Gun Violence is our Real National Emergency

sunflower_petal(5a)

“If we really want to start talking about the national emergency like the president likes to talk about, 40,000 Americans dying annually from gun violence is a pretty damn good one to start off with,”

“Both Democrats and Republicans die from gun violence. Bullets don't discriminate and neither should our legislators,” David Hogg said.

A new bill will be introduced on Tuesday and will mark eight years since the shooting that wounded Gabby Giffords and left six other people dead. The bill will also issue background checks on those who attempt to purchase firearms online or at gun shows with exceptions for law enforcement, ABC News reported.


newsweek.com/david-hogg-trump-national-emergency-gun-violence-border-wall-1283907


I agree that more people in America are personally affected by gun violence than the border situation. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do both, of course we can and should. But gun violence is getting virtually no attention by Trump and his administration.

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woodnymph2_gw

Gun violence, yes, and I would add to that climate change and global warming.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

David Hogg, relevant again. That's gonna grind some shorts.

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purrmich_7_

Where was the Oval Office speech when there was one massacre after another? How was that not a national emergency?

President Obama spoke from the heart about Sandy Hook. trump spoke from his wallet last night.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

It is very revealing what people chose to champion when it comes to American people. Far more people in America are affected by gun violence. Why not help them?

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

Guns are sacred, poor desperate families from south of the border are not.

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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catticusmockingbird

Fran Townsend was on CBS This Morning. She said the same thing ... domestic terrorism is our #1 threat.




https://www.cbsnews.com/video/no-talk-about-a-larger-strategy-on-border-security-in-trump-speech-townsend-says/

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sunflower_petal(5a)



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blfenton

And he has already declared the Opioid crisis a National Emergency. How many national emergencies can American absorb and solve?

He blames the illegal immigrants with bringing in drugs which is factually incorrect. They come in through proper border posts in compartments build into cars and trucks and they come in through air and sea.. It seems to me that if you take that $5B and apply it to the opioid crisis you can kill two birds with one stone.

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tony jelly

Anyone know the figure for deaths from lack of health care, I bet that beats those killed by undocumented people.

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sunflower_petal(5a)
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terrene(5b MA)

Gun violence, yes, and I would add to that climate change and global warming.

Yes I agree we have lots of problems, but climate change is the real emergency, unfortunately it is a relatively slow-moving threat with a 10-40 year lag in the full effects of greenhouse gas emissions (due to the thermal inertia of the oceans), and apparently our monkey brain does not process this threat very effectively.

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cait1

@ tony jelly

Anyone know the figure for deaths from lack of health care, I bet that beats those killed by undocumented people

Death comes to everyone and no amount of health care will fix that.

I'm more curious about how many die from medical mistakes.

This 2013 scientific America article says estimates for 2014 were figured to be between 210,000 and 440,000 deaths per year.

Now comes a study in the current issue of the Journal of Patient Safety that says the numbers may be much higher 2014 between 210,000 and 440,000 patients each year who go to the hospital for care suffer some type of preventable harm that contributes to their death, the study says.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-many-die-from-medical-mistakes-in-us-hospitals/

More people die from medical mistakes by far than gunshot wounds. Maybe we should be more worried about that.

Life is a risk, health care or no health care.

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tony jelly

Exactly cait, there are more important and real problems than the stoopid wall.

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cait1

Exactly tony jelly, there are more important and real problems than stoopid dems trying to abrogate the 2nd Amendment.

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tony jelly

You lost me there cait, what?

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Chi

More lies. Sensible gun control is not the same as getting rid of the 2nd amendment.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

That's right Chi, it's not the same. Time for gun nuts to grow up and think about the rest of the people who live here.

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blfenton

Life is a risk - cait

You call being 6 years old and going to school and getting shot and killed a life risk?

You call going to a music concert and getting killed by a mass shooter a life risk?

You call going to work to make money to put food on the table and instead get killed by a mass shooter a life risk?

Wow.

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purrmich_7_

Australia has a low rate of gun deaths. They have laws in place that favor the innocent over gun lovers.

And interestingly enough, some love living there. Many choose to.



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kaych

More people die from medical mistakes by far than gunshot wounds. Maybe we should be more worried about that.

Not too many interested in that cait as this recent thread shows, in case you missed it. Guns are important to restrict so they can slowly take away the 2ndA, because then they can more easily take away all of our 1stA freedoms too.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5575327/do-you-support-bill-to-curb-the-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us#n=50

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Chi

No one wants to take away the 2nd amendment. Well, maybe a few people, but most don't. I don't care if people want a gun to defend themselves or their home. I do care that mentally ill people can go in and buy an assault rifle. There are many opportunities for improvement that won't take away the rights of law-abiding citizens to own firearms.

Our gun culture is just one of the many divides that is destroying the US. I think it's too far gone to fix. There's no common sense anymore, just hysterics and hyperbole.

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kaych

Time for gun nuts to grow up and think about the rest of the people who live here.

I agree! The law abiding gun owner's & those who fought for our right to own them far outnumber those against them. The gun grabbing nuts need to grow up & face that fact.

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kaych

I do care that mentally ill people can go in and buy an assault rifle. There are many opportunities for improvement that won't take away the rights of law-abiding citizens to own firearms.

I've said it many times here, the focus of mass murderers (for example) to guns IMO is misdirected. There are many foundations that have been torn apart in this country that used to steer peoples lives. So many now turn to (or are turned to) mind altering drugs to 'cope' & I haven't heard of a mass murderer yet that wasn't once on them.

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Chi

Is that uniquely American though? Different foundations, mental health issues, medication, drugs, bad parenting? Other countries have these issues but don't have our mass shootings.

That's where I struggle in this debate. There is nothing unique about America that explains mass shootings other than guns and gun culture.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" I agree! The law abiding gun owner's & those who fought for our right to own them far outnumber those against them. The gun grabbing nuts need to grow up & face that fact."

You want a gun to defend yourself? Get a gun. Provided that:

- you aren't a felon

- you buy only one

- you register it

- you prove that you took training

- you don't have mental health concerns

- you wait the required wait period to get it


That's not too much to ask, is it?

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floodwaters

Im not a felon, I will buy as many s I want, I wouldn't ever dream of registering any of my guns, Ive been training my entire life, I have 0 mental issues, and I will wait as long as it takes me to fill out the 2247 form. thanks anyhow.

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Fárbauti

Most of the people dying of "gun violence" are actually suicides. If we take away guns and they start hanging themselves will we be doing rope control next?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I'm not sure that single death suicides should be counted in gun violence statistics. As you suggest, people that really want to kill themselves find a way. Reducing access to guns would probably reduce it some as people would have to think harder about how to do it but it would never get it down completely.

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Fárbauti

Look, a society which has freedom can never be completely safe. There will always be some people who abuse that freedom, and that's a risk we accept because the benefits of being free far outweigh it. The reality is, gun owners in the US are in the hundreds of millions and those who misuse them to hurt others are in the thousands. People also drive drunk and kill others, we don't require interlock ignition devices on every car. We should not infringe on the constitutional rights of hundreds of millions of law-abiding Americans because of a few bad apples. And that goes for far more than just guns.

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Chi

This isn't about suicides. This is about mentally ill people legally buying and using guns capable of killing dozens of people in seconds. This hasn't happened once or twice. This has happened many, many times.

I am sure this is not what our founders had in mind when writing the 2nd amendment and I believe they purposely left it vague to leave room for common sense measures that still protect the rights of Americans to own guns.

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Chi

"We should not infringe on the constitutional rights of hundreds of millions of law-abiding Americans because of a few bad apples."

It's not a constitutional right to be able to buy an assault rifle. It's also not a constitutional right to be able to buy guns quickly and easily and not have to register them.

I also think it's interesting that you are so dismissive of these mass murder deaths which number into the hundreds if not thousands, but a handful of people are murdered by undocumented immigrants and you want to throw billions and billions at a wall. Why do you want to fix that problem and not guns? And it has nothing to do with the Constitution. Gun control laws would still allow responsible people to own guns, which is the only protection the Constitution gives.

Conservatives like to paint this picture of Obama and Hillary coming to everyone's homes and yanking their guns away but that's just hysterical lies meant to justify doing NOTHING while a real crisis happens.

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Fárbauti

What about a shotgun, are you ok with those? They can do far more damage than an "assault rifle". What about semi-automatic pistols?

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Chi

Depends. How many rounds per minute can a shotgun shoot vs. an assault rifle and how many rounds can it hold? Which is more deadly in a crowd?

I can see why people would need a shotgun. I don't see any reason why someone would need an assault rifle.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I don't think the constitutional right to own a firearm would need to go beyond owning a single firearm. Anything over a single firearm (per person) is just extra. So in a household with two adults, each adult could own one.

And I think the type of weapon should be considered, with no one needing to own an assasult rifle.

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Fárbauti

So if you wanted a weapon for hunting and a pistol to carry for self-defense, no go?

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

The bottom line is that the US is the only western nation with so much carnage resulting directly from the abundance and easy acquisition of firearms.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" So if you wanted a weapon for hunting and a pistol to carry for self-defense, no go? "

No, I'm just saying that the 2nd Amendment only guarantees that you can have one. If you have justification for a second kind for a different purpose, I would say you could apply for that subject to being approved.

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Fárbauti

It's silly to think that should guns go away, the crimes committed with those guns would go away too. Maybe a small portion, but criminals would simply resort to using other weapons, like knives.

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Fárbauti

No, I'm just saying that the 2nd Amendment only guarantees that you can
have one. If you have justification for a second kind for a different
purpose, I would say you could apply for that subject to being approved.

And what problem would that solve to justify making it significantly more difficult for hundreds of millions of law abiding American to exercise their constitutional 2nd Amendment rights?

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

What's silly is bringing up these same old baseless arguments - often using hypothetical scenarios - for maintaining the current situation. All other western nations have a level of control of guns that we do not, and at the same time do not have our same huge problem with gun violence.

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Fárbauti

All other western nations have a level of control of guns that we do
not, and at the same time do not have our same huge problem with gun
violence.

Doesn't mean there's no violence. You'd just be swapping gun violence for knife violence, blunt object violence etc. In the end you're going to end up with nearly the same amount of dead people and possibly more, as law abiding citizens become unable to defend themselves. Guns do save a lot of lives as well, and also prevent a lot of rapes and assaults, but democrats don't care about all that.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" And what problem would that solve to justify making it significantly more difficult for hundreds of millions of law abiding American to exercise their constitutional 2nd Amendment rights?"

Making it harder to get that second gun would not make it more difficult to exercise their rights because they already have the first gun; their right was exercised.

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Chi

"Maybe a small portion, but criminals would simply resort to using other weapons, like knives"

Someone isn't going to kill 50 people in a few minutes with a knife. A knife is not capable of doing the kind of mass carnage that these assault rifles can do.

I'd gladly exchange a knife for a gun in criminals hands any day.

Genuine question - do you think it's okay that a mentally ill individual can easily and legally purchase assault rifles?

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Fárbauti

The second amendment states "to keep and bear arms". Plural. This is consistent with the Heller decision where "bear arms" was interpreted by the SC as "have weapons". Plural.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" The second amendment states "to keep and bear arms". Plural. "

Oh PUL-EEZE. That is just so comical. I literally laughed aloud.

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" It's plural because people is plural.

You can have a gun and multiple bullets. That's ARMS. Plural. Go for it.

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Fárbauti

Someone isn't going to kill 50 people in a few minutes with a knife. A
knife is not capable of doing the kind of mass carnage that these
assault rifles can do.

You're fixated on assault rifles for some reason. A semi-automatic pistol could do the exact same damage. A shotgun, which can shoot a dozen pellets at once, even worse when pointed at a group of people.

Mass shootings are exceedingly rare events. Exponentially more people are killed by knife every year than in mass shootings. 10 times more people are killed by pistol than by rifle or shotgun based on FBI stats. Your drive to ban "assault weapons" is based in emotion, not fact, and is very misguided.

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Chi

"Mass shootings are exceedingly rare events."

There were over 300 mass shootings last year alone in the US.

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Chi

So how do we stop these massacres? Do we just accept them as a part of life? What's your solution?

If you don't want to do any gun control, we could start with single payer healthcare so that cost won't be an obstacle to getting mental health care like it is now. That might help.

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kaych

Chi

Is that uniquely American though? Different foundations, mental health issues, medication, drugs, bad parenting? Other countries have these issues but don't have our mass shootings.

What makes America unique is our 2nd Amendment, & foundations cannot be different or they wouldn't be called foundations. Of course a mentally disturbed person shouldn't be "allowed" to have a gun, but then who gets to decide that, & what stops them from obtaining a gun by theft or other means? Drug issues also are fairly unique to this country with commercials & the vast control that drug companies have. The fight over better protecting our borders would help to keep out disturbed people, drugs, & people who obviously don't believe in following laws. So why make more gun laws that criminals will never obey & restrict the majority who do obey them?

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kaych

There were over 300 mass shootings last year alone in the US

Wrong. Do you google believe that or can you back it up with facts?

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Fárbauti


the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" It's plural because people is plural.

So then by your interpretation, the 4th amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers

only means you have the right to be secure in one house, one paper. Talk about laughable.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Yawn.

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Chi

There were over 300 mass shootings last year alone in the US

Wrong. Do you google believe that or can you back it up with facts?

https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2018

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floodwaters

Different guns are made for different uses. Any one with I gun doent do a lot with it. hell, Lots of shooters will have 5-6 of the same caliber or 10 pistols of the same type for their sport. The 2nd amendment also clearly states, uninfringed, you can look that up if ya don't know the meaning. Its actually quite clear stating "the people shall be armed". I don't know, the people who argue against the 2nd must not have good comprehension, but I bet they just say stupid things because they cant come up with a real argument??

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Chi

Its actually quite clear stating "the people shall be armed".

Where does the Constitution say that?

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Fárbauti

A lot of it is gang violence/drive-by/drug related.

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Chi

Still curious if anyone who is against gun control has a solution? How do we make it safe to go to kindergarten classrooms, high schools, movie theaters, concerts?

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Fárbauti

Well start by securing those or locations, or, if you don't want to secure them, allow people to defend themselves. Unsecured gun free zones make for soft targets where everyone is a sitting duck. And that's exactly what criminals go for.

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Chi

Of course a mentally disturbed person shouldn't be "allowed" to have a gun, but then who gets to decide that, & what stops them from obtaining a gun by theft or other means?

Here's the problem though - the vast majority of guns used in 10 recent mass shootings were bought legally and with a federal background check. At least 9 gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems and they were still allowed to get their weapons.

Doesn't this indicate a problem with the system? Why is it so easy to get guns?

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html

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Chi

Well start by securing those or locations, or, if you don't want to secure them, allow people to defend themselves. Unsecured gun free zones make for soft targets where everyone is a sitting duck. And that's exactly what criminals go for.

So armed guards in all kindergarten classrooms and movie theaters? How would we pay for that if many school districts can barely pay their teachers?

Thanks for answering sincerely. I do appreciate it.

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Fárbauti

At least 9 gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems

The vast majority of people with "mental health problems" including depression and stuff like that don't hurt anyone. I think denying people the right to own a weapon based on "documented mental health problems" would be counterproductive. If I knew getting diagnosed with depressions means I might never be able to get a weapon to defend myself or my family, I may not go in the first place. I also don't think anyone should be deprived of their constitutional rights without due process.


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Fárbauti

So armed guards in all kindergarten classrooms and movie theaters? How
would we pay for that if many school districts can barely pay their
teachers?

That or armed teachers that are properly trained and get paid a little more. All federal buildings have armed security and/or metal detectors. We should do the same for our children, I don't have a problem spending federal dollars on this.

Movie theaters are private businesses. They should either enforce no-gun policies via metal detectors and armed guard - at their expense - or get rid of no-gun policies so law-abiding citizens can carry and defend themselves.

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Chi

I do agree that we have to be careful with the mental health issues. I do think there's a difference between someone with depression and someone committed to psychiatric hospitals, or someone self-reporting hallucinations or other serious mental health issues like a couple of these gunmen.

I think the bigger issue is the background checks. One man was convicted of assaulting his wife and breaking his son's skull, but passed two federal background checks and legally bought his guns. Another had FBI investigations into terrorist ties and still legally bought 2 guns. Another was denied a concealed carry permit because he was accused of domestic violence but was still able to buy a gun legally. A convicted drug dealer was able to buy a gun legally. Another legally bought a gun because of a federal rule that says a gun can be sold if the background check system doesn't return a decision in 3 days.

There's room for improvement.

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kaych

Chi I encourage you to read up on this which includes an important part; the definition. 2 very different sources:

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/culture/articles/truth-about-mass-shootings-us

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/


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Fárbauti

There's room for improvement.

Sure there is. We should work on better enforcing existing laws before we consider passing more. We may find they are sufficient and do the job quite well when properly applied.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" We should work on better enforcing existing laws before we consider passing more "

Still no one seems to be doing that. Why is that?

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Chi

Okay, to play devil's advocate, even if I go by that definition, there are still 12 mass shootings in one year, with 80 deaths last year, 117 deaths in 2017 and 71 in 2016. These numbers should be alarming. They are much, much, much higher than deaths by undocumented immigrants.

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kaych

They are much, much, much higher than deaths by undocumented immigrants.

The biggest difference is that the very fact they are here illegally means they could be mostly prevented & not so fast discounting the number of deaths caused by illegals.

ww.ojjpac.org/memorial.asp

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arthurpym

The law abiding gun owner's & those who fought for our right to own them far outnumber those against them.

Another outright lie.

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floodwaters

You are right chi, I mis spoke. What I sated, shall be armed, is written many times in the founders correspondence backing reasoning for the 2nd amendment.

So do numbers actual;ly matter. the constitution is for all the people. It doesn't really say how many? Not everyone has to agree. It is the document which defines this country. Dems, the socialists, or leftists or America haters, are not interested in law enforcement. They do not oppose the rights of individuals per se, what they oppose is opposition to ther planned takeover of American values. Thjey hate personal freedoms, they hate capitalism. They think the American dream is dead! They know that to control the agenda, they must control the people. They cannot do that when the people have a means to preserve their rights. guns are a big part of self preservation as well as the preservation of individual rights. others are just dupes and ignorant. I don't talk about English literature because I am ignorant on the subject. yet, the ant crowd feels free to blather ignorantly about guns!! Its what they do.

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Chi

Wow, that's a whole list of generalizations and accusations and paranoia. It's quite a leap that we want gun control so that we can control people and take over the country. That's a new one.

And this is exactly why this country is so divided. It's impossible to have an actual, reasonable and mature discussion with these levels of hysteria and paranoid thoughts and outright lies about the other side. Such extremist views.

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Fárbauti

Okay, to play devil's advocate, even if I go by that definition, there
are still 12 mass shootings in one year, with 80 deaths last year, 117
deaths in 2017 and 71 in 2016. These numbers should be alarming.

The numbers are alarming, but you can't punish 100 million law abiding citizens over the actions of 12. You have more people struck by lightning than people who cause mass shootings. The media and the democrats sensationalize and politicize every incident to manipulate you and try to make you give up your rights out of fear. Don't fall for it.

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Chi

I suppose it's a difference in how we define punishment. I would hope law abiding citizens would be okay with being slightly inconvenienced to try to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

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floodwaters

No hysterics, no paranoia. I just pay attention to what dem politicians have said.

molon labe

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sunflower_petal(5a)

No hysterics for us either. Most Americans support the need for changes. While gun nuts say we should just enforce what we have, they're not doing anything to get it done (or even prove that it's not being done). Time for real action.

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Stan Areted


floodwaters

Im not a felon, I will buy as many s I want, I wouldn't ever dream of registering any of my guns, Ive been training my entire life, I have 0 mental issues, and I will wait as long as it takes me to fill out the 2247 form. thanks anyhow.


Ditto.

None of anyone's business how many guns we own.

NO WAY to registration.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I remember when seat belts first came out and people fought against 1) having them be required equipment and then 2) getting tickets for not using them.

1966–1970 – seat belts become standard

With seat belts now present in all American-manufactured cars, seat belt advocates turn to the grim task of convincing Americans to use them. Misconceptions spread like wildfire, convincing some that seat belts will prevent them from escaping their cars underwater or in a fire, and others that it was actually safer to be thrown from a car in an accident. Others assert that drivers compensated for the increased safety by driving more recklessly.

1970 – a hotly contested year

A Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard proposes that all vehicles made after January 1, 1973, include an automatic restraint system, i.e., air bags or automatic belts. The auto industry, knowing that it would have to increase production costs to meet the new standard, balks, leading to a decade of argument and delay.

1981 – seat belt use languishes

Worn down by a decade of argument over the automatic restraint system question, the NHTSA finally withdraws their proposal. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reports that only 11 percent of those in cars make use of their seat belts.

1983 – new restraint systems regulation

Realizing how much money automatic safety restraint systems would save them, State Farm Insurance Company brings the NHTSA to court over the matter. State Farm wins the case and the NHTSA is ordered to write a new regulation for automatic restraint systems.

1984 – NHTSA proposes seat belt regulations

The NHTSA proposes that automatic restraint systems be required in new vehicles unless mandatory seat belt laws covered two-thirds of population by September 1989. Automakers, safety advocates, and the NHTSA join forces to encourage states’ passage of such laws.

1985 – most states warm to seat belt laws

In startling contrast to the glacial pace of earlier attempts at seat-belt reform, it takes just one year for mandatory seat belt use propositions to be introduced in all states but Idaho and Nevada.

1989 – seat belt use is mandated

By September, 34 states had established seat belt use laws.


1995 – New Hampshire lags

On December 27, Maine finally passes a mandatory seat belt use law, leaving only New Hampshire without such legislation on the books.

1997 – a big year for safety

The CDC reports that seat belt use has increased to 68 percent.

2010 – seat belt use peaks

According to the NHTSA, seat belt use reaches 85 percent, with higher numbers common in the western states.


https://blog.esurance.com/seat-belt-history/

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Stan Areted

Seat belts are apples to oranges in the Second Amendment right to own and bear arms.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I'm more comparing it to your dislike of registering your guns: " NO WAY to registration."

Change is hard, but sometimes it helps the greater good. Registering guns would benefit society.

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Stan Areted

Nope.

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Fárbauti

How about registering with the government when you have an abortion.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I'm listening. What purpose would that serve?

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Fárbauti

Same as registering your guns.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

I don't really think so. Registering guns allows us to track them from one person to the next, so that if someone becomes a problem, we know if he/she has guns, how many, what kind.

If a woman has an abortion, how is that information helpful to anyone else? Is it so that guys can avoid having sex with her?

Should we keep a database of people who refuse to vaccinate their child? Get a flu shot?


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Perhaps today I'll get an answer.

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GOD

The supreme court has no issue with gun registration or mandatory insurance for owning guns.

I look forward to the day when that happens.

I'd exempt hunting shotguns, that's about it.

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

An armed guard at every public door and we must present our credentials or we are not allowed in. Outrageous! What happens when someone in charge goes on a fascist kick and decides the guards will block everyone who does not agree with the fascist's political ideas? Double-outrageous!

How some of you can claim you live in a constitutional democracy (except Cait--she claims she lives only in a constitutional republic) and argue for armed guards to check our credentials everywhere we go? Will the guards arrest us if our papers are not in order?

We used to be appalled at countries that operated that way. But now some of you are urging America to operate the same way.

Outrageous!

Kate

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Chi

It's really something else. Though I knew when a classroom of 5 years olds was gunned down and NOTHING happened, that our country was doomed. I find it hard to believe that the writers of the 2nd Amendment would approve of our current gun culture and all of the deaths in the name of preserving it.

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purrmich_7_

"Nope" is not an argument. The frw is very short on arguments when they're against thoughtful intelligent posters.


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Stan Areted


blfenton

Life is a risk - cait

You call being 6 years old and going to school and getting shot and killed a life risk?

You call going to a music concert and getting killed by a mass shooter a life risk?

You call going to work to make money to put food on the table and instead get killed by a mass shooter a life risk?

Wow.

Nope, first mass shooter I recall was Charles Whitman in 1966.

We had lots of guns around though--I recall unlocked vehicles parked at the ball field in front of the school buildings with rifles on gun racks. Loaded guns.

Twelve years attending that school and not one gun incident.

No incidents at music concerts, symphony performances (how many do you hear of at symphony performances, anyway?) didn't hear of anyone going to work and getting mowed down for no reason.

Just about everybody I knew had guns in the home--and children knew not to touch them.

This violence is a result of LIBERAL policies, of the intentional destruction of the nuclear family by encouraging selfishness to the point that children are not put first in a relationship, encouragement of divorce, encouragement of planned out of wedlock births, a coarsening of society, social relativism, hatred of worshipping a God, mocking of worshipping a God, selfishness across the board, all in the name of progress.

It's not guns, folks. It's failure of humans.

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Chi
  1. The United States is ranked #5 in divorce, following Luxembourg, Spain, France, and Russia. (https://www.unifiedlawyers.com.au/blog/global-divorce-rates-statistics/)

  2. For out of wedlock births, the US is ranked #24. (https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/out-wedlock-births-rise-worldwide)

  3. The US doesn't make the list of the 20 least-religious countries. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/most-religious-countries-in-the-world/)

If it was divorce, or single parenting, or out of wedlock babies, or atheism....why don't we see these rates of mass murder in other countries who have higher rates than us?

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floodwaters

So far everything addresses legal owners of firearms. What are your ideas for addressing criminals, ya know, the ones who don't go thru any legal channels, D Are they gonna register their guns? I would never, never consider registering a gun with the government. Stoopid, bad idea from the get go. Just dumber than dumb


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Chi

Why is registering a gun dumb?

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Stan Areted

Why is registering a gun dumb?

Is this a serious question?


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kaych

Why is registering a gun dumb?

Because it would be like demanding that criminals register as criminals, in that it ain't gonna happen.

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Kathy

If a person was caught with an unregistered gun they would go to jail. That would eliminate a lot of criminals. A gun is a lot more lethal than pot and they went to jail.

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Chi

Yes it's a serious question and the only answer I'm seeing is that criminals won't do it. Why is registering a gun a dumb idea?

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arthurm2015(Micro-Climate, Zone 10b Sydney, Australia)

There are many dumb, dumb, dumb first world countries where the murder rate per one hundred thousand people is about 1.

Murder rate in the USA is much higher.

Just say you have a big collection of guns and you cross the rainbow bridge, what will happen to your collection?

I think the main difference between those dumb first world countries and the USA is that the USA has more guns than people.

My Daughter's beloved has one rifle. He is a collector. Said rifle is in a locked cupboard which is inspected annually.

In my youth I had a .22 single shot rifle, it didn't form part of the dowry when I married the Dragon woman. I came with my clothes and the ironing board.

Then the little monsters arrived, with more than the usual amount of curiosity, thank goodness there were no guns in the house.

No doubt there will be more of the freedom bull-dust. Here there is the freedom of not worrying about other citizens carrying concealed weapons.

Edited a little bit.

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sableincal

And today in Davis CA another police officer was murdered, ambushed in cold blood. She was only 22 and had joined the Davis PD just a few months ago. Pictures of her brought tears to my eyes, she could have been my daughter. She was shot by a middle-aged man with severe schizophrenia. He was not supposed to have any guns, but police found two in his home, where they also discovered his body. a suicide.

I have lived in three countries where almost no one owned a gun, England, Israel, and Jordan; there was very little violent crime (at least in those days) and nobody whined about not having personal weapons. The Brits in particular simply did not understand our country. Having been married to a Brit I have known a lot of English people; they almost always like the U.S., but invariably bring up the gun problem with one word: "Why?"

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floodwaters

A collecter with 1 rifle/? I guess this guy is real serious eh~ Most of these quack ideas woul;d merely make 'criminals' out of good citizens. Not everybody is dumb. Who is gonna register their guns??? maybe 10% of gun owners, maybe.

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Stan Areted

kathy:

If a person was caught with an unregistered gun they would go to jail. That would eliminate a lot of criminals. A gun is a lot more lethal than pot and they went to jail.



What kind of world do you live in? Where I live people that break into others' homes with a gun and rape and rob and murder and they're out a few years later.

Guns are confiscated every day by police and they don't go to jail if they're juveniles (and several murders by juveniles with guns these last few months alone) and often get a slap on the wrist, as in no jail time.

Criminals will NEVER register guns. They will NEVER follow the law.

That's what makes them criminals.

Registering guns on a national basis will never happen in this country.

They can pass the legislation but it will never be compliance.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

For those interested in HR 8, this is a good explanation of what's in it (take note: a gun registry is not in it).


https://medium.com/@LaddEveritt/the-book-on-h-r-8-8abc255201ae?fbclid=IwAR2T90B_6kJW3J0Yr20Hy54-aIjqQ27fmqIxQrgAuRZczixKrYi69sW8yOY

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dockside_gw

Floodwaters wrote: Dems, the socialists, or leftists or America haters, are not interested in law enforcement. They do not oppose the rights of individuals per se, what they oppose is opposition to ther planned takeover of American values. Thjey hate personal freedoms, they hate capitalism. They think the American dream is dead! They know that to control the agenda, they must control the people.


Flood, in the past I have read your posts and, altho' I have rarely agreed with you, felt that you wrote posts that were worthwhile reading and considering. Unfortunately, after reading the above, I will no longer read them. I am left-leaning. I, and those who believe as I do, are none of the above. I love personal freedoms, do not hate capitalism (but feel it needs to be regulated in many respects), have no plans to nor do I support any "takeover of American values" . I do not think the American dream is dead and do not want to control "the people" (like banning abortion, revising the laws and Constitution to contain religious beliefs, unlike some on the right). And what the heck does "not interested in law enforcement really mean? Obviously, you don't know any left-leaning people or you are so steeped in hate of them that you don't care to really learn who they are and what they stand for. You have revealed who you really are in that regard and I no longer have any interest in what you think and say.

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floodwaters

That's cool with me dockside. Yes I know some lefties, a couple are even ggod friends because we NEVER talk politics. 1 admits he is probably a socialist. I don't think I actually hate anybody. Maybe h Clinton and Eric holder?? Maybe just a very strong dislike? Of course when speaking here I generalize, as do most here. I guess what I mean by no interest in law enforcement is. why do all things lfrom the left lean to punishing good people who follow laws generally, why isn't there more effort to actually address criminals and their activities, Why aren't these perps punished more often and more severly? this is what should be addressed, no what guns I might have or how many, or what kind of ammunition and how many I have. I will not cede my rights to anybody. I don't confuse rights(such as gun ownership) with priveleges(such as driving). I don't get too offended by postings here, I may not agree but that's life!

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"why do all things from the left lean to punishing good people who follow laws generally, why isn't there more effort to actually address criminals and their activities,"

You mean like how I'm always pushing to have employers in Iowa busted for hiring undocumented labor on dairy farms and meatpacking plants? Like even the family of a Republican congressman (who was not re-elected in 2018). Those law-abiding guys who keep getting away with this? People who actually provide the jobs that encourage these people to come to this country?


“Eighty percent of the Latino population out here in northwest Iowa is undocumented,” estimated one dairy farmer in the area who knows the Nunes family and often sees them while buying hay in nearby Rock Valley. “It would be great if we had enough unemployed Americans in northwest Iowa to milk the cows. But there’s just not. We have a very tight labor pool around here.” This person said the system was broken, leaving dairy farmers no choice. “I would love it if all my guys could be legal.”


https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california/


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Chi

I still haven't heard why registering guns is a bad idea. Just that criminals won't do it, and neither will lawful gun owners. Any other reasons?

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floodwaters

Why would the govt want a list of all the guns all gun owners have/?? Doesn't take much imagination to figure that one out does it? besides, it is no bodys business what or how many I have. That is my business unless I prefer someone else to know. The serial numbers are already known when ya walk out the store with any gun. But there is no centralized list with EASY access to ANYONE. Gun info can be supeoned and has a process to go by. You don't think some registration of guns, owners would be abused?? try and sell me a bridge somewhere too!

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Chi

Do you also refuse to register your vehicles?

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Stan Areted

floodwaters

Why would the govt want a list of all the guns all gun owners have/?? Doesn't take much imagination to figure that one out does it? besides, it is no bodys business what or how many I have. That is my business unless I prefer someone else to know. The serial numbers are already known when ya walk out the store with any gun. But there is no centralized list with EASY access to ANYONE. Gun info can be supeoned and has a process to go by. You don't think some registration of guns, owners would be abused?? try and sell me a bridge somewhere too!

Exactly.



CHi:

Do you also refuse to register your vehicles?


Why would anyone? Are there a bunch of people that don't care about your rights to drive a car and want your cars confiscated and registered so they can come get them when they finally get enough socialist-democrats-gimme gimme- control people in the government that want to do away with our constitutional protections and decide that your car MIGHT be a weapon, or produce too much exhaust and hurt the environment, or maybe it might be used to carry people to CHURCH--any number of reasons that are none of anyone's business but they don't approve of why and how you use it?

NO.

But there are people that would just LOVE to know who has guns and want to take them away, tax, or restrict your use of them, contrary to the Constitution and the Second Amendent, and the Fourth Amendment.

I never thought Bruce Jenner would be wearing high heels, lipstick, getting plastic surgery and trying to act like a femaleand I never thought socialists and antisemitic Israel haters would be elected to Congress and championed by the left, either.

Society is changing, I don't believe a word about registering guns will help.

Criminals will never register, why should non criminals?

Register guns across the board and we're done as a country with freedom and hope.



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sunflower_petal(5a)

" You don't think some registration of guns, owners would be abused??"

" Register guns across the board and we're done as a country with freedom and hope."

Wow, such fear.

Yet you feel perfectly fine dictating what a woman can do with her body.

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Chi

The 2nd amendment gives the right to bear arms. It offers no further protections, so requiring gun registrations would not be a violation of constitutional rights if a citizen was still able to acquire a gun.

I do agree that society is changing, and I am thankful every day. I was in high school during Columbine, so I am the first generation of millennials growing up in this era of violent mass shootings. Nearly 80% of millenials feel like our country has a big mass shooting problem and 78% feel that guns are too easy to acquire. I remain hopeful that as these young people become older and more politically involved, we will finally see some reasonable gun control action taken.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

Did you hear about the arsenal that was seized from white supremacists in Florida in November 2018?

Officers seized more than 100 firearms, a rocket launcher and several pipe bombs as part of the operation centres in Pasco County, Florida, according to a statement.

Authorities also seized “several pounds” of meth and fentanyl, ABC affiliate WFTS-Tampa Bay reported.

The U.S. Attorney's Office for the Middle District of Florida announced Thursday that 39 members of the Unforgiven and United Aryan Brotherhood gang had been arrested as part of the operation. (after a 3-year investigation).


https://www.newsweek.com/florida-authorities-seize-rocket-launcher-and-pipe-bombs-raids-white-1220555

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Stan Areted

sunflower__petal

Yet you feel perfectly fine dictating what a woman can do with her body.

Your making of assumptions has you batting 0 today.

I have never said that and in fact have said repeatedly I support abortion rights with limitations.

If you can't make a point, it's better to not type anything than coming up out of left field attributing viewpoints to me I've never expressed and to which I do not ascribe, and which have nothing to do with the topic, either.

You're trying too hard.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

Fair enough; thanks for the correction.

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Stan Areted

thanks.

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