tRump "Sucker" Doctrine not OK with Bolton/Israel

heri_cles

tRump rants and whines about the US being suckers for foreign countries by stationing troops overseas for their protection.

Well now after after Bolton visited Israel (and probably spoke with Netenyahu) tRump's precipitous decision to withdraw US troops from Syria is now in question.Bolton not only wants troops to stay in Syria but wants them stationed in Southern Syria. I guess being a sucker for Israel is an exception to the tRump Sucker Doctrine.


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sunflower_petal(5a)

I saw that last night. Bolton has basically said that Trump's Syria announcement wasn't right at all.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

Bolton bolting?

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Ziemia(6a)

I do wonder why various Trump supporters aren't upset with Bolton clearly contradicting Trump.

Does Trump know? Has it been mentioned on morning Fox?

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heri_cles

We may be in serious danger of getting embroiled in war if Bolton is allowed to determine foreign policy and set troop deployments.

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vgkg Z-7 Va(Z-7)

trump & bolton think each other is the phucking moron, they're both right.

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MissMyGardens

Bolton won't go anywhere as long as he can influence policy in direction he espouses. Whiplash....the leader of the free world tweets major policy change and withdrawal of troops without alerting anyone before tweet, doubles down on "we're outta here" during one of his meandering rants and....

SecDef resigns, senators rail, national security advisers are WTH, Israel wants buffer between itself and Syrian chaos about to explode and voila....we're staying, the withdrawal is anything but immediate and we can hope our government will consult with allies on the ground with us and at least our own military leaders (those left who can actually make "big" decisions.

Glad someone saw sense in making withdrawal orderly, let our allies on the ground know (you know..Brits, French, etc.) so they can arrange coverage of assets like we'd be shipping home.

It's not a question of should we or shouldn't we be there but how we leave if that's what national security working group decides we should do.

Now do we believe Erdogan when he says he won't attack Kurds when we leave? I don't any further than leaving handful of US troops as observers manning outposts. US envoys have been in Turkey for weeks reviewing their "information" and so-called intelligence on the Turkish exile/sheik/imam, Fethullah Gülen, who was granted US asylum in 1990s and has been living in Pennsylvania all that time. Unfortunately for Fethullah Gülen he's the one Michael Flynn was lobbying to have extradited to Turkey for purported instigation and/or involvement in 2016 Turkish coup attempt.,,,and being paid handsomely for service as indictment states.

The US government has been reviewing Erdogan's "proof" for years and all of a sudden he has something new and earth shattering to show the US government or is it the set of new "Trump" eyes he's hoping will make a difference? Erdogan has been relentless in insisting on extradition of Fethullah Gulen, former ally of Erdogan, until their last "fall out".

No idea if or what Gulen and/or his followers did or did not do in relation to 2016 coup attempt and other things Erdogan accuses him of doing but I sure hope he's not traded for not to be believed assurance Turks will not advance with their tanks on Kurds who are only reliable group in entire Syrian mess and in Iraq.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/fethullah-gulens-extradition-would-signal-a-human-sacrifice-based-foreign-policy

"Last month, it came out that the White
House had considered extradition as a means to buy cooperation
from Turkey in easing pressure on Saudi Arabia, a close U.S. ally,
following the murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi in the Saudi
consulate in Istanbul.

The Trump administration has signaled its willingness to
re-open the investigation, not because of new evidence but because of
the geopolitical aim of improving its relationship with Erdogan’s
government."

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tony jelly

So did we go into Syria in the first place to protect Israel?

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MissMyGardens

Tony, whatever America does in the Near and Middle East is done in consultation with Israel as there's frequently a chance it will create some fallout in their local neighborhood. Syria is right next to Israel and I have the feeling Israel didn't want a change from the status quo of Assad reigning Syria with an iron fist which for Israel was buffer from what's beyond for Israel. Syria could lob things from Golan Heights occasionally but they knew response was certain with nothing but irritation on Israel's part. Now that a hornet's nest was stirred up on their border I figure they're entitled to a little buffer from the deadly chaos we helped create and Assad still in power.

Consultation with Israel for geopolitical security reasons is fine. I don't like us turning away from or, worse, encouraging the complete destruction and abuse of entire Palestinian people and lands. That may not be popular with some but staunchly supporting state of Israel doesn't mean I can't see the oppression that goes on. Intractable.

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petalique

What do presidents Coulter and Hanninny say?

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tony jelly

Did you know that under cover of the shut down there is a bill to outlaw BDS on the table? That is part way to making any criticism of Israel illegal.

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Ziemia(6a)

More info please on that anti-BDS bill

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

PNAC had proposed Syria was the next country to destabilize and institute regime change after the "liberation" of Iraq.

BDS has attracted strong criticism for years.

.

Current members of Trump's America First clan had no qualms about having a foreign leader come to address Congress and try to dictate our Iran policy during the Obama administration.

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Maddie AtHome

How many congress critters hold dual US American-Israeli citizenship again?

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MissMyGardens

Just think how many things most of us don't know anything about little things slipped into spending bills. If someone opposes these hidden things they get accused of being against ... name any particular group/movement/voting bloc. It's infuriating because citizens can't go through every esoterically written bill that passes into law.

I find the various statements about BDS movement, explanations, claims and implications rather extraordinary but then I'm not all or nothing in something like this. Seems like a lot of crossed issues pushing and opposing BDS like everything else involving Israel's right to exist and rights of Palestinian's to have decent life on whatever land Israel hasn't appropriated.

"The Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement (also known as BDS) is a global campaign promoting various forms of boycott against Israel until it meets what the campaign describes as "[Israel's] obligations under international law",[1] defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties".[1] The campaign is organized and coordinated by the Palestinian BDS National Committee.[2]'and Palestinian people."

Found a few efforts to insert something into current spending bills Congress is currently not acting upon. I don't quite get all the motivations by individual members supporting different aspects of BDS or other financial/business relations between US companies, Israel & other countries declared "antiSemitic" by BDS or Israeli definintion which would include hell of a lot.

*Wouldn't anything proposed in last Congressional session have to be reintroduced in current session or are some things exempted if they're part of larger spending bill? Not clear on what survives session to session and what has to start procedural rules over again. Maybe spending bills can carry over but stand alone policy bills have to begin again.

Senator said attempting to put anti-BDS rider in US spending bill

Maryland’s Ben Cardin reportedly using lame duck session to squeeze controversial measure into bill meant to avert shutdown
By Eric Cortellessa
5 December 2018, 7:27 pm

Doesn't seem like Cardin, et. al. bill would survive into current session but I could be wrong or they can just reintroduce as amendment to funding bill now in play. Not sue if this month's Dem. changes in House Rules Committee would effect situation.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/senator-said-attempting-to-put-anti-bds-rider-in-us-spending-bill/

Senators intent on riders clarifying anti-Semitism, BDS in educational arena

Sen.
Tim Scott (R-S.C.) is looking to insert into the upcoming must-pass
spending legislation this month his proposed measure that would require
the Department of Education to adopt the State Department’s definition
of anti-Semitism in evaluating incidents on college campuses and at
other educational institutions.

By Jackson Richman

https://www.jns.org/senators-intent-on-legislation-denouncing-anti-semitism-bds-in-educational-arena/


Haaretz:

Barring Entry to BDS Supporters Does Israel More Harm Than Good, Top Think Tank Finds

INSS researchers say the amendment to the Entry into Israel Law
'falls short of aiding the struggle against the delegitimization of
Israel, and arguably might even intensify it' Noa Landau Nov 22, 2018

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MissMyGardens

nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10 "PNAC had proposed Syria was the next country to destabilize and institute regime change after the "liberation" of Iraq."

A few of the original members have changed their tune in light of Trump ascendance but you'd think after getting fleeced so badly by Chalabi who now resides in Iran and was his goal all along they all would have learned a lesson.

PNAC targets have been North Korea, Iraq and Iran. We screwed up Iraq and if PNAC members had their way we'd be trying to crush Iran militarily. Iran is a totally different class than either North Korea or Iraq but the current "free the repressed Iranian people" trend is very disturbing to me. Work with all Iranian factions and maybe, just maybe over time a mutually beneficial outcome can be achieved. A military solution does not exist there no matter what Bolton believes.

If organizations in business or academia internally decide to pariticipate in BDS movement that's their prerogative but I'm not in favor of US legislation imposing it on American citizens and/or businesses.

An old friend who survived Birkenau and his wife who ended up in Soviet camp for the duration of WWII both said their relatives who survived and emigrated to Israel because there was nothing left for them in Europe had businesses in Israel where Jews and Palestinians worked side by side and both profited in every way from their joint efforts. That may still exist in some places but the enmity is driven so hard.

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nancy_in_venice_ca Sunset 24 z10

Some members of PNAC regrouped after the Iraq debacle and founded a new group -- forgot the name and I'm too lazy to do a search -- with Russia as the resurrected boogeyman. These neocons are currently opposing Trump's close ties to Russia.


Surely there's a foreign policy that can be crafted other than knee-jerk opposition to Russia or wholehearted acceptance.

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MissMyGardens

Maddie AtHome "How many congress critters hold dual US American-Israeli citizenship again?"

Have not idea about number but I suspect there are some...a relatively very small number.

That is a fraught question in the US as there are so many conspiracy theories floating around regarding "international Jewish banking control" which is entwined with blatantly antisemitic nationalist groups in America. One such site claims the number of Federal legislators in DC is 89% which is an ugly agenda driven absurdity given reality of variety of heritages in America and it's government representatives.

The "right of return" to Israel for Jews is an historical idea but became a necessity after WWII when overwhelming majority had lost everything and even had they wanted to return to their countries of origin there were not welcome and their land, businesses and assets had been confiscated by both governments and their "neighbors". Some heroic measures by neighbors where Jews were driven out but not enough to reestablish a safe community.

Even the "right of return" is anathema to some but when you consider Jews had nowhere to go as Europe just wanted them gone with bigotry and few resources left after WWII and Western countries weren't all that welcoming I personally have no doubt the creation of the State of Israel was a necessity. That belief for others has morphed beyond what I accept as "fair" to Palestinians but my Jewish friends tell me to let it go because "it will never be solved" which is dispiriting to me.

There are Congress people who hold dual nationality and/or passports from more than one country depending on other country's laws for claiming bloodline rights. That includes Ireland and Italy that I now of but isn't simple or easy to obtain.

There is very great distinction between the law of Right to Return and proactively going through formal process of applying for actual citizenship in another country so one could attain dual citizenship.

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Maddie AtHome

Whoa. That wasn't why I was asking this question--far be it from me.

I have a problem with dual citizenship in general, one cannot truly be loyal to two, or even more countries in my opinion.

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dockside_gw

A NYT reprint in the Seattle Times today says, "Bolton, making a visit to Israel, said that U.S. forces would remain in Syria until the last remnants of the Islamic State group were defeated..."


Wait a minute. I thought the Liar-in-Chief said that he had defeated ISIS.

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MissMyGardens

Maddie AtHome "Whoa. That wasn't why I was asking this question--far be it from me."

Didn't mean response in accusatory manner but as I said it's a fraught question. I live in a highly ethnic mixed US state but people are still kind of in silos without knowing much about other religions or cultures. I was raised Catholic and the year before we moved into a "starter home" town the KKK had burned a cross on the first Catholic family's front lawn. My parents were city born and bred but wanted to buy first home in the mountains so their kids could breath fresh air! We were turned away from their first town choice because "Jews, Blacks and Catholics" weren't allowed and it stayed that way through the early 1980s. Blacks suffer bigotry just by looking at skin color and Jews still suffer from bigotry because of continued ugly conspiracy theories or just plain old exclusive nationalism. It flares from under the surface not infrequently.

After 9/11 some ignorant people didn't even know the difference between Sikhs and "Arabs" so more than a few Sikhs were attacked post 9/11. How insular people can be here...pure ignorance of other religions and cultures. I told them to just look at the turban folding for God's sake!

"I have a problem with dual citizenship in general, one cannot truly be loyal to two, or even more countries in my opinion."

I have enough trouble dealing with one country let alone adding another one to contend with...LOL.

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MissMyGardens

dockside_gw "A
NYT reprint in the Seattle Times today says, "Bolton, making a visit to
Israel, said that U.S. forces would remain in Syria until the last
remnants of the Islamic State group were defeated..."

Wait a minute. I thought the Liar-in-Chief said that he had defeated ISIS.

Right? Wondered how long it would take or even if followers would see irony in it.

If there's one thing we've learned for sure since 9/11 it's that "terrorist groups" are like mercury. Put pressure on one area and they easily slide into another. Same with their "lieutenants"...there's always another one waiting to take their place after we launch a drone attack.

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Maddie AtHome

Didn't mean response in accusatory manner but as I said it's a fraught question.

Oh good and yeah, I realise it's a fraught question.

...

Wait a minute. I thought the Liar-in-Chief said that he had defeated ISIS.

We knew all along that DAESH is not defeated yet.



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tony jelly

As compelling as your history of the forming of Israel is, you do not mention the Zionist input that I think is very important and this ommision is an error on your part.

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Annie Deighnaugh

Going to be interesting...bolton and israel want him to stay, but papa putin wants him to go...decisions...decisions....

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MissMyGardens

tony jelly "As compelling as your history of the forming of Israel is, you do not
mention the Zionist input that I think is very important and this
ommision is an error on your part."


tony, do you mean the eastern European movement in late 1800s? To be honest I wasn't consciously aware of how different aspects of Zionism are formally categorized until just now.

If you can explain more of what you want to discuss about Zionism I'd know better what you want me to address. To be honest I have trouble trying to keep track of the "ins and outs" of who claims what piece of land when and how boundaries for state of Israel have been delineated by both Western imposed lines, Israeli claims after territory gained by war, UN resolutions, etc.

To be honest I don't usually go back millennia for claims because ancestors of just about everyone claiming it as their historic land all lived on exact same small piece of land over the sands of time. Do we take claims from 100 years ago, 1,000 or 2,000 years? I just don't know and to be honest it doesn't matter to me in that respect. Both "sides" have enough centuries of living on same land for both to have claims to live there in whatever peaceful way they may someday agree upon. Poor non-Jews living on that small piece of land around 1948 were misled by their Arab "brothers" who told them they'd get their land and homes back. They're still living in camps around the area. Once they evacuated the people with power on the ground were Jewish.

Some zionists started their push to avoid assimilation in the diaspora. There are more reasons such as those in Russia and eastern Europe who were actively attacked and restricted for a long time before late 1800s inception of modern zionism. That alone struck some as perfect reason to find elsewhere where they could live and worship in their own way. I'm assuming natural place to decide upon was land they believe was promised to them in biblical texts. I'm not positive of all the religious texts they relied on as what I say is mostly from what I've gleaned over the years and a little reading when conversation calls for it.

Skipping forward to time of British Mandate and the West creating lines of modern Middle Eastern countries which did even more to create a hostile environment.

After WWII picks up where I addressed before.


[The common denominator among all Zionists is the claim to Eretz Israel as the national homeland of the Jews and as the legitimate focus for Jewish national self-determination.[23] It is based on historical ties and religious traditions linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel.[24] Zionism does not have a uniform ideology, but has evolved in a dialogue among a plethora of ideologies: General Zionism, Religious Zionism, Labor Zionism, Revisionist Zionism, Green Zionism, etc.

After almost two millennia of the Jewish diaspora residing in various countries without a national state, the Zionist movement was founded in the late 19th century by secular Jews, largely as a response by Ashkenazi Jews to rising antisemitism in Europe, exemplified by the Dreyfus affair in France and the anti-Jewish pogroms in the Russian Empire.[25] The political movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in 1897 following the publication of his book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State).[26] At that time, the movement sought to encourage Jewish migration to Ottoman Palestine.

"I believe that a wondrous generation of Jews will spring into existence. The Maccabeans
will rise again. Let me repeat once more my opening words: The Jews who wish for a State will have it. We shall live at last as free men on our own soil, and die peacefully in our own homes. The world will be freed by our liberty, enriched by our wealth, magnified by our greatness. And whatever we attempt there to accomplish for our own welfare, will react
powerfully and beneficially for the good of humanity."

Theodore Herzl, concluding words of The Jewish State, 1896[27]

Although initially one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to assimilation and antisemitism, Zionism expanded rapidly. In its early stages, supporters considered setting up a Jewish state in the historic territory of Palestine. After World War II
and the destruction of Jewish life in Central and Eastern Europe where these alternative movements were rooted, it became dominant in the thinking about a Jewish national state.]

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sableincal

"How many congress critters hold dual US American-Israeli citizenship again?"

This bit of bile comes from a variety of anti-Semitic sites. Invariably, after listing every senator and congressperson who is Jewish as being an Israeli citizen, the site goes on to rant about Rothschild money running the world. Years ago I was spammed with emails making this claim and even had non-Jewish friends who wanted to know if this was true, as they were also being spammed.

It's been a long time since some hater brought up this lie. I can't believe that it has surfaced again.

You don't become an Israeli citizen automatically just because you are Jewish and go to Israel. You have to declare intent. There, in Israel. Please find out, on a person-by-person basis, which congressperson has done this.

Am stunned by someone going to these wretched sites, believing the carp that they contain, and actually posting it. Again.


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MissMyGardens

sableincal: "It's been a long time since some hater brought up this lie. I can't believe that it has surfaced again."

I didn't know it was a question until I read that Diane Rhem of NPR actually stated in question to Bernie Sanders that he "was" a dual citizen with Israel. Bernie couldn't believe she'd stated it as fact given NPR and Rhem are supposed to be better informed and I understand why he was upset by the question.

I also didn't know it was a "thing" among the conspiracy theorists and other ugly sites. I mean how many conspiracies can you make up about one group? A lot evidently. When I searched net for topic I found that one site claiming it was 89 with dual citizenship. Normal people would know that was blatantly untrue but then you ask yourself why someone would dedicate web sites to this stuff. I refuse to link those sites here or anywhere.

I tried as best I could to distinguish Right to Return vs dual citizenship. Not being Jewish myself I don't know all the pertinent citations but my two best friends being Jewish I've picked up a lot over 30+ years.

You know, no matter how much I've learned about Judaism and Jewish culture I can't really understand how it feels like a constantly reappearing dig or slight since I'm not Jewish....but it makes me very sad.

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sableincal

MissMyGardens - I remember that incident with Rehm questioning Bernie Sanders; she had actually read the "list" and believed it. The inclination to believe the "worst" about Jews and Israel is damning, I think. But this being NPR - and Hot Topics - not surprising.

I am always interested in what the BDS movement targets in terms of Israeli creations, inventions, and products. I've never seen anyone boycott, e.g., the large number of generic medications manufactured by Teva Pharmaceuticals (Israeli). We like our cheap, effective meds! Never seen anyone brag about tossing out a high tech product invented in Israel (the cell phone, e.g., for Motorola). Never heard of a single person refusing to use products by Microsoft, Apple, H-P, Dell, Cisco, ad infinitum, all having research facilities in Israel.

Nope, BDSers go after things they don't actually need - like seltzer drinks, hummus, and face cream.

I think that, regarding dual citizenship, most countries have their own rules and regulations, but overlook situations that are agreeable to all the parties involved. I always thought that the U.S. did not tolerate dual citizenship and that you had to hand over any foreign passports. Not true! We tolerate "duality" in many instances. My XH, for instance, is a citizen of Britain, Israel, and last but not least the U.S. (by immigration). I looked for a site that would explain all our own regs, but the rules are so complex that I gave up. It appears that as globalization becomes more powerful, people who are actually citizens of the world are welcomed everywhere.

You are very sad about anti-Semitism. Me too. But it is always with us, somewhere or other. We combat it with, among other things, humor. Living in Israel I learned not to be shocked by Holocaust jokes. Sample:

Nazi, to Jewish guy in line: "You go to the left."

Jewish guy: "Not to the showers!"

Nazi: "You go to the left."

Jewish guy: "But you don't understand! I'm innocent!"

Israelis fall on the floor laughing. Black humor helps them survive.

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