler's!

My pharmacist is Muslim and I really like her. We have become friends. Believe it or not, we have Muslims here in the Midwest (its not all cowboys and Indians and backward hicks here). The people I go to church with are predominantly of Arab descent and I know a few Muslims through them.

We even have Jews out here. I know many of them as well. We have all the typical diverse groups even way out here but I won't list them all.

Like I said before Islam is a religious/political system and I have nothing but abhorrence for its teachings.

Its an ideology.

An ideology is not a person.

Its a sad state of affairs when some people cannot grasp the distinct difference between a person and an ideology. I have made no secret that I find certain ideologies objectionable and some are downright disgusting, for example the feminist ideology concerning abortion and the LGBT ideology concerning SSM, gender and a lot of other things. That doesn't mean I toilet paper their yards or slash their tires or spit on them or call them names. I am courteous and friendly to them.

By the same token, I don't demand people to accept Christianity in order to associate with me or be my friend but then I do not think of myself as the religion of Christianity. I think of myself as person, like them, who happens to be a Christian. If they want to mock the religion of Christianity or if they hate the idea of Christianity or if they choose to be anti-Christian or make blasphemous jokes that's their right---- it has nothing to do with me personally and I've pretty much heard it all-- countless times --in person-- to my face. Trust me, there are plenty of people out there that fall into the vocal anti-Christian category, a couple in my own family in fact and they don't hesitate to make their views known in pretty much the same way a lot of people do here on HT. Often if I say I'm a Christian I get the full whammy of angry anti-Christian rhetoric as the other person justifies their hatred of it in the form of tales of this and that.

For some reason we can openly criticize Christianity but we are not able to criticize Islam without being labeled Islamophobe, risking getting fired or ostracized due to what can only be described as state sponsored censorship intended to shut down any views other than those politically correct views of the Left.

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texasranger2



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tony jelly

Islam is not an ideology; it is a religion.

Just a word to the wise, nobody ever tackles me on my religion, because I keep it to myself.

When Christians concentrate on extreme views on gender issues or abortion, that I don't believe comes from Jesus and ignore the message of love, tolerance, and understanding, that does come from Jesus, they deserve all the criticism they get.



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elvis

Interesting information, TR. I didn't know that. I looked into it and found that it's popular in India, Iran, and a lot of other places. It's sad that because a monstrous culture used the name for nefarious purposes 70+ years ago, some give negative connotations to the name today. Time to move on.

As jillin said above: I cannot wait until this period is over and they all crawl back under their rocks where they belong

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elvis

tj wrote: Just a word to the wise, nobody ever tackles me on my religion, because I keep it to myself.

Lucky you, I occasionally get "tackled" for my religion here on HT, and I don't even have one!

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Ziemia(6a)

Just as there isn't a singular kind of Christianity there isn't one of Islam.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

elvis and tr, yes, at the time I chalked his name up to parents who had not gotten a comprehensive education and so did not know the connotations of the word in western culture. It wasn't until other pro-nazi sentiments started popping up in the community that I wondered if it might be a deeper issue.

I met a man in the '90s whose name was Adolf. He was clearly born before 1939 but even ~50 years after WWII he was still hesitant to introduce himself by name. Connotations matter.

I don't think 70 years is enough time to get over the Holocaust or Aryanism. I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or not.



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elvis

No, not sarcasm, time to move on. Never forget.

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texasranger2

Lindsey---"The mindset is everywhere, it just needs a bit of enablement"

Jillinjj---Yes, Lindsey, you are right. They are "EVERYWHERE"

We must remain VIGILANT and speak LOUDLY and CLEARLY when this CRAP happens.

I can't wait until this "period" is over and they ALL crawl back under their ROCKS where they BELONG.




That would be considered Islomophobic hate speech if it was said about Islam. A person could be fired for talking like that.

What with numerous terrorist attacks and Trade Towers getting bombed I personally think Islam is 100 times more serious and threatening than KKK literature turning up in mailboxes and Confederate flags but thats just me.

The numbers of White Supremacist groups is grossly exaggerated by the liberal press. Especially since Trump when all all it takes to get labeled is resisting the political correctness and state sponsored censorship being driven by the left.

Anyone who resists is labeled White Supremacist. Anyone who supports Trump is labeled White Supremacist.

Your jumping to conclusions about a boy's name shows your bias, paranoia and tendency to label anything remotely suspicious as probably White Supremacist---after all there is one under every rock and behind every tree and they are EVERYWHERE.

A lot of the people I've seen on TV at the Trump rallies are simply common folk types who lack the sophisticated, surface slickness of some egotistic self centered A. Hole's who live on the coasts. For that they are labeled White Supremacists and portrayed in such a way to make it seem like a tidal wave threat of White Supremacism is taking over the country.

Its leftist hysteria.


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jillinnj

As jillin said above...

More word games. Stop twisting my words for your game playing pleasure. It's childish. Grow up.

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texasranger2

Its not games. Not at all.

I didn't twist anything, I merely put it in bold type and emphasized the bigoted elements for emphasis so the obvious bias wouldn't be overlooked, otherwise they are your exact words in response to Lyndsey's comments typed by your own fingers.

If it looks bad mirrored back at you, don't blame me. You said it, not me.


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elvis

Looks like jillin was talking to both of us, TR. I agree with you.

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texasranger2

Elvis, no joke, we really may have to "hide under rocks" one day for protection from the dreaded omnipresent Thought Police who listen to our every word waiting to scoop down and punish us for breaking liberal censorship laws or Islamic blasphemy laws .

I have no idea who she was talking to but it sounded like comments against white Western European American citizens aka them as opposed to us.

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elvis

I know, bizarre. Enjoy free speech while you can, and if you have the urge to yell "fire", do restrain yourself.

They must loathe their life partners, especially if they are Caucasian.

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Linda

War of the religions? Count me out. I'd prefer a more peaceful way of life.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The constitution prevents the government from making laws that abridge your freedom of speech. It doesn't prevent me or anyone else from taking exception to any weird thing you have said or being snarky about your saying weird things. Houzz on the other hand can abridge us all they like.

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alexrander

TR reads books etc. and concludes that Islam is a threat. I feel somewhat the same about global warming. I perceive it as a real threat and one we should all take notice of. I am also aware of the harm religion does to our society. I am aware that Canada just gave a young Saudi woman refugee status.


But I am also aware of stuff like this in the history of Catholicism.. . "As soon as the new fascist state of Croatia was
born, and campaign of cold-blooded terror began, as noted by
John Cornwell in his book Hitler's Pope: The Secret
History of Pius XII
(Viking, London, UK,
1999):
"(It
was) an act of 'ethnic cleansing' before that hideous
term came into vogue, it was an attempt to create a
'pure' Catholic Croatia by enforced conversions,
deportations, and mass exterminations. So dreadful were
the acts of torture and murder that even hardened German
troops registered their horror. Even by comparison with
the recent bloodshed in Yugoslavia at the time of
writing, Pavelic's onslaught against the Orthodox Serbs
remains one of the most appalling civilian massacres
known to history" (p 249)

Furthermore, as
Cornwell notes, Pius XII had not only "warmly endorsed"
Croat nationalism, he had, before the war in November 1939,
described the Croats in a speech as an "the outpost of
Christianity" of whom "the hope of a better future seems to
be smiling on you". Pavelic and Pope Puis XII "frequently
exchanged cordial telegrams" according to Dedijer, one on
New Year's Day 1943, saw the Pope give his blessing to
Pavelic:..." http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm

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MissMyGardens

"Elvis, no joke, we really may have to "hide under rocks" one day for
protection from the dreaded omnipresent Thought Police who listen to our
every word waiting to scoop down and punish us for breaking liberal
censorship laws or Islamic blasphemy laws."

If other said that they'd be accused on HT of "identity politics" or victimology.

If you put ideas other don't agree with on a public forum others can argue against their universality just as you argue against ideas of others. Are you the "thought police" when expressing your ideas and rebutting others?

Whole different story when anyone tries to enshrine their religious beliefs in laws meant for every citizen. Those laws don't force you to live any differently than you do now but allows other people to live as they choose and have as much a right to do so as you have.

You can believe anything your heart tells you to and witness all you want as is your right. What you cannot do is continue to use those beliefs to make restrictive laws in the United States for everyone else. You cannot take away rights from people your religion tells you are abominations for things that do not involve you or your rights. Religion and government are supposed to be separated according to the constitution that gets thrown around so much.

People sure want the maximum rights where the 2nd amendment is concerned but don't want to allow other people maximum rights allowed under rest of amendments as means of attaining "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness." Can't have all those rights based on religious beliefs for yourselves and deny rights to those who don't live their lives based on your religious beliefs.

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writersblock(9b/10a)

While I don't deny what you are saying at all, alexrander, it's also true that the Catholic church these days urges respect for all religions:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.


ETA I didn't bother to mention this before because I doubt TR considers Catholics to be christians, so your post is probably moot, too. Most protestant fundamentalists also do not.

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texasranger2

alexrander--- if you are itching to get into a pissing contest as to who is historically the worst with you playing the role of the Islamophile and me defending Christianity and the Western cultures it has influenced and been instrumental in developing you will loose badly. Granted there are bad apples in any religion or culture but Islam is in a class all its own due to the tenants in the Koran. Those who act unChristian are going against Christianity while jihadists are following their religious teachings according to theirs.

If you want to get into a contest about who has contributed more to creating advanced civilizations, philosophy, social sciences, ethics, democratic government, the idea of personal freedom, civil rights, medicine, all the humanities, literature, music and most especially science you will also loose badly.

Even without the threat of jihad, Islam is a closed system marked by an all pervasive lack of freedom ---lack of freedom of the mind from constraint and indoctrination, to question and inquire and speak, lack of freedom of the economy from corrupt and pervasive mismanagement, lack of freedom of women from male oppression, lack of freedom of citizens from tyranny which is the hallmark of a Muslim State.

In Islamic countries you find discrimination against non Islamic religions and women, racism, slavery, anti-Semitism and cultural imperialism. Islam alone of all the religions sanctions all of these. The orthodox version of Islam breeds terrorism as we are witnessing everywhere these days.


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texasranger2

writersblock says


FYI my husband's family is Catholic. We are Eastern Orthodox. The East and West separated in the Great Schism and are not in communion but hold each other in high regard. We do not recognize the doctrine of the Papacy and there are some other differences but we definitely consider them Christian . I was raised Baptist and consider mainstream Protestant denominations as Christian as well.

There are several non-trinitarian sects and cults that label themselves 'Christian' which I do not consider Christian at all. Some people get their feathers ruffled by that but its best to just ignore ignorance and allow them throw a hissy fit over it. Oddly, these people are usually agnostics or atheists who just want an excuse to call me names.

Catholics and Orthodox do not consider the Islamic idea of God as the same God as the Triune God---God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. For that matter, Muslims do not consider the Triune God of the Christians or the Hebrew God as being the same god as Allah. The only idea we all share is monotheism.

I don't keep up with everything that comes out from the Vatican but I can tell you right off, the Orthodox do not hold that view which you posted.


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elvis

You can believe anything your heart tells you to and witness all you want as is your right. What you cannot do is continue to use those beliefs to make restrictive laws in the United States for everyone else. You cannot take away rights from people your religion tells you are abominations for things that do not involve you or your rights. Religion and government are supposed to be separated according to the constitution that gets thrown around so much.

"you this" "you that"

I don't have a religion, so save it, mmg.

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texasranger2

Religion and government is separate and I certainly hope it stays that way because otherwise the progressive left will be passing new laws forcing us to do who knows what all or suffer the consequences, its already happening especially since Obama.

I wish the government would get its fat, over-reaching butt out of the institution of marriage and family as well. It had no business ever getting into it.

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patriciae_gw(07)

TR, you will lose your fight to say that Muslims did not contribute vastly to our world. The very numbers on the like button are Arabic. Look up at the sky and the stars are named Arabic names. When Europe was still medicating according to the four humors people in Muslim countries had real doctors with real medicine. I could go on and on. You like to ignore comments on the bloodbath that is the old testament. As I said before there is no sin, no horror, that isn't enshrined there. One of the basic concepts of Christianity, Christs blood, harkens back to blood sacrifice in the old testament. If you were not brought up to these concepts you could find that disturbing. I know you are a convert to your present belief system but you grew up in it. I sang songs about being washed in the blood when I was a child. The people who taught me that thought of it as a metaphor.

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

@texasranger I appreciated reading your explanation of your beliefs. Thanks for sharing it.

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texasranger2

I know about the math and the Arabic names. All that came before Islam. Its rather sad actually.

Your points are not good, they don't stand up to historical facts.

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alexrander

Dear Texasranger2, Tell me, does Islam have bishops and popes that protect child abusers, rapists and child torturers? ETA: This has been going on in our communities. So who is there more to be feared from?

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texasranger2

Give it up rander.

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alexrander

I rest my case. It's so obvious that TR cannot offer a reliable response. This is fun.

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texasranger2

rander, do you have a job? I've got a lot of work to get done tonight because I do have a job.

I would be more than happy to have an intelligent discussion about the problems within the Roman Catholic Church on my own time, even though I know more about the Orthodox Church which certainly has its own flaws and historical problems and I would be more than glad to list many atrocities committed in the name of Allah which outweigh both the Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant churches combined.

I would take hours of time typing some of them out if I had the slightest indication that you were really interested in something other than trashing Roman Catholicism, I'd take the time. As it is, there have been plenty of examples in recent history or you could take the time to look up what has gone on in Turkey, Pakistan, the Middle East etc. There is plenty to see and read about.

As it is, you only seem interested in a pissing contest for entertainment and an excuse to air your hatred for Christianity. I don't have the time nor the desire nor the patience to waste my time with an anti-Christian stranger named AlexRander on a chat site. I've read more than enough of your anti-Christian comments to know your views and that you are not interested in a productive discussion.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Tr you are wrong. Muslim scientists were figuring the circumference of the earth, a measurement not to be surpassed in accuracy till the 20th century back in the tenth century when Islam was already hundreds of years old. Their advances in medicine were being made at the same time. Your prejudice against Muslims is just that, prejudice. You never address the blood and guts in your bible. It is there. Does the Muslim read your bible and judge you accordingly?

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elvis

Your prejudice against Muslims is just that, prejudice. You never address the blood and guts in your bible. It is there

Your prejudice against TR is just that, prejudice...it is there.

Ever seen TR's work? It is beautiful.

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, I am not prejudices against TR. I am prejudiced against prejudice. I am thrilled that she has a faith she can believe in. I am not thrilled that she doesn't give Muslims the same respect. We have militant unpleasant Christians in this country. Remember that White Supremacists don't just identify as Christian in a nice milksop sort of way. They are inspired by the old Testament version of belief in God. There are plenty of Blood and Thunder old testament informed fundies-sort of what makes you a fundamentalist Christian. They at least talk death and destruction to unbelievers. What is Muslim to make of that?

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elvis

I am not thrilled that she doesn't give Muslims the same respect....

You don't have to be.

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alexrander

It would be interesting to hear what TR has to say about one of our American founding fathers, Thomas Paine, the person who inspired the revolution with 'Common Sense" and saved George Washington and the American revolution with "The Crisis Papers" {these are the times that try men's souls} and later gave his view of Jesus and Christianity in a 3 part essay called "The Age of Reason".

"Paine, who coined the phrase "Religion of Humanity" (The Crisis, vii., 1778), did but logically defend it in "The Age of Reason," by denying a special revelation to any particular tribe"

Quote:

" But the 25th chapter of The Gospel according to Matthew makes Jesus Christ to preach a direct contrary doctrine to The Gospel according to Mark; for it makes salvation, or the future happiness of man, to depend entirely on good works; and those good works are not works done to God, for he needs them not, but good works done to man.

The passage referred to in Matthew is the account there given of what is called the last day, or the day of judgment, where the whole world is represented to be divided into two parts, the righteous and the unrighteous, metaphorically called the sheep and the goats. To the one part called the righteous, or the sheep, it says, "Come ye blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world — for I was an hungered and ye gave me meat — I was thirsty and ye gave me drink — I was a stranger and ye took me in — Naked and ye clothed me — I was sick and ye visited me — I was in prison and ye came unto me." "Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered and fed thee, or thirsty and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger and took thee in, or naked and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick and in prison, and came unto thee?

"And the king shall answer and say unto them, verily I say unto you in as much as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Here is nothing about believing in Christ — nothing about that phantom of the imagination called Faith. The works here spoken of, are works of humanity and benevolence, or, in other words, an endeavour to make God's creation happy. Here is nothing about preaching and making long prayers, as if God must be dictated to by man; nor about building churches and meetings, nor hiring priests to pray and preach in them. Here is nothing about predestination, that lust which some men have for damning one another. Here is nothing about baptism, whether by sprinkling or plunging, nor about any of those ceremonies for which the Christian church has been fighting, persecuting, and burning each other, ever since the Christian church began. If it be asked, why do not priests preach the doctrine contained in this chapter? The answer is easy; — they are not fond of practicing it themselves. It does not answer for their trade. They had rather get than give. Charity with them begins and ends at home".

All 3 Parts:
https://thefederalistpapers.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-Age-of-Reason-by-Thomas-Paine.pdf

also Part one and two found here: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3743

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patriciae_gw(07)

Elvis, do you take anything seriously?

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miss lindsey (still misses Sophie)(8a)

I just saw a comment for the first time and since I was mentioned in it, I'd like to address it.

Texasranger said:

"Your jumping to conclusions about a boy's name shows your bias, paranoia and tendency to label anything remotely suspicious as probably White Supremacist---after all there is one under every rock and behind every tree and they are EVERYWHERE."

These were my exact words regarding that name:

"one day I hear (sic) a mom call her son Aryan and that took me aback but I figured, young mom, not well-educated, and the word itself has a nice ring that suits the current naming trend. Not going to worry too much about it."

"elvis and tr, yes, at the time I chalked his name up to parents who had not gotten a comprehensive education and so did not know the connotations of the word in western culture. It wasn't until other pro-nazi sentiments started popping up in the community that I wondered if it might be a deeper issue...Connotations matter." (emphasis added when quoting for clarity)

Taken on its own I didn't think the name was anything more than Not My Style. It was subsequent acts of overt racism in our community that made me wonder if it actually is more.

Surely Nazi propaganda, painted swastikas, and attacks on businesses owned by people with brown skin are more than just "remotely suspicious." Surely we can agree that those things are unacceptable and we should speak out against this mindset ??

I stand by my statement that the mindset is everywhere. It isn't tolerated everywhere, but where it is tolerated or ignored or denied it can take hold easily it seems. A slippery slope, maybe?

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MissMyGardens

Elvis, my citation was direct quote from TexasRanger post and I was addressing what he/she said...not you. Didn't want to misquote so used as posted.

texasranger2 "Elvis,
no joke, we really may have to "hide under rocks" one day for
protection from the dreaded omnipresent Thought Police who listen to our
every word waiting to scoop down and punish us for breaking liberal
censorship laws or Islamic blasphemy laws ."

elvis ["you this" "you that"]

[I don't have a religion, so save it, mmg.]

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texasranger2

alexrander

I don't have a lot to say about Thomas Payne's Bible interpretation you attached, because its not worth anything theologically, he's a deist. He obviously makes the Bible fit in with his own ideas but then he was well known as a hater of organized religion (tyranny) and considered his mind his church, which is rather akin to worshiping one's self.

He thought "good people go to heaven when they die". Sounds like the kind of thing a 3 year old would say but I'm suddenly wondering where he thought bad people went? Does he say anywhere? Anyway its one dimensional and extremely bad theology (he'd get an F in Theology 101). He comes across rather like an amatuer's theologian--- someone a secularist would quote if they were trying to impress others as to how modern and enlightened their ideas about religion are. Sort of like people who quote "Religion is the opiate of the masses" and think they sound like scholars when they say something so "original".

He's certainly no John Chrysostom, Athanasius or Gregory of Nyssa.

Here's my 'favorite' gripe about deists. They think the central goal in life is to be happy and feel good about themselves which is of course pagan and hedonistic. Again its not only bad theology, its not theology at all but it sounds oh so 'deep, progressively liberal and evolved' to say it. "hey dude, that's deep man"

People who think they should be happy all the time and "feel great about one's self" are simply expecting to "live the good life". Its a very shallow and childish idea but its typical thinking by people who hate the idea that there could be anything greater than themselves and or that there is anything more important than their own self-centered desires & interests.

I always wonder how people who think like this handle life's inevitable difficulties & problems such as sickness, death of a loved one or misfortunes. Such a shallow ideology doesn't leave a person anything of substance to draw from. Belief like that can easily end up nihilistic and hopeless at worst and almost always materialistic at best. A lot of people think exactly that way in today's radically secularized society. If you ask me, thats a big part of the problem in America today with guns, violence, drugs, break down of the family, suicides, depression, abortion etc.

Obviously all of Payne's ideas are utterly at odds with the Orthodox faith I have embraced and other Christian Traditions as well. I have no interest in Thomas Payne's idea of religion myself but you seem impressed, otherwise, I don't think you would have have put it out there.


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alexrander

I put it out there because our country was founded on the principles and beliefs of people like Thomas Paine. He gave us the name 'The United States of America.'

I take your point however, Paine was no theologist, but rather a critic, who did not need to imagine a personal supernatural father figure type entity. He thought Christian theology was just fables and fairy tales. "For what is the amount of all his prayers but an attempt to make the Almighty change his mind, and act otherwise than he does? It is as if he were to say: Thou knowest not so well as I."

John Chrysostom= Hated Jews, hated homosexuals (self hate?)

Chrysostom loathed homosexuality.[51] His most notable discourse in this regard is his fourth homily on Romans 1:26–27

... [The men] have done an insult to nature itself. And a yet more disgraceful thing than these is it, when even the women seek after these intercourses, who ought to have more shame than men.[52]

He describes homosexuality as the worst of sins, greater than murder. He asserts that punishment will be found in hell for such transgressors... – such an individual deserves to be "driven out and stoned".

Athanasius= Athanasius' works on ascetism include a Discourse on Virginity, a short work on Love and Self-Control ...Wikipedia (more self hate?)

I think I see the connection...

And while Gregory of Nyssa wrote of Moses, so did Tom Paine, mercilessly. I think I prefer the logic and reason of someone like Pierre Abelard (a lover of women who paid a price for his love of Heloise.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Age of Reason. Paine's religious views were the private views of Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin. And the mystic poet William Blake kept his company and warned him to escape England for France (where he was almost guillotined). His words mimicked the thoughts of Spinoza,Voltaire and David Hume on the subject of religion.

Still we have such people to thank, along with the age of enlightenment for this humble country of ours. It's not exactly Putin's state controlled Russian Orthodox church, at least not yet.

Paine's view on religion had other admirers, including Thomas Edison and President Lincoln.... "Noll argues Lincoln was turned against organized Christianity by his experiences as a young man witnessing how excessive emotion and bitter sectarian quarrels marked yearly camp meetings and the ministry of traveling preachers.[13]
As a young man, Lincoln enjoyed reading the works of deists such as Thomas Paine. He drafted a pamphlet incorporating such ideas but did not publish it. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Abraham_Lincoln

Back then, public people had to make a show of being religious. Paine was just more up front about it. And he also paid a price for it. But he probably thought it was worth it. And you TR, reap the benefit. Your 'gripe' against Paine is based on your shallow understanding of a philosophy that inspired the founding of this country. You seem to think his life principles were all about being happy. A man who suffered deeply for causes he believed in. As Paine himself said...

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead"

"You will do me the justice to remember, that I have always strenuously supported the Right of every Man to his own opinion, however different that opinion might be to mine. He who denies to another this right, makes a slave of himself to his present opinion, because he precludes himself the right of changing it."

"It is the duty of every man, as far as his ability extends, to detect and expose delusion and error."

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texasranger2

alexrander, You sound like a person taking his anger out on God, religion and anyone 'dead' enough to refuse the 'medicine' you are pushing. There is a new breed of evangelical atheists today aggressively spreading the gospel of their beliefs in an effort to convert others to atheism and radicalized secularism who are intent on "exposing the errors' of past traditions and religious doctrine of those still living under 'delusion' and out to destroy moral values, religion and traditional ideas you cannot abide.

You sound typical of the secular left who dominate our schools, universities, the media and Hollywood and who are intent on promoting hedonism, deadening conscience & perpetuating extreme individualism and who detest anyone who does not subscribe to their grand utopian plan. They are like the people in power in C. S. Lewis's book 'That Hideous Strength'.

You are as aggressive in your proselytizing as those you mock and abhor.

The Russian Orthodox Church survived decades of atheistic communism and persecution and it will still remain when Putin is dead and gone either silently underground or visibly above ground or in the diaspora. Russian's have come out of the years of forced atheism and are now openly celebrating the thousands of martyrs who suffered and died under the totalitarian atheistic regimen in spite of its effort to destroy the Church and Christian belief which it failed to do. The Church is supported by Putin, not controlled by Putin any more than the Church is controlled by Trump in this country or Assad in Syria because you cannot destroy what is ingrained in people's hearts and souls. That is why it is called The Church of Martyrs, who we venerate and why the Church is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The Holy Orthodox Church has survived over 2000 years intact which is more than you can say for Atheistic Communism or any other earthly political system. Her altars have remained clean and her sacraments have not changed. She will continue to defend her beliefs, to the death if need be, in any political sphere and all the powers of darkness cannot prevail against her.


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patriciae_gw(07)

"To the death if need be" and yet TR, you see your beliefs as different from Islam. Where in the New Testament do you find the idea that your church must defend itself to the death? This is what I am trying to make you see. From the outside where I am I don't see any difference between religions. Even Buddhists whose religion teaches tolerance and peace kill people of different beliefs.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Anyone for Christian values like humility?

Do unto others?

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texasranger2

Patriciae I was speaking of persecution as in the case of the gulag under Stalin or refusing to convert to Islam at the edge of a sword or being forced to go against one's conscience in a secular society where there are those who are intent on forcing their dogma onto everyone using legal bullying.

It is obvious what you are trying to make me see and its obvious why. As you say, you are on the outside where you see no difference. That kind of ignorance makes it impossible to discuss something so complex with someone who doesn't really care one way or another----Islam, Buddhism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Fundamentalist Christianity, Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox---its all the same to me or maybe what you mean is its "all hogwash to me".

That is as silly as me saying North Korea, The United States, France, Spain, Bosnia, India---whats the diff---its all the same to me. I can't see any difference between North Korea and the United States. They are both countries after all and both of them do bad things.


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tony jelly

The way to preserve one's belief is to close your mind to anything new or different and defend it to the death if need be. Without doubt, there is blind acceptance of whoever's teaching you chose to follow, if this does no harm then there is no problem. On the other hand, when your particular 'ism' cannot accept the legitimacy of any other 'ism,' the death in question is more likely to be theirs.

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texasranger2

tony you are misinterpreting my meaning.

I take the blame for not being clear but thought it was obvious since I had just referred to what happened in Russia under the Soviet regime, the gulag camps and deaths which resulted in thousands of martyrs which are now being venerated.

I should have said defend our faith by bravely standing up for what we believe, remaining firm in that belief rather than cowardly and stay true to it even under the threat of being killed or martyred for those beliefs.

Is there any idea or thing you would sacrifice your life in defending?

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alexrander

I do not feel anger towards 'God' anymore than I do towards the Tooth Fairy or the Easter Bunny, nor would I believe in human sacrifice even if I was told that by scapegoating someone my sins would be cleansed. Perhaps that is why there were so many lynchings in the South and spirituals like " Are You Washed in the Blood of the Lamb?" were sung. Sort of a re-enactment of Jesus on the cross. Another black person dies for the sins of the white community. Did Emmitt Tell also call out "Why have you forsaken me?" as he was tortured? Its grim. But these people were 'good Christians".

Luckily we have the principles of Jefferson and Paine and the separation of church and state written into our Constitution.

Meanwhile Putin gets a Serbian church named after him. Ironic but not surprising in the age of Trump. https://www.sfgate.com/news/world/article/Ahead-of-visit-Putin-gets-church-in-Serbia-named-13531379.php#photo-16767846



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texasranger2

"Meanwhile Putin gets a Serbian church named after him. Ironic but not surprising in the age of Trump"

First, I can't see what Trump has to do with a new church being built in Serbia.

Second, your remark is inaccurate which means you are spreading fake news. A lot of Serbs are jokingly calling the new church "Putin's church" which is not the same as naming the church after him which will never happen if its an Orthodox Church.

I am always happy to hear about a new church being built.

Since the fall of Communism in Russia about 25,000 Orthodox churches have been built or restored in Russia.

Like I said in an earlier post, I am grateful for separation of church and state although its getting rather precarious with the liberal progressives pushing their aggressive ideology onto the whole country, including Christians, calling for churches and other Christian institutions who are not in compliance with their dogma concerning reproductive rights, LGBT, SSM and gender demands to be punished by loosing their tax free status and labeled hate groups if they practice their faith according to their conscience and beliefs and refuse to fall into obedient compliance to the progressive liberal orthodoxy.

The increasing trend of religious testing for vetting judges and other government positions is blatantly intrusive and inquisitional. It constitutes bullying behavior, censorship, ostracizing, public humiliation and the loss of freedom of speech and thought.

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ubro(2a)

The increasing trend of religious testing for vetting judges and other government positions is blatantly intrusive and inquisitional.

Nope, it speaks to the need to know that the people at the top will respect separation of church and state. They can be as religious as they please but if they show themselves to be radically involved in any religion that can colour their judgements.

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