When is a discussion not a discussion?

tony jelly

There is very little being discussed on HT at the moment, and a lot of the time there are only statements. Often the item posted has come up before and refuted so I can only assue that this means only that the forum is being used as a political platform, with no intention of stimulating a discussion

Take for instance the infamous 'WALL,' it seems evident to me that the crisis over the invasion of our southern border and undocumented people flooding in is a fiction. If I am right there must be another reason why Trump is prepared to go to the extraordinary lengths he has embarked on. This might be worth talking about rather than banging on with opposing fixed ideas.

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Chi

I think he made a promise that he has to keep, and he's doing everything he can to keep that promise. It's the only thing that make sense. I don't think he really even cares about the wall other than to rally up his base.

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Joaniepoanie

Hold onto the base, distract from Mueller, show Nancy Pelosi who's boss.

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d_gw

First, you have to realize that we are talking about a person who is not a normal human being. So, that skews the entire discussion right off the bat.

I agree with Chi that it is possible that Trump may be doubling down because he made promises about the wall to someone he fears.

Or it could be that he was deeply embarrassed by being called out by FOX about changing his mind about the wall and now he is trying to save face.


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THOR, Son of ODIN(2)

Why waste time on a carefully written response when anything truthful is removed within minutes?

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

I have wondered why the wall distraction at this particular time.

The obvious answer is Mueller, but there's also the disaster with trade and tariffs, the Syria announcement -- or is that just another distraction from other roiling disasters?

The Party of Trump is cheering their leader in an attempt to make a weak president seem strong, but the incoherent messages coming from the White House say anything but strong and decisive.

A temporary Trump malfunction, or the symptom of something greater? Ego or planned manipulation?

.

Wouldn't a Mueller indictment go good right now?

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chase_gw

But therein lies the problem Tony....

" it seems evident to me that the crisis over the invasion of our southern border and undocumented people flooding in is a fiction " .

...and the majority of Americans agree with you.

However, his supporters believe what he is saying and they believe there is some sort of national emergency at the Southern border because he says so and right wing media amplifies it.

The discussion should be facts based on what exactly the situation is at the order and then a plan to address in a comprehensive manner but Trump can't risk showing his base he is either wrong or manipulating them....so he doubles down on his deceitful rhetoric and they but it.

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d_gw

Do you think the base would abandon him if he backed down about the wall? They have been deluding themselves about Trump for years. Surely they can keep up the act and find some way to blame others for a wall failure.

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dandyfopp


If he got the funding tomorrow and laid the first brick, he would be crowing that the crisis!! disappeared like a fart in the wind. It would have to be a success, it would have to be immediate, and the bigliest ever, Donnie can tolerate nothing less in his self estimation. But who is the enemy then if not the subhuman hordes coming to rape and kidnap your children?

That is the last thing he wants. He doesn't want a wall. He wants his manufactured crisis. The point is dividing the country and maintaining power by maintaining the division. The lie keeps Donnie fans engaged.

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Kathy

It is like a 3 ring circus. You can’t concentrate on one thing because there is too much going on at once. It is what is going on in the background that will hurt US in the long term.

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Stan Areted

I do not know of ONE PERSON that supports Trump that thinks for one minute that he meant, or that any of us meant, that we want or expect an actual contiguous, physical wall.

Certainly, we expected and still expect physical barriers--of any sort that works--at certain areas if not to STOP illegal immigrants, at least slow them down so that border patrol can better do their job and they have more time to apprehend the illegal aliens before they slide into our country with no consequences.

I've always found it incredulous that knowing Trump's style, that anyone would actually take his words literally--as far as a "wall" as vs. "steel slats."

It makes absolutely no difference to me. If it could be done without any physical walls, go for it.

Some seem so hung up on "he will break his promise" if a physical stone, concrete or brick wall isn't built,and to people like me, if he stops or seriously curbs illegal immigration he has fulfilled his promise--the one I understood.

That is the understanding that matters when it comes to people that support Trump or would support him if he runs again in 2010.

Now, tonyjelly, here comes the point that the discussion point breaks down--after I submit my post.

This is when I usually hear how stupid I am, how racist I am, how Trump is lying to me and I'm so stupid I don't care, how Trump doesn't care about a wall he just wants adulation, etc.

In other words--personal attacks and discussing posters specifically or generally as "Trump supporters" or many other iterations of insults, and people like me realize there is no use in attempting a reasonable discussion.

The "crisis" is not fiction to the people it directly affects--landowners and U.S. residents of the border area.

The "crisis" is not fiction to those victims of the sexual slave trade and victims of the drugs coming in through our border.

The "crisis" is not fiction to people who must educate and carry the burden of illegal immigrants financially. Don't fool yourself, they do go to emergency rooms and they get treatment and many do not pay a dime. Case by case basis, it is something most people, myself included, want to do for people that need help. Collectively, it has become a serious problem. If nothing else--we have laws and all laws should be enforced. It is a very dangerous precedent for anyone to arbitrarily decide they aren't going to enact laws--especially for political advantage. This is what Democrats are now doing.

Okay, tony jelly. A reasonable, honest and cogent post.


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tony jelly

One item that is thrown into the mix is that walls work, I don't think this is true although 'work; may mean different things to different people. The point is, as Chase says, before we consider the efficacy of a wall we need to analyse what the real problem is before moving towards such an expensive 'fix.'

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chase_gw

They would absolutely not blame him. They would find some way to make it someone else's fault or an act of patriotism.

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Stan Areted


chase_gw

They would absolutely not blame him. They would find some way to make it someone else's fault or an act of patriotism.


See, tony jelly? SEE?

Proof of your words and my words following yours is just above.


tony jelly:

"Often the item posted has come up before and refuted so I can only assue that this means only that the forum is being used as a political platform, with no intention of stimulating a discussion."

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tony jelly

Stan you have jumped the gun, in assuming that the only way to deal with the problems you ascribe to people entering liiegally through the southern border, is a physical barrie; thereby shifting the discussion sideways.

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Ziemia(6a)

Well, we keep seeing reports that most Americans support policies that are the opposite 'of Trump' so his base (and I mean those at the heart of the disinformation efforts) support gins up distractions

"Poll: 68 percent of Americans support a national health plan"

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-pulse/2019/01/07/poll-68-percent-of-americans-support-a-national-health-plan-471118

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llucy

"Take for instance the infamous 'WALL,' it seems evident to me that the crisis over the invasion of our southern border and undocumented people flooding in is a fiction. If I am right there must be another reason why Trump is prepared to go to the extraordinary lengths he has embarked on."

Trump was ready to sign a bill passed by both the house and senate 2 weeks ago. Until...he got negative remarks from political entertainers Limbaugh, Coulter, Hannity.

And then there was this last week from SC senator Lindsey Graham:

"If he gives in now, that's the end of 2019, in terms of him being an effective president," Graham said. "That's probably the end of his presidency," he added.

I think listening to those people has influenced the extraordinary lengths he has embarked upon.


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Elly

What Joanie said. He is also bigly worried about not being re-elected in 2020. I think he may originally have believed that becoming president would be a huge feather in his cap. It usually is. Instead he is finding himself stripped of the secret darkness all crooks need in order to ply their trade, and the spotlight is getting brighter and brighter. He now probably regrets going down this road and his only hope is to be re-elected so he can take advantage of the statute of limitations, if in fact it is true that a sitting president cannot be indicted. Doesn't matter! He will not be re-elected.

Eliana

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Joaniepoanie

His base here on HT is already blaming the Dems....why isn't Nancy giving him such a piddly amount? Why won't she put a bill through Trump will sign?

You know....just like how the Repubs so graciously supported the ACA.


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d_gw

Stan, if you read the thread, before your post, I wondered if fear of losing the base was a valid reason for doubling down about the wall.

I'm pretty sure Chase's response had nothing to do with your post.

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Chi

I would appreciate an honest analysis of the border issues and possible solutions, other than "build that wall!" chanting and holding the country hostage. Something with actual facts and figures - how much a wall will cost to build and maintain each year, who will be contracted to build it, a projection of prevented border crossings. And then aside from the wall, I'd like a comprehensive approach to the bigger issue of visa overstayers, a look at current staffing levels at the border and an analysis of what could be done with additional budget, and an analysis on border technology and opportunities there. Has Trump submitted any of these things? An honest question. If not, why not?

I think he would get much further if he approached this issue with intelligence and unbiased data instead of throwing a fit.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" Don't fool yourself, they do go to emergency rooms and they get treatment and many do not pay a dime. "

Do you know that's because of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act passed in 1986? They are not going there for strep throat and getting free care.


It requires hospital Emergency Departments that accept payments from Medicare to provide an appropriate medical screening examination (MSE) to anyone seeking treatment for a medical condition, regardless of citizenship, legal status, or ability to pay. Participating hospitals may not transfer or discharge patients needing emergency treatment except with the informed consent or stabilization of the patient or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.[1]

An emergency medical condition (EMC) is defined as "a condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in placing the individual's health [or the health of an unborn child] in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of bodily organs." For example, a pregnant woman with an emergency condition and/or currently in labor must be treated until delivery is complete, the mother and fetus are stabilized, or a qualified personnel identifies the labor as a "false labor", or Braxton Hicks contractions, unless a transfer under the statute is appropriate.[9]

Patients treated under EMTALA may not be able to pay or have insurance or other programs pay for the associated costs but are legally responsible for any costs incurred as a result of their care under civil law.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act

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Ziemia(6a)

tony, the facts of the immigration problem have been shared - multiple times - here at HT. The noise of the back and forth by some have obscured those comments.

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Ziemia(6a)

"Has Trump submitted any of these things? An honest question. If not, why not?"

These things have NOT been submitted in a way viewable to Americans. That is step one and it hasn't happened.

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mrskjun(9)

They were for it before they were agin it. Nuff said.

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chase_gw

Tony , that is the real point. Trump has had two years to fully examine the issue, define it , document it and put together a comprehensive solution and detailed plan to address . It's not rocket science , it is how business is done.

Then Trump could have used it to request funds with real facts to substantiate. He also would have had a coordinated story to take to the American people not just from him but from all the various key players.

That's what good business people do......but he didn't do any of that because he is has no idea how to manage in an environment where he doesn't get up make all the calls unilaterally....where he doesn't always get his way.







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dandyfopp

He didn't do that because he is incapable yes.. but the bigger reason is the facts do not back him up.

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Ziemia(6a)

The overall numbers of folks crossing the border illegally is on a downward trend though it may have stabilized.

So the number of Americans that want Trump's Wall built is decreasing.

One solution that have been needed for years is increasing the capabilities of the courts handling asylum cases. I heard this weekend that Trump finally said he'd support this.

Another need is office / housing facilities for Border Patrol in the remote areas

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chase_gw

My post upthread was in response to d_gw. I was posting at the same time as Stan and had not seem his post....it had zero to do with anything he posted

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Now we have an illustration of how things tend to go on the board: the first several comments are what appear to be thoughtful replies to the subject posted by tony jelly. Then someone posts with the ad hominem/rote talking point/grudge response.

[I have to wonder, tho, why would anyone bother to write insults about our rightist members, when they keep repeating these things about themselves?]

I have listened to and read much serious reporting about the factual realities of what is going on at our southern border. I have posted links to articles and podcasts/radio reports of these things as well as excerpts of reports, transcripts, etc., and sometimes a member actually posts that they read or listened to them. I often think that the info is either overlooked or ignored.

Mostly I see repeated rote talking points and ad hominem bickering, so after a while, I don't bother trying to add information to many discussions.

And some people claim that they won't click any links - why, I don't know, since it's not a security issue. I'm guessing some people do not know how to properly operate their phones or tablets?

FWIW, my 2 cents - feeling a bit cynical today.


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Ziemia(6a)

And we have to ignore the lies being repeated about what Dem MoC have agreed to and have suggested.

Right now in the *current context* I agree that spending $5B for a Barrier is immoral. To getnoutnof the 'current context' we need a good description of what Trump means by 'The Wall' as his messages about show his thinking is VERY fluid.

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Ziemia(6a)

Does any Trump supporter have a link to a statement from the WH telling us what Trump intends to have built?

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Stan Areted


tony jelly

Stan you have jumped the gun, in assuming that the only way to deal with the problems you ascribe to people entering liiegally through the southern border, is a physical barrie; thereby shifting the discussion sideways.


tony jelly, you jumped the gun.

You made assumptions and ignored my post:


I said, in part:

"Certainly, we expected and still expect physical barriers--of any sort that works--at certain areas if not to STOP illegal immigrants, at least slow them down so that border patrol can better do their job and they have more time to apprehend the illegal aliens before they slide into our country with no consequences.

I've always found it incredulous that knowing Trump's style, that anyone would actually take his words literally--as far as a "wall" as vs. "steel slats."

It makes absolutely no difference to me. If it could be done without any physical walls, go for it."


  • SO why would I bother to take the time to post as I did and the same old tired accustions and assumptions are made?
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blfenton

I do wonder if say tonight, he were to come out and give honest real facts about the people coming through the southern border and so instead of building a concrete contiguous wall from one side of America to another that the money was going to be spent on more border crossings with supporting facilities. Facilities such as bigger waiting rooms, more people to process the applicants, etc.

And maybe start off by saying that illegal immigration coming through the southern border is already declining and numbers show that apparently only 12 people were stopped during fiscal 2018 because of a terrorist connection which could simply have meant someone with a similar name to someone on some list.

Despite what trump, Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Miss Nielsen would like us to believe, 4000 terrorists did not come through the southern border.

ETA - @carolb_ - I agree. I have quit posting links with interesting viewpoints as well.

@tony jelly - There are a couple of posters chijim and GOD to name a couple, who do post potentially interesting discussion threads and they sink faster than the stock market on some days in December.


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dublinbay z6 (KS)

What I see is that any time a poster expresses a view different than Trump's and/or his followers, his followers break into cries of "unfair" and "that's a personal attack" (etc.). That is one major reason why it is hard to engage in a real discussion. Once Stan (or other Trumpster) expresses his/her viewpoint, the rest of us are supposed to agree and be silent-or we are not being respectful.

That just isn't how discussions work.

I do find it notable, however, that Stan's view is very different than Trump's expressed view and is, in fact, very different from the views of the mass of Trump supporters out there.

Hard to know against which view one should be arguing.

Kate

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socks(10a)

Chi--he hasn't done any of the things you mentioned. Please don't hold your breath waiting for it.

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tony jelly

Once again you have hit the nail on the head Chase, if, in the two years he has been president he could point to his method of getting results as better than yours, and demonstate this convincingly that would be totally different. If he really did have an original genius for problem solving, I would view things differently, but he doesn't. Creating chaos, may be creative or purging. but at a certain point this methodology has to be proved. The creative result from his chaos is in galvanising his opposition and how clever is that?

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Ziemia(6a)

What I see is that no one can provide a statement from the WH that defines the proposed solutions. This would mean there is a specific plan to discuss.

We are left with discussing amorphous descriptions.

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Chi

Oh, I won't, Socks. I just think that's a good place to start, and his supporters never address it. I tried to bring it up recently, and it was deflected to Pelosi's comments on the ACA.

I can't see why anyone would be against a thorough, data-driven and unbiased analysis on the benefits of the wall, what it will cost, and who will build it. That should have been step 1. Instead Trump seems to want a blank check with zero accountability.

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foodonastump

Don’t debate what Trump says because he doesn’t mean it. Don’t question what Trump does because he may know something that no one else does.


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Stan Areted

dublinbay z6 (KS)

What I see is that any time a poster expresses a view different than Trump's and/or his followers, his followers break into cries of "unfair" and "that's a personal attack" (etc.). That is one major reason why it is hard to engage in a real discussion. Once Stan (or other Trumpster) expresses his/her viewpoint, the rest of us are supposed to agree and be silent-or we are not being respectful.

That is not true at all, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me, I simply do not CARE.

ANYONE, not President Trump, not conservatives, not my family members.

I don't need validation from anyone for my own opinons. They are what they are.

I think I can understand what Trump MEANS when he says things, and I can understand how people that don't agree with me about much of anything think the way they do.

There is a way to have reasonable, intelligent discussion and exchange of ideas and people with a modicum of respect for their fellow human beings now khow to do it--people without an agenda that has nothing to do with exchanging ideas, opinions and information.

Most people don't want any part of that. I do, but it's few and far between that the opportunity presents itself.


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blfenton

dublinbay (kate) - or you're told that if you hate America so much then leave. I;m not American (as most of you know) but every time I read that I want to smack my keyboard - that statement makes me angry.

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

Far right thinking is by definition arbitrary and harsh, with the involved desires typically including that any and all opposition be completely silenced.

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Chi

I would also like to know why he's barely spent any of the budget already allocated to him, yet wants more. We all know the 5 billion won't be nearly enough to build the wall. Where will this money be going? Where's the accountability? Where's the plan?

If this is how he runs his businesses, with no planning, no data, no analysis, no projections, no accountability....it's no wonder he's declared bankruptcy 4 times. I don't trust him at all to handle a project like this, even if it passed.

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Joaniepoanie

Trump supporters here treat libs the same way they say they are being treated.....personal attacks, insults, etc. This has been mentioned many times, yet they still play victim and fail to admit it is a two way street.

It's also impossible to have a discussion with posters who rant and tirade and make one post after another in a mad frenzy of sweeping, nonsensical statements. It's also impossible to have a discussion with posters who only use one-liners and memes to communicate.

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d_gw

How can you ever be a part of a reasonable discussion about Trump when you start the discussion declaring that Trump's words and actions don't count?

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dandyfopp

At some point in every thread on this topic or any topic, facts are introduced and roundly ignored in favor of feelings or interpretations. Alternative facts!

What they want to believe.

That is why discussion isn't possible. It isn't going to change, what will change eventually are the names.

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cyn427(zone 7, Northern VA)

Stan: "It is a very dangerous precedent for anyone to arbitrarily decide they aren't going to enact laws--especially for political advantage. This is what Democrats are now doing."

As was pointed out, a compromise was reached, Trump said he would sign it. Coulter and Hannity tied him to the whipping post for that, so he vetoed it. It had passed the Senate unanimously and also passed the House. Blaming the Democrats seems disengenuous to me.

i fail to see a crisis situation when the numbers do not back up that assessment. The hysteria evident in Trump's speeches is not supported by facts. We have seen facts and figures offered here on HT from multiple and reliable sources that show there is no crisis, but they are ignored or dismissed.

Now, that is not to say we do not need strong border security. However, making TSA and CBC employees work without pay is unacceptable. Taking land from American homeowners through eminent domain in order to build a wall/fence/whatever the current word is, is unacceptable. Using our military to build tent cities is unacceptable.

When those who support the wall can share scientifically collected data/evidence rather than anecdotal stories and statements, I will be happy to discuss.



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provogal

Why is he going to the border on Thursday? What does he think he can show?

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dublinbay z6 (KS)

Here's something more specific that could be discussed.

-------------

"Trump's border wall -- how much it will actually cost according to a statistician

The Trump administration wants to enforce border security with a combination of a physical wall and natural barriers that would protect the estimated 1,933 miles-long borderbetween the United States and Mexico. Many different cost estimates have been thrown around, from as little as $8 billion to as much as $70 billion, with anywhere from $150 million per year to $750 million per year in maintenance.

As a statistician, I want to take a look at how much the wall is actually going to cost. . . .

[. . .]

Construction

Size of the wall: 1,150 miles long; 40 feet high; 10 feet deep into the ground; 1 foot wide

Total volume of material: 11.2 million cubic yards

Materials: Approximately $8.7 billion in concrete (97 percent of the materials); approximately $3.6 billion in steel (3 percent of the materials)

Labor: Approximately $12.3 billion (given the labor costs on the original 654 miles of barriers we can assume a conservative 1:1 ratio of materials to labor)

Land acquisition: About 60 percent of the border is privately owned land. While the federal government has the power to take privately owned property for public purposes, it must provide “just compensation.” Based on previous purchases from the 2006-2009 wall construction, the cost at most would be $300,000 per mile acquired, or approximately $200 million altogether.

In total, the actual physical cost of the wall would be about $25 billion. That sounds like a ton of money. But it isn’t just one person paying for it – the entirety of the U.S. taxpayer base would collectively foot the bill.

To put that in perspective, we could give 50,000 small businesses $500,000 each to get their businesses up and running. That would be pretty incredible. . . .

Now, I’ve estimated the cost of the wall to be about $25 billion, but many of the estimates given by other sources include many other factors: how many more or fewer border agents are needed; reduction of “virtual” walls; on-going maintenance; economic costs to border towns; reductions in human trafficking and illegal immigration; reduction in drug trafficking; etc.

There are so many factors that “might increase” or “might decrease” that as a statistician, I can tell you it is empirically impossible to calculate all of the unintended consequences – good or bad – that the wall might cause. . . .

Here’s another misconception. According to a 2015 report by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, 95 percent of drugs enter the United States via container ships or other vessels. So in reality, a wall is going to do absolutely nothing to stop drug trafficking.

[. . .]

The real question the American public should be asking isn’t how much is the wall going to cost, but rather what is the best way to secure our borders and reduce illegal activity like human and drug trafficking, while at the same time promoting the American dream and helping those who are fleeing for their lives?"

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/trumps-border-wall-how-much-it-will-actually-cost-according-to-a-statistician

------------------------------

I find much of that sensible and defensible, but I wouldn't finally dismiss cost as unimportant as the writer does. One important issue would be whether or not we are getting our money's worth if we spend $25 billion on the border wall. And how do we determine that?

Kate

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foodonastump

I do not know of ONE PERSON that supports Trump that thinks for one minute that he meant, or that any of us meant, that we want or expect an actual contiguous, physical wall.

Let’s pretend that’s not a backpedal and entertain that thought. Has he presented an actual plan that defines the scope? Because “I” don’t know offhand know of anyone who is against placing appropriate barriers in strategic areas. If Trump isn’t hung up on THE wall then why isn’t he negotiating?


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Becca Reese

Take for instance the infamous 'WALL,' it seems evident to me that the
crisis over the invasion of our southern border and undocumented people
flooding in is a fiction.

  • Border Patrol agents stopped or apprehended 62, 456 undocumented immigrants that illegally crossed the southern border in November
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gyr_falcon(Sunset 23)

I've always found it incredulous that knowing Trump's style, that anyone would actually take his words literally--as far as a "wall" as vs. "steel slats."

Care to provide any plausible explanation for why San Diego is continuing to pay to protect a group of wall prototypes built to trump's specs (18-30' high, prevent tunneling 6' underground, etc.), if he just wanted a simple steel slat above ground fence all along?

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d_gw

becca, are we really currently at "crisis" levels? How does that 62k number (unsourced of course) compare to previous activity at the border? That is one of the issues.

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Becca Reese

tony jelly

One
item that is thrown into the mix is that walls work, I don't think this
is true although 'work; may mean different things to different people.
The point is, as Chase says, before we consider the efficacy of a wall
we need to analyse what the real problem is before moving towards such
an expensive 'fix.'

The metrics used are not esoteric in the least. The data are incontrovertible.

But I suspect that after Trump lays out the facts-as he's done and so many others have done in the past-that it will be met with accusations of lies and a litany of emotional retorts meant to paint Trump and the wall system supporters as racists.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" that any of us meant, that we want or expect an actual contiguous, physical wall. "

Time to demand a full plan of what is being proposed from one end to the other. This constant misunderstanding is ridiculous for a man who supposedly is a shrewd businessman. Laying out the plan is the first expectation in business. Not "I want a bunch of money and I'll let you know how I use it later."

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patriciae_gw(07)

I can agree with Stan that Trump never meant and does not mean to build an actual wall. Like Lock Her Up, by which he did not mean that Hilary Clinton should actually be locked up, it is hyperbole intended to rouse the crowd. We are simply accustomed to presidents and presidential candidates being more circumspect with their promises and claims. I recall vividly when he did one of his rallys after the election and the crowd started chanting lock her up he made a stab at saying no we don't need to do that now-meaning we don't need to chant nonsense- but they wanted it so he went with it. He was perfectly ready to let the whole wall thing go early on. For the most part the taunts by media and liberals is what boxed him into this corner. I myself cautioned people about that and said we need to let this go because it has real repercussions. Let people just forget about it. Well that didn't work. His ego is now tightly tied to this can. But here is the problem, if you give him an out it will only make him worse like giving in to a spoiled child or a begging cat. They will now expect treats at three in the afternoon and will start working on you at two. Is Donald Trump too old to be trained to act rationally? Can he learn to act like a stateman? One wonders.

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Becca Reese

The 62K number is the highest since Trump's been in office and it was superseded once while Obama was in office, by a few thousand.

Further, while illegal crossings used to be made primarily by young males from Mexico, we are now seeing an unprecedented number of family units and children.


Immigrant families attempted to sneak into the United States in October at a rate almost 40 percent higher than any previous month on record, The Washington Times reported over the weekend.

A total of 23,121 parents and children traveling as families were caught illegally crossing the border last month, which is also nearly 400 percent higher than the figure recorded just a year ago.

When families, unaccompanied children and single adults are included in the figures, the Border Patrol caught nearly 51,000 illegal immigrants in November, the highest since the illegal immigration surge in 2014.

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d_gw

Sources please.

Source added after I posted. Washington Times? okay.

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cyn427(zone 7, Northern VA)

Until you put it in terms of percentages, Becca. That 62,000 figure is not even close to 1% of our population. How is that a crisis?

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maifleur01

While some are focusing on the wall I am focusing on the method/s that he is using to get the wall. He has tried bullying Congress, shutting down the federal government and so far no one has seen much actual use of the wall along with the waste of revenue that is much shorter now because of the tax cut. Now he wants to set aside the laws of this country for the wall. I wondered since last year if there was another reason behind his insistence for the wall. Partially seems to be would Congress cave. Now that Congress is not caving is he attempting to see how far he can go in setting aside various laws. I am wondering what law or laws does he want to set aside and what the final outcome will be. His actions seem to be similar to some that once they have what they wanted then they push of bigger things.

It is not the wall that I think people should be focusing on but what is the reason that laws are being set aside.

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d_gw

Becca, didn’t you once post that your career was in “evidence-based practice”? Would you consider out of context and unsourced numerical proclamations to be acceptable work in your field?

Oh wait, never mind. That post was from the galloping horse person.

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Joaniepoanie
  • Dandyfopp

    At some point in every thread on this topic or any topic, facts are introduced and roundly ignored in favor of feelings or interpretations. Alternative facts!

    What they want to believe.

    That is why discussion isn't possible. It isn't going to change, what will change eventually are the names.

    -------

    Bingo....when you have one segment that gets their "news" from just a few sources that only spout what they want to hear, an informed discussion is impossible.

    And does anyone believe Trump supporters when they now say well...Trump really didn't mean a 2,000 wall, he didn't really mean a concrete wall, etc...Trump had to walk back his campaign rhetoric and supporters are going along, of course.

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Zeus

Here are FACTs that discuss why a wall is harmful, wasteful, and ineffective. Cato https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work

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Joaniepoanie

Washington Times....haha!

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alexrander

We have a moat, called the Rio Grande river and we have a 'no mans land' known as the desert. Drug runners and cartel people have other means of getting in.

If you want to limit poor people coming in, you limit jobs. But we don't. I know so many Trump supporters who knowingly hire immigrants without papers. They fudge things. So the problem is usually wealthy Republicans. At least on that score. If you perceive it as a problem.


Trump probably did have a dream of getting hold of billions of taxpayers' money and getting a cut for a big project like a wall. If he could convince Americans to pay for casinos he would have the same corrupt thoughts.

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blfenton

Here are stats from the Border Crossing website which is no longer being maintained because of no funding. There was an increase in November because of an increase in the number of family units coming through. Why this is happening I don;t know and I don;t know if they are being counted differently

ETA = I don't know how many families make up that 62.000 nor does it say how many are from Mexico and how many from Central America. That's the thing about stats - you have to delve into them to find out how they were produced and unfortunately many on this forum don't do that. I don't have the time to do that right now.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

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tony jelly

maifleur: thank you for addressing my question. If I know that the 'crisis' is a fiction so does Trump. I know there is an attempt to sneak a bill criminalising BDS through while everyone is squirrel watching, but there is also the things Nancy mentions above. It is horrendous to think that he would shutdown the governmwnt just to prove he can or to create a distraction.

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chase_gw

The family crossings , which are spiking in numbers, are coming in through porous of entry. They are asylum seekers and a wall doesn't address that problem.

Biggest problems are amnesty seekers and overstayed visas. The wall does nothing to address that....nada

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alexrander

There is the restaurant/food industry, there is the crop harvesting industry, there is the construction/manual labor industry, there is the hotel industry, there is the meat packing industry, there is a nanny industry, there is still a textile industry. All hire undocumented workers. Most of the business owners are Republican.

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mrskjun(9)

So, Trump has been the greatest president maybe ever. No wonder the left has lost their minds. Name one other president who has accomplished all that he has in their first two years of office.

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jn3344

Sartre wrote about discussing anti-Semitism with an anti-Semite, and I think this applies to most of these"discussions" on HT as well:


"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."


Essentially the Trumps and their ilk know they are lying to your face and watch as you powerlessly counter with facts and their reaction is a kind of bemused sadism. The power of putting you in your place by removing the effectiveness of your reasoned reply is what they enjoy. Nothing is more essential to who we are than what we know, and they cut at that at the very essence.


Block and move on.


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dandyfopp

This needs to be posted in every thread.

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chase_gw

Mrs , your view of accomplishments is not aligned when the majority of Americans or the world.





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macimom

Stan says

"I think I can understand what trump means when he says things..."

Well then you are one up on trump as I don't think he has any idea of what he is saying at any given time. He pivots and derails so often.

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sunflower_petal(5a)

" So, Trump has been the greatest president maybe ever."



Only in his own mind.

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patriciae_gw(07)

The people in the UN burst out laughing when Trump made the same claim that MrsK made.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

As I understand the issue (please correct me if I'm mistaken) the claim is that the budget must contain monies for a border wall due to a national emergency -- asylum seekers and refugees at the border.

How does a budget item for construction that will begin in a year or two solve the problem of an immediate national emergency? This is nonsensical.

If there were indeed a true national emergency, an immediate government response would be needed -- personnel, equipment, supplies. None of this has been requested, nor is being requested.

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Ziemia(6a)

BR: Border Patrol agents stopped or apprehended 62, 456 undocumented immigrants that illegally crossed the southern border in November

Our Government: 51,856 were apprehended in November.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

We'd need to come to agreement on the facts. They are not yet "incontrovertible" to everyone.

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Ziemia(6a)

The Sartre quote is valuable reading.

(TY jn3344)

As are the results of the 2018 election.

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Maddie AtHome

One can only reason with reasonable people -- Sartre was right (thanks JN3344!). Sound advice : Ignore and move on.

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kaych

I admit that I haven't read this entire thread, but I have read all the comments from the OP. What's clear is that he/she starts out the thread by saying:

"There is very little being discussed on HT at the moment, and a lot of the time there are only statements. Often the item posted has come up before and refuted so I can only assue that this means only that the forum is being used as a political platform, with no intention of stimulating a discussion"

Then immediately turns to his/her own political idea, & continues with every comment he made after! That's a shame because there could have been a chance to have a reasonable discussion & I do agree mostly with his opening statement!

ETA: A true bait & switch thread if there ever was one!

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blfenton

@Ziema - I'm not sure what you're asking about the figures but if you add the US Border Patrol border apprehensions (51,856) and the Office of Field Operations inadmissibles (10,600) you get the 62,456.

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blfenton

So, Trump has been the greatest president maybe ever. No wonder the left has lost their minds. Name one other president who has accomplished all that he has in their first two years of office.

I just finished my lunch. Way to early for my bedtime fairytale.

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tony jelly

I do believe you insulted me there Kaych, as you obviously misenterpreted my OP then chose to denigrate my motives.

There are a number of things I would like to discuss to arrive at some kind of understanding, not necessarily answers. for example you seem to be a Trump supporter and I would like to know why, as I genuinely do not understand it. When this question is asked here we are assailed with 'memes' rather than anything that might explain it in a sensible fashion.

I am nit trying to trap you are anyone into saying something you don't believe but what is it that would enable me to see the situation as you do? No trick


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purrmich_7_

Perfect jn3344. never more true than now.

To stay on topic one has to use strategies that they'd never use IRL. In fact, who would attempt to have a conversation with a poster who is yelling or using obfuscation/mansplaining.

Over the past week the right have ratcheted up everything about the wall and we all know how those op's are written.

It's a stressful time for some.

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cait1

OP:

If I am right there must be another reason why Trump is prepared to go to the extraordinary lengths he has embarked on.

Sorry if I missed it, but you seems to want a discussion on why we think Trump wants a wall and yet I didn't read where you stated your reasons why he wants one. I did read where you wrote this, though:

One item that is thrown into the mix is that walls work, I don't think this is true although 'work; may mean different things to different people.

If walls don't work, why are there barricades (short walls) at each end of the street BO's house is on and security guards at each end? Would you prefer barricades and armed security all along the border with the order to shoot to kill anyone who tries to break through them?

It's obvious that there can't be a continuous wall. Walls placed along certain areas along the border don't bother me. Drones and human security along other areas along the border don't bother me. What bothers me is a political party encouraging foreigners who care nothing about America principles/law to break our laws because that party's main aim is to have a new, poorly educated/low IQ voter base that leans heavily toward government dependence (welfare/OPM), not to mention swelling those welfare programs to collapse the system.

Now let's see how your dream world unfolds - either discussions will ensue regarding my comment or rants filled with personal attacks.

I lean more towards the rants. : )

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Ziemia(6a)

@blfleton - I see about maybe 5,000 inadmissibles - not 10k. Though I am not yet agreed these belong together.

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cattyles8675309

I don't think discussion is possible on HT, at all, anymore. Trolls and flamers are not only tolerated, they are welcomed.

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blfenton

@Ziemia - I question that point as well.

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catticusmockingbird

Until Trump is history you can pretty much kiss any chance of reasonable discussion goodbye.

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chase_gw

And someone(s) deletes and report posts to the point threads make no sense. What a silly thing to do. It just shows their inability to embrace different view points. It is a sign of what Trump is all about........lying and fabricating and manipulating by supressing......a sign of weakness

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mayflowers

I realized yesterday with the disappearing threads that they are like Scientologists who try to shut down any criticism of the organization. Lying about the cult of trump--check, fabricating--check, suppressing--check.

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Elly

"Until Trump is history you can pretty much kiss any chance of reasonable discussion goodbye."

I wouldn't count of tRumpers being capable of reasonable discussion even after we are rid of him. They will spend the rest of their lives bemoaning the loss of their hero.

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margievank


cattyles

I don't think discussion is possible on HT, at all, anymore. Trolls and flamers are not only tolerated, they are welcomed.

cattyles- just who are you talking about? Who on this forum is a troll and a flamer? Say it and stand by it, write Houzz, or stop with the constant insults! It seems anyone who disagrees with left is deemed a troll. Now a flamer. Get over it!

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Ziemia(6a)

Discussion is possible - just have to skip over intervening comments - very doable. (And some here 'frustrated' by Trump are real conservatives.)

========

Found this surprising:

Some background:

Nine congressional representatives serve the districts that line the 2,000-mile southern border. They are men, women, freshman politicians and Washington veterans. The Democrats among them span liberal ideologies, while one of them is a Republican.

But they all have one thing in common: each is against President Donald Trump's border wall.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trumps-border-wall-every-congressperson-along-southern-border-opposes-border-wall-funding-2019-1-8/

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Elly

"Who on this forum is a troll and a flamer?"

To borrow one of the troll/flamers favorite comebacks, lololololololol

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Kathy

Rep. Will Hurd, a Texas Republican who represents more of the southern border than any other member of Congress, was one of a handful of Republicans to side with Democrats last week on the funding bill.

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margievank

Elly

"Who on this forum is a troll and a flamer?"

To borrow one of the troll/flamers favorite comebacks, lololololololol


Ziemia(6a)

Discussion is possible - just have to skip over intervening comments - very doable.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

I wouldn't count of tRumpers being capable of reasonable discussion even after we are rid of him. They will spend the rest of their lives bemoaning the loss of their hero.

---------------------

Elly, they will go away. I have been around a long time they always go away. They are a small group. Just SOB nothing more than little annoyance with little life happiness. tRump made promises to the sad ones.

During Bush they were jumping for joy at the end the market crashed, banks were begging for bail outs, auto industry were going bankrupt, and people were losing their home. Trust me they will leave.

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margievank


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Stan Areted

LOL, sorry I only play with people that play fair--need to screen playmates!


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jillinnj

The problem, Tony, is it is impossible to have discussions with people that do not deal in reality. When they spew lies, refuse to educate themselves, refuse to read any source other than extreme right wing ones, a discussion is impossible.

About the wall and Trump -

Trump is so far out of his element. He has never had to come up with a detailed plan. He just goes with his gut and the results are multiple bankruptcies and every business he touches turning to carp.

Of course, if he did do the work (or had people do the work) of coming up with an actual plan for what he wants, how much it would cost and what the benefit would be, and did so with actual facts and not complete lies, his "plan" would completely fall apart. So, he can't. Even if he wanted to. Which he doesn't. Because he's not smart enough to realize he should. And if he were smart enough to realize he should, he'd find out he can't.

So, here we are. He made a stupid promise that he only made because when he said it, they cheered. So he repeated it. Again and again. He tried to get out of it by agreeing to sign what Congress proposed. Then he was mocked. And since it's all about his ego, he recanted.

A crisis of his own making.

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tony jelly

So true His speech last night was virtually fact-free, all of the lies easily refuted, and brilliant rebuttals from Democrats, but this does not move his supporters one inch. Why?

There is no attempt to discuss any of this, instead, there is what about Obama/Hilary and memes and just digging heels in. Can anyone explain why this willful ignorance?

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Maddie AtHome

Birds of a feather.

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Maddie AtHome

The problem, Tony, is it is impossible to have discussions with people
that do not deal in reality. When they spew lies, refuse to educate
themselves, refuse to read any source other than extreme right wing
ones, a discussion is impossible.

The lies are spread on purpose (Exodus 20:16 clearly applies to other people only).

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Rina

It's rather sad but I have come to the conclusion that two-sided political discussion on HT is impossible. That's why, although I'm still reading threads for what they can teach me, I'm not saying much any more. Haven't taken an oath or anything, but I'm the person at the dinner table who stays shtum until she has something to say, usually.

I know I have a bias, but really, for instance, is "ignorance is subjective" something one can even think about for a second? I don't want to attack you in particular, Margie, but it's just the latest example of statements that don't advance thought one bit. Some of your fellow Trumpists do far worse on that score; at least I think you have a playful, imp-like soul that shows in your comments. You are provocative sometimes. Others, eh, not so much. But thread after thread, topic after topic, nothing to debate. Nothing.

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Rina

No, Margie, your comment made me slump, not think. I just used the occasion to state my current attitude to HT. I think the interaction you get is based on your personality, not on considered political statements. That's not your style. You're more of a Trump cheerleader, I think. Flag this if you think that's rudely personal; I don't mean it to be. A real comment on your comment would take issue with it or explore its ramifications or something, for Pete's sake. But I can't. Nothing to explore.

What I loved in this thread was the quotation from Sartre, a man for whom I have mixed feelings. But when he was brilliant, my heavens was he brilliant.

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Embothrium(Sunset Climate Zone 5, USDA Hardiness Zone 8)

To those who are feeling beaten down or have become weary of the back and forth:

All that is ever necessary is to SOB and say nothing in direct response to statements you think are rubbish - claims posted here fall or stand on their own merit or lack of it, because there is a real world out there consisting of true facts. Nothing is going to change or be lost because something babbled or shrieked here was not rebutted.

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jillinnj

The lies are spread on purpose

Yes, by some. Most of the pundits know it's lies. Most politicians know it's lies. Some of their supporters know it's lies. But, some do not have the capacity to figure that out. Some really do believe it.

I'm not sure which is worse. Intentionally lying to deceive is certainly awful. But it's that group that truly believes, that actually doesn't have the capacity to know their being lied to, that got us into this mess we're in.

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jillinnj

The point is not to babble more. The point is to ignore the babbling.

Intentionally missing the point, or truly not understanding? I have my guess.

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Kathy

Trump babbling on TV now. The consumate babbler.

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sheesh(5b)

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but yesterday we watched a movie from 1949 (not a typo, 1949) dealing with this exact border situation. We saw it yesterday morning on TCM (I think).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Incident 

Very, very interesting.


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Rina

Margie, wanting to explain my relative absence from HT has been on my mind since yesterday. This is really the first time I had a chance to do it. That's all. Not aiming at you, in particular.

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Rina

PS I was a journalist yesterday. Some yesterdays ago.

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roxsol

Very, very interesting.

Some of the film's most memorable scenes include the death of an American by a mechanized harrow and a climactic shootout in a quicksand swamp.“

Sheesh, I am going to look for it. My husband loves movies involving trains and/or farm implements :) He’ll give me a rundown on the accuracy. I’ll just enjoy the story.

ETA I don’t mean I’ll enjoy the death of an American, I’ll just enjoy the overall story, or at least find it interesting.

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purrmich_7_

Rina, while I totally get why you choose not to post here - it's a loss for the forum and myself, personally.

I enjoy your thoughtful and no BS posts. You call it as you see it.

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Ziemia(6a)

The value of discussion here is in 2nd place to the value in the content of some comments. I have learned so much from a lot here. And often a perspective is stated so much better than the best I can put together.

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kaych

Perfectly said!

"Never believe that anti-Trumpers are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Trumpers have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."

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tony jelly

I read that as 'Trumpers,' and it makes sense, as shown here it doesn't, and you only have to look at the absurdity of the posts from Trumpers here that don't even bother to discuss and are only frivolous remarks.

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purrmich_7_

Self-knowledge is a valuable thing, some never get it.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

FWIW, I decline to engage on a personal level with someone who is trying to pick a fight. I think some here relish that, but it's not what I'm here for.

That's why I prefer to address my comments to the forum as a whole.

I got the fighting/bickering out of my system years ago, on the Sustaining Our Environment and Soil & Compost Conversations forums.

Perhaps this was already said here? Mr. Trump is making a great show of battling with Congressional Democrats over 'his wall' now, yet when he had a GOP majority he couldn't get it. What sense does it make to expect Democrats to give in? And what else is happening that we're all being distracted from?

The damage to our economy and people's lives stemming from the shutdown is starting to manifest. In fact this guy is doing a lot of damage to our nation's economy on many fronts, but since the effects aren't too apparent yet, I think denial may be easy for some people. Ignorance is bliss indeed.

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cattyles8675309

Soil & Compost is tough. Or it was. I haven’t read it in years.

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purrmich_7_

I read, I think, that McConnell said that a shutdown 'isn't the end of the world' and that government is never really shut down.

So, what about those paychecks? If they're so inconsequential why doesn't McConnell et al skip their paycheck ...

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dandyfopp

Yes, no income is inconsequential.

See you in 2020 Mitch.

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marquest(PA zone 6)

carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b, I went there once when I first started posting on GW back in the Spike days, I back out real quick. I compost but could not get how people find that discourse enjoyable, It is not a conversation, discussion, or sparing.

Tony IMO the reason discussion not a discussion it is a open forum for all ages. People perform up to what they can do. There are times you will see what our children did when they were around grown ups.


They cannot start a topic but they can only perform up to their present appropriate age intelligence. They pull your arm, show you the latest drawing (meme) they made. Their vocabulary is limited so there are very few words. They interrupt and cry beg... pay me me me attention. As a parent you put them at the kiddy table and give them something to play with it helps if you are not the toy. If you are not the toy discussion can be a discussion.

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Rina

Margie, all I can do is tell the truth. I can't make you believe it.


I'll still be around here and there, Purrmich. Just not so much. Thank you for the compliment.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Just to be clear, I was referring to the off topic conversations side of that forum, not the main forum. Almost all of those conversation pits went away when houzz took over. There's only one left that I know of: Home Decorating Conversations.

And FWIW, a number of the folks from SC&M left Gardenweb and formed their own board which still continues today.

Apologies for the sidetrack - just wanted to clarify.

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tony jelly

It seems that my attempt at a discussion this morning has been zapped already, it is quite disheartening really.

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d_gw

tony, I wondered what happened to your post. I though it was interesting. It will come back and eventually the thread police will find another target to harass. Don't give up!

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tony jelly

Thanks, I agree with what you wrote over there, although I think we need to be careful that we don't meet like with like and try to turn the passion you speak of into reason so that we can do what is right for everybody.

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Stan Areted


sunflower_petal(5a)

" Don't fool yourself, they do go to emergency rooms and they get treatment and many do not pay a dime. "

Do you know that's because of the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act passed in 1986? They are not going there for strep throat and getting free care.

I know for a FACT that is not correct, and that I am right.

I did not say every visit was for strep throat.

It's not just illegals, it's people that won't pony up $50 for a quick care visit and crowd the emergency rooms with a posse of family and friends taking up seats that truly sick people need, slurping icees, trying to get some type of drugs, it's families of illegal immigrants that speak no English with sick children and we pay for their care, it's people that don't have or don't want to spend their money on health care but on other things, then show up at the ER for a plethora of NON EMERGENCY complaints.


Emergenecy room visits have in fact been decreased due to the rather rapid new sector of quick care clinics the last ten years or so--they are ususally used by people that have either health insurance or the means to pay; prior to that it was pretty much the emergency room or waiting to get an appointment to see a doctor.


Illegal immigrants, people with no health care, or people that want drugs or free care go to the emergency room. Now we have older illegal immigrants with more health issues.

For those of you that contend that no way no how do illegal immigants get free health care, here is just a tiny portion (TEN MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR) of what Texas pays for illegal immigrants:

"A 2014 report published by the journal of the Texas Medical Association found that undocumented immigrants with kidney disease face considerable barriers to care. By the time they do get help, they need dialysis, costing Texas taxpayers as much as $10 million a year." CNN Jan 2017


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sheesh(5b)

I'm glad they get free health care. I wish we all did. Small.price to pay to help keep us all healthy.

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Stan Areted

Good God don't you know nothing is free?

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sunflower_petal(5a)

"By the time they do get help, they need dialysis, costing Texas taxpayers as much as $10 million a year "

That sounds like it falls under the 1986 act.

" It's not just illegals, it's people that won't pony up $50 for a quick care visit and crowd the emergency rooms with a posse of family and friends taking up seats that truly sick people need, slurping icees, trying to get some type of drugs, it's families of illegal immigrants that speak no English with sick children and we pay for their care, it's people that don't have or don't want to spend their money on health care but on other things, then show up at the ER for a plethora of NON EMERGENCY complaints."

Look, if hospitals are providing more care than required by the 1986 act, that's on them.

And by the way, I have been to 'quick care' 4 times in the last 3 months. None of it was $50. It was a minimum of $300 per visit (not including the xrays for the broken bone), knocked down to $120 by insurance.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Does someone have an alert set to notify them when their name is dropped?

And FWIW, recall that Emily has stated more than once that some of the people flagging and disappearing comments are not even participating in these discussions.

Never even saw the comment from tony jelly, hope it will be returned ASAP.

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tony jelly

obviously, it's just the latest example of statements that don't advance thought one bit

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Kathy

The $50.00 emergency room visit went away in the States that didn’t expand Medicaid So did the hospitals that were being subsidized by the Federal Government.

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purrmich_7_

Someone spends a bunch of time In ER.

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Stan Areted

Someone spends a bunch of time In ER.

Someone has to with elderly family members that wind up at the ER a lot the last few years of their lives.

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Stan Areted

Some has to with children with diseases that sometimes require being rushed to the emergency room.


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Stan Areted

Someone transposes letters when typing quickly but knows how to spell words.

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Kathy

Doctors will not take uninsured patients without insurance which leaves the emergency room as the only option. ACA fixed that with Medicaid expansion. We pay one way or the other. I’d rather diseases get treated early on in a progressive manner. It is cheaper and more humane.

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Stan Areted

And by the way, I have been to 'quick care' 4 times in the last 3 months. None of it was $50. It was a minimum of $300 per visit (not including the xrays for the broken bone), knocked down to $120 by insurance.

You must have bigger health problems than I do.

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Stan Areted

I paid $50 for the visit just a week ago today, CASH, no insurance payment.

The x rays will be more--my foot wasn't broken this time, sorry you had a break.

BTW, I just made my first reduced premium on my health insurance.

Went down $92 and some change. I didn't change anything, my policy did not change. Since I didn't get my $2500 from Obama and it actually went up, I'll thank Trump but do not know why it was reduced.

My point was and is, people KNOW they WILL get seen by a doctor and treatment at the ER and they know they won't pay.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

The depth of ignorance on display here is kind of stunning.

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Kathy

As you said nothing is free. Emergency room costs can bankrupt a person. They will treat an emergency but you will get a bill, even if you have no insurance. You can be sued by the hospital and have wages garnished or declare bankruptcy. If you own anything, a car a house, they will take it. The bill could be 20,000 or more but you will pay and if you need surgery it can be devastating.

avg costs in Mi for surgical procedures.


https://www.mlive.com/expo/news/g66l-2019/01/25050b17c92516/hospital-price-lists-revealed.html?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=mlivedotcom_sf


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tony jelly

Is deleting a thread a personal attack?

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Kathy

Concussions

If you need to make a trip to the hospital for symptoms of a concussion, this is the base rate for the charges associated with treatment:

McLaren Bay Region, Bay City: $10,646

Covenant HealthCare, Saginaw: $13,473

McLaren Flint: $15,840

Spectrum Health Butterworth, Grand Rapids: $19,923

Michigan Medicine, Ann Arbor: $22,977

Henry Ford Allegiance, Jackson: $24,431

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d_gw

Tony, I think some people didn't like their results from your quiz :) The thread will come back in a few hours. Intelligence is definitely a Hot Topic.

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d_gw

Tony, you can email Houzz about your vanishing threads. You'll probably get a canned response but it will bring it to their attention.

Houzz support


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Stan Areted


margievank

My point was and is, people KNOW they WILL get seen by a doctor and treatment at the ER and they know they won't pay.


Wait Stan, what do you mean they won't pay? I have never been to ER. ER is free? Why is there a co-pay on my insurance for emergency visit?

It IS if you don't have insurance and don't pay for it yourself.

But everyone gets care, no matter how urgent or benign.

And many don't pay a dime.



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Kathy

Anyone who is against the ACA should stop complaining of uninsured people in the ER. That was one of the benefits. They could go to a Dr office instead of ER. You can choose one of the more boutique high cost Quick care centers.

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katrina_ellen

"When is a discussion not a discussion"

Oh come on now, get real. Its whenever my beliefs don't agree with yours. LOL.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b(zone 9/10)

Not only that, Kathy, but the hospitals get paid for their services too, rather than having to eat those costs, ultimately lowering the prices charged to those patients who are able to pay.

And I find it bewildering that some people do not appear to grasp that it benefits our entire population when everybody is healthier. Are they unaware of communicable diseases, and how they are spread?

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macimom

Don't flag their remarks. Let them stand so that the light and sun can shine on them and sanitize. Let everyone see them for what they are.

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Stan Areted

Diabetes, kidney disease and heart disease aren't exactly communicable.

They're expensive diseases and in large part, preventable--at least at any early age.

IF people make responsible decisions.

The best way for them to do that is to be responsible for the costs if they don't make responsible decisions for their health.

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kaych


macimom

Don't flag their remarks. Let them stand so that the light and sun can shine on them and sanitize. Let everyone see them for what they are.


Hmmm... very interesting wording coming at this very time. Didn't I just read that somewhere else?


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macimom

As do yours Margie and that is why they need to remain.

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macimom

I don't know, did you kaych?

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sheesh(5b)

I agree that all posts should remain in a thread.

I also agree that we should ignore all posts that are irrelevant to the thread. We should simply ignore and write around the nonsense to continue the relevant discussion.

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